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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2018, 04:21:48 PM »
the rest is geometry.
The fact that you failed to state (or realise, as you now claim) your assumptions about geometry does not render them anything other than assumptions.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2018, 05:32:45 PM »
Note that edby is a Round Earther and does not appear to base his numbers in anything other than his own impression of how things "should" be. It is unlikely that any FE'er will speak with too much certainty about long distances at such an early stage of the theory's development.

This idea has been around for hundreds of years. Samuel Rowbotham was writing about it in the late 1800's. I agree that a few isolated researchers does not constitute a theory. While not popular there have been flat earth societies since the 1950's.  Which makes this at least 50-60 years old. The idea that we can't measure the distance from point A to point B within 100 miles on this planet is mind boggling to me.

With hundreds and hundreds of years of advancement in surveying, cartography, navigation, measuring etc how could anyone possibly make the claim that the distance between 2 points (which have been measured thousands of times in the past 600 years ) is unknown?

I know this flat earth model is unpopular because it does not fit with a dome, firmament, or ice wall but the infinite repeating plane model I believe is accurate.

https://search.yahoo.com/search/?p=maps

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2018, 05:40:49 PM »
You seem to be of the opinion that not knowing something is better than pretending that a wrong answer is right. I respectfully disagree, and will gladly take a series of unknowns over known falsities.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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MattyWS

Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2018, 05:59:02 PM »
the rest is geometry.
The fact that you failed to state (or realise, as you now claim) your assumptions about geometry does not render them anything other than assumptions.
But you yourself don't actually bring anything to the table. The idea of a flat earth isn't new so there should by all means be plenty of calculations that work perfectly with a flat earth to help navigation on a global (or disk I guess) scale. I've yet to see anyone actually measure and depict any flat earth distances accurately and irrefutably, only people shrugging and saying "we're new so it hasn't been done yet". The fact that all of the calculations work with a globe is maybe because it is a globe.

On that note, I've yet to see any photo evidence of a flat earth either, since everyone claims all photos of the earth from space are fake and cgi etc, that goes both ways. I'd love to see a 360 panoramic photo of a disk that clearly shows all of the continents on it (as much as you can with cloud cover). That way you could even accurately begin to measure distances knowing you're right.

If you could a accurately measure the world, which we can, why isn't it obviously a disk? Why does all of the maths point to a globe yet barely any maths point to a disk or square or even an infinite plane? I say barely any because I could measure say, my bedroom, and it would be the same whether it be on a globe or disk, but measure larger distances that aren't on the equator and you'll find a lot of distortion in your maths if you're basing it on a flat earth. This has been proven, go take a long drive across a country like Russia or Australia and see how long it takes.

Quite honestly you also don't need to be a geologist to see stretching on a flat map depiction. It's clearly projected from a sphere but just in case you still don't believe me I'll give you a small head start on your calculations and look forward to seeing the results;

https://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1359533867

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Online Pete Svarrior

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2018, 06:32:29 PM »
But you yourself don't actually bring anything to the table.
I'm sorry to hear you feel that way.

The idea of a flat earth isn't new so there should by all means be plenty of calculations
"This question is old therefore it must have been answered" is an extremely tenuous line of reasoning.

On that note, I've yet to see any photo evidence of a flat earth either, since everyone claims all photos of the earth from space are fake and cgi etc, that goes both ways. I'd love to see a 360 panoramic photo of a disk that clearly shows all of the continents on it (as much as you can with cloud cover).
What makes you think that this is at all possible, let alone figuring out how you've established that this should be accomplished by now?

If you could a accurately measure the world, which we can, why isn't it obviously a disk?
How have you established this?

Quite honestly you also don't need to be a geologist to see stretching on a flat map depiction. It's clearly projected from a sphere
Funny, that. The map of the Earth predates the Round Earth Theory. I wonder what's so "clear" about your alleged "projection".
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline stack

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2018, 07:48:58 PM »
I wonder what's so "clear" about your alleged "projection".

Semantics aside, I'd like to hear more about this. Is the contention that the maps used as proxies for FET models are not AE globe projections? Specifically the mono-pole & bi-polar model depictions?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2018, 08:16:01 PM »
But you yourself don't actually bring anything to the table.
I'm sorry to hear you feel that way.


I would say you are one of the more reasonable FE'ers.  I am curious how you feel about the old flight times arguments?   Its pretty well documented how fast and far flights go so it should be pretty easy to rough in a map even if it has single digit percentage errors.  Still better than what we have now
I don't have to go to the gym, I get all my exercise jumping to conclusions.-sandokhan

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2018, 08:23:54 PM »
the rest is geometry.
The fact that you failed to state (or realise, as you now claim) your assumptions about geometry does not render them anything other than assumptions.

The ‘geometry assumptions’ for AE are based on Euclidean geometry, which by definition is the geometry of a flat surface. I.e. ‘flat’ means ‘obeys the assumptions of Euclidean geometry’. These assumptions are

1. A straight line segment can be drawn joining any two points.
2. Any straight line segment can be extended indefinitely in a straight line.
3. Given any straight line segment, a circle can be drawn having the segment as radius and one endpoint as center.
4. All right angles are congruent.
5. If two lines are drawn which intersect a third in such a way that the sum of the inner angles on one side is less than two right angles, then the two lines inevitably must intersect each other on that side if extended far enough.

It is the fifth one (the parallel postulate) that characterises flatness.

You are welcome to challenge any of these, but then that has to be consistent with the assumption of flatness, which is essential to, surely, flat earth.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theorema_Egregium.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 08:40:58 PM by edby »

Offline edby

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2018, 08:30:49 PM »
Always claim the AE is simply a projection
I am not assuming it is a projection. I am assuming that the ratio of the lengths any two straight lines drawn on the AE map, is the same as the ratio of the corresponding lines on the earth. No assumption or claim about 'projection'.

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2018, 08:39:20 PM »
If you could a accurately measure the world, which we can, why isn't it obviously a disk?
How have you established this?
Measurement of the earth's surface has a long history. The modern development begins with Snell, probably the first person to try large-scale measurement of the circumference of the earth using triangulation. The method relies on no particular assumption about the shape of the earth, but simply measures distances.

Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2018, 09:32:32 PM »
You seem to be of the opinion that not knowing something is better than pretending that a wrong answer is right. I respectfully disagree, and will gladly take a series of unknowns over known falsities.
How would you propose determining the shape of the earth?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2018, 10:38:54 PM »
I would say you are one of the more reasonable FE'ers.  I am curious how you feel about the old flight times arguments?   Its pretty well documented how fast and far flights go so it should be pretty easy to rough in a map even if it has single digit percentage errors.  Still better than what we have now

This has been discussed so many times. I was also VERY curious about it. I got all the responses from a flight time superthread. Here's a link:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0




-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 180 degrees the earth is flat.
-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 179.99984 degrees the earth is slightly concave.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121615#msg121615



-Distances between two cities which are far apart is unknown
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121996#msg121996


-Flight GPS systems are inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122030#msg122030
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122441#msg122441


-GPS systems are based on a round earth therefore will give measurements/distances which support a round earth.
-Aircraft are using instruments which assume round earth coordinates which will support a round earth.
-There is no flat earth map.
-The difference in flight time is based off of flight speed which has yet to be proven.
-The airplane speed and range is based off round systems therefore will give speeds and ranges which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122359#msg122359


-plane speed measurements are unreliable
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122364#msg122364

-there are no flat earth flight programs, systems, GPS etc because the flat earth aircraft navigation fund is nonexistent.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122369#msg122369


-Triangulation as a measurement of distance can be inaccurate because the "known" locations used for triangulation are based on a round earth system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122410#msg122410


-there are almost an infinite number of continental configurations (If a flight disproves flat earth continental configuration 23985729387592873 you then need to test continental configuration 23985729387592874).
-Groundspeed measurement instruments use a round earth coordinate system therefore will give results which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122411#msg122411


-proof is needed that mile measurements on a highway are accurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122423#msg122423

-Google maps is based on a round earth coordinate system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122433#msg122433

-any navigation system based on longitude and latitude is a round earth navigation system (which is most likely used in all navigation systems)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122655#msg122655

-any map, navigation, or measurement system which uses Latitude and Longitude in any way is inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122664#msg122664

-That's not the map of the earth (a variant of there is no map of the earth)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122672#msg122672
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 11:21:12 PM by iamcpc »

Curiosity File

Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2018, 07:18:56 AM »
Round in circles we go. Links to other threads. Is this even necessary? Do we lack that much common knowledge to not know how accurate radar is and it's many uses? Now we have GPS which is all as accurate only hinderd by latency.

GPS and radar are accurate to m/s and fractions of mph.
While GPS bases it's construct on RE radar does not.
Radar in some cases are stationary and ground based and GPS is not.
One of the links that we were directed to to here quoted someone saying, and I wont mention names, but it's mind boggling how ignorant people are.
The individual stated that GPS wasn't accurate to the speedometer on a car. For crying out loud, speedometers are the things that are not accurate. We can get into that later.

But what I want to point out is radar has be measuring speed, distance and flight path of aircraft since 1935.
On that note I want to point out that with one ping of a radar signal gives accurate distance of an object from the radar units location in fractions of a second. With two bounces of a radar ping it also calculates precise speed, again in fractions of a second. Not only that, but gives ETA to the second from point A to point B in X amount of time over short or long distances. 
GPS is also just as accurate and precise within M/S due to latency depending on which satellite the signal comes from.

Here's some real world facts.
We calibrate speedometers by use of GPS.
We Check times and speeds at the drag strips with radar.
I got a ticket going 80 mph. When I noticed the cop I looked at my speedo and it said 83 mph, my GPS monitor read 80 mph and the cop said her radar clocked me at 80 mph.

FEthers seem to be stuck in the 16th or 17th century, or earlier. 

So Airlines use radar to track the speed and path of their aircraft. Before GPS that's all they used. When an aircraft leaves an airport the radar tower at that airport tracks the aircraft as far as it can until it can no longer bounce a signal off the aircraft. Then it's picked up by the next radar tower along it's flight path etc. until the one at it's destination picks it up and relays to the aircraft the necessary information it needs to make adjustments to it's speed, angle of decent, etc. to land on it's schedule time, which landing strip to land on among other information pertinent to making a safe landing.

Who here can tell us why a radar signal from an airport in Australia can't track a plane all the way fro Australia to Chile?
 

   
 

Curiosity File

Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2018, 08:07:36 AM »
I would say you are one of the more reasonable FE'ers.  I am curious how you feel about the old flight times arguments?   Its pretty well documented how fast and far flights go so it should be pretty easy to rough in a map even if it has single digit percentage errors.  Still better than what we have now

This has been discussed so many times. I was also VERY curious about it. I got all the responses from a flight time superthread. Here's a link:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0




-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 180 degrees the earth is flat.
-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 179.99984 degrees the earth is slightly concave.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121615#msg121615



-Distances between two cities which are far apart is unknown
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121996#msg121996


-Flight GPS systems are inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122030#msg122030
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122441#msg122441


-GPS systems are based on a round earth therefore will give measurements/distances which support a round earth.
-Aircraft are using instruments which assume round earth coordinates which will support a round earth.
-There is no flat earth map.
-The difference in flight time is based off of flight speed which has yet to be proven.
-The airplane speed and range is based off round systems therefore will give speeds and ranges which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122359#msg122359


-plane speed measurements are unreliable
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122364#msg122364

-there are no flat earth flight programs, systems, GPS etc because the flat earth aircraft navigation fund is nonexistent.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122369#msg122369


-Triangulation as a measurement of distance can be inaccurate because the "known" locations used for triangulation are based on a round earth system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122410#msg122410


-there are almost an infinite number of continental configurations (If a flight disproves flat earth continental configuration 23985729387592873 you then need to test continental configuration 23985729387592874).
-Groundspeed measurement instruments use a round earth coordinate system therefore will give results which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122411#msg122411


-proof is needed that mile measurements on a highway are accurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122423#msg122423

-Google maps is based on a round earth coordinate system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122433#msg122433

-any navigation system based on longitude and latitude is a round earth navigation system (which is most likely used in all navigation systems)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122655#msg122655

-any map, navigation, or measurement system which uses Latitude and Longitude in any way is inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122664#msg122664

-That's not the map of the earth (a variant of there is no map of the earth)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122672#msg122672

You guys have been debating these questions, Same exact questions I asked, for more than a year now, and with all evidence and proofs of existing realities FET still are in the dark as to how things work, and are in disbelief and/or denial? mind boggling.       

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Offline stack

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2018, 08:16:44 AM »
This has been discussed so many times. I was also VERY curious about it. I got all the responses from a flight time superthread. Here's a link:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0

Thanks iam for going through the super thread. Wow, 24 pages and it seems that the FET argument upshot is that the entirety of long haul transport/navigation is based upon the wrong shape of earth and wildly inaccurate. Seems at a minimum, extremely cost prohibitive and downright dangerous.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2018, 04:37:33 PM »
You guys have been debating these questions, Same exact questions I asked, for more than a year now, and with all evidence and proofs of existing realities FET still are in the dark as to how things work, and are in disbelief and/or denial? mind boggling.     

These things can go on forever. A refusal to accept basic distances which have been corroborated hundreds of thousands of times by many different systems and hundreds of thousands of people just boggles my mind.

Any distance or measurement which could weaken one of the many many different FE models is met with staunch resistance and nit picking ad infinitum.



This has been discussed so many times. I was also VERY curious about it. I got all the responses from a flight time superthread. Here's a link:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0

Thanks iam for going through the super thread. Wow, 24 pages and it seems that the FET argument upshot is that the entirety of long haul transport/navigation is based upon the wrong shape of earth and wildly inaccurate. Seems at a minimum, extremely cost prohibitive and downright dangerous.

What's really hilarious is that there is a flat earth model which are supported by known distances, flight times, travel times, shipping times, cartography, navigation etc.  Yet any time one of the obviously impossible flat earth models gets weakened in any way by any sort of evidence that evidence is almost instantly called suspect, fake, flawed, impossible etc.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 04:43:50 PM by iamcpc »

Offline edby

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2018, 04:56:22 PM »
What's really hilarious is that there is a flat earth model which are supported by known distances, flight times, travel times, shipping times, cartography, navigation etc.  Yet any time one of the obviously impossible flat earth models gets weakened in any way by any sort of evidence that evidence is almost instantly called suspect, fake, flawed, impossible etc.
You mean Google, yes?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2018, 06:53:19 PM »
What's really hilarious is that there is a flat earth model which are supported by known distances, flight times, travel times, shipping times, cartography, navigation etc.  Yet any time one of the obviously impossible flat earth models gets weakened in any way by any sort of evidence that evidence is almost instantly called suspect, fake, flawed, impossible etc.
You mean Google, yes?



With hundreds and hundreds of years of experiences in fields like navigation, cartography, traveling, surveying, shipping, solar astronomy etc corroborated by literally MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people making these trips/measurements/maps/surveys every single year how anyone could possibly claim these distances/directions are incorrect or unknown just baffles my mind.


These are the ONLY flat earth models I've EVER seen which come even remotely close to corroborating these things. They are all an infinite repeating plane.

https://search.yahoo.com/search/?p=maps
https://www.bing.com/maps
http://suncalc.net/#/-0.0263,109.3425,2/2018.11.06/12:56
http://earth3dmap.com/
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 06:58:36 PM by iamcpc »

Offline edby

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2018, 07:49:21 PM »
You mean Google, yes?
With hundreds and hundreds of years of experiences in fields like navigation, cartography, traveling, surveying, shipping, solar astronomy etc corroborated by literally MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people making these trips/measurements/maps/surveys every single year how anyone could possibly claim these distances/directions are incorrect or unknown just baffles my mind.
So Google is correct, and the earth itself is flat? We have discussed this a few times before and I have mentioned this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_curvature but you have never responded.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2018, 09:23:20 PM »
You mean Google, yes?
With hundreds and hundreds of years of experiences in fields like navigation, cartography, traveling, surveying, shipping, solar astronomy etc corroborated by literally MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people making these trips/measurements/maps/surveys every single year how anyone could possibly claim these distances/directions are incorrect or unknown just baffles my mind.
So Google is correct, and the earth itself is flat? We have discussed this a few times before and I have mentioned this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_curvature but you have never responded.

I'm saying that if the earth was flat then 99% of the flat earth models that I've seen are outright impossible and can be EASILY discredited by anyone with a few hundred bucks, a vacation, an odometer and a road trip.

I gave 3 examples of maps WIDELY accepted maps of the earth that I (along with millions of other people) consider largely accurate. They all display NOTHING about the shape of the earth. They all depict the earth as an infinite repeating plane.

In terms of Gaussian Curvature the highest math I ever took was Calc2 and some higher level statistics. I don't know anything about Differential Geometry.  Let alone the differential topology or abstract/linear algebra classes that come before it. That math, quite frankly, is beyond me. Even my friend, who is a math major, stopped at the differential topology level.

Lucky for me you don't need a masters in math to make or read a map!
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 09:29:06 PM by iamcpc »