Curiosity File

How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« on: November 16, 2018, 05:47:27 AM »
Clearly during eclipse the Earth gets between the Moon and Sun and the Moon gets between the Sun and Earth.
Three questions.
 how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?
#3 Sun between Moon & Earth? Oh wait, that never happens. So the question should be,
Why not? 

 

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2018, 06:28:34 AM »
Clearly during eclipse the Earth gets between the Moon and Sun and the Moon gets between the Sun and Earth.
Three questions.
 how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?
#3 Sun between Moon & Earth? Oh wait, that never happens. So the question should be,
Why not? 

 
1 Earth doesn't get between moon and sun. Lunar eclipse is caused by a "shadow object" orbiting close to the sun.
2 Same basic idea as on a round Earth.
2 Paths simply don't cross.

Curiosity File

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2018, 07:24:43 AM »
Clearly during eclipse the Earth gets between the Moon and Sun and the Moon gets between the Sun and Earth.
Three questions.
 how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?
#3 Sun between Moon & Earth? Oh wait, that never happens. So the question should be,
Why not? 

 
1 Earth doesn't get between moon and sun. Lunar eclipse is caused by a "shadow object" orbiting close to the sun.
2 Same basic idea as on a round Earth.
2 Paths simply don't cross.

That's not the question or what was implied. The Earth and Moon absolutely don't cross the suns path. However at some point the the Moon crosses the Earths path and the Earth crosses the Moons path. But that's not what's taking place during eclipse conditions.
However on FET models that adhere to the UA theory the Sun and the Moon are always directly in the path of the Earth.

So no, no paths are crossed during eclipse. Simply put one celestial body must come directly between the other two in  order to create the phenomena we witness during total lunar and solar eclipse.
My question is does FET have a model that shows how eclipse work when the Sun and Moon are 3,000 miles above the the earth circling overhead? Specifically how the "EARTH" comes between the Moon and Sun to create a lunar eclipse?
My 2nd question is why don't we see the Sun getting between the Earth and Moon, EVER?     

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2018, 01:36:25 PM »
Clearly during eclipse the Earth gets between the Moon and Sun and the Moon gets between the Sun and Earth.
Three questions.
 how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?
#3 Sun between Moon & Earth? Oh wait, that never happens. So the question should be,
Why not? 

 
1 Earth doesn't get between moon and sun. Lunar eclipse is caused by a "shadow object" orbiting close to the sun.
2 Same basic idea as on a round Earth.
2 Paths simply don't cross.

That's not the question or what was implied. The Earth and Moon absolutely don't cross the suns path. However at some point the the Moon crosses the Earths path and the Earth crosses the Moons path. But that's not what's taking place during eclipse conditions.
However on FET models that adhere to the UA theory the Sun and the Moon are always directly in the path of the Earth.

So no, no paths are crossed during eclipse. Simply put one celestial body must come directly between the other two in  order to create the phenomena we witness during total lunar and solar eclipse.
My question is does FET have a model that shows how eclipse work when the Sun and Moon are 3,000 miles above the the earth circling overhead? Specifically how the "EARTH" comes between the Moon and Sun to create a lunar eclipse?
My 2nd question is why don't we see the Sun getting between the Earth and Moon, EVER?   
I answered your first question. The Earth doesn't come between the sun and the moon during a lunar eclipse. The shadow object does. https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Lunar_Eclipse https://wiki.tfes.org/The_shadow_on_the_moon_during_a_Lunar_Eclipse_is_round

The second is simply because their paths through the sky over the Earth never coincide like that. I'm sorry if that's not very satisfactory to you, but that's the answer. Put another way I suppose would be that the FEH doesn't know.

Offline JCM

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2018, 02:15:12 PM »
The moon can be seen tracking across the sky day to day perfectly predictable correct?  We can make a table of where the moon will be at least monthly  from hour to hour and it WILL be there. We can see its phases as it approaches the new moon, the moon is still there, we can see earth shine lighting up the non sunlit portion frequently. Then on solar eclipse day, directly where we would track the moon from the days before, and then the days after, we are supposed to believe a mythical shadow object blocks the sun....?  Where was the moon in that time? Why is the moon which we can clearly see even getting nearer to the sun on a FE model the moon looks to be always chasing the sun?

This is such an easy killer of the FE theory/“model”.

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2018, 02:31:57 PM »
The moon can be seen tracking across the sky day to day perfectly predictable correct?  We can make a table of where the moon will be at least monthly  from hour to hour and it WILL be there. We can see its phases as it approaches the new moon, the moon is still there, we can see earth shine lighting up the non sunlit portion frequently. Then on solar eclipse day, directly where we would track the moon from the days before, and then the days after, we are supposed to believe a mythical shadow object blocks the sun....?  Where was the moon in that time? Why is the moon which we can clearly see even getting nearer to the sun on a FE model the moon looks to be always chasing the sun?

This is such an easy killer of the FE theory/“model”.
What? There's no 'shadow object' when it comes to a solar ecplise (except for one right wacko on the other site). The shadow object only explains the lunar eclipse. Apologies, I'll correct my last post as it looks like I wasn't paying enough attention when I wrote it, although both of the sources I linked to referred to a lunar eclipse so....

MattyWS

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2018, 03:31:08 PM »
The moon can be seen tracking across the sky day to day perfectly predictable correct?  We can make a table of where the moon will be at least monthly  from hour to hour and it WILL be there. We can see its phases as it approaches the new moon, the moon is still there, we can see earth shine lighting up the non sunlit portion frequently. Then on solar eclipse day, directly where we would track the moon from the days before, and then the days after, we are supposed to believe a mythical shadow object blocks the sun....?  Where was the moon in that time? Why is the moon which we can clearly see even getting nearer to the sun on a FE model the moon looks to be always chasing the sun?

This is such an easy killer of the FE theory/“model”.
What? There's no 'shadow object' when it comes to a solar ecplise (except for one right wacko on the other site). The shadow object only explains the lunar eclipse. Apologies, I'll correct my last post as it looks like I wasn't paying enough attention when I wrote it, although both of the sources I linked to referred to a lunar eclipse so....
As it goes both ways, we can accurately track and predict when and where the sun will be in the sky months in advance, during a lunar eclipse we know where the sun will be (and for people on the other side of the world who can confirm where the sun will be) using the globe earth model those same predictions put the earth between the sun and moon. Why can we not spot and track this shadow object to confirm it's existence on a flat earth model?

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2018, 03:40:05 PM »
The moon can be seen tracking across the sky day to day perfectly predictable correct?  We can make a table of where the moon will be at least monthly  from hour to hour and it WILL be there. We can see its phases as it approaches the new moon, the moon is still there, we can see earth shine lighting up the non sunlit portion frequently. Then on solar eclipse day, directly where we would track the moon from the days before, and then the days after, we are supposed to believe a mythical shadow object blocks the sun....?  Where was the moon in that time? Why is the moon which we can clearly see even getting nearer to the sun on a FE model the moon looks to be always chasing the sun?

This is such an easy killer of the FE theory/“model”.
What? There's no 'shadow object' when it comes to a solar ecplise (except for one right wacko on the other site). The shadow object only explains the lunar eclipse. Apologies, I'll correct my last post as it looks like I wasn't paying enough attention when I wrote it, although both of the sources I linked to referred to a lunar eclipse so....
As it goes both ways, we can accurately track and predict when and where the sun will be in the sky months in advance, during a lunar eclipse we know where the sun will be (and for people on the other side of the world who can confirm where the sun will be) using the globe earth model those same predictions put the earth between the sun and moon. Why can we not spot and track this shadow object to confirm it's existence on a flat earth model?
Because special pleading and ad hoc answers. Seriously, I'm not an FE guy. But you won't disprove the shadow object idea that produces the lunar eclipse, for the same reason you can't prove God doesn't exist. The shadow object is a natural result of the Earth being a flat plane, and the sun and moon always being above it. That means something must get between the sun and the moon to produce a lunar eclipse. Ergo, shadow object. The evidence for it is the shadow on the moon which we know can't be the Earth. So that proves something else is up there getting in between the sun and the moon.

MattyWS

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2018, 03:50:14 PM »
If something is getting between the sun and moon, both of which we can track and accurately place in the sky at all times from earth, then for an object to cast a shadow on the moon has to be directly between the sun somewhere, which should be easy to track too since it'll be a linear line. The problem here is for something to cast a shadow it has to block or reflect the light from the sun, which would mean it would be visible or clearly blocking anything behind it from our view, so in theory we could see the shadow object in the sky (or just not see behind it, which would still make a visible effect in it's place).

If we should clearly be able to see the object then why has no one seen it yet? And if it does not exist as far as we can see, then surely there must be an object we can see that is causing the shadow instead, which would be the earth in round earth logic, since we can accurately track and predict the earths movements around the sun and the moons movements around the earth in this method.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 03:54:02 PM by MattyWS »

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2018, 05:02:20 PM »
If something is getting between the sun and moon, both of which we can track and accurately place in the sky at all times from earth, then for an object to cast a shadow on the moon has to be directly between the sun somewhere, which should be easy to track too since it'll be a linear line. The problem here is for something to cast a shadow it has to block or reflect the light from the sun, which would mean it would be visible or clearly blocking anything behind it from our view, so in theory we could see the shadow object in the sky (or just not see behind it, which would still make a visible effect in it's place).

If we should clearly be able to see the object then why has no one seen it yet? And if it does not exist as far as we can see, then surely there must be an object we can see that is causing the shadow instead, which would be the earth in round earth logic, since we can accurately track and predict the earths movements around the sun and the moons movements around the earth in this method.
Why do you think we should be able to clearly see the object? It's orbiting the sun, the brightness of the sun drowns it out. You can't see the stars during the day can you? Why would you be able to see an object that doesn't produce or reflect any light?

MattyWS

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2018, 05:40:44 PM »
If something is getting between the sun and moon, both of which we can track and accurately place in the sky at all times from earth, then for an object to cast a shadow on the moon has to be directly between the sun somewhere, which should be easy to track too since it'll be a linear line. The problem here is for something to cast a shadow it has to block or reflect the light from the sun, which would mean it would be visible or clearly blocking anything behind it from our view, so in theory we could see the shadow object in the sky (or just not see behind it, which would still make a visible effect in it's place).

If we should clearly be able to see the object then why has no one seen it yet? And if it does not exist as far as we can see, then surely there must be an object we can see that is causing the shadow instead, which would be the earth in round earth logic, since we can accurately track and predict the earths movements around the sun and the moons movements around the earth in this method.
Why do you think we should be able to clearly see the object? It's orbiting the sun, the brightness of the sun drowns it out. You can't see the stars during the day can you? Why would you be able to see an object that doesn't produce or reflect any light?
First, With that logic how can you see the moon during the day? Heck how can you see anything during the day if the suns light 'drowns' everything out visibly? The sun emits light, which travels and bounces off surfaces and into our eyes, without the sun we cannot see anything.

Second (but not important), you can see some stars during the day.

Third, this object would theoretically somehwere between the moon and the sun so it'd need to be big enough and pretty close to the earth so it'd be a pretty big, close object which we'd be able to see.

fourth if it's somewhere between the sun and the moon then what's to say we can only try looking for it during the day time? The lunar eclipse happens visibly at night after all.

fifth, lets say there's the possibility the this object is right next to the the surface of the sun and it's pretty tiny, it's still going to be visible when we look or around at the sun (through filters obviously otherwise we'll go blind).

It would definitely be visible in the sky to us, either by eye or by magnification (telescope) and since no one has found or seen it yet, how can it exist? How is it possible that people use such logic against round earth by saying "no one has seen the earth being round, I haven't seen it with my own eyes, I can only visibly see flat surface so it MUST be flat" while also saying "there's an invisible object in the sky no one can see that somehow still casts a shadow despite being totally invisible".

I guess, why is it plausible to have a magic invisible yet solid object in the sky that no one can see that causes lunar eclipse yet completely implausible that the earth is between the sun and moon causing the eclipse? Something proven by maths to be the case if the earth is a spheroid orbiting the sun.

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2018, 06:35:49 PM »
Because we know it's there because lunar eclipses happen. You can't see the oxygen you breathe can you? Something creates a shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse. It can't be the Earth under the FEH. So it has to be something else. The most likely explanation is an object we've yet to see or notice. This could be orbiting the sun close in, or any of a number of other places. Although personally I think it would have to be close to the sun, made of a material with a very low reflective index, and possibly be flat itself. Like a disk circling the sun. But I'm not sure what the main idea is concerning the shape/form of the shadow object tbh.

MattyWS

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2018, 06:54:44 PM »
Indeed you can't physically see oxygen, oxygen also doesn't cast shadows either, I'll say again something cannot be invisible and also cast a shadow.

I'll also mention (and this won't have anything to do with flat or spheroid earth) just seeing a shadow doesn't mean there has to be a new mystery object casting it, there is no correlation between the two ideas, much like how I know for example earthquakes exist, we can see the effect of earthquakes, but that doesn't mean there's some magical monster underground stomping his feet causing said earthquakes. Why would anyone immediately jump to that conclusion? The idea of a magical monster has no connection to earthquakes just as magical sky objects have no connection to a lunar eclipse.

Also how would this magical object orbit the Sun if there is no gravity according to FEH?

With that said though, as it's hard to know what causes gravity in the spheroid earth, is still a bit of a mystery to scientists, I can see my argument could also be used against me there. Maybe there is a magical gravity monster invisibly pulling everything together with its millions of arms. But I don't think so. Until someone proves the gravity monster exists, it remains unknown how it works I guess.

Either way we know how light works and there is no possible explain for an invisible shadow object. We would have seen it by now.

Curiosity File

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2018, 09:43:57 PM »
Two important facts in this equation.
#Stars in the sky don't disappear because of sun light. There is no separation of night and say beyond earth's atmosphere and stars and planets are visible 7/24.
 It's the effect sunlight has on earths atmosphere that makes it hard to see stars during the day.
#2 The Moon passes in front of the sun during a solar eclipse. How do we know? Because we watch it happen and its mathematically calculated.
The same way we calculate solar eclipse we calculate lunar eclipse and we watch it happen perfectly timed to the calculation.
Why would we think there's something else in the sky causing this phenomena when we can so precisely calculate the events and physically observe them?
If the sun and moon were only 3,000 miles away like FET claims,  and there was something else up there getting between the sun and moon I'm 100% positive we would have detected by now.
So that's not it. FET has to come up with, once again, another model that explains how this works on FE, which I'm sure will cause another FE model to fail. 

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2018, 09:57:01 PM »
Congrats, you've found what I have always seen as the major issue with the idea of a shadow object. But you can post 'we should see it' until you're blue in the face and it won't really matter. For the FEH the shadow object is rooted in observation. An object that is circular in nature moves between the sun and the moon during a lunar eclipse. Ergo, something we can't see/detect at present much be up there doing this.

Also remember, Astronomy is based on patterns, not model predictions (according to FEH) so the fact that we can predict it is irrelevant. Of course we can predict it, so can the FEH by following the pattern.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2018, 10:00:45 PM »
Two important facts in this equation.
#Stars in the sky don't disappear because of sun light. There is no separation of night and say beyond earth's atmosphere and stars and planets are visible 7/24.
 It's the effect sunlight has on earths atmosphere that makes it hard to see stars during the day.
#2 The Moon passes in front of the sun during a solar eclipse. How do we know? Because we watch it happen and its mathematically calculated.
The same way we calculate solar eclipse we calculate lunar eclipse and we watch it happen perfectly timed to the calculation.
Why would we think there's something else in the sky causing this phenomena when we can so precisely calculate the events and physically observe them?
If the sun and moon were only 3,000 miles away like FET claims,  and there was something else up there getting between the sun and moon I'm 100% positive we would have detected by now.
So that's not it. FET has to come up with, once again, another model that explains how this works on FE, which I'm sure will cause another FE model to fail.

The eclipses aren't being solved on the basis of the three body problem of the Sun-Earth-Moon system. General applications of the Three Body Problem are, in fact, impossible. Only very few and limited versions of the Three Body Problem can be solved.

The eclipses are being predicted based on patterns of previous eclipses, just like how Aristotle and the Ancient Babylonians did it. They could predict the eclipses thousands of years into the future.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Curiosity File

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2018, 10:15:18 PM »
Two important facts in this equation.
#Stars in the sky don't disappear because of sun light. There is no separation of night and say beyond earth's atmosphere and stars and planets are visible 7/24.
 It's the effect sunlight has on earths atmosphere that makes it hard to see stars during the day.
#2 The Moon passes in front of the sun during a solar eclipse. How do we know? Because we watch it happen and its mathematically calculated.
The same way we calculate solar eclipse we calculate lunar eclipse and we watch it happen perfectly timed to the calculation.
Why would we think there's something else in the sky causing this phenomena when we can so precisely calculate the events and physically observe them?
If the sun and moon were only 3,000 miles away like FET claims,  and there was something else up there getting between the sun and moon I'm 100% positive we would have detected by now.
So that's not it. FET has to come up with, once again, another model that explains how this works on FE, which I'm sure will cause another FE model to fail.

The eclipses aren't being solved on the basis of the three body problem of the Sun-Earth-Moon system. General applications of the Three Body Problem are, in fact, impossible. Only very few and limited versions of the Three Body Problem can be solved.

The eclipses are being predicted based on patterns of previous eclipses, just like how Aristotle and the Ancient Babylonians did it. They could predict the eclipses thousands of years into the future.
I assume you're referring to FET when saying, " General application of the Three Body Problem are, in fact, impossible". Because in this day and age it's very simple.
"They could predict the eclipses thousands of years into the future". This statement is contradiction of the former. ???   

Curiosity File

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2018, 10:22:34 PM »
Two important facts in this equation.
#Stars in the sky don't disappear because of sun light. There is no separation of night and say beyond earth's atmosphere and stars and planets are visible 7/24.
 It's the effect sunlight has on earths atmosphere that makes it hard to see stars during the day.
#2 The Moon passes in front of the sun during a solar eclipse. How do we know? Because we watch it happen and its mathematically calculated.
The same way we calculate solar eclipse we calculate lunar eclipse and we watch it happen perfectly timed to the calculation.
Why would we think there's something else in the sky causing this phenomena when we can so precisely calculate the events and physically observe them?
If the sun and moon were only 3,000 miles away like FET claims,  and there was something else up there getting between the sun and moon I'm 100% positive we would have detected by now.
So that's not it. FET has to come up with, once again, another model that explains how this works on FE, which I'm sure will cause another FE model to fail.

The eclipses aren't being solved on the basis of the three body problem of the Sun-Earth-Moon system. General applications of the Three Body Problem are, in fact, impossible. Only very few and limited versions of the Three Body Problem can be solved.

The eclipses are being predicted based on patterns of previous eclipses, just like how Aristotle and the Ancient Babylonians did it. They could predict the eclipses thousands of years into the future.
I assume you're referring to FET when saying, " General application of the Three Body Problem are, in fact, impossible". Because in this day and age it's very simple.
"They could predict the eclipses thousands of years into the future". This statement is contradiction of the former. ???
They also threw out the FET, is how the predicted eclipse into the future. There were NO invisible body's casting shadows in ancients theories and predictions of how eclipse works.   

MattyWS

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2018, 10:29:51 PM »
An object that is circular in nature moves between the sun and the moon during a lunar eclipse.
I know it's beside the point so far but I'm sure once FE'ers come to realise it could actually be the earth causing the shadow on the moon I can just see them shouting "but it's a circular shadow so the earth must be a disk!". Casting a circular shadow doesn't have to be a disk though, the object in question could also be cylindrical, cone, spherical or even a rhombicosidodecahedron. The chances are though, since we've observed moons and planets to be spherical it's safe to say what ever the object is, is most likely also spherical.

We have 3D simulations of solar systems using the maths that predict the movement of celestial bodies, we can use these 3D simulations to show the earth being between the sun and moon and casting the shadow. Can anyone here run 3D a simulation of a flat earth version of a lunar eclipse while predicting celestial bodies time and locations perfectly?

Here's a few cool ones I found, just for fun

https://theskylive.com/3dsolarsystem
http://project-metis.com/SolarSystem/
https://www.solarsystemscope.com/


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2018, 10:30:52 PM »
Quote
I assume you're referring to FET when saying, " General application of the Three Body Problem are, in fact, impossible". Because in this day and age it's very simple.

"They could predict the eclipses thousands of years into the future". This statement is contradiction of the former. ???

Prediction of three or more orbiting bodies under the Newtonian System is impossible. Literally impossible. It is one of the greatest problems of astronomy, mathematics, and classical mechanics. They can't get the heliocentric system to work.

Take a look at the existing Three Body Problem solutions. The bodies are either all of the same mass, or some of them are mass-less. The applications are very limited.

The famous physicist Henri Poincare studied the Three Body Problem. Here is a quote from 'Mathematics Applied to Deterministic Problems in Natural Sciences' about Poincare's discoveries:

Quote
As Poincare experimented, he was relieved to discover that in most of the situations, the possible orbits varied only slightly from the initial 2-body orbit, and were still stable, but what occurred during further experimentation was a shock. Poincare discovered that even in some of the smallest approximations some orbits behaved in an erratic unstable manner. His calculations showed that even a minute gravitational pull from a third body might cause a planet to wobble and fly out of orbit all together.

The available solutions to the Three Body Problem, beyond looking unlike anything seen in Heliocentric Theory, are so sensitive that the slightest change or imperfection will tear the entire system apart. As a very illustrative demonstration, take a look at this online Three Body Problem simulator that uses the simplest possible figure eight pattern, which requires three identical bodies of equal mass that move at very specific momentum and distance in relation to each other.

Demo: Figure-Eight Three Body Problem



Adjust the slider values in the upper left to something very slight to find what happens. What you will see is a demonstration of Chaos Theory. Any slight modification to the system creates a chain reaction of random chaos.

This is precisely the issue of modeling the Heliocentric System, and why the fundamental systems as depicted in popular astronomy cannot exist. Only very specific and very sensitive configurations may exist. The slightest deviation, such as with a system with unequal masses, or the minute influence from a gravitating body external to the system will, as Poincare found, cause the entire system to fly apart!
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 10:49:29 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy