# The Flat Earth Society

## Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Curiosity File on November 16, 2018, 05:47:27 AM

Title: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 16, 2018, 05:47:27 AM
Clearly during eclipse the Earth gets between the Moon and Sun and the Moon gets between the Sun and Earth.
Three questions.
how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?
#3 Sun between Moon & Earth? Oh wait, that never happens. So the question should be,
Why not?

Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 16, 2018, 06:28:34 AM
Clearly during eclipse the Earth gets between the Moon and Sun and the Moon gets between the Sun and Earth.
Three questions.
how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?
#3 Sun between Moon & Earth? Oh wait, that never happens. So the question should be,
Why not?

1 Earth doesn't get between moon and sun. Lunar eclipse is caused by a "shadow object" orbiting close to the sun.
2 Same basic idea as on a round Earth.
2 Paths simply don't cross.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 16, 2018, 07:24:43 AM
Clearly during eclipse the Earth gets between the Moon and Sun and the Moon gets between the Sun and Earth.
Three questions.
how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?
#3 Sun between Moon & Earth? Oh wait, that never happens. So the question should be,
Why not?

1 Earth doesn't get between moon and sun. Lunar eclipse is caused by a "shadow object" orbiting close to the sun.
2 Same basic idea as on a round Earth.
2 Paths simply don't cross.

That's not the question or what was implied. The Earth and Moon absolutely don't cross the suns path. However at some point the the Moon crosses the Earths path and the Earth crosses the Moons path. But that's not what's taking place during eclipse conditions.
However on FET models that adhere to the UA theory the Sun and the Moon are always directly in the path of the Earth.

So no, no paths are crossed during eclipse. Simply put one celestial body must come directly between the other two in  order to create the phenomena we witness during total lunar and solar eclipse.
My question is does FET have a model that shows how eclipse work when the Sun and Moon are 3,000 miles above the the earth circling overhead? Specifically how the "EARTH" comes between the Moon and Sun to create a lunar eclipse?
My 2nd question is why don't we see the Sun getting between the Earth and Moon, EVER?
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 16, 2018, 01:36:25 PM
Clearly during eclipse the Earth gets between the Moon and Sun and the Moon gets between the Sun and Earth.
Three questions.
how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?
#3 Sun between Moon & Earth? Oh wait, that never happens. So the question should be,
Why not?

1 Earth doesn't get between moon and sun. Lunar eclipse is caused by a "shadow object" orbiting close to the sun.
2 Same basic idea as on a round Earth.
2 Paths simply don't cross.

That's not the question or what was implied. The Earth and Moon absolutely don't cross the suns path. However at some point the the Moon crosses the Earths path and the Earth crosses the Moons path. But that's not what's taking place during eclipse conditions.
However on FET models that adhere to the UA theory the Sun and the Moon are always directly in the path of the Earth.

So no, no paths are crossed during eclipse. Simply put one celestial body must come directly between the other two in  order to create the phenomena we witness during total lunar and solar eclipse.
My question is does FET have a model that shows how eclipse work when the Sun and Moon are 3,000 miles above the the earth circling overhead? Specifically how the "EARTH" comes between the Moon and Sun to create a lunar eclipse?
My 2nd question is why don't we see the Sun getting between the Earth and Moon, EVER?
I answered your first question. The Earth doesn't come between the sun and the moon during a lunar eclipse. The shadow object does. https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Lunar_Eclipse https://wiki.tfes.org/The_shadow_on_the_moon_during_a_Lunar_Eclipse_is_round

The second is simply because their paths through the sky over the Earth never coincide like that. I'm sorry if that's not very satisfactory to you, but that's the answer. Put another way I suppose would be that the FEH doesn't know.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: JCM on November 16, 2018, 02:15:12 PM
The moon can be seen tracking across the sky day to day perfectly predictable correct?  We can make a table of where the moon will be at least monthly  from hour to hour and it WILL be there. We can see its phases as it approaches the new moon, the moon is still there, we can see earth shine lighting up the non sunlit portion frequently. Then on solar eclipse day, directly where we would track the moon from the days before, and then the days after, we are supposed to believe a mythical shadow object blocks the sun....?  Where was the moon in that time? Why is the moon which we can clearly see even getting nearer to the sun on a FE model the moon looks to be always chasing the sun?

This is such an easy killer of the FE theory/“model”.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 16, 2018, 02:31:57 PM
The moon can be seen tracking across the sky day to day perfectly predictable correct?  We can make a table of where the moon will be at least monthly  from hour to hour and it WILL be there. We can see its phases as it approaches the new moon, the moon is still there, we can see earth shine lighting up the non sunlit portion frequently. Then on solar eclipse day, directly where we would track the moon from the days before, and then the days after, we are supposed to believe a mythical shadow object blocks the sun....?  Where was the moon in that time? Why is the moon which we can clearly see even getting nearer to the sun on a FE model the moon looks to be always chasing the sun?

This is such an easy killer of the FE theory/“model”.
What? There's no 'shadow object' when it comes to a solar ecplise (except for one right wacko on the other site). The shadow object only explains the lunar eclipse. Apologies, I'll correct my last post as it looks like I wasn't paying enough attention when I wrote it, although both of the sources I linked to referred to a lunar eclipse so....
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: MattyWS on November 16, 2018, 03:31:08 PM
The moon can be seen tracking across the sky day to day perfectly predictable correct?  We can make a table of where the moon will be at least monthly  from hour to hour and it WILL be there. We can see its phases as it approaches the new moon, the moon is still there, we can see earth shine lighting up the non sunlit portion frequently. Then on solar eclipse day, directly where we would track the moon from the days before, and then the days after, we are supposed to believe a mythical shadow object blocks the sun....?  Where was the moon in that time? Why is the moon which we can clearly see even getting nearer to the sun on a FE model the moon looks to be always chasing the sun?

This is such an easy killer of the FE theory/“model”.
What? There's no 'shadow object' when it comes to a solar ecplise (except for one right wacko on the other site). The shadow object only explains the lunar eclipse. Apologies, I'll correct my last post as it looks like I wasn't paying enough attention when I wrote it, although both of the sources I linked to referred to a lunar eclipse so....
As it goes both ways, we can accurately track and predict when and where the sun will be in the sky months in advance, during a lunar eclipse we know where the sun will be (and for people on the other side of the world who can confirm where the sun will be) using the globe earth model those same predictions put the earth between the sun and moon. Why can we not spot and track this shadow object to confirm it's existence on a flat earth model?
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 16, 2018, 03:40:05 PM
The moon can be seen tracking across the sky day to day perfectly predictable correct?  We can make a table of where the moon will be at least monthly  from hour to hour and it WILL be there. We can see its phases as it approaches the new moon, the moon is still there, we can see earth shine lighting up the non sunlit portion frequently. Then on solar eclipse day, directly where we would track the moon from the days before, and then the days after, we are supposed to believe a mythical shadow object blocks the sun....?  Where was the moon in that time? Why is the moon which we can clearly see even getting nearer to the sun on a FE model the moon looks to be always chasing the sun?

This is such an easy killer of the FE theory/“model”.
What? There's no 'shadow object' when it comes to a solar ecplise (except for one right wacko on the other site). The shadow object only explains the lunar eclipse. Apologies, I'll correct my last post as it looks like I wasn't paying enough attention when I wrote it, although both of the sources I linked to referred to a lunar eclipse so....
As it goes both ways, we can accurately track and predict when and where the sun will be in the sky months in advance, during a lunar eclipse we know where the sun will be (and for people on the other side of the world who can confirm where the sun will be) using the globe earth model those same predictions put the earth between the sun and moon. Why can we not spot and track this shadow object to confirm it's existence on a flat earth model?
Because special pleading and ad hoc answers. Seriously, I'm not an FE guy. But you won't disprove the shadow object idea that produces the lunar eclipse, for the same reason you can't prove God doesn't exist. The shadow object is a natural result of the Earth being a flat plane, and the sun and moon always being above it. That means something must get between the sun and the moon to produce a lunar eclipse. Ergo, shadow object. The evidence for it is the shadow on the moon which we know can't be the Earth. So that proves something else is up there getting in between the sun and the moon.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: MattyWS on November 16, 2018, 03:50:14 PM
If something is getting between the sun and moon, both of which we can track and accurately place in the sky at all times from earth, then for an object to cast a shadow on the moon has to be directly between the sun somewhere, which should be easy to track too since it'll be a linear line. The problem here is for something to cast a shadow it has to block or reflect the light from the sun, which would mean it would be visible or clearly blocking anything behind it from our view, so in theory we could see the shadow object in the sky (or just not see behind it, which would still make a visible effect in it's place).

If we should clearly be able to see the object then why has no one seen it yet? And if it does not exist as far as we can see, then surely there must be an object we can see that is causing the shadow instead, which would be the earth in round earth logic, since we can accurately track and predict the earths movements around the sun and the moons movements around the earth in this method.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 16, 2018, 05:02:20 PM
If something is getting between the sun and moon, both of which we can track and accurately place in the sky at all times from earth, then for an object to cast a shadow on the moon has to be directly between the sun somewhere, which should be easy to track too since it'll be a linear line. The problem here is for something to cast a shadow it has to block or reflect the light from the sun, which would mean it would be visible or clearly blocking anything behind it from our view, so in theory we could see the shadow object in the sky (or just not see behind it, which would still make a visible effect in it's place).

If we should clearly be able to see the object then why has no one seen it yet? And if it does not exist as far as we can see, then surely there must be an object we can see that is causing the shadow instead, which would be the earth in round earth logic, since we can accurately track and predict the earths movements around the sun and the moons movements around the earth in this method.
Why do you think we should be able to clearly see the object? It's orbiting the sun, the brightness of the sun drowns it out. You can't see the stars during the day can you? Why would you be able to see an object that doesn't produce or reflect any light?
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: MattyWS on November 16, 2018, 05:40:44 PM
If something is getting between the sun and moon, both of which we can track and accurately place in the sky at all times from earth, then for an object to cast a shadow on the moon has to be directly between the sun somewhere, which should be easy to track too since it'll be a linear line. The problem here is for something to cast a shadow it has to block or reflect the light from the sun, which would mean it would be visible or clearly blocking anything behind it from our view, so in theory we could see the shadow object in the sky (or just not see behind it, which would still make a visible effect in it's place).

If we should clearly be able to see the object then why has no one seen it yet? And if it does not exist as far as we can see, then surely there must be an object we can see that is causing the shadow instead, which would be the earth in round earth logic, since we can accurately track and predict the earths movements around the sun and the moons movements around the earth in this method.
Why do you think we should be able to clearly see the object? It's orbiting the sun, the brightness of the sun drowns it out. You can't see the stars during the day can you? Why would you be able to see an object that doesn't produce or reflect any light?
First, With that logic how can you see the moon during the day? Heck how can you see anything during the day if the suns light 'drowns' everything out visibly? The sun emits light, which travels and bounces off surfaces and into our eyes, without the sun we cannot see anything.

Second (but not important), you can see some stars during the day.

Third, this object would theoretically somehwere between the moon and the sun so it'd need to be big enough and pretty close to the earth so it'd be a pretty big, close object which we'd be able to see.

fourth if it's somewhere between the sun and the moon then what's to say we can only try looking for it during the day time? The lunar eclipse happens visibly at night after all.

fifth, lets say there's the possibility the this object is right next to the the surface of the sun and it's pretty tiny, it's still going to be visible when we look or around at the sun (through filters obviously otherwise we'll go blind).

It would definitely be visible in the sky to us, either by eye or by magnification (telescope) and since no one has found or seen it yet, how can it exist? How is it possible that people use such logic against round earth by saying "no one has seen the earth being round, I haven't seen it with my own eyes, I can only visibly see flat surface so it MUST be flat" while also saying "there's an invisible object in the sky no one can see that somehow still casts a shadow despite being totally invisible".

I guess, why is it plausible to have a magic invisible yet solid object in the sky that no one can see that causes lunar eclipse yet completely implausible that the earth is between the sun and moon causing the eclipse? Something proven by maths to be the case if the earth is a spheroid orbiting the sun.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 16, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
Because we know it's there because lunar eclipses happen. You can't see the oxygen you breathe can you? Something creates a shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse. It can't be the Earth under the FEH. So it has to be something else. The most likely explanation is an object we've yet to see or notice. This could be orbiting the sun close in, or any of a number of other places. Although personally I think it would have to be close to the sun, made of a material with a very low reflective index, and possibly be flat itself. Like a disk circling the sun. But I'm not sure what the main idea is concerning the shape/form of the shadow object tbh.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: MattyWS on November 16, 2018, 06:54:44 PM
Indeed you can't physically see oxygen, oxygen also doesn't cast shadows either, I'll say again something cannot be invisible and also cast a shadow.

I'll also mention (and this won't have anything to do with flat or spheroid earth) just seeing a shadow doesn't mean there has to be a new mystery object casting it, there is no correlation between the two ideas, much like how I know for example earthquakes exist, we can see the effect of earthquakes, but that doesn't mean there's some magical monster underground stomping his feet causing said earthquakes. Why would anyone immediately jump to that conclusion? The idea of a magical monster has no connection to earthquakes just as magical sky objects have no connection to a lunar eclipse.

Also how would this magical object orbit the Sun if there is no gravity according to FEH?

With that said though, as it's hard to know what causes gravity in the spheroid earth, is still a bit of a mystery to scientists, I can see my argument could also be used against me there. Maybe there is a magical gravity monster invisibly pulling everything together with its millions of arms. But I don't think so. Until someone proves the gravity monster exists, it remains unknown how it works I guess.

Either way we know how light works and there is no possible explain for an invisible shadow object. We would have seen it by now.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 16, 2018, 09:43:57 PM
Two important facts in this equation.
#Stars in the sky don't disappear because of sun light. There is no separation of night and say beyond earth's atmosphere and stars and planets are visible 7/24.
It's the effect sunlight has on earths atmosphere that makes it hard to see stars during the day.
#2 The Moon passes in front of the sun during a solar eclipse. How do we know? Because we watch it happen and its mathematically calculated.
The same way we calculate solar eclipse we calculate lunar eclipse and we watch it happen perfectly timed to the calculation.
Why would we think there's something else in the sky causing this phenomena when we can so precisely calculate the events and physically observe them?
If the sun and moon were only 3,000 miles away like FET claims,  and there was something else up there getting between the sun and moon I'm 100% positive we would have detected by now.
So that's not it. FET has to come up with, once again, another model that explains how this works on FE, which I'm sure will cause another FE model to fail.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 16, 2018, 09:57:01 PM
Congrats, you've found what I have always seen as the major issue with the idea of a shadow object. But you can post 'we should see it' until you're blue in the face and it won't really matter. For the FEH the shadow object is rooted in observation. An object that is circular in nature moves between the sun and the moon during a lunar eclipse. Ergo, something we can't see/detect at present much be up there doing this.

Also remember, Astronomy is based on patterns, not model predictions (according to FEH) so the fact that we can predict it is irrelevant. Of course we can predict it, so can the FEH by following the pattern.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 16, 2018, 10:00:45 PM
Two important facts in this equation.
#Stars in the sky don't disappear because of sun light. There is no separation of night and say beyond earth's atmosphere and stars and planets are visible 7/24.
It's the effect sunlight has on earths atmosphere that makes it hard to see stars during the day.
#2 The Moon passes in front of the sun during a solar eclipse. How do we know? Because we watch it happen and its mathematically calculated.
The same way we calculate solar eclipse we calculate lunar eclipse and we watch it happen perfectly timed to the calculation.
Why would we think there's something else in the sky causing this phenomena when we can so precisely calculate the events and physically observe them?
If the sun and moon were only 3,000 miles away like FET claims,  and there was something else up there getting between the sun and moon I'm 100% positive we would have detected by now.
So that's not it. FET has to come up with, once again, another model that explains how this works on FE, which I'm sure will cause another FE model to fail.

The eclipses aren't being solved on the basis of the three body problem of the Sun-Earth-Moon system. General applications of the Three Body Problem are, in fact, impossible. Only very few and limited versions of the Three Body Problem can be solved.

The eclipses are being predicted based on patterns of previous eclipses, just like how Aristotle and the Ancient Babylonians did it. They could predict the eclipses thousands of years into the future.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 16, 2018, 10:15:18 PM
Two important facts in this equation.
#Stars in the sky don't disappear because of sun light. There is no separation of night and say beyond earth's atmosphere and stars and planets are visible 7/24.
It's the effect sunlight has on earths atmosphere that makes it hard to see stars during the day.
#2 The Moon passes in front of the sun during a solar eclipse. How do we know? Because we watch it happen and its mathematically calculated.
The same way we calculate solar eclipse we calculate lunar eclipse and we watch it happen perfectly timed to the calculation.
Why would we think there's something else in the sky causing this phenomena when we can so precisely calculate the events and physically observe them?
If the sun and moon were only 3,000 miles away like FET claims,  and there was something else up there getting between the sun and moon I'm 100% positive we would have detected by now.
So that's not it. FET has to come up with, once again, another model that explains how this works on FE, which I'm sure will cause another FE model to fail.

The eclipses aren't being solved on the basis of the three body problem of the Sun-Earth-Moon system. General applications of the Three Body Problem are, in fact, impossible. Only very few and limited versions of the Three Body Problem can be solved.

The eclipses are being predicted based on patterns of previous eclipses, just like how Aristotle and the Ancient Babylonians did it. They could predict the eclipses thousands of years into the future.
I assume you're referring to FET when saying, " General application of the Three Body Problem are, in fact, impossible". Because in this day and age it's very simple.
"They could predict the eclipses thousands of years into the future". This statement is contradiction of the former. ???
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 16, 2018, 10:22:34 PM
Two important facts in this equation.
#Stars in the sky don't disappear because of sun light. There is no separation of night and say beyond earth's atmosphere and stars and planets are visible 7/24.
It's the effect sunlight has on earths atmosphere that makes it hard to see stars during the day.
#2 The Moon passes in front of the sun during a solar eclipse. How do we know? Because we watch it happen and its mathematically calculated.
The same way we calculate solar eclipse we calculate lunar eclipse and we watch it happen perfectly timed to the calculation.
Why would we think there's something else in the sky causing this phenomena when we can so precisely calculate the events and physically observe them?
If the sun and moon were only 3,000 miles away like FET claims,  and there was something else up there getting between the sun and moon I'm 100% positive we would have detected by now.
So that's not it. FET has to come up with, once again, another model that explains how this works on FE, which I'm sure will cause another FE model to fail.

The eclipses aren't being solved on the basis of the three body problem of the Sun-Earth-Moon system. General applications of the Three Body Problem are, in fact, impossible. Only very few and limited versions of the Three Body Problem can be solved.

The eclipses are being predicted based on patterns of previous eclipses, just like how Aristotle and the Ancient Babylonians did it. They could predict the eclipses thousands of years into the future.
I assume you're referring to FET when saying, " General application of the Three Body Problem are, in fact, impossible". Because in this day and age it's very simple.
"They could predict the eclipses thousands of years into the future". This statement is contradiction of the former. ???
They also threw out the FET, is how the predicted eclipse into the future. There were NO invisible body's casting shadows in ancients theories and predictions of how eclipse works.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: MattyWS on November 16, 2018, 10:29:51 PM
An object that is circular in nature moves between the sun and the moon during a lunar eclipse.
I know it's beside the point so far but I'm sure once FE'ers come to realise it could actually be the earth causing the shadow on the moon I can just see them shouting "but it's a circular shadow so the earth must be a disk!". Casting a circular shadow doesn't have to be a disk though, the object in question could also be cylindrical, cone, spherical or even a rhombicosidodecahedron. The chances are though, since we've observed moons and planets to be spherical it's safe to say what ever the object is, is most likely also spherical.

We have 3D simulations of solar systems using the maths that predict the movement of celestial bodies, we can use these 3D simulations to show the earth being between the sun and moon and casting the shadow. Can anyone here run 3D a simulation of a flat earth version of a lunar eclipse while predicting celestial bodies time and locations perfectly?

Here's a few cool ones I found, just for fun

https://theskylive.com/3dsolarsystem
http://project-metis.com/SolarSystem/
https://www.solarsystemscope.com/

Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 16, 2018, 10:30:52 PM
Quote
I assume you're referring to FET when saying, " General application of the Three Body Problem are, in fact, impossible". Because in this day and age it's very simple.

"They could predict the eclipses thousands of years into the future". This statement is contradiction of the former. ???

Prediction of three or more orbiting bodies under the Newtonian System is impossible. Literally impossible. It is one of the greatest problems of astronomy, mathematics, and classical mechanics. They can't get the heliocentric system to work.

Take a look at the existing Three Body Problem solutions. The bodies are either all of the same mass, or some of them are mass-less. The applications are very limited.

The famous physicist Henri Poincare studied the Three Body Problem. Here is a quote from 'Mathematics Applied to Deterministic Problems in Natural Sciences' about Poincare's discoveries:

Quote
As Poincare experimented, he was relieved to discover that in most of the situations, the possible orbits varied only slightly from the initial 2-body orbit, and were still stable, but what occurred during further experimentation was a shock. Poincare discovered that even in some of the smallest approximations some orbits behaved in an erratic unstable manner. His calculations showed that even a minute gravitational pull from a third body might cause a planet to wobble and fly out of orbit all together.

The available solutions to the Three Body Problem, beyond looking unlike anything seen in Heliocentric Theory, are so sensitive that the slightest change or imperfection will tear the entire system apart. As a very illustrative demonstration, take a look at this online Three Body Problem simulator that uses the simplest possible figure eight pattern, which requires three identical bodies of equal mass that move at very specific momentum and distance in relation to each other.

Demo: Figure-Eight Three Body Problem

Adjust the slider values in the upper left to something very slight to find what happens. What you will see is a demonstration of Chaos Theory. Any slight modification to the system creates a chain reaction of random chaos.

This is precisely the issue of modeling the Heliocentric System, and why the fundamental systems as depicted in popular astronomy cannot exist. Only very specific and very sensitive configurations may exist. The slightest deviation, such as with a system with unequal masses, or the minute influence from a gravitating body external to the system will, as Poincare found, cause the entire system to fly apart!
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 16, 2018, 10:36:28 PM
An object that is circular in nature moves between the sun and the moon during a lunar eclipse.
I know it's beside the point so far but I'm sure once FE'ers come to realise it could actually be the earth causing the shadow on the moon I can just see them shouting "but it's a circular shadow so the earth must be a disk!". Casting a circular shadow doesn't have to be a disk though, the object in question could also be cylindrical, cone, spherical or even a rhombicosidodecahedron. The chances are though, since we've observed moons and planets to be spherical it's safe to say what ever the object is, is most likely also spherical.

We have 3D simulations of solar systems using the maths that predict the movement of celestial bodies, we can use these 3D simulations to show the earth being between the sun and moon and casting the shadow. Can anyone here run 3D a simulation of a flat earth version of a lunar eclipse while predicting celestial bodies time and locations perfectly?

Here's a few cool ones I found, just for fun

https://theskylive.com/3dsolarsystem
http://project-metis.com/SolarSystem/
https://www.solarsystemscope.com/

Those are just cartoons. The only reason software such as Stellarium and Celestia can predict the positions of planets in the sky with any accuracy is because the prediction is actually based on ancient pattern-based methods. Planetary prediction, or any other astronomical prediction, is not modeled based on Newtonian or Einsteinian physics or the Heliocentric Solar System. Read more at https://wiki.tfes.org/Astronomical_Prediction_Based_on_Patterns
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: MattyWS on November 16, 2018, 10:46:56 PM
It's unfair to say the three body problem is completely unsolvable, sure enough mathematicians can get extremely close to the calculations they need by starting off breaking the equations down into simpler problems, then to add small corrections along the way toward the end result. Mostly it's not 100% accurate (because you're including tiny corrections to get the result) but there are so many variables that make such calculations with the sun, earth and moon extremely difficult. Considering you have to take into account in this instance every other object with significant mass in the solar system and maybe even outside the solar system, since we are after all in and apart of the galaxy, there are bound to be an immeasurable amount of variables to get 100% accurate mathematical equations, hence corrections. As you mentioned the universe is chaotic indeed. I'm dumbing this down to explain a little bit because perturbation theory could be hard to understand for everyone. I've heard someone once use the term "mathemagics" as a way of claiming people use impossibly complex maths to trick people into believing them. It makes me sad that not understanding maths could make someone think it all must be fake. :(
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: MattyWS on November 16, 2018, 10:50:48 PM
An object that is circular in nature moves between the sun and the moon during a lunar eclipse.
I know it's beside the point so far but I'm sure once FE'ers come to realise it could actually be the earth causing the shadow on the moon I can just see them shouting "but it's a circular shadow so the earth must be a disk!". Casting a circular shadow doesn't have to be a disk though, the object in question could also be cylindrical, cone, spherical or even a rhombicosidodecahedron. The chances are though, since we've observed moons and planets to be spherical it's safe to say what ever the object is, is most likely also spherical.

We have 3D simulations of solar systems using the maths that predict the movement of celestial bodies, we can use these 3D simulations to show the earth being between the sun and moon and casting the shadow. Can anyone here run 3D a simulation of a flat earth version of a lunar eclipse while predicting celestial bodies time and locations perfectly?

Here's a few cool ones I found, just for fun

https://theskylive.com/3dsolarsystem
http://project-metis.com/SolarSystem/
https://www.solarsystemscope.com/

Those are just cartoons. The only reason software such as Stellarium and Celestia can predict the positions of planets in the sky with any accuracy is because the prediction is actually based on ancient pattern-based methods. Planetary prediction, or any other astronomical prediction, is not modeled based on Newtonian or Einsteinian physics or the Heliocentric Solar System. Read more at https://wiki.tfes.org/Astronomical_Prediction_Based_on_Patterns
Yes, to clarify when I said for fun I did mean just that. But in one of them you could probably line the planets up to particular times and see how the sun, earth and moon are positioned to get a possible example of eclipses, it's a nice visual representation.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: stack on November 16, 2018, 10:52:55 PM
Aside from n-body issues and predictive versus calculated astronomy, what is the shadow object? Where does it go between eclipses? How come no one has ever seen it other than during an eclipse? Literally no one can verify/explain it's existence.

Lastly, is the shadow object the only explanation for the lunar eclipse FET has?
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 17, 2018, 12:48:05 AM
Aside from n-body issues and predictive versus calculated astronomy, what is the shadow object? Where does it go between eclipses? How come no one has ever seen it other than during an eclipse? Literally no one can verify/explain it's existence.

Lastly, is the shadow object the only explanation for the lunar eclipse FET has?
Thanks for keeping this thread on track.
I'd like to also point out that it's completely impossible to calculate or predict when this phenomena will occur if the proposed, by FET, body is, invisible, have no idea how fast it's moving, it's size, where it's at at any given point in time, the path it travels etc. Yet we predict it with to the minute and second accuracy.

Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: markjo on November 17, 2018, 02:31:45 AM
Aside from n-body issues and predictive versus calculated astronomy, what is the shadow object? Where does it go between eclipses? How come no one has ever seen it other than during an eclipse? Literally no one can verify/explain it's existence.

Lastly, is the shadow object the only explanation for the lunar eclipse FET has?
Thanks for keeping this thread on track.
I'd like to also point out that it's completely impossible to calculate or predict when this phenomena will occur if the proposed, by FET, body is, invisible, have no idea how fast it's moving, it's size, where it's at at any given point in time, the path it travels etc. Yet we predict it with to the minute and second accuracy.
FE eclipses are predicted by carefully noting that they come in patterns over the course of about 18 years known as Saros cycles.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 17, 2018, 02:43:33 AM
Aside from n-body issues and predictive versus calculated astronomy, what is the shadow object? Where does it go between eclipses? How come no one has ever seen it other than during an eclipse? Literally no one can verify/explain it's existence.

Lastly, is the shadow object the only explanation for the lunar eclipse FET has?
Thanks for keeping this thread on track.
I'd like to also point out that it's completely impossible to calculate or predict when this phenomena will occur if the proposed, by FET, body is, invisible, have no idea how fast it's moving, it's size, where it's at at any given point in time, the path it travels etc. Yet we predict it with to the minute and second accuracy.
FE eclipses are predicted by carefully noting that they come in patterns over the course of about 18 years known as Saros cycles.
How can FET use a RE model that predicts this based on the orbit of the moon around the earth and the earth around the sun and points out that the earth gets between the sun&moon and moon between sun&earth?
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: markjo on November 17, 2018, 03:53:00 AM
How can FET use a RE model that predicts this based on the orbit of the moon around the earth and the earth around the sun and points out that the earth gets between the sun&moon and moon between sun&earth?
They don't.  They just observed the timing of eclipses for a few hundred years and worked out the pattern.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 17, 2018, 04:20:11 AM
How can FET use a RE model that predicts this based on the orbit of the moon around the earth and the earth around the sun and points out that the earth gets between the sun&moon and moon between sun&earth?
They don't.  They just observed the timing of eclipses for a few hundred years and worked out the pattern.
I suppose anybody could figure out the timing over hundreds of years, wouldn't matter what their beliefs were.
However the new FET movement is relatively young. The Saros families of cycles isn't. I believe dates back to  Babylon about 2,500 years ago which is about the time humanity started throwing out the idea the earth was flat, center of the universe etc. and figured out the earth was round, the moon orbited the earth and both moon and earth orbited the sun.
"is the shadow object the only explanation for the lunar eclipse FET has?"
and
how does the earth get between the moon and sun in FET?
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: RonJ on November 17, 2018, 05:08:25 AM
I do believe that the 3 body problem is mostly under control.  Euler, Lagrange, and Jacobi have found some general solutions to the problem.  A general (explicit) solution isn't really necessary these days anyway. You can calculate the orbital paths to as much precision as you have processing power and time available.  The numerical power of modern computers are very remarkable and you can use numerical series incorporating hundred or thousand of parameters to obtain any level of accuracy you need.  In the near future quantum computers will make the 3 body problem even more viable to solve in detail.  Don't be afraid. The heliocentric model does indeed work under Newtonian laws and the solar system won't be flying apart anytime soon.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: markjo on November 17, 2018, 05:36:50 AM
"is the shadow object the only explanation for the lunar eclipse FET has?"
The shadow object is one explanation.  I'm not sure, but I seem to recall some FE'ers thinking that the moon's self-luminous nature might have something to do with it.

and
how does the earth get between the moon and sun in FET?
It doesn't.  End of story.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: stack on November 17, 2018, 06:08:19 AM
At least from a Rowbotham perspective, yes, the shadow object is a must. He also swizzles in the self-luminous moon bit as well. I haven’t read ENAG Chapter XI In a while. But enlightening:

"From the facts and phenomena already advanced, we cannot draw any other conclusion than that the moon is obscured by some kind of semi-transparent body passing before it; and through which the luminous surface is visible: the luminosity changed in colour by the density of the intervening object. This conclusion is forced upon, us by the evidence; but it involves the admission that the moon shines with light of its own--that it is not a reflector of the sun's light, but absolutely self-luminous. Although this admission is logically compulsory, it will be useful and strictly Zetetic to collect all the evidence possible which bears upon it.”

The last line is a particular favorite, kind of a, “Logic demands this conclusion,’compulsory’, in fact, but here on in, I’ll pepper you with cherry picked phrases from philosophers, astronomers, greeks and scriptural references to cement this undeniable logical conclusion.” type of argument. Clever, that Rowbotham.

Bottom line, the shadow object argument as a requirement to explain a flat earth lunar eclipse is just that; a requirement. One necessary to get FET out of the earth “getting in the way” jam. It is literally not based on anything observable, testable, measurable…nothing. It doesn’t even pass the Zetetic sniff test. It is a ‘compulsory’ necessity in FET, manufactured to solve a problem in FET that doesn’t exist in RET.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 17, 2018, 06:08:44 AM
I do believe that the 3 body problem is mostly under control.  Euler, Lagrange, and Jacobi have found some general solutions to the problem.  A general (explicit) solution isn't really necessary these days anyway. You can calculate the orbital paths to as much precision as you have processing power and time available.  The numerical power of modern computers are very remarkable and you can use numerical series incorporating hundred or thousand of parameters to obtain any level of accuracy you need.  In the near future quantum computers will make the 3 body problem even more viable to solve in detail.  Don't be afraid. The heliocentric model does indeed work under Newtonian laws and the solar system won't be flying apart anytime soon.
I agree and I was just reading something the other day about modern science and mathematics having some 1,200 new,"easy" solutions to end the 300 years of ponder over the hard to solve "three body problem". I love modern  science.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: JCM on November 17, 2018, 06:48:15 AM
How can FET use a RE model that predicts this based on the orbit of the moon around the earth and the earth around the sun and points out that the earth gets between the sun&moon and moon between sun&earth?
They don't.  They just observed the timing of eclipses for a few hundred years and worked out the pattern.

Who is this “they”?  The solar eclipses are viewed only on small sections relative to the size of the Earth at any one time, so who is keeping track of every solar eclipse in ancient times when they could only ever see a few in their lifetime?  Surely they would miss far more then they could see so how is a pattern made?  Also, the size, direction, length, width are different every time.  Claiming that the ancients could calculate the exact location where the eclipse is actually viewable  anywhere near the accuracy we have today is laughable.  Show me the table of solar eclipses the Europeans could see over 100 years compared to the ones they were unable to see and there still be a pattern they could predict both location, direction, and time of these events.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 17, 2018, 06:48:33 AM
At least from a Rowbotham perspective, yes, the shadow object is a must. He also swizzles in the self-luminous moon bit as well. I haven’t read ENAG Chapter XI In a while. But enlightening:

"From the facts and phenomena already advanced, we cannot draw any other conclusion than that the moon is obscured by some kind of semi-transparent body passing before it; and through which the luminous surface is visible: the luminosity changed in colour by the density of the intervening object. This conclusion is forced upon, us by the evidence; but it involves the admission that the moon shines with light of its own--that it is not a reflector of the sun's light, but absolutely self-luminous. Although this admission is logically compulsory, it will be useful and strictly Zetetic to collect all the evidence possible which bears upon it.”

The last line is a particular favorite, kind of a, “Logic demands this conclusion,’compulsory’, in fact, but here on in, I’ll pepper you with cherry picked phrases from philosophers, astronomers, greeks and scriptural references to cement this undeniable logical conclusion.” type of argument. Clever, that Rowbotham.

Bottom line, the shadow object argument as a requirement to explain a flat earth lunar eclipse is just that; a requirement. One necessary to get FET out of the earth “getting in the way” jam. It is literally not based on anything observable, testable, measurable…nothing. It doesn’t even pass the Zetetic sniff test. It is a ‘compulsory’ necessity in FET, manufactured to solve a problem in FET that doesn’t exist in RET.

So FET can't put the earth between the moon and sun because that would kill all of FET models and hypothesis that they hold as evidence of a flat earth.
Now the problem of expiation from FET doubles when we put the moon between the earth and sun.
There's NO claiming hidden invisible objects casting shadows across the earth during solar eclipse because we physically observe the moon passing in front of the sun. Just another conundrum that orbits around flat earth.  FET

Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: JCM on November 17, 2018, 06:53:07 AM
Will someone explain where the moon went when this shadow object passes in front of the sun?  Because we can track the path of the moon extremely accurately and this object is in its place right where the moon should be, directly in front of the sun!  A day later the moon is viewable again as a crescent on the other side of the sun right where we expect it to be...
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 17, 2018, 09:48:47 AM
At least from a Rowbotham perspective, yes, the shadow object is a must. He also swizzles in the self-luminous moon bit as well. I haven’t read ENAG Chapter XI In a while. But enlightening:

"From the facts and phenomena already advanced, we cannot draw any other conclusion than that the moon is obscured by some kind of semi-transparent body passing before it; and through which the luminous surface is visible: the luminosity changed in colour by the density of the intervening object. This conclusion is forced upon, us by the evidence; but it involves the admission that the moon shines with light of its own--that it is not a reflector of the sun's light, but absolutely self-luminous. Although this admission is logically compulsory, it will be useful and strictly Zetetic to collect all the evidence possible which bears upon it.”

The last line is a particular favorite, kind of a, “Logic demands this conclusion,’compulsory’, in fact, but here on in, I’ll pepper you with cherry picked phrases from philosophers, astronomers, greeks and scriptural references to cement this undeniable logical conclusion.” type of argument. Clever, that Rowbotham.

Bottom line, the shadow object argument as a requirement to explain a flat earth lunar eclipse is just that; a requirement. One necessary to get FET out of the earth “getting in the way” jam. It is literally not based on anything observable, testable, measurable…nothing. It doesn’t even pass the Zetetic sniff test. It is a ‘compulsory’ necessity in FET, manufactured to solve a problem in FET that doesn’t exist in RET.

So FET can't put the earth between the moon and sun because that would kill all of FET models and hypothesis that they hold as evidence of a flat earth.
Now the problem of expiation from FET doubles when we put the moon between the earth and sun.
There's NO claiming hidden invisible objects casting shadows across the earth during solar eclipse because we physically observe the moon passing in front of the sun. Just another conundrum that orbits around flat earth.  FET
Will someone explain where the moon went when this shadow object passes in front of the sun?  Because we can track the path of the moon extremely accurately and this object is in its place right where the moon should be, directly in front of the sun!  A day later the moon is viewable again as a crescent on the other side of the sun right where we expect it to be...
I'm not sure where you two are getting this idea the shadow object does anything with solar eclipses. The moon causes them, just like in RET (except for one example over on the other forums who's pretty well ignored.) The shadow object only exists for lunar eclipses, and only because it's a requirement for the Flat Earth Hypothesis to get past stage 1 really.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: JCM on November 17, 2018, 03:45:56 PM

I'm not sure where you two are getting this idea the shadow object does anything with solar eclipses. The moon causes them, just like in RET (except for one example over on the other forums who's pretty well ignored.) The shadow object only exists for lunar eclipses, and only because it's a requirement for the Flat Earth Hypothesis to get past stage 1 really.

I stand corrected, I have heard it “implied” the shadow object is responsible for both in many discussions on this forum.  If there was a shadow object, then why isn’t it causing solar eclipses is maybe the better question?  Also, the wiki on lunar eclipses and FEH states light is hitting the moon from the Sun through an object like the Earth with a less dense edge (like an atmosphere if it were the Earth but not the Earth)...?    Is that an admission the phases are caused by the side facing the sun?  If phases are caused by the Sun, FEH has no explanation for those phases appearance.  A spotlight Sun also isn’t shining towards the moon right?

Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: MattyWS on November 17, 2018, 04:28:31 PM
If the sun were a point light with less than enough reach to get visibly to the moon (or a spotlight) causing the day night/cycle on the FEH then the light also wouldn't reach the moon if it didn't reach the land under the moon. If it did reach the moon, light would also reach the land under the moon which means either it would always be day time on earth or the moon would almost never be lit up. The fact that the moon phases are obviously shading and lighting from the direction of the sun means we know the sunlight reaches the moon. You only need a decent camera with magnification to see the features on the moon when going through the phases shows the landscape of the moon.

here is an example of the moon features being lit up from what is quite obviously a light from one direction. This observation is clearly what to expect from an object being lit up from an external source of light and we can also look at the shadows to see the direction the light source is coming from is not within or close to the surface of the moon, let alone the surface. With that, I would say it was pretty obvious the moon is not self illuminating. And since it isn't self illuminating then it must be lit up from the only other close by source of light that we can observe that could cause that much illumination, the sun.

https://youtu.be/m8_4q54zMFs

So now the moon is most certainly lit up by the sun, and since we cannot observe a magically impossible invisible shadow object directly between the sun and moon I would say it's fair to assume there isn't one. Which is most certainly a conundrum for FEH. You cannot just ignore evidence that goes against a hypothesis though, if the hypothesis can't be proven you have to move on to another. So without that invisible 'shadow object' what is the likely explanation of a lunar eclipse with a flat earth model?

Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: RonJ on November 18, 2018, 01:11:01 AM
Maybe there is another job for the shadow object besides just accounting for the lunar eclipse.  The sun and moon must also line up in such a way as to cause the variations in the regular tides you see.  In the heliocentric model the moon can be on the same side of the earth as the sun and then both bodies can exert a gravitational pull on the earths water and cause a variable strength tide.  The sun is much more massive but is much further away from the earth than the moon, so the gravitational effects of the sun and moon are different.  The moons gravitational pull on the earth’s water is about 2.5 times stronger than the sun.   With the FET model the sun and moon are opposite of each other and are of variable distances in different seasons.  I also don’t see in the wiki where the sun exerts any gravitation pull on the earth’s water, just the moon and stars.  If the FET model were true, I would then expect to see tides that were different in different seasons of the year on a regular basis.  Maybe the FET model will have to be adjusted so that the shadow object will have some tidal effects as well.  If the shadow object did that then, by definition, it would have to have some mass.  You then should be able to detect and measure it. You can easily see other objects when the sun is in the sky.  I have personally seen the planet Venus and even used it as a navigational body during the daylight hours.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 18, 2018, 01:54:54 AM
Maybe there is another job for the shadow object besides just accounting for the lunar eclipse.  The sun and moon must also line up in such a way as to cause the variations in the regular tides you see.  In the heliocentric model the moon can be on the same side of the earth as the sun and then both bodies can exert a gravitational pull on the earths water and cause a variable strength tide.  The sun is much more massive but is much further away from the earth than the moon, so the gravitational effects of the sun and moon are different.  The moons gravitational pull on the earth’s water is about 2.5 times stronger than the sun.   With the FET model the sun and moon are opposite of each other and are of variable distances in different seasons.  I also don’t see in the wiki where the sun exerts any gravitation pull on the earth’s water, just the moon and stars.  If the FET model were true, I would then expect to see tides that were different in different seasons of the year on a regular basis.  Maybe the FET model will have to be adjusted so that the shadow object will have some tidal effects as well.  If the shadow object did that then, by definition, it would have to have some mass.  You then should be able to detect and measure it. You can easily see other objects when the sun is in the sky.  I have personally seen the planet Venus and even used it as a navigational body during the daylight hours.
That is something to consider, that is seasonal differences in tides due to sun and moon distance changes in FET.
But if I'm not mistaken FET doesn't adhere to the concept of gravity. I haven't read what FET claims tidal effect cause is.
The "Shadow Object" if that's what we're going to call it, my not have much mass, no gravitational effect on anything? Obviously we can't see it, detect it with radar or anything, therefor we don't know what it is or even if it exists.
However, it might be man made and cloaked, this would fit the frame of FET and the idea that there's a huge conspiracy and they're hiding the truth from us? Don't laugh, if you're going to believe the earth is flat you have to reach deep, fetch far for evidence.
The problem with that theory though is FET would have us believe that man doesn't posses the skill, technology, modern vessels and ingenuity to properly map the earth. How would we figure out the sun, moon and earth line up to cause eclipse effect with a 4th invisible object throwing us off track?
I guess my point is, The "Shadow Object" brings up more questions than answers.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: RonJ on November 18, 2018, 02:53:08 AM
From the Wiki-----
Celestial Gravitation is a part of some Flat Earth models which involve an attraction by all objects of mass on earth to the heavenly bodies. This is not the same as Gravity, since Celestial Gravitation does not imply an attraction between objects of mass on Earth. Celestial Gravitation accounts for tides and other gravimetric anomalies across the Earth's plane.

A typical lunar eclipse
The Lunar Eclipse is red because the light of the sun is shining through the edges of the Shadow Object which passes between the sun and moon during a Lunar Eclipse. The red tint occurs because the outer layers of the Shadow Object are not sufficiently dense. The Sun's light is powerful enough to shine through the outer layers of the Shadow Object, just as a flashlight is powerful enough to shine through your hand when you put it right up against your palm
--------

I take this to mean that the heavenly bodies are endowed with some sort of property that allows for gravitational attraction between them and objects on earth, but other objects on earth aren't attracted to the earth itself.  That way the heavenly bodies can cause the tides but I'm not exactly sure what the exact definition of 'heavenly bodies' happens to be.  It seem to me that I had read in another part of the Wiki that the moon and the stars could do some gravitational attraction, but the sun could not.  I did ask if there were any equations that could describe this property (like the equation of universal gravitation in RET) but I haven't seen an answer to that.

It looks to me like the shadow object has some interesting properties as quoted above from the Wiki.  It looks like it might be semi-transparent.  The 'official' line in FET seems to be that you can never see the shadow object because the sun is just too bright during the day to see anything in the sky other than the sun itself and maybe the moon.  Of course the observed facts are different.  I personally saw the moon and sun in the sky at the same time just yesterday.  That's very common and is probably part of the FET paradigm.  Additionally I have personally seen the planet Venus in the sky along with the sun so I know that's possible.  I believe you can also sometimes see Mars, but I can't remember seeing that planet recently myself.

I've brought up another problem with FET countless times in the past that has never been explained.  The sun must change orbits to account for the seasons in FET and that's shown on the Wiki.  In order to change an orbital path there must be a force applied on a scheduled basis to move the sun in the path prescribed by the FET model.  As far as that goes, the same kind of force is also needed for the moon and the shadow object as well.  So many questions and so far no cogent answers.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 18, 2018, 03:20:50 AM
Thanks RonJ for your in depth respons and I do like your perspective.
I think my fist question has been answered. FET doesn't believe the earth ever get between the moon & sun. Of course it couldn't because that would me FET is wrong in so many ways. Instead it's an invisible object.

So lets move on to my 2nd question from my OP.
how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?

We know without a shadow of doubt it's not a shadow object, it's the moon that passes in front of the sun, covering the sun in total solar eclipse, casts a very small shadow on the surface of the earth for a very short time and distance.
How does FET explain what we physically observe?

Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 18, 2018, 04:14:09 AM
Thanks RonJ for your in depth respons and I do like your perspective.
I think my fist question has been answered. FET doesn't believe the earth ever get between the moon & sun. Of course it couldn't because that would me FET is wrong in so many ways. Instead it's an invisible object.

So lets move on to my 2nd question from my OP.
how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?

We know without a shadow of doubt it's not a shadow object, it's the moon that passes in front of the sun, covering the sun in total solar eclipse, casts a very small shadow on the surface of the earth for a very short time and distance.
How does FET explain what we physically observe?

FEH has no problems with the solar eclipse having the moon cover the sun. How many times will I have to repeat this in a single thread.....
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 18, 2018, 05:01:36 AM
Thanks RonJ for your in depth respons and I do like your perspective.
I think my fist question has been answered. FET doesn't believe the earth ever get between the moon & sun. Of course it couldn't because that would me FET is wrong in so many ways. Instead it's an invisible object.

So lets move on to my 2nd question from my OP.
how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?

We know without a shadow of doubt it's not a shadow object, it's the moon that passes in front of the sun, covering the sun in total solar eclipse, casts a very small shadow on the surface of the earth for a very short time and distance.
How does FET explain what we physically observe?

FEH has no problems with the solar eclipse having the moon cover the sun. How many times will I have to repeat this in a single thread.....
I want more that you repeating yourself.
I want diagrams, explanations etc. of, for example, if the moon and sun are relatively the same size, same distance from the surface of the earth, circling opposite each other, how does FET explain the exact phenomena/s we physically observe.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: JCM on November 18, 2018, 05:08:46 AM
Thanks RonJ for your in depth respons and I do like your perspective.
I think my fist question has been answered. FET doesn't believe the earth ever get between the moon & sun. Of course it couldn't because that would me FET is wrong in so many ways. Instead it's an invisible object.

So lets move on to my 2nd question from my OP.
how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?

We know without a shadow of doubt it's not a shadow object, it's the moon that passes in front of the sun, covering the sun in total solar eclipse, casts a very small shadow on the surface of the earth for a very short time and distance.
How does FET explain what we physically observe?

FEH has no problems with the solar eclipse having the moon cover the sun. How many times will I have to repeat this in a single thread.....

You saying it doesn't make the problem go away.  In order for the moon to block the sun in FEH, the moon also needs to follow the same seasonal adjusted rings as the sun speeding up as it approaches the tropic of capricorn and slowing down as it approaches tropic of cancer.  This is an obvious massive flaw in the design as

1. The moon travels near  the same angular velocity as the sun, neither speeding or slowing down to match the changes in distance traveled.

2. The moons path through the sky does not mirror the shifting north then south that we see in the sun.  The moon cannot block the sun with FEH unless it is in the same path as the sun.   If the FEH is correct, they should mirror each other, and they absolutely do not! No where near.   FEH destroyed by its own wiki.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: MattyWS on November 18, 2018, 05:19:46 AM
If someone does make a diagram showing this, keep in mind there are verifiable solar eclipse maps showing the paths of the eclipse' shadows, so you'd have to make sure the sun and moon are perfectly lined up to these maps.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: RonJ on November 18, 2018, 05:56:06 AM
There's another huge problem with FET according to the FAQ section in the Wiki.  The sun changes it's orbital diameter in the different seasons.  You can see that on the nice diagram.  When you go from a smaller diameter circle to a larger diameter circle you have to speed up the sun in order to keep the same orbital time (length of day).  This would require some kind of a retro-rocket.  The opposite would be true when going from a larger diameter orbit to a smaller one.  The retro-rocket would have to fire in the opposite direction to slow the sun down.  I'm assuming that the sun has some mass.  However I haven't been able to find a figure for the mass of the sun under the FET model.  Since the sun has to have some mass it would take a specific amount of time to change the orbital diameter.  More thrust means a shorter time to change orbits.  All of this would have to be accounted for in any kind of diagram showing the timing of an eclipse.  Additionally since the sun has some kind of mass it would require a force to keep it in an orbital path.  Could this be some kind of gravitational attraction between the sun and another body?  Maybe the shadow body is somehow involved.  Again I am going on very little information and having to make some educated guesses.  It sure would help to have some kind of reading on the speculated mass of the sun under this FET model so some accurate predictions could be arrived at for an eclipse.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 18, 2018, 06:40:23 AM
There's another huge problem with FET according to the FAQ section in the Wiki.  The sun changes it's orbital diameter in the different seasons.  You can see that on the nice diagram.  When you go from a smaller diameter circle to a larger diameter circle you have to speed up the sun in order to keep the same orbital time (length of day).  This would require some kind of a retro-rocket.  The opposite would be true when going from a larger diameter orbit to a smaller one.  The retro-rocket would have to fire in the opposite direction to slow the sun down.  I'm assuming that the sun has some mass.  However I haven't been able to find a figure for the mass of the sun under the FET model.  Since the sun has to have some mass it would take a specific amount of time to change the orbital diameter.  More thrust means a shorter time to change orbits.  All of this would have to be accounted for in any kind of diagram showing the timing of an eclipse.  Additionally since the sun has some kind of mass it would require a force to keep it in an orbital path.  Could this be some kind of gravitational attraction between the sun and another body?  Maybe the shadow body is somehow involved.  Again I am going on very little information and having to make some educated guesses.  It sure would help to have some kind of reading on the speculated mass of the sun under this FET model so some accurate predictions could be arrived at for an eclipse.

Also the moon or the sun, or both, would have to change speeds to catch up to one another to line up and change altitudes so the moon could pass under the sun. Which brings up a whole new set of questions.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 18, 2018, 07:17:43 AM
There's another huge problem with FET according to the FAQ section in the Wiki.  The sun changes it's orbital diameter in the different seasons.  You can see that on the nice diagram.  When you go from a smaller diameter circle to a larger diameter circle you have to speed up the sun in order to keep the same orbital time (length of day).  This would require some kind of a retro-rocket.  The opposite would be true when going from a larger diameter orbit to a smaller one.  The retro-rocket would have to fire in the opposite direction to slow the sun down.  I'm assuming that the sun has some mass.  However I haven't been able to find a figure for the mass of the sun under the FET model.  Since the sun has to have some mass it would take a specific amount of time to change the orbital diameter.  More thrust means a shorter time to change orbits.  All of this would have to be accounted for in any kind of diagram showing the timing of an eclipse.  Additionally since the sun has some kind of mass it would require a force to keep it in an orbital path.  Could this be some kind of gravitational attraction between the sun and another body?  Maybe the shadow body is somehow involved.  Again I am going on very little information and having to make some educated guesses.  It sure would help to have some kind of reading on the speculated mass of the sun under this FET model so some accurate predictions could be arrived at for an eclipse.

Does the needle of a record player change its rotational rate when it travels towards the center?
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: stack on November 18, 2018, 07:37:17 AM
There's another huge problem with FET according to the FAQ section in the Wiki.  The sun changes it's orbital diameter in the different seasons.  You can see that on the nice diagram.  When you go from a smaller diameter circle to a larger diameter circle you have to speed up the sun in order to keep the same orbital time (length of day).  This would require some kind of a retro-rocket.  The opposite would be true when going from a larger diameter orbit to a smaller one.  The retro-rocket would have to fire in the opposite direction to slow the sun down.  I'm assuming that the sun has some mass.  However I haven't been able to find a figure for the mass of the sun under the FET model.  Since the sun has to have some mass it would take a specific amount of time to change the orbital diameter.  More thrust means a shorter time to change orbits.  All of this would have to be accounted for in any kind of diagram showing the timing of an eclipse.  Additionally since the sun has some kind of mass it would require a force to keep it in an orbital path.  Could this be some kind of gravitational attraction between the sun and another body?  Maybe the shadow body is somehow involved.  Again I am going on very little information and having to make some educated guesses.  It sure would help to have some kind of reading on the speculated mass of the sun under this FET model so some accurate predictions could be arrived at for an eclipse.

Does the needle of a record player change its rotational rate when it travels towards the center?

Yes.

The record is not rotating, like flat earth. The needle, like the flat earth sun, needs to travel around the record. Here it is explained using the example of a stationary record with a traveling needle:

"But, when the record is stationary and you are using a cute little device to run around the grooves, the device would have to “know” whether it is an outer groove (where the correct linear speed is about 20 inches per second) or an inner groove (where the correct linear speed is about 9 inches per second) and adjust its travel speed accordingly in order to play at the proper pitch. This would be quite a difficult engineering project; it’s far more likely that the device runs at a constant speed (perhaps with a manual adjustment) in the hopes that it doesn’t sound too bad over the course of a single track."

Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: RonJ on November 18, 2018, 02:25:20 PM
Nice diversionary tactic with the record player question.  Now let's get back into the groove and start considering the question about the FET required orbit of the sun above the earth.  The math is obvious.  If you want to have the rotation time of the sun remain exactly the same in two different length orbits you have to change the speed.  It's a simple application of the time/distance equation.  The concept is simple, I'm hoping that the FET explanation will be too.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: TomInAustin on November 18, 2018, 10:46:56 PM
Because we know it's there because lunar eclipses happen. You can't see the oxygen you breathe can you? Something creates a shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse. It can't be the Earth under the FEH. So it has to be something else. The most likely explanation is an object we've yet to see or notice. This could be orbiting the sun close in, or any of a number of other places. Although personally I think it would have to be close to the sun, made of a material with a very low reflective index, and possibly be flat itself. Like a disk circling the sun. But I'm not sure what the main idea is concerning the shape/form of the shadow object tbh.

You are getting really good at arguing their side.   Quite impressive.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: TomInAustin on November 18, 2018, 11:03:38 PM
Thanks RonJ for your in depth respons and I do like your perspective.
I think my fist question has been answered. FET doesn't believe the earth ever get between the moon & sun. Of course it couldn't because that would me FET is wrong in so many ways. Instead it's an invisible object.

So lets move on to my 2nd question from my OP.
how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?

We know without a shadow of doubt it's not a shadow object, it's the moon that passes in front of the sun, covering the sun in total solar eclipse, casts a very small shadow on the surface of the earth for a very short time and distance.
How does FET explain what we physically observe?

FEH has no problems with the solar eclipse having the moon cover the sun. How many times will I have to repeat this in a single thread.....
I want more that you repeating yourself.
I want diagrams, explanations etc. of, for example, if the moon and sun are relatively the same size, same distance from the surface of the earth, circling opposite each other, how does FET explain the exact phenomena/s we physically observe.

You do realize you are arguing with a round earther right?   He is just really good at processing what he has read and heard here.   No one owes you diagrams, explanations,  etc.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: JCM on November 19, 2018, 07:12:36 AM

You do realize you are arguing with a round earther right?   He is just really good at processing what he has read and heard here.   No one owes you diagrams, explanations,  etc.

I disagree.  Their own FEH wiki states that the moon is seen blocking the sun for all of the solar eclipses throughout the year.  Their own wiki also shows the sun shifting north and south throughout the year towards the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. In order for the moon to make the solar eclipses it too obviously has to follow the same trajectories as the sun or else the eclipses would only happen when the sun crossed into the moons orbit (so only a small fraction of the year and only during those weeks or months).

The moons path looks nothing like the suns perfectly predictable path shifting north then south, the predictability of the solar eclipses requires the moon to follow the sun to make such eclipses if near the earth.  If the moon doesn’t follow the suns path as it would need to for the eclipses, it is just more evidence the sun and moon are NOT near us destroying a major component of FEH.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: LoveScience on November 19, 2018, 10:30:13 AM
For the record, the Moons orbital plane around the Earth is inclined to the ecliptic (Suns visible path through the sky) by 5 degrees. That's why we don't get a solar eclipse with each new Moon or lunar eclipse with each full Moon.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: edby on November 19, 2018, 11:16:59 AM
For the record, the Moons orbital plane around the Earth is inclined to the ecliptic (Suns visible path through the sky) by 5 degrees. That's why we don't get a solar eclipse with each new Moon or lunar eclipse with each full Moon.
This subject has been frequently discussed on the forum. Unfortunately the wiki does not contain information on what has been discussed, I always use a Google query such as this to search the site:

ecliptic site:https://forum.tfes.org

Apart from that, you are quite right. The Moon's orbit is inclined to the ecliptic by 5 degrees, so we don't get a solar eclipse with each new Moon or lunar eclipse with each full Moon.

In FE astronomy, an eclipse clearly can't happen as explained in RE, since moon and sun always above the earth. Hence 'shadow object' or something like that.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: LoveScience on November 19, 2018, 11:31:59 AM
This 'shadow object' intrigues me.  What is the object that creates the shadow?  In RE theory the object is the Moon creating a shadow on the Earth in the case of a solar eclipse or the Earth creating a shadow on the Moon in the case of a lunar eclipse.

The Moons shadow is a lot smaller, hence you have to be on a very specific and narrow track to observe a total solar eclipse.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: edby on November 19, 2018, 12:11:10 PM
This 'shadow object' intrigues me.  What is the object that creates the shadow?  In RE theory the object is the Moon creating a shadow on the Earth in the case of a solar eclipse or the Earth creating a shadow on the Moon in the case of a lunar eclipse.

The Moons shadow is a lot smaller, hence you have to be on a very specific and narrow track to observe a total solar eclipse.

I have posted essentially the same material numerous times here and on The Flat Earth Society, Forum (https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/) and I have never had a satisfactory answer.

This is what "the Wiki" says (bits about solar eclipse etc, removed for brevity):
Quote from: The Wiki
The Lunar Eclipse
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
A Lunar Eclipse occurs about twice a year when a satellite of the sun passes between the sun and moon.

This satellite is called the Shadow Object. Its orbital plane is tilted at an angle of about 5°10' to the sun's orbital plane[1], making eclipses possible only when the three bodies (Sun, Object, and Moon) are aligned and when the moon is crossing the sun's orbital plane (at a point called the node).    . . . . . . .  A lunar eclipse can be seen from the entire half of the earth beneath the moon at that time.
. . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

The shadow object is never seen because it orbits close to the sun.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
It is estimated that the Shadow Object is around five to ten miles in diameter. Since it is somewhat close to the sun the manifestation of its penumbra upon the moon appears as a magnified projection. This is similar to how during a shadow puppet show your hand's shadow can make a large magnified projection upon your bedroom wall as you move it closer to the flashlight.
From The Lunar Eclipse (http://wiki.tfes.org/The_Lunar_Eclipse)

This is my interpretation of that geometry. In this diagram the size of the objects has been enlarged (or they would be almost invisible), but the locations are approximately to scale:

[image now lost]

With the "shadow object" so small, it is quite impossible for the it to cast any significant shadow on the moon. Almost all of the sunlight will shine around it.

If my interpretation of the geometry or light paths is incorrect, I would love to be informed, but please no massive refraction or magnification in the atmoplane, there is no atmoplane 5,000 km up!

So, I claim that "the Wiki" explanation of the Lunar Eclipse is completely incorrect, so what is the true cause of a Lunar Eclipse.

Some will I ask why I am asking the same question over and over. The answer to that is simple - it has not yet been answered.

[1] If the "shadow object" can never be seen, how was the inclination of its orbit determined, for we are told "Its orbital plane is tilted at an angle of about 5°10' to the sun's orbital plane"?
I can guess, that's simply been "borrowed" from the measured orbital inclination of the moon by astronomers!
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: edby on November 19, 2018, 12:22:26 PM
The wiki links to an excellent post by Scott Acton http://www.personalityresearch.org/metatheory/flatearth.html He points out that the scientific method of falsification is a modus tollens argument of the following form:

If H (and auxiliary assumptions A1, A2 etc), then C
But C is false
Therefore H is false.

However as Acton points out, the argument is invalid, since it could be one of the auxiliary assumptions that is false. Examples of such auxiliary assumptions are as follows
Quote
First, we assume that the sun gives the moon its light. Second, we assume that the earth and not another celestial body intervenes between the sun and the moon to cause the lunar eclipse. Third, we assume that the behavior of light is the same in outer space as it is on earth. Fourth, we assume that the rotation of the earth has no effect on the shape of the shadow cast by the earth upon the moon. Fifth, we assume that the shadow cast by the sun is not obscured by light from other heavenly bodies, such as the stars. On the theoretical side, we assume a theory of optics that would allow us to tell the difference between a curved and flat shadow.

To avoid any confusion, Acton does not believe in Flat Earth, nor is he arguing for it. He is pointing out that science is more complicated than we imagine. It relies on a large network of auxiliary assumptions (such as light travelling in a straight line in a vacuum) that have accreted over time, and which scientists unthinkingly assume. Many of these assumptions will be mutually reinforcing. Furthermore, any challenge to any one of them will likely require a much more complex and arbitrary set of assumptions that violates Ockham's principle.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: LoveScience on November 19, 2018, 12:26:45 PM
Quote
The shadow object is never seen because it orbits close to the sun.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
It is estimated that the Shadow Object is around five to ten miles in diameter. Since it is somewhat close to the sun the manifestation of its penumbra upon the moon appears as a magnified projection. This is similar to how during a shadow puppet show your hand's shadow can make a large magnified projection upon your bedroom wall as you move it closer to the flashlight.

If an object of just a few miles diameter was orbiting close the Sun there is absolutely no way its shadow would ever reach Earth! It's apparent size from Earth would be so small that we wouldn't even notice it, let alone any shadow from it.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: edby on November 19, 2018, 01:30:36 PM
Quote
The shadow object is never seen because it orbits close to the sun.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
It is estimated that the Shadow Object is around five to ten miles in diameter. Since it is somewhat close to the sun the manifestation of its penumbra upon the moon appears as a magnified projection. This is similar to how during a shadow puppet show your hand's shadow can make a large magnified projection upon your bedroom wall as you move it closer to the flashlight.

If an object of just a few miles diameter was orbiting close the Sun there is absolutely no way its shadow would ever reach Earth! It's apparent size from Earth would be so small that we wouldn't even notice it, let alone any shadow from it.
Remember in FE the sun is much close to the earth, and is much smaller than the orthodox view would have it.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: LoveScience on November 19, 2018, 01:40:24 PM
Of course  :-B And far be it for me to suggest any different. As far as I know (and no, I haven't personally measured it) the Sun has a diameter of 1.5 million km give or take a few and a volume of one million times the volume of Earth.

Sorry!  make that 1,39 million km.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: JCM on November 19, 2018, 01:44:55 PM
The moon can still be five degrees off from the ecliptic. FEH says the sun and moon are similar in size, 32 miles in diameter I believe.  For such small objects, over such a huge object the size of the earth, the two absolutely have to follow each other around or else the solar eclipses would rarely ever happen.  THis would require them to have the same orbit with the moon slightly off kilter by 5 degrees. This would require the moon to shift North towards Tropic of Cancer till June 21 then south towards Tropic of Capricorn till December 21 just like the Sun.  Solar eclipses have occurred every single month but not consecutively hence the needed 5 degree angle of inclination off the same orbit of the sun for FEH to work.

There is less then zero explanation for how the moon is able to cause even a solar eclipse in FEH that matches the simplest observation of the moon orbit for moon and sun 32 miles in diameter and near the earth.  If the FE wiki wants to claim the moon causes solar eclipses, are both very small at 32 miles or whatever in diameter, then the FE wiki has to explain why the moon doesn’t follow the same orbit just off kilter by 5 degrees.    This should be incredibly easy to prove if it were true and would be actual evidence of FEH beyond it just looks flat.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: LoveScience on November 19, 2018, 01:55:22 PM
The true size of the Sun and the Moon have been known for a long time.  Not theory, known fact. Even back in the days of Aristarchus (310 -230BC) he was able to deduce by simple interpretation of his naked eye observations that the Sun was much further away (and therefore much bigger) than the Moon.

He wasn't able to put any accurate figures on the proportions etc for obvious reasons but at least his interpretation was consistent with observation. He also used this information to draw an impressively accurate schematic of how a lunar eclipse happens.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: RonJ on November 19, 2018, 04:18:37 PM
Take a look at the Astronomers Without Borders website.  They seem to believe in the Zetetic methods.  Just ordinary people trying to use simple equipment to observe things with the human eye.  Unfortunately some of their observations don't seem to match the flat earth theory.  I believe that they did a measurement of the distance to the moon recently using simple parallax methods that showed a lot longer distance than 3000 miles.  Perhaps it would be a good idea for the Flat Earth Society to team up with the Astronomers Without Borders.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: TomInAustin on November 19, 2018, 05:15:03 PM

You do realize you are arguing with a round earther right?   He is just really good at processing what he has read and heard here.   No one owes you diagrams, explanations,  etc.

I disagree.  Their own FEH wiki states that the moon is seen blocking the sun for all of the solar eclipses throughout the year.  Their own wiki also shows the sun shifting north and south throughout the year towards the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. In order for the moon to make the solar eclipses it too obviously has to follow the same trajectories as the sun or else the eclipses would only happen when the sun crossed into the moons orbit (so only a small fraction of the year and only during those weeks or months).

The moons path looks nothing like the suns perfectly predictable path shifting north then south, the predictability of the solar eclipses requires the moon to follow the sun to make such eclipses if near the earth.  If the moon doesn’t follow the suns path as it would need to for the eclipses, it is just more evidence the sun and moon are NOT near us destroying a major component of FEH.

I totally agree with the obvious issues with moon and sun orbits in FE but that does not change what I said about no one owing diagrams or explanations.  This is their house.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: LoveScience on November 19, 2018, 05:39:30 PM
Quote
I believe that they did a measurement of the distance to the moon recently using simple parallax methods that showed a lot longer distance than 3000 miles

Just a bit longer!  The distance to the Moon (average) has been measured by laser ranging among other methods and is just over 250,000 miles or 384,400km in metric. About 1.5 seconds light travelling time.

The Moons orbit is elliptical so the Earth to Moon distance does vary over a month (perigee and apogee). The Media like to use the term Super Moon when the full Moon is at perigee.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: RonJ on November 19, 2018, 09:44:03 PM
Of course that's all true.  I believe it was in 1946 there was a government project to bounce radio signals off the moon.  That project was successful and you could easily see that the distance was much farther than 3000 miles.  The idea wasn't to show the distance to the moon, that's been known for 100's of years, it was to see if the moon could be used for useful communications purposes. At that time, with the radio equipment available then, the moon wasn't all that practical  to use.  Today private individuals own radio equipment that is used to bounce signals off the moon and amateur radio operators do so on a regular basis as a hobby.  Yes, there are several laser reflectors left on the surface of the moon and there are observatories that measure the earth-moon distance down to the centimeter on a regular basis.  That goes against the 'morals' of this site because NASA didn't really 'send a man to the moon'.  If they did, it would bust things wide open and knock over the 'rice bowl'.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 19, 2018, 10:12:43 PM
So, thought occurred. You guys were wondering how the moon gets between sun and Earth for solar eclipses, pointing out the sun moves between the two tropics. Well, what if the moon does too (or at least close)?

FEH already posits that the moon moves up and down in altitude over the course of the month to create the phases of the moon. Well, this would normally create differences in where the moon sets/rises throughout the month no? What if the moon ALSO shifts it's 'position' North South throughout this time as well. Thus keeping it appearing to set and rise from about the same location through the month. This would also allow it to cross, not the suns path, but the light from the sun to various parts of the flat Earth at various times, depending on where the sun was in its cycle in comparison to the moon. Obviously I can't model this out, as we'd need an accurate map of the flat Earth to even begin, but it seems reasonable to me.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 19, 2018, 10:47:38 PM
So, thought occurred. You guys were wondering how the moon gets between sun and Earth for solar eclipses, pointing out the sun moves between the two tropics. Well, what if the moon does too (or at least close)?

FEH already posits that the moon moves up and down in altitude over the course of the month to create the phases of the moon. Well, this would normally create differences in where the moon sets/rises throughout the month no? What if the moon ALSO shifts it's 'position' North South throughout this time as well. Thus keeping it appearing to set and rise from about the same location through the month. This would also allow it to cross, not the suns path, but the light from the sun to various parts of the flat Earth at various times, depending on where the sun was in its cycle in comparison to the moon. Obviously I can't model this out, as we'd need an accurate map of the flat Earth to even begin, but it seems reasonable to me.
Nice. That's what I was looking for.
FET would need a diagram,(with mathematical calculations showing the distances between sun&moon, moon&earth, earth&sun),  that showed linear shadows that correlate with real world observation. Also how, where and possible time lapses of their proposed paths.
I wasn't aware that FET had figures that show the Moon at a lower altitude, at some point, than the Sun.
Could you link me to information?
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 19, 2018, 11:11:58 PM
So, thought occurred. You guys were wondering how the moon gets between sun and Earth for solar eclipses, pointing out the sun moves between the two tropics. Well, what if the moon does too (or at least close)?

FEH already posits that the moon moves up and down in altitude over the course of the month to create the phases of the moon. Well, this would normally create differences in where the moon sets/rises throughout the month no? What if the moon ALSO shifts it's 'position' North South throughout this time as well. Thus keeping it appearing to set and rise from about the same location through the month. This would also allow it to cross, not the suns path, but the light from the sun to various parts of the flat Earth at various times, depending on where the sun was in its cycle in comparison to the moon. Obviously I can't model this out, as we'd need an accurate map of the flat Earth to even begin, but it seems reasonable to me.
Nice. That's what I was looking for.
FET would need a diagram,(with mathematical calculations showing the distances between sun&moon, moon&earth, earth&sun),  that showed linear shadows that correlate with real world observation. Also how, where and possible time lapses of their proposed paths.
I wasn't aware that FET had figures that show the Moon at a lower altitude, at some point, than the Sun.
Could you link me to information?
I don't know that they do for sure, the up and down motion of the moon is one of the methods by which it's been proposed that the phases of the moon occur. Combined with this idea, and the inexactness often cited due to 'perspective effects' I've always been under the impression the 3k miles high is a bit more of a rough estimate than anything else (outside of a few specific individuals). I believe the other site has a thread where someone (Brotherhood of the Dome?) had a list of observations and laid out his math on how he put the sun at least at 5800 something km (he actually decided on a relatively precise altitude). But his math appeared to have at least some bit of 'fudging' with a relatively unexplained extra figure to make everything line up. At least he never explained it that I saw.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: RonJ on November 20, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
All the math with the moon and sun above the earth really can't work no matter what they do unless it has an energy source to change the orbits.  Without gravity, which isn't possible in this arrangement, the sun and moon would require a retro-rocket to keep them in a circular orbit and would also be needed to change orbits.  Since the earth is under constant acceleration upwards (in place of gravity) the sun and moon have to move in this manner also.  I've speculated that the dark energy supplies this but have gotten no answer on this subject.  Dark energy above the earths surface would obviously be detectable as a force that could accelerate mass.  How could this be explained?  If somehow dark energy is the force that keeps the sun and moon in orbit it would also have to be smart.  It would have to know when to change the orbits of the sun and moon on a regular basis and not just supply a constant push.  All of this is a tall order.  The math for all this would be an interesting sight.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 20, 2018, 08:47:59 PM
Another huge fallacy in FET.
Let us look at a few factors and see what happens if we try to line them up.
Someone can do a chart if they'd like based on what I'm going to describe, especially if you can't picture it in your mind. or a simple paper, pencil, match stick model experiment.
Paper to represent the disc earth, pencil to represent distance moon and sun are apart from each other and match stick to represent the distance the moon & sun are up from the surface of the earth. FET presents tthis as about 3,000 miles.
Note that the united states is nearly 3,000 miles from coast to coast.
Match the match stick to scale the USA and scale the rest of the flat earth (paper) accordingly.
Note where the USA is in relation to FE maps.
Trim the pencil to match the distance that the sun & moon are apart from each other as represented by FET.
Now place the match stick at the north pole straight up and the center of the pencil on the tip of the match stick.
Now try to imagine  how, or demonstrate how or what it would take to bring the moon in line with the sun to cast an ecliptic shadow of the moon on the earth at the united states.
That's the realities of the moon and sun being only 3,000 miles up from the surface of the earth and, I'm guessing, about 8,000 mile apart.
Also think about how close to the earth a shadow abject would have to be to cast a shadow on the moon.
Also how easy it would be to go to the moon if it were only 3,000 miles away.

I'm in the middle of something right now, I'll edit this later if needed

Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 20, 2018, 09:07:32 PM
Another huge fallacy in FET.
Let us look at a few factors and see what happens if we try to line them up.
Someone can do a chart if they'd like based on what I'm going to describe, especially if you can't picture it in your mind. or a simple paper, pencil, match stick model experiment.
Paper to represent the disc earth, pencil to represent distance moon and sun are apart from each other and match stick to represent the distance the moon & sun are up from the surface of the earth. FET presents tthis as about 3,000 miles.
Note that the united states is nearly 3,000 miles from coast to coast.
Match the match stick to scale the USA and scale the rest of the flat earth (paper) accordingly.
Note where the USA is in relation to FE maps.
Trim the pencil to match the distance that the sun & moon are apart from each other as represented by FET.
Now place the match stick at the north pole straight up and the center of the pencil on the tip of the match stick.
Now try to imagine  how, or demonstrate how or what it would take to bring the moon in line with the sun to cast an ecliptic shadow of the moon on the earth at the united states.
That's the realities of the moon and sun being only 3,000 miles up from the surface of the earth and, I'm guessing, about 8,000 mile apart.
Also think about how close to the earth a shadow abject would have to be to cast a shadow on the moon.
Also how easy it would be to go to the moon if it were only 3,000 miles away.

I'm in the middle of something right now, I'll edit this later if needed

Why do you keep trying to put the sun/moon on opposite sides of the Earth from one another when you make these thought experiments? It takes the sun 24 hours to complete one rotation around the plane of the Earth. It takes the moon something like 25 hours. From waning crescent to waxing crescent (approx) the sun/moon are on the same 'quadrant' of the FE. How does this put them 8,000 miles apart?
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 20, 2018, 10:16:16 PM
Another huge fallacy in FET.
Let us look at a few factors and see what happens if we try to line them up.
Someone can do a chart if they'd like based on what I'm going to describe, especially if you can't picture it in your mind. or a simple paper, pencil, match stick model experiment.
Paper to represent the disc earth, pencil to represent distance moon and sun are apart from each other and match stick to represent the distance the moon & sun are up from the surface of the earth. FET presents tthis as about 3,000 miles.
Note that the united states is nearly 3,000 miles from coast to coast.
Match the match stick to scale the USA and scale the rest of the flat earth (paper) accordingly.
Note where the USA is in relation to FE maps.
Trim the pencil to match the distance that the sun & moon are apart from each other as represented by FET.
Now place the match stick at the north pole straight up and the center of the pencil on the tip of the match stick.
Now try to imagine  how, or demonstrate how or what it would take to bring the moon in line with the sun to cast an ecliptic shadow of the moon on the earth at the united states.
That's the realities of the moon and sun being only 3,000 miles up from the surface of the earth and, I'm guessing, about 8,000 mile apart.
Also think about how close to the earth a shadow abject would have to be to cast a shadow on the moon.
Also how easy it would be to go to the moon if it were only 3,000 miles away.

I'm in the middle of something right now, I'll edit this later if needed

Why do you keep trying to put the sun/moon on opposite sides of the Earth from one another when you make these thought experiments? It takes the sun 24 hours to complete one rotation around the plane of the Earth. It takes the moon something like 25 hours. From waning crescent to waxing crescent (approx) the sun/moon are on the same 'quadrant' of the FE. How does this put them 8,000 miles apart?
8,000 miles was a guess as stated.
Judging by the overall distance of from edge to edge on FE models, the path the moon and sun appear to circle the disc, is how I based my guess without calculating. If someone wants to calculate a more accurate distance go for it.
Using the difference in time of rotation obviously would being the moon close to the sun at some point. This isn't even in question in my proposal. As my proposed experiment has to have that happen to bring the sun and moon close enough together to line up in such a manner as to cast a shadow on the earths surface, especially on the USA which on the that FE map would place the moon and sun closer to the center than anything FET shows on any of their mapping.

Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: LoveScience on November 22, 2018, 11:42:19 PM
Quote
It takes the sun 24 hours to complete one rotation around the plane of the Earth

Sorry... no idea where you get this idea from... please explain.  It takes the Earth 24 hours (23hrs 56m and 4sec relative to the stars which is the sidereal day) to rotate on its axis as it orbits the Sun.  The sidereal day is 4 minutes shorter than the mean solar day which is why the constellations vary with the season.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 23, 2018, 12:41:16 AM
Quote
It takes the sun 24 hours to complete one rotation around the plane of the Earth

Sorry... no idea where you get this idea from... please explain.  It takes the Earth 24 hours (23hrs 56m and 4sec relative to the stars which is the sidereal day) to rotate on its axis as it orbits the Sun.  The sidereal day is 4 minutes shorter than the mean solar day which is why the constellations vary with the season.
There's nothing accurate about FET. The sun circling a dics is one of the worst flawed concepts FET has. 3,000 miles up from the surface of earth.

I spent countless hrs reading and searching the internet for a scale model that depicts, accurately, the size/distance edge to edge of flat earth with the sun 3,000 miles from the surface. I could nothing on FES wiki or anywhere else. You know why? Because none of FET would work with the sun and moon so close to the surface of the earth.

So tell me LoveScience what are some of the techniques and tools we use to measure the speed in which the Earth rotate on it's axis? Probably should start a new thread for this question.

Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 23, 2018, 03:04:35 AM
Quote
It takes the sun 24 hours to complete one rotation around the plane of the Earth

Sorry... no idea where you get this idea from... please explain.  It takes the Earth 24 hours (23hrs 56m and 4sec relative to the stars which is the sidereal day) to rotate on its axis as it orbits the Sun.  The sidereal day is 4 minutes shorter than the mean solar day which is why the constellations vary with the season.
The sun takes 24 hours to return to it's initial starting point in the sky. This is true even on RE. I'm not sure what there is to explain....
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: LoveScience on November 23, 2018, 07:58:34 AM
Actually the real Sun takes an average of a little over 24 hours to complete two transits of the observers meridian.  That is why the Sun moves through the 12 constellations of the zodiac.  Technically that should be 13 as the ecliptic passes every so slightly through Ophiuchus as well.

It is the mean Sun (an imaginary Sun) which takes exactly 24 hours to complete two transits. It is the mean Sun that we base our clocks on. Owing to the elliptical orbit of the Earth the speed of the Sun along the ecliptic does vary slightly through the year an this is compensated for when it comes to reading Sun dials for example by applying the equation of time.

The Sun does not remain exactly stationary in space (nothing does) but is rocked slightly due to the planets around the gravtiational centre (barycentre)
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 23, 2018, 08:06:00 AM
Actually the real Sun takes an average of a little over 24 hours to complete two transits of the observers meridian.  That is why the Sun moves through the 12 constellations of the zodiac.  Technically that should be 13 as the ecliptic passes every so slightly through Ophiuchus as well.

It is the mean Sun (an imaginary Sun) which takes exactly 24 hours to complete two transits. It is the mean Sun that we base our clocks on. Owing to the elliptical orbit of the Earth the speed of the Sun along the ecliptic does vary slightly through the year an this is compensated for when it comes to reading Sun dials for example by applying the equation of time.

The Sun does not remain exactly stationary in space (nothing does) but is rocked slightly due to the planets around the gravtiational centre (barycentre)
Correct. One Solar Day is 24 hours. Which is how long the sun takes to complete one transit around the flat Earth. I'm struggling to understand how this is a hard concept to grasp? The 'mean sun' as you put it, isn't imaginary on a flat Earth. It's the time it takes the sun to travel one rotation around the plane. The stars then move at a different speed, either because that's the speed of the 'dome' rotating above, or some other reason depending on the exact FE hypothesis being discussed. Which results in the moving of the sun through the constellations.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: LoveScience on November 23, 2018, 11:18:02 AM
The way you describe it is a hard concept to grasp because it is wrong.

The Sun rotates around a common centre of gravity as I previously described. The location of that centre of gravity (point around which the two bodies rotate or orbit) depends on the mass ratio between the bodies concerned. If you have two bodies of equal mass then the centre of gravity is mid way between the two bodies. The so-called dumbbell situation.

The Sun is much more massive than the Earth (1 solar mass = 99% of the solar system mass) and so the centre of gravity is shifted proportionally towards the more massive body. In the case of the Earth Sun pairng, the centre of gravity lies well within the volume of the Sun itself just beyond the solar core. The centre of gravity between the Sun and Jupiter by comparison lies just beyond the visible surface of the Sun which we call the photosphere.

If I am misunderstanding what you mean by saying the Sun completes one transit of a flat Earth in 24 hours then I apologise but it doesn't sound quite right to me. The 24 hour part is one mean solar day as I previous said.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 23, 2018, 04:57:53 PM
The way you describe it is a hard concept to grasp because it is wrong.

The Sun rotates around a common centre of gravity as I previously described. The location of that centre of gravity (point around which the two bodies rotate or orbit) depends on the mass ratio between the bodies concerned. If you have two bodies of equal mass then the centre of gravity is mid way between the two bodies. The so-called dumbbell situation.

The Sun is much more massive than the Earth (1 solar mass = 99% of the solar system mass) and so the centre of gravity is shifted proportionally towards the more massive body. In the case of the Earth Sun pairng, the centre of gravity lies well within the volume of the Sun itself just beyond the solar core. The centre of gravity between the Sun and Jupiter by comparison lies just beyond the visible surface of the Sun which we call the photosphere.

If I am misunderstanding what you mean by saying the Sun completes one transit of a flat Earth in 24 hours then I apologise but it doesn't sound quite right to me. The 24 hour part is one mean solar day as I previous said.
It's only wrong under the RE paradigm. Under the FE hypothesis the sun is only about 32 miles across, and 3000 miles above the flat plane of the Earth. It takes 24 hours (the duration of one mean solar day and will have some slight variance just like is observed) for the sun to complete a single rotation around whichever pole it's circling. This creates the 24 hour day.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: RonJ on November 23, 2018, 09:49:35 PM
The main problem is that the sun has to change orbits throughout the year.  Anytime you do this will require that the Sun has some kind of retro-rocket that can fire to get it into a different orbit.  As far as that goes, it will need a retro-rocket to fire just to stay in orbit.  Of course the Sun and Moon will have to stay above the earth that's being constantly accelerated (no gravity).  That means they will have to figure out how to move vertically as well. The FET paradigm doesn't work.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 23, 2018, 10:12:59 PM
The main problem is that the sun has to change orbits throughout the year.  Anytime you do this will require that the Sun has some kind of retro-rocket that can fire to get it into a different orbit.  As far as that goes, it will need a retro-rocket to fire just to stay in orbit.  Of course the Sun and Moon will have to stay above the earth that's being constantly accelerated (no gravity).  That means they will have to figure out how to move vertically as well. The FET paradigm doesn't work.
Here, let me give FET some ammunition.
Retro rockets= sun flares? Solar flares
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: RonJ on November 24, 2018, 03:44:04 AM
It would have to be a 'smart sun' as well.  The application would have to be good enough to know when to change orbits.  With all the folks out there watching the sun, any small change, no matter how minor would be noticed by someone.  Any 'compu-sun' would have to be completely reliable and the whole system couldn't malfunction, even once in a couple of thousand years.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 24, 2018, 04:45:52 AM
It would have to be a 'smart sun' as well.  The application would have to be good enough to know when to change orbits.  With all the folks out there watching the sun, any small change, no matter how minor would be noticed by someone.  Any 'compu-sun' would have to be completely reliable and the whole system couldn't malfunction, even once in a couple of thousand years.
Also lets not forget the Moon? Since it obviously does not have solar flares it would have to have a type of propulsion that was invisible. Gases or air? This would explain heavy wind storms, tornado etc. and the solar flares at only 3,000 miles away might account for all the fires burning California up?
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: LoveScience on November 24, 2018, 09:32:04 PM
Quote
Under the FE hypothesis the sun is only about 32 miles across, and 3000 miles above the flat plane of the Earth

What utter rubbish.  The Sun has been very accurately measured to be in the order of 865,000 miles across and on average 92,960,000 miles away from Earth. These are facts regardless of what the FE hypothesis says. Explain to us exactly how these figures are reached. By that I mean the 32 mile diameter and 3000 mile distance of course... I await in anticipation!
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 24, 2018, 09:51:14 PM
Quote
Under the FE hypothesis the sun is only about 32 miles across, and 3000 miles above the flat plane of the Earth

What utter rubbish.  The Sun has been very accurately measured to be in the order of 865,000 miles across and on average 92,960,000 miles away from Earth. These are facts regardless of what the FE hypothesis says. Explain to us exactly how these figures are reached. By that I mean the 32 mile diameter and 3000 mile distance of course... I await in anticipation!
You'll get much farther with these basic questions if you make sure to peek through the wiki for the record. https://wiki.tfes.org/Distance_to_the_Sun Distance and size of the sun is (once again) a natural result of the Earth being flat. If one assumes the Earth is flat, it's easy to see most explanations for things have been....'created' in order to answer what is happening. Observations as well are generally tabulated under the assumption of this paradigm imo. But we're starting to get a bit beyond the thread topic here.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: MattyWS on November 24, 2018, 10:21:46 PM
Quote
Under the FE hypothesis the sun is only about 32 miles across, and 3000 miles above the flat plane of the Earth

What utter rubbish.  The Sun has been very accurately measured to be in the order of 865,000 miles across and on average 92,960,000 miles away from Earth. These are facts regardless of what the FE hypothesis says. Explain to us exactly how these figures are reached. By that I mean the 32 mile diameter and 3000 mile distance of course... I await in anticipation!
You'll get much farther with these basic questions if you make sure to peek through the wiki for the record. https://wiki.tfes.org/Distance_to_the_Sun Distance and size of the sun is (once again) a natural result of the Earth being flat. If one assumes the Earth is flat, it's easy to see most explanations for things have been....'created' in order to answer what is happening. Observations as well are generally tabulated under the assumption of this paradigm imo. But we're starting to get a bit beyond the thread topic here.
I too am interested in the 32 miles value, since my own maths didn't get that but I am of course basing it on the visual shrinking of the sun relative to moving it closer to the earth based on the difference between the globe earth sun and flat earth sun distances.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 24, 2018, 11:15:37 PM
Quote
Under the FE hypothesis the sun is only about 32 miles across, and 3000 miles above the flat plane of the Earth

What utter rubbish.  The Sun has been very accurately measured to be in the order of 865,000 miles across and on average 92,960,000 miles away from Earth. These are facts regardless of what the FE hypothesis says. Explain to us exactly how these figures are reached. By that I mean the 32 mile diameter and 3000 mile distance of course... I await in anticipation!
You'll get much farther with these basic questions if you make sure to peek through the wiki for the record. https://wiki.tfes.org/Distance_to_the_Sun Distance and size of the sun is (once again) a natural result of the Earth being flat. If one assumes the Earth is flat, it's easy to see most explanations for things have been....'created' in order to answer what is happening. Observations as well are generally tabulated under the assumption of this paradigm imo. But we're starting to get a bit beyond the thread topic here.
I too am interested in the 32 miles value, since my own maths didn't get that but I am of course basing it on the visual shrinking of the sun relative to moving it closer to the earth based on the difference between the globe earth sun and flat earth sun distances.
By all means continue this line of questioning as it is retentive to the questions I proposed in the opening OP.
One question was how does the moon get between the sun and  FE, to cause the phenomena we see?
Getting to the bottom of how they calculate the size and distance of the sun would help to show how this would work, or not work.
Again I propose looking at the distance of 3,000 miles above the surface of the earth creates enormous problems solar eclipse and much much more.
I suspect this is why no more FET have chimed in with anymore fabricated evidence because even tey now how utterly ridiculous this idea is.
Title: Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
Post by: junker on November 25, 2018, 08:07:45 PM
Quote
Under the FE hypothesis the sun is only about 32 miles across, and 3000 miles above the flat plane of the Earth

What utter rubbish.  The Sun has been very accurately measured to be in the order of 865,000 miles across and on average 92,960,000 miles away from Earth. These are facts regardless of what the FE hypothesis says. Explain to us exactly how these figures are reached. By that I mean the 32 mile diameter and 3000 mile distance of course... I await in anticipation!
You'll get much farther with these basic questions if you make sure to peek through the wiki for the record. https://wiki.tfes.org/Distance_to_the_Sun Distance and size of the sun is (once again) a natural result of the Earth being flat. If one assumes the Earth is flat, it's easy to see most explanations for things have been....'created' in order to answer what is happening. Observations as well are generally tabulated under the assumption of this paradigm imo. But we're starting to get a bit beyond the thread topic here.
I too am interested in the 32 miles value, since my own maths didn't get that but I am of course basing it on the visual shrinking of the sun relative to moving it closer to the earth based on the difference between the globe earth sun and flat earth sun distances.
By all means continue this line of questioning as it is retentive to the questions I proposed in the opening OP.
One question was how does the moon get between the sun and  FE, to cause the phenomena we see?
Getting to the bottom of how they calculate the size and distance of the sun would help to show how this would work, or not work.
Again I propose looking at the distance of 3,000 miles above the surface of the earth creates enormous problems solar eclipse and much much more.
I suspect this is why no more FET have chimed in with anymore fabricated evidence because even tey now how utterly ridiculous this idea is.

I suggest you spend some time learning the model instead of just telling everyone how round the earth is. There are plenty of resources here to do so. Your constant complaining about how you disagree with FET has no place in the upper fora, since it is obvious you haven’t read the basics.

Last warning. Next one will be a few day vacation to read the rules, as well as the wiki/faq.

EDIT- I forgot how many warnings you were on, and a previous ban. So go ahead and take a week off this time.