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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2018, 10:36:28 PM »
An object that is circular in nature moves between the sun and the moon during a lunar eclipse.
I know it's beside the point so far but I'm sure once FE'ers come to realise it could actually be the earth causing the shadow on the moon I can just see them shouting "but it's a circular shadow so the earth must be a disk!". Casting a circular shadow doesn't have to be a disk though, the object in question could also be cylindrical, cone, spherical or even a rhombicosidodecahedron. The chances are though, since we've observed moons and planets to be spherical it's safe to say what ever the object is, is most likely also spherical.

We have 3D simulations of solar systems using the maths that predict the movement of celestial bodies, we can use these 3D simulations to show the earth being between the sun and moon and casting the shadow. Can anyone here run 3D a simulation of a flat earth version of a lunar eclipse while predicting celestial bodies time and locations perfectly?

Here's a few cool ones I found, just for fun

https://theskylive.com/3dsolarsystem
http://project-metis.com/SolarSystem/
https://www.solarsystemscope.com/

Those are just cartoons. The only reason software such as Stellarium and Celestia can predict the positions of planets in the sky with any accuracy is because the prediction is actually based on ancient pattern-based methods. Planetary prediction, or any other astronomical prediction, is not modeled based on Newtonian or Einsteinian physics or the Heliocentric Solar System. Read more at https://wiki.tfes.org/Astronomical_Prediction_Based_on_Patterns
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

MattyWS

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2018, 10:46:56 PM »
It's unfair to say the three body problem is completely unsolvable, sure enough mathematicians can get extremely close to the calculations they need by starting off breaking the equations down into simpler problems, then to add small corrections along the way toward the end result. Mostly it's not 100% accurate (because you're including tiny corrections to get the result) but there are so many variables that make such calculations with the sun, earth and moon extremely difficult. Considering you have to take into account in this instance every other object with significant mass in the solar system and maybe even outside the solar system, since we are after all in and apart of the galaxy, there are bound to be an immeasurable amount of variables to get 100% accurate mathematical equations, hence corrections. As you mentioned the universe is chaotic indeed. I'm dumbing this down to explain a little bit because perturbation theory could be hard to understand for everyone. I've heard someone once use the term "mathemagics" as a way of claiming people use impossibly complex maths to trick people into believing them. It makes me sad that not understanding maths could make someone think it all must be fake. :( 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 10:54:02 PM by MattyWS »

MattyWS

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2018, 10:50:48 PM »
An object that is circular in nature moves between the sun and the moon during a lunar eclipse.
I know it's beside the point so far but I'm sure once FE'ers come to realise it could actually be the earth causing the shadow on the moon I can just see them shouting "but it's a circular shadow so the earth must be a disk!". Casting a circular shadow doesn't have to be a disk though, the object in question could also be cylindrical, cone, spherical or even a rhombicosidodecahedron. The chances are though, since we've observed moons and planets to be spherical it's safe to say what ever the object is, is most likely also spherical.

We have 3D simulations of solar systems using the maths that predict the movement of celestial bodies, we can use these 3D simulations to show the earth being between the sun and moon and casting the shadow. Can anyone here run 3D a simulation of a flat earth version of a lunar eclipse while predicting celestial bodies time and locations perfectly?

Here's a few cool ones I found, just for fun

https://theskylive.com/3dsolarsystem
http://project-metis.com/SolarSystem/
https://www.solarsystemscope.com/

Those are just cartoons. The only reason software such as Stellarium and Celestia can predict the positions of planets in the sky with any accuracy is because the prediction is actually based on ancient pattern-based methods. Planetary prediction, or any other astronomical prediction, is not modeled based on Newtonian or Einsteinian physics or the Heliocentric Solar System. Read more at https://wiki.tfes.org/Astronomical_Prediction_Based_on_Patterns
Yes, to clarify when I said for fun I did mean just that. But in one of them you could probably line the planets up to particular times and see how the sun, earth and moon are positioned to get a possible example of eclipses, it's a nice visual representation.

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Offline stack

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2018, 10:52:55 PM »
Aside from n-body issues and predictive versus calculated astronomy, what is the shadow object? Where does it go between eclipses? How come no one has ever seen it other than during an eclipse? Literally no one can verify/explain it's existence.

Lastly, is the shadow object the only explanation for the lunar eclipse FET has?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Curiosity File

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2018, 12:48:05 AM »
Aside from n-body issues and predictive versus calculated astronomy, what is the shadow object? Where does it go between eclipses? How come no one has ever seen it other than during an eclipse? Literally no one can verify/explain it's existence.

Lastly, is the shadow object the only explanation for the lunar eclipse FET has?
Thanks for keeping this thread on track.
I'd like to also point out that it's completely impossible to calculate or predict when this phenomena will occur if the proposed, by FET, body is, invisible, have no idea how fast it's moving, it's size, where it's at at any given point in time, the path it travels etc. Yet we predict it with to the minute and second accuracy.
   

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Offline markjo

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2018, 02:31:45 AM »
Aside from n-body issues and predictive versus calculated astronomy, what is the shadow object? Where does it go between eclipses? How come no one has ever seen it other than during an eclipse? Literally no one can verify/explain it's existence.

Lastly, is the shadow object the only explanation for the lunar eclipse FET has?
Thanks for keeping this thread on track.
I'd like to also point out that it's completely impossible to calculate or predict when this phenomena will occur if the proposed, by FET, body is, invisible, have no idea how fast it's moving, it's size, where it's at at any given point in time, the path it travels etc. Yet we predict it with to the minute and second accuracy.
FE eclipses are predicted by carefully noting that they come in patterns over the course of about 18 years known as Saros cycles.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Curiosity File

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2018, 02:43:33 AM »
Aside from n-body issues and predictive versus calculated astronomy, what is the shadow object? Where does it go between eclipses? How come no one has ever seen it other than during an eclipse? Literally no one can verify/explain it's existence.

Lastly, is the shadow object the only explanation for the lunar eclipse FET has?
Thanks for keeping this thread on track.
I'd like to also point out that it's completely impossible to calculate or predict when this phenomena will occur if the proposed, by FET, body is, invisible, have no idea how fast it's moving, it's size, where it's at at any given point in time, the path it travels etc. Yet we predict it with to the minute and second accuracy.
FE eclipses are predicted by carefully noting that they come in patterns over the course of about 18 years known as Saros cycles.
How can FET use a RE model that predicts this based on the orbit of the moon around the earth and the earth around the sun and points out that the earth gets between the sun&moon and moon between sun&earth?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 03:06:45 AM by Curiosity File »

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Offline markjo

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2018, 03:53:00 AM »
How can FET use a RE model that predicts this based on the orbit of the moon around the earth and the earth around the sun and points out that the earth gets between the sun&moon and moon between sun&earth?
They don't.  They just observed the timing of eclipses for a few hundred years and worked out the pattern.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Curiosity File

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2018, 04:20:11 AM »
How can FET use a RE model that predicts this based on the orbit of the moon around the earth and the earth around the sun and points out that the earth gets between the sun&moon and moon between sun&earth?
They don't.  They just observed the timing of eclipses for a few hundred years and worked out the pattern.
I suppose anybody could figure out the timing over hundreds of years, wouldn't matter what their beliefs were.
However the new FET movement is relatively young. The Saros families of cycles isn't. I believe dates back to  Babylon about 2,500 years ago which is about the time humanity started throwing out the idea the earth was flat, center of the universe etc. and figured out the earth was round, the moon orbited the earth and both moon and earth orbited the sun.
In any case none of this answers the questions I asked or the one Stack asked.
 "is the shadow object the only explanation for the lunar eclipse FET has?"
and
how does the earth get between the moon and sun in FET?   
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 05:00:46 AM by Curiosity File »

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Offline RonJ

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2018, 05:08:25 AM »
I do believe that the 3 body problem is mostly under control.  Euler, Lagrange, and Jacobi have found some general solutions to the problem.  A general (explicit) solution isn't really necessary these days anyway. You can calculate the orbital paths to as much precision as you have processing power and time available.  The numerical power of modern computers are very remarkable and you can use numerical series incorporating hundred or thousand of parameters to obtain any level of accuracy you need.  In the near future quantum computers will make the 3 body problem even more viable to solve in detail.  Don't be afraid. The heliocentric model does indeed work under Newtonian laws and the solar system won't be flying apart anytime soon.   
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

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Offline markjo

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2018, 05:36:50 AM »
In any case none of this answers the questions I asked or the one Stack asked.
 "is the shadow object the only explanation for the lunar eclipse FET has?"
The shadow object is one explanation.  I'm not sure, but I seem to recall some FE'ers thinking that the moon's self-luminous nature might have something to do with it.

and
how does the earth get between the moon and sun in FET?   
It doesn't.  End of story.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline stack

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2018, 06:08:19 AM »
At least from a Rowbotham perspective, yes, the shadow object is a must. He also swizzles in the self-luminous moon bit as well. I haven’t read ENAG Chapter XI In a while. But enlightening:

"From the facts and phenomena already advanced, we cannot draw any other conclusion than that the moon is obscured by some kind of semi-transparent body passing before it; and through which the luminous surface is visible: the luminosity changed in colour by the density of the intervening object. This conclusion is forced upon, us by the evidence; but it involves the admission that the moon shines with light of its own--that it is not a reflector of the sun's light, but absolutely self-luminous. Although this admission is logically compulsory, it will be useful and strictly Zetetic to collect all the evidence possible which bears upon it.”

The last line is a particular favorite, kind of a, “Logic demands this conclusion,’compulsory’, in fact, but here on in, I’ll pepper you with cherry picked phrases from philosophers, astronomers, greeks and scriptural references to cement this undeniable logical conclusion.” type of argument. Clever, that Rowbotham.

Bottom line, the shadow object argument as a requirement to explain a flat earth lunar eclipse is just that; a requirement. One necessary to get FET out of the earth “getting in the way” jam. It is literally not based on anything observable, testable, measurable…nothing. It doesn’t even pass the Zetetic sniff test. It is a ‘compulsory’ necessity in FET, manufactured to solve a problem in FET that doesn’t exist in RET.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Curiosity File

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2018, 06:08:44 AM »
I do believe that the 3 body problem is mostly under control.  Euler, Lagrange, and Jacobi have found some general solutions to the problem.  A general (explicit) solution isn't really necessary these days anyway. You can calculate the orbital paths to as much precision as you have processing power and time available.  The numerical power of modern computers are very remarkable and you can use numerical series incorporating hundred or thousand of parameters to obtain any level of accuracy you need.  In the near future quantum computers will make the 3 body problem even more viable to solve in detail.  Don't be afraid. The heliocentric model does indeed work under Newtonian laws and the solar system won't be flying apart anytime soon.
I agree and I was just reading something the other day about modern science and mathematics having some 1,200 new,"easy" solutions to end the 300 years of ponder over the hard to solve "three body problem". I love modern  science.   

Offline JCM

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2018, 06:48:15 AM »
How can FET use a RE model that predicts this based on the orbit of the moon around the earth and the earth around the sun and points out that the earth gets between the sun&moon and moon between sun&earth?
They don't.  They just observed the timing of eclipses for a few hundred years and worked out the pattern.

Who is this “they”?  The solar eclipses are viewed only on small sections relative to the size of the Earth at any one time, so who is keeping track of every solar eclipse in ancient times when they could only ever see a few in their lifetime?  Surely they would miss far more then they could see so how is a pattern made?  Also, the size, direction, length, width are different every time.  Claiming that the ancients could calculate the exact location where the eclipse is actually viewable  anywhere near the accuracy we have today is laughable.  Show me the table of solar eclipses the Europeans could see over 100 years compared to the ones they were unable to see and there still be a pattern they could predict both location, direction, and time of these events.

Curiosity File

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2018, 06:48:33 AM »
At least from a Rowbotham perspective, yes, the shadow object is a must. He also swizzles in the self-luminous moon bit as well. I haven’t read ENAG Chapter XI In a while. But enlightening:

"From the facts and phenomena already advanced, we cannot draw any other conclusion than that the moon is obscured by some kind of semi-transparent body passing before it; and through which the luminous surface is visible: the luminosity changed in colour by the density of the intervening object. This conclusion is forced upon, us by the evidence; but it involves the admission that the moon shines with light of its own--that it is not a reflector of the sun's light, but absolutely self-luminous. Although this admission is logically compulsory, it will be useful and strictly Zetetic to collect all the evidence possible which bears upon it.”

The last line is a particular favorite, kind of a, “Logic demands this conclusion,’compulsory’, in fact, but here on in, I’ll pepper you with cherry picked phrases from philosophers, astronomers, greeks and scriptural references to cement this undeniable logical conclusion.” type of argument. Clever, that Rowbotham.

Bottom line, the shadow object argument as a requirement to explain a flat earth lunar eclipse is just that; a requirement. One necessary to get FET out of the earth “getting in the way” jam. It is literally not based on anything observable, testable, measurable…nothing. It doesn’t even pass the Zetetic sniff test. It is a ‘compulsory’ necessity in FET, manufactured to solve a problem in FET that doesn’t exist in RET.

So FET can't put the earth between the moon and sun because that would kill all of FET models and hypothesis that they hold as evidence of a flat earth.
Now the problem of expiation from FET doubles when we put the moon between the earth and sun.
There's NO claiming hidden invisible objects casting shadows across the earth during solar eclipse because we physically observe the moon passing in front of the sun. Just another conundrum that orbits around flat earth.  FET

 
 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 06:52:49 AM by Curiosity File »

Offline JCM

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2018, 06:53:07 AM »
Will someone explain where the moon went when this shadow object passes in front of the sun?  Because we can track the path of the moon extremely accurately and this object is in its place right where the moon should be, directly in front of the sun!  A day later the moon is viewable again as a crescent on the other side of the sun right where we expect it to be...

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2018, 09:48:47 AM »
At least from a Rowbotham perspective, yes, the shadow object is a must. He also swizzles in the self-luminous moon bit as well. I haven’t read ENAG Chapter XI In a while. But enlightening:

"From the facts and phenomena already advanced, we cannot draw any other conclusion than that the moon is obscured by some kind of semi-transparent body passing before it; and through which the luminous surface is visible: the luminosity changed in colour by the density of the intervening object. This conclusion is forced upon, us by the evidence; but it involves the admission that the moon shines with light of its own--that it is not a reflector of the sun's light, but absolutely self-luminous. Although this admission is logically compulsory, it will be useful and strictly Zetetic to collect all the evidence possible which bears upon it.”

The last line is a particular favorite, kind of a, “Logic demands this conclusion,’compulsory’, in fact, but here on in, I’ll pepper you with cherry picked phrases from philosophers, astronomers, greeks and scriptural references to cement this undeniable logical conclusion.” type of argument. Clever, that Rowbotham.

Bottom line, the shadow object argument as a requirement to explain a flat earth lunar eclipse is just that; a requirement. One necessary to get FET out of the earth “getting in the way” jam. It is literally not based on anything observable, testable, measurable…nothing. It doesn’t even pass the Zetetic sniff test. It is a ‘compulsory’ necessity in FET, manufactured to solve a problem in FET that doesn’t exist in RET.

So FET can't put the earth between the moon and sun because that would kill all of FET models and hypothesis that they hold as evidence of a flat earth.
Now the problem of expiation from FET doubles when we put the moon between the earth and sun.
There's NO claiming hidden invisible objects casting shadows across the earth during solar eclipse because we physically observe the moon passing in front of the sun. Just another conundrum that orbits around flat earth.  FET
Will someone explain where the moon went when this shadow object passes in front of the sun?  Because we can track the path of the moon extremely accurately and this object is in its place right where the moon should be, directly in front of the sun!  A day later the moon is viewable again as a crescent on the other side of the sun right where we expect it to be...
I'm not sure where you two are getting this idea the shadow object does anything with solar eclipses. The moon causes them, just like in RET (except for one example over on the other forums who's pretty well ignored.) The shadow object only exists for lunar eclipses, and only because it's a requirement for the Flat Earth Hypothesis to get past stage 1 really.

Offline JCM

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2018, 03:45:56 PM »

I'm not sure where you two are getting this idea the shadow object does anything with solar eclipses. The moon causes them, just like in RET (except for one example over on the other forums who's pretty well ignored.) The shadow object only exists for lunar eclipses, and only because it's a requirement for the Flat Earth Hypothesis to get past stage 1 really.

I stand corrected, I have heard it “implied” the shadow object is responsible for both in many discussions on this forum.  If there was a shadow object, then why isn’t it causing solar eclipses is maybe the better question?  Also, the wiki on lunar eclipses and FEH states light is hitting the moon from the Sun through an object like the Earth with a less dense edge (like an atmosphere if it were the Earth but not the Earth)...?    Is that an admission the phases are caused by the side facing the sun?  If phases are caused by the Sun, FEH has no explanation for those phases appearance.  A spotlight Sun also isn’t shining towards the moon right?


MattyWS

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2018, 04:28:31 PM »
If the sun were a point light with less than enough reach to get visibly to the moon (or a spotlight) causing the day night/cycle on the FEH then the light also wouldn't reach the moon if it didn't reach the land under the moon. If it did reach the moon, light would also reach the land under the moon which means either it would always be day time on earth or the moon would almost never be lit up. The fact that the moon phases are obviously shading and lighting from the direction of the sun means we know the sunlight reaches the moon. You only need a decent camera with magnification to see the features on the moon when going through the phases shows the landscape of the moon.

here is an example of the moon features being lit up from what is quite obviously a light from one direction. This observation is clearly what to expect from an object being lit up from an external source of light and we can also look at the shadows to see the direction the light source is coming from is not within or close to the surface of the moon, let alone the surface. With that, I would say it was pretty obvious the moon is not self illuminating. And since it isn't self illuminating then it must be lit up from the only other close by source of light that we can observe that could cause that much illumination, the sun.



So now the moon is most certainly lit up by the sun, and since we cannot observe a magically impossible invisible shadow object directly between the sun and moon I would say it's fair to assume there isn't one. Which is most certainly a conundrum for FEH. You cannot just ignore evidence that goes against a hypothesis though, if the hypothesis can't be proven you have to move on to another. So without that invisible 'shadow object' what is the likely explanation of a lunar eclipse with a flat earth model?


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Offline RonJ

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2018, 01:11:01 AM »
Maybe there is another job for the shadow object besides just accounting for the lunar eclipse.  The sun and moon must also line up in such a way as to cause the variations in the regular tides you see.  In the heliocentric model the moon can be on the same side of the earth as the sun and then both bodies can exert a gravitational pull on the earths water and cause a variable strength tide.  The sun is much more massive but is much further away from the earth than the moon, so the gravitational effects of the sun and moon are different.  The moons gravitational pull on the earth’s water is about 2.5 times stronger than the sun.   With the FET model the sun and moon are opposite of each other and are of variable distances in different seasons.  I also don’t see in the wiki where the sun exerts any gravitation pull on the earth’s water, just the moon and stars.  If the FET model were true, I would then expect to see tides that were different in different seasons of the year on a regular basis.  Maybe the FET model will have to be adjusted so that the shadow object will have some tidal effects as well.  If the shadow object did that then, by definition, it would have to have some mass.  You then should be able to detect and measure it. You can easily see other objects when the sun is in the sky.  I have personally seen the planet Venus and even used it as a navigational body during the daylight hours.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 01:18:36 AM by RonJ »
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.