Curiosity File

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2018, 01:54:54 AM »
Maybe there is another job for the shadow object besides just accounting for the lunar eclipse.  The sun and moon must also line up in such a way as to cause the variations in the regular tides you see.  In the heliocentric model the moon can be on the same side of the earth as the sun and then both bodies can exert a gravitational pull on the earths water and cause a variable strength tide.  The sun is much more massive but is much further away from the earth than the moon, so the gravitational effects of the sun and moon are different.  The moons gravitational pull on the earth’s water is about 2.5 times stronger than the sun.   With the FET model the sun and moon are opposite of each other and are of variable distances in different seasons.  I also don’t see in the wiki where the sun exerts any gravitation pull on the earth’s water, just the moon and stars.  If the FET model were true, I would then expect to see tides that were different in different seasons of the year on a regular basis.  Maybe the FET model will have to be adjusted so that the shadow object will have some tidal effects as well.  If the shadow object did that then, by definition, it would have to have some mass.  You then should be able to detect and measure it. You can easily see other objects when the sun is in the sky.  I have personally seen the planet Venus and even used it as a navigational body during the daylight hours.
That is something to consider, that is seasonal differences in tides due to sun and moon distance changes in FET.
But if I'm not mistaken FET doesn't adhere to the concept of gravity. I haven't read what FET claims tidal effect cause is.
The "Shadow Object" if that's what we're going to call it, my not have much mass, no gravitational effect on anything? Obviously we can't see it, detect it with radar or anything, therefor we don't know what it is or even if it exists.
However, it might be man made and cloaked, this would fit the frame of FET and the idea that there's a huge conspiracy and they're hiding the truth from us? Don't laugh, if you're going to believe the earth is flat you have to reach deep, fetch far for evidence.
The problem with that theory though is FET would have us believe that man doesn't posses the skill, technology, modern vessels and ingenuity to properly map the earth. How would we figure out the sun, moon and earth line up to cause eclipse effect with a 4th invisible object throwing us off track?
I guess my point is, The "Shadow Object" brings up more questions than answers.         

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Offline RonJ

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2018, 02:53:08 AM »
From the Wiki-----
Celestial Gravitation is a part of some Flat Earth models which involve an attraction by all objects of mass on earth to the heavenly bodies. This is not the same as Gravity, since Celestial Gravitation does not imply an attraction between objects of mass on Earth. Celestial Gravitation accounts for tides and other gravimetric anomalies across the Earth's plane.

A typical lunar eclipse
The Lunar Eclipse is red because the light of the sun is shining through the edges of the Shadow Object which passes between the sun and moon during a Lunar Eclipse. The red tint occurs because the outer layers of the Shadow Object are not sufficiently dense. The Sun's light is powerful enough to shine through the outer layers of the Shadow Object, just as a flashlight is powerful enough to shine through your hand when you put it right up against your palm
--------

I take this to mean that the heavenly bodies are endowed with some sort of property that allows for gravitational attraction between them and objects on earth, but other objects on earth aren't attracted to the earth itself.  That way the heavenly bodies can cause the tides but I'm not exactly sure what the exact definition of 'heavenly bodies' happens to be.  It seem to me that I had read in another part of the Wiki that the moon and the stars could do some gravitational attraction, but the sun could not.  I did ask if there were any equations that could describe this property (like the equation of universal gravitation in RET) but I haven't seen an answer to that. 

It looks to me like the shadow object has some interesting properties as quoted above from the Wiki.  It looks like it might be semi-transparent.  The 'official' line in FET seems to be that you can never see the shadow object because the sun is just too bright during the day to see anything in the sky other than the sun itself and maybe the moon.  Of course the observed facts are different.  I personally saw the moon and sun in the sky at the same time just yesterday.  That's very common and is probably part of the FET paradigm.  Additionally I have personally seen the planet Venus in the sky along with the sun so I know that's possible.  I believe you can also sometimes see Mars, but I can't remember seeing that planet recently myself. 

I've brought up another problem with FET countless times in the past that has never been explained.  The sun must change orbits to account for the seasons in FET and that's shown on the Wiki.  In order to change an orbital path there must be a force applied on a scheduled basis to move the sun in the path prescribed by the FET model.  As far as that goes, the same kind of force is also needed for the moon and the shadow object as well.  So many questions and so far no cogent answers.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 03:25:13 AM by RonJ »
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Curiosity File

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2018, 03:20:50 AM »
Thanks RonJ for your in depth respons and I do like your perspective.
I think my fist question has been answered. FET doesn't believe the earth ever get between the moon & sun. Of course it couldn't because that would me FET is wrong in so many ways. Instead it's an invisible object.

So lets move on to my 2nd question from my OP.
 how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?

We know without a shadow of doubt it's not a shadow object, it's the moon that passes in front of the sun, covering the sun in total solar eclipse, casts a very small shadow on the surface of the earth for a very short time and distance.
How does FET explain what we physically observe?
   
 

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2018, 04:14:09 AM »
Thanks RonJ for your in depth respons and I do like your perspective.
I think my fist question has been answered. FET doesn't believe the earth ever get between the moon & sun. Of course it couldn't because that would me FET is wrong in so many ways. Instead it's an invisible object.

So lets move on to my 2nd question from my OP.
 how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?

We know without a shadow of doubt it's not a shadow object, it's the moon that passes in front of the sun, covering the sun in total solar eclipse, casts a very small shadow on the surface of the earth for a very short time and distance.
How does FET explain what we physically observe?
 
FEH has no problems with the solar eclipse having the moon cover the sun. How many times will I have to repeat this in a single thread.....

Curiosity File

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2018, 05:01:36 AM »
Thanks RonJ for your in depth respons and I do like your perspective.
I think my fist question has been answered. FET doesn't believe the earth ever get between the moon & sun. Of course it couldn't because that would me FET is wrong in so many ways. Instead it's an invisible object.

So lets move on to my 2nd question from my OP.
 how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?

We know without a shadow of doubt it's not a shadow object, it's the moon that passes in front of the sun, covering the sun in total solar eclipse, casts a very small shadow on the surface of the earth for a very short time and distance.
How does FET explain what we physically observe?
 
FEH has no problems with the solar eclipse having the moon cover the sun. How many times will I have to repeat this in a single thread.....
I want more that you repeating yourself.
I want diagrams, explanations etc. of, for example, if the moon and sun are relatively the same size, same distance from the surface of the earth, circling opposite each other, how does FET explain the exact phenomena/s we physically observe.   

Offline JCM

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2018, 05:08:46 AM »
Thanks RonJ for your in depth respons and I do like your perspective.
I think my fist question has been answered. FET doesn't believe the earth ever get between the moon & sun. Of course it couldn't because that would me FET is wrong in so many ways. Instead it's an invisible object.

So lets move on to my 2nd question from my OP.
 how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?

We know without a shadow of doubt it's not a shadow object, it's the moon that passes in front of the sun, covering the sun in total solar eclipse, casts a very small shadow on the surface of the earth for a very short time and distance.
How does FET explain what we physically observe?
 
FEH has no problems with the solar eclipse having the moon cover the sun. How many times will I have to repeat this in a single thread.....

You saying it doesn't make the problem go away.  In order for the moon to block the sun in FEH, the moon also needs to follow the same seasonal adjusted rings as the sun speeding up as it approaches the tropic of capricorn and slowing down as it approaches tropic of cancer.  This is an obvious massive flaw in the design as

 1. The moon travels near  the same angular velocity as the sun, neither speeding or slowing down to match the changes in distance traveled.

 2. The moons path through the sky does not mirror the shifting north then south that we see in the sun.  The moon cannot block the sun with FEH unless it is in the same path as the sun.   If the FEH is correct, they should mirror each other, and they absolutely do not! No where near.   FEH destroyed by its own wiki. 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 05:12:39 AM by JCM »

MattyWS

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2018, 05:19:46 AM »
If someone does make a diagram showing this, keep in mind there are verifiable solar eclipse maps showing the paths of the eclipse' shadows, so you'd have to make sure the sun and moon are perfectly lined up to these maps.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 05:21:22 AM by MattyWS »

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Offline RonJ

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2018, 05:56:06 AM »
There's another huge problem with FET according to the FAQ section in the Wiki.  The sun changes it's orbital diameter in the different seasons.  You can see that on the nice diagram.  When you go from a smaller diameter circle to a larger diameter circle you have to speed up the sun in order to keep the same orbital time (length of day).  This would require some kind of a retro-rocket.  The opposite would be true when going from a larger diameter orbit to a smaller one.  The retro-rocket would have to fire in the opposite direction to slow the sun down.  I'm assuming that the sun has some mass.  However I haven't been able to find a figure for the mass of the sun under the FET model.  Since the sun has to have some mass it would take a specific amount of time to change the orbital diameter.  More thrust means a shorter time to change orbits.  All of this would have to be accounted for in any kind of diagram showing the timing of an eclipse.  Additionally since the sun has some kind of mass it would require a force to keep it in an orbital path.  Could this be some kind of gravitational attraction between the sun and another body?  Maybe the shadow body is somehow involved.  Again I am going on very little information and having to make some educated guesses.  It sure would help to have some kind of reading on the speculated mass of the sun under this FET model so some accurate predictions could be arrived at for an eclipse.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Curiosity File

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2018, 06:40:23 AM »
There's another huge problem with FET according to the FAQ section in the Wiki.  The sun changes it's orbital diameter in the different seasons.  You can see that on the nice diagram.  When you go from a smaller diameter circle to a larger diameter circle you have to speed up the sun in order to keep the same orbital time (length of day).  This would require some kind of a retro-rocket.  The opposite would be true when going from a larger diameter orbit to a smaller one.  The retro-rocket would have to fire in the opposite direction to slow the sun down.  I'm assuming that the sun has some mass.  However I haven't been able to find a figure for the mass of the sun under the FET model.  Since the sun has to have some mass it would take a specific amount of time to change the orbital diameter.  More thrust means a shorter time to change orbits.  All of this would have to be accounted for in any kind of diagram showing the timing of an eclipse.  Additionally since the sun has some kind of mass it would require a force to keep it in an orbital path.  Could this be some kind of gravitational attraction between the sun and another body?  Maybe the shadow body is somehow involved.  Again I am going on very little information and having to make some educated guesses.  It sure would help to have some kind of reading on the speculated mass of the sun under this FET model so some accurate predictions could be arrived at for an eclipse.

Also the moon or the sun, or both, would have to change speeds to catch up to one another to line up and change altitudes so the moon could pass under the sun. Which brings up a whole new set of questions.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2018, 07:17:43 AM »
There's another huge problem with FET according to the FAQ section in the Wiki.  The sun changes it's orbital diameter in the different seasons.  You can see that on the nice diagram.  When you go from a smaller diameter circle to a larger diameter circle you have to speed up the sun in order to keep the same orbital time (length of day).  This would require some kind of a retro-rocket.  The opposite would be true when going from a larger diameter orbit to a smaller one.  The retro-rocket would have to fire in the opposite direction to slow the sun down.  I'm assuming that the sun has some mass.  However I haven't been able to find a figure for the mass of the sun under the FET model.  Since the sun has to have some mass it would take a specific amount of time to change the orbital diameter.  More thrust means a shorter time to change orbits.  All of this would have to be accounted for in any kind of diagram showing the timing of an eclipse.  Additionally since the sun has some kind of mass it would require a force to keep it in an orbital path.  Could this be some kind of gravitational attraction between the sun and another body?  Maybe the shadow body is somehow involved.  Again I am going on very little information and having to make some educated guesses.  It sure would help to have some kind of reading on the speculated mass of the sun under this FET model so some accurate predictions could be arrived at for an eclipse.

Does the needle of a record player change its rotational rate when it travels towards the center?
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline stack

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2018, 07:37:17 AM »
There's another huge problem with FET according to the FAQ section in the Wiki.  The sun changes it's orbital diameter in the different seasons.  You can see that on the nice diagram.  When you go from a smaller diameter circle to a larger diameter circle you have to speed up the sun in order to keep the same orbital time (length of day).  This would require some kind of a retro-rocket.  The opposite would be true when going from a larger diameter orbit to a smaller one.  The retro-rocket would have to fire in the opposite direction to slow the sun down.  I'm assuming that the sun has some mass.  However I haven't been able to find a figure for the mass of the sun under the FET model.  Since the sun has to have some mass it would take a specific amount of time to change the orbital diameter.  More thrust means a shorter time to change orbits.  All of this would have to be accounted for in any kind of diagram showing the timing of an eclipse.  Additionally since the sun has some kind of mass it would require a force to keep it in an orbital path.  Could this be some kind of gravitational attraction between the sun and another body?  Maybe the shadow body is somehow involved.  Again I am going on very little information and having to make some educated guesses.  It sure would help to have some kind of reading on the speculated mass of the sun under this FET model so some accurate predictions could be arrived at for an eclipse.

Does the needle of a record player change its rotational rate when it travels towards the center?

Yes.

The record is not rotating, like flat earth. The needle, like the flat earth sun, needs to travel around the record. Here it is explained using the example of a stationary record with a traveling needle:

"But, when the record is stationary and you are using a cute little device to run around the grooves, the device would have to “know” whether it is an outer groove (where the correct linear speed is about 20 inches per second) or an inner groove (where the correct linear speed is about 9 inches per second) and adjust its travel speed accordingly in order to play at the proper pitch. This would be quite a difficult engineering project; it’s far more likely that the device runs at a constant speed (perhaps with a manual adjustment) in the hopes that it doesn’t sound too bad over the course of a single track."

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2018, 02:25:20 PM »
Nice diversionary tactic with the record player question.  Now let's get back into the groove and start considering the question about the FET required orbit of the sun above the earth.  The math is obvious.  If you want to have the rotation time of the sun remain exactly the same in two different length orbits you have to change the speed.  It's a simple application of the time/distance equation.  The concept is simple, I'm hoping that the FET explanation will be too.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 03:39:13 PM by RonJ »
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2018, 10:46:56 PM »
Because we know it's there because lunar eclipses happen. You can't see the oxygen you breathe can you? Something creates a shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse. It can't be the Earth under the FEH. So it has to be something else. The most likely explanation is an object we've yet to see or notice. This could be orbiting the sun close in, or any of a number of other places. Although personally I think it would have to be close to the sun, made of a material with a very low reflective index, and possibly be flat itself. Like a disk circling the sun. But I'm not sure what the main idea is concerning the shape/form of the shadow object tbh.

You are getting really good at arguing their side.   Quite impressive. 
Nothing Guest has ever said should be taken as representative of anything other than Guest's own delusions opinions.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2018, 11:03:38 PM »
Thanks RonJ for your in depth respons and I do like your perspective.
I think my fist question has been answered. FET doesn't believe the earth ever get between the moon & sun. Of course it couldn't because that would me FET is wrong in so many ways. Instead it's an invisible object.

So lets move on to my 2nd question from my OP.
 how does FET explain
#1 Earth between Moon & Sun?
#2 Moon between Earth & Sun?

We know without a shadow of doubt it's not a shadow object, it's the moon that passes in front of the sun, covering the sun in total solar eclipse, casts a very small shadow on the surface of the earth for a very short time and distance.
How does FET explain what we physically observe?
 
FEH has no problems with the solar eclipse having the moon cover the sun. How many times will I have to repeat this in a single thread.....
I want more that you repeating yourself.
I want diagrams, explanations etc. of, for example, if the moon and sun are relatively the same size, same distance from the surface of the earth, circling opposite each other, how does FET explain the exact phenomena/s we physically observe.

You do realize you are arguing with a round earther right?   He is just really good at processing what he has read and heard here.   No one owes you diagrams, explanations,  etc. 
Nothing Guest has ever said should be taken as representative of anything other than Guest's own delusions opinions.

Offline JCM

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2018, 07:12:36 AM »

You do realize you are arguing with a round earther right?   He is just really good at processing what he has read and heard here.   No one owes you diagrams, explanations,  etc.

I disagree.  Their own FEH wiki states that the moon is seen blocking the sun for all of the solar eclipses throughout the year.  Their own wiki also shows the sun shifting north and south throughout the year towards the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. In order for the moon to make the solar eclipses it too obviously has to follow the same trajectories as the sun or else the eclipses would only happen when the sun crossed into the moons orbit (so only a small fraction of the year and only during those weeks or months). 

The moons path looks nothing like the suns perfectly predictable path shifting north then south, the predictability of the solar eclipses requires the moon to follow the sun to make such eclipses if near the earth.  If the moon doesn’t follow the suns path as it would need to for the eclipses, it is just more evidence the sun and moon are NOT near us destroying a major component of FEH.

LoveScience

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2018, 10:30:13 AM »
For the record, the Moons orbital plane around the Earth is inclined to the ecliptic (Suns visible path through the sky) by 5 degrees. That's why we don't get a solar eclipse with each new Moon or lunar eclipse with each full Moon.

Offline edby

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2018, 11:16:59 AM »
For the record, the Moons orbital plane around the Earth is inclined to the ecliptic (Suns visible path through the sky) by 5 degrees. That's why we don't get a solar eclipse with each new Moon or lunar eclipse with each full Moon.
This subject has been frequently discussed on the forum. Unfortunately the wiki does not contain information on what has been discussed, I always use a Google query such as this to search the site:

ecliptic site:https://forum.tfes.org

Apart from that, you are quite right. The Moon's orbit is inclined to the ecliptic by 5 degrees, so we don't get a solar eclipse with each new Moon or lunar eclipse with each full Moon.

In FE astronomy, an eclipse clearly can't happen as explained in RE, since moon and sun always above the earth. Hence 'shadow object' or something like that.

LoveScience

Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2018, 11:31:59 AM »
This 'shadow object' intrigues me.  What is the object that creates the shadow?  In RE theory the object is the Moon creating a shadow on the Earth in the case of a solar eclipse or the Earth creating a shadow on the Moon in the case of a lunar eclipse.


The Moons shadow is a lot smaller, hence you have to be on a very specific and narrow track to observe a total solar eclipse.

Offline edby

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2018, 12:11:10 PM »
This 'shadow object' intrigues me.  What is the object that creates the shadow?  In RE theory the object is the Moon creating a shadow on the Earth in the case of a solar eclipse or the Earth creating a shadow on the Moon in the case of a lunar eclipse.


The Moons shadow is a lot smaller, hence you have to be on a very specific and narrow track to observe a total solar eclipse.

There have been a few threads about this. Perhaps start with the one below.

I have posted essentially the same material numerous times here and on The Flat Earth Society, Forum and I have never had a satisfactory answer.

This is what "the Wiki" says (bits about solar eclipse etc, removed for brevity):
Quote from: The Wiki
The Lunar Eclipse
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
A Lunar Eclipse occurs about twice a year when a satellite of the sun passes between the sun and moon.

This satellite is called the Shadow Object. Its orbital plane is tilted at an angle of about 5°10' to the sun's orbital plane[1], making eclipses possible only when the three bodies (Sun, Object, and Moon) are aligned and when the moon is crossing the sun's orbital plane (at a point called the node).    . . . . . . .  A lunar eclipse can be seen from the entire half of the earth beneath the moon at that time.
   . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

The shadow object is never seen because it orbits close to the sun.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
It is estimated that the Shadow Object is around five to ten miles in diameter. Since it is somewhat close to the sun the manifestation of its penumbra upon the moon appears as a magnified projection. This is similar to how during a shadow puppet show your hand's shadow can make a large magnified projection upon your bedroom wall as you move it closer to the flashlight.
From The Lunar Eclipse

This is my interpretation of that geometry. In this diagram the size of the objects has been enlarged (or they would be almost invisible), but the locations are approximately to scale:

[image now lost]

With the "shadow object" so small, it is quite impossible for the it to cast any significant shadow on the moon. Almost all of the sunlight will shine around it.

If my interpretation of the geometry or light paths is incorrect, I would love to be informed, but please no massive refraction or magnification in the atmoplane, there is no atmoplane 5,000 km up!

So, I claim that "the Wiki" explanation of the Lunar Eclipse is completely incorrect, so what is the true cause of a Lunar Eclipse.

Some will I ask why I am asking the same question over and over. The answer to that is simple - it has not yet been answered.


[1] If the "shadow object" can never be seen, how was the inclination of its orbit determined, for we are told "Its orbital plane is tilted at an angle of about 5°10' to the sun's orbital plane"?
      I can guess, that's simply been "borrowed" from the measured orbital inclination of the moon by astronomers!

Offline edby

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Re: How does Earth get between the Moon & Sun in FET?
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2018, 12:22:26 PM »
The wiki links to an excellent post by Scott Acton http://www.personalityresearch.org/metatheory/flatearth.html He points out that the scientific method of falsification is a modus tollens argument of the following form:

If H (and auxiliary assumptions A1, A2 etc), then C
But C is false
Therefore H is false.

However as Acton points out, the argument is invalid, since it could be one of the auxiliary assumptions that is false. Examples of such auxiliary assumptions are as follows
Quote
First, we assume that the sun gives the moon its light. Second, we assume that the earth and not another celestial body intervenes between the sun and the moon to cause the lunar eclipse. Third, we assume that the behavior of light is the same in outer space as it is on earth. Fourth, we assume that the rotation of the earth has no effect on the shape of the shadow cast by the earth upon the moon. Fifth, we assume that the shadow cast by the sun is not obscured by light from other heavenly bodies, such as the stars. On the theoretical side, we assume a theory of optics that would allow us to tell the difference between a curved and flat shadow.

To avoid any confusion, Acton does not believe in Flat Earth, nor is he arguing for it. He is pointing out that science is more complicated than we imagine. It relies on a large network of auxiliary assumptions (such as light travelling in a straight line in a vacuum) that have accreted over time, and which scientists unthinkingly assume. Many of these assumptions will be mutually reinforcing. Furthermore, any challenge to any one of them will likely require a much more complex and arbitrary set of assumptions that violates Ockham's principle.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 12:26:39 PM by edby »