The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Curiosity File on November 04, 2018, 05:14:35 PM

Title: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 04, 2018, 05:14:35 PM
FET has Chile on one end and Australia on the other end of Earth.
How far apart are they on FE? 
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: edby on November 04, 2018, 05:39:14 PM
Santiago Chile -33.4489   -70.6693
Sydney Australia -33.8688   151.2093

FE distance (straight line) 25,683.20 km
GE distance (great circle) 11,346.72 km

FE distance assumes the azimuthal equidistant map. Other FE maps may give different distances.

Flight time Santiago Sydney 14.03 hours. This is equivalent to an average flight speed of 1,830km/h.
Globe earth average speed 808 km/h.

The figure of about 800 km/h is consistent with all the other data I have on flight times, however it could be that jet streams in the southern hemicircle of the world make planes faster. I still find it puzzling that the flight time is the same in either direction, but there may be some circular jet stream effect that allows planes to go faster in either direction. More research needed.


Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 04, 2018, 05:53:38 PM
Santiago Chile -33.4489   -70.6693
Sydney Australia -33.8688   151.2093

FE distance (straight line) 25,683.20 km
GE distance (great circle) 11,346.72 km

FE distance assumes the azimuthal equidistant map. Other FE maps may give different distances.
So FET does not match reality?

https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/distances.html?n=232

https://www.entfernungsrechner.net/en/distance/city/2147714/city/3871336
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: edby on November 04, 2018, 06:27:34 PM
So FET does not match reality?

https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/distances.html?n=232

https://www.entfernungsrechner.net/en/distance/city/2147714/city/3871336
Those distances are worked out using the Globe Earth model. If the earth is a globe, then yes they match reality, and FET does not.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 04, 2018, 07:50:58 PM
Note that edby is a Round Earther and does not appear to base his numbers in anything other than his own impression of how things "should" be. It is unlikely that any FE'er will speak with too much certainty about long distances at such an early stage of the theory's development.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 04, 2018, 08:09:52 PM
Note that edby is a Round Earther and does not appear to base his numbers in anything other than his own impression of how things "should" be. It is unlikely that any FE'er will speak with too much certainty about long distances at such an early stage of the theory's development.
The problem I have with that theory is FET is not in its infancy, in fact it ran it's course thousands of years ago and died when real world long distance navigation advancements killed FET. 
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: edby on November 04, 2018, 08:20:51 PM
Note that edby is a Round Earther and does not appear to base his numbers in anything other than his own impression of how things "should" be. It is unlikely that any FE'er will speak with too much certainty about long distances at such an early stage of the theory's development.
There is no impression. I specifically stated my assumption of the AE map above, the rest is geometry.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 04, 2018, 08:35:48 PM
To be fair though, I guess the "NEW" FET movement is in it's infancy and once it gains some real world ground, we will have products on the market that base their construct on FET mapping for navigation. Then we'll get those FE map long distance measurements correct.
For now we're stuck with simple formulas like speed over time = distance. 
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 04, 2018, 08:51:16 PM
Note that edby is a Round Earther and does not appear to base his numbers in anything other than his own impression of how things "should" be. It is unlikely that any FE'er will speak with too much certainty about long distances at such an early stage of the theory's development.
There is no impression. I specifically stated my assumption of the AE map above, the rest is geometry.
I would also say that that's not a personal impression on how thing should be, rather an observation of the reality of how things are.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: stack on November 04, 2018, 08:55:34 PM
Note that edby is a Round Earther and does not appear to base his numbers in anything other than his own impression of how things "should" be. It is unlikely that any FE'er will speak with too much certainty about long distances at such an early stage of the theory's development.

I'm not sure I follow this. Is it that in RET, long distances are known, traveled everyday but in FET, though traveled everyday, long distances are not known due to the theory's infancy?
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 04, 2018, 09:08:56 PM
Note that edby is a Round Earther and does not appear to base his numbers in anything other than his own impression of how things "should" be. It is unlikely that any FE'er will speak with too much certainty about long distances at such an early stage of the theory's development.

I'm not sure I follow this. Is it that in RET, long distances are known, traveled everyday but in FET, though traveled everyday, long distances are not known due to the theory's infancy?
Boy Pete sure brought a lot of questions to the table with this comment.
But yes, I believe that's exactly what he's saying.
Which answers a couple more questions like,
why isn't there any tech, equipment or products on the market that base their construct on FET?
also,
Why hasn't FES-FET found any physical proof the earth is flat?
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 04, 2018, 09:14:26 PM
In the past when we have applied equal skepticism to the assertions made, we have found that Team Ball is assuming a whole littany of expectations and assumptions when presenting their data and methods, including the prevailing assumption that the earth is a globe.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: inquisitive on November 04, 2018, 09:25:18 PM
In the past when we have applied equal skepticism to the assertions made, we have found that Team Ball is assuming a whole littany of expectations and assumptions when presenting their data and methods, including the prevailing assumption that the earth is a globe.
Like measured distances and path of the sun?
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 04, 2018, 09:36:05 PM
In the past when we have applied equal skepticism to the assertions made, we have found that Team Ball is assuming a whole littany of expectations and assumptions when presenting their data and methods, including the prevailing assumption that the earth is a globe.
Speed over time = distance is simple arithmetic that is verifiable physically. Which in the case of the OP subject has been done. This is not assumption.
Now, we can say that FET, in it's infancy, IS nothing more than an assumption.
 
   
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 04, 2018, 09:40:36 PM
In the past when we have applied equal skepticism to the assertions made, we have found that Team Ball is assuming a whole littany of expectations and assumptions when presenting their data and methods, including the prevailing assumption that the earth is a globe.
Like measured distances and path of the sun?
Yes, also like measuring distance from Earth to the Moon with advanced technology and equipment.

Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: rabinoz on November 04, 2018, 09:47:19 PM
In the past when we have applied equal skepticism to the assertions made, we have found that Team Ball is assuming a whole littany of expectations and assumptions when presenting their data and methods, including the prevailing assumption that the earth is a globe.
The topic is "Australia & Chile FET how far apart?" and the air routes from Sydney to/from Santiago are flown non-stop.

So how about answering, "What is the distance from Australia to Chile according to FET?" A simple, very direct and very pertinent question.
If there is no answer I guess we'll just have to go with QANTAS flying that route in about 12 hours 10 minutes and covering about 11,400 km, though the flight of 2 years ago took only 11 hours 50 min.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ab3xzqm2xugkkpv/FlightRadar24%20-%20Flight%20QFA27%20Sydney%20to%20Santiago.jpg?dl=1)
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 04, 2018, 10:02:03 PM
In the past when we have applied equal skepticism to the assertions made, we have found that Team Ball is assuming a whole littany of expectations and assumptions when presenting their data and methods, including the prevailing assumption that the earth is a globe.
The topic is "Australia & Chile FET how far apart?" and the air routes from Sydney to/from Santiago are flown non-stop.

So how about answering, "What is the distance from Australia to Chile according to FET?" A simple, very direct and very pertinent question.
If there is no answer I guess we'll just have to go with QANTAS flying that route in about 12 hours 10 minutes and covering about 11,400 km, though the flight of 2 years ago took only 11 hours 50 min.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ab3xzqm2xugkkpv/FlightRadar24%20-%20Flight%20QFA27%20Sydney%20to%20Santiago.jpg?dl=1)
That's interesting, the differences in time from 2 years ago. I would be interested in finding out why. But maybe save that for later in the thread.
I think Pete already answered the question why FET hasn't calculated the correct distance yet. Or at least gave an excuse.
But lets look at the different directions.
Your flight path went from east Australia eastward to the west shore of Chile.
The other flight paths went west across Africa.
Which brings up another question or set of questions.
If the east shore of Australia is on the far east edge of FE and the west shore of Chile is on the far west edge of FE, how can a flight leave east Ausy eastbound and end up on the west shore of Chile if the Earth were flat? And what would be the distances?
In fact it show almost the exact same mile and time no matter which path you take
https://www.entfernungsrechner.net/en/distance/city/2147714/city/3871336
 
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: edby on November 04, 2018, 10:20:07 PM
In the past when we have applied equal skepticism to the assertions made, we have found that Team Ball is assuming a whole littany of expectations and assumptions when presenting their data and methods, including the prevailing assumption that the earth is a globe.
I have accumulated a mass of data on published flight times. This does not depend on the prevailing assumption that the earth is a globe. I have verified some of these from personal experience. On the ones I  have not verified, the observation is verifiable, in that anyone can get on a plane and time the journey.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: markjo on November 04, 2018, 11:41:46 PM
In the past when we have applied equal skepticism to the assertions made, we have found that Team Ball is assuming a whole littany of expectations and assumptions when presenting their data and methods, including the prevailing assumption that the earth is a globe.
Given RET's "whole littany of expectations and assumptions", do you believe that the globe model is functional on a practical, day-to-day basis for things like long distance airline flights?
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: totallackey on November 05, 2018, 02:36:24 PM
I find it hilarious the grandstanding and posturing provided by RE adherents when it comes to this topic.

Always claim the AE is simply a projection, yet evidently then want to apply different standards of measurement for the amount of space between lines of longitude between the two countries given in the OP.

A complete lack of intellectual and philosophical honesty.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 05, 2018, 04:21:48 PM
the rest is geometry.
The fact that you failed to state (or realise, as you now claim) your assumptions about geometry does not render them anything other than assumptions.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: iamcpc on November 05, 2018, 05:32:45 PM
Note that edby is a Round Earther and does not appear to base his numbers in anything other than his own impression of how things "should" be. It is unlikely that any FE'er will speak with too much certainty about long distances at such an early stage of the theory's development.

This idea has been around for hundreds of years. Samuel Rowbotham was writing about it in the late 1800's. I agree that a few isolated researchers does not constitute a theory. While not popular there have been flat earth societies since the 1950's.  Which makes this at least 50-60 years old. The idea that we can't measure the distance from point A to point B within 100 miles on this planet is mind boggling to me.

With hundreds and hundreds of years of advancement in surveying, cartography, navigation, measuring etc how could anyone possibly make the claim that the distance between 2 points (which have been measured thousands of times in the past 600 years ) is unknown?

I know this flat earth model is unpopular because it does not fit with a dome, firmament, or ice wall but the infinite repeating plane model I believe is accurate.

https://search.yahoo.com/search/?p=maps
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 05, 2018, 05:40:49 PM
You seem to be of the opinion that not knowing something is better than pretending that a wrong answer is right. I respectfully disagree, and will gladly take a series of unknowns over known falsities.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: MattyWS on November 05, 2018, 05:59:02 PM
the rest is geometry.
The fact that you failed to state (or realise, as you now claim) your assumptions about geometry does not render them anything other than assumptions.
But you yourself don't actually bring anything to the table. The idea of a flat earth isn't new so there should by all means be plenty of calculations that work perfectly with a flat earth to help navigation on a global (or disk I guess) scale. I've yet to see anyone actually measure and depict any flat earth distances accurately and irrefutably, only people shrugging and saying "we're new so it hasn't been done yet". The fact that all of the calculations work with a globe is maybe because it is a globe.

On that note, I've yet to see any photo evidence of a flat earth either, since everyone claims all photos of the earth from space are fake and cgi etc, that goes both ways. I'd love to see a 360 panoramic photo of a disk that clearly shows all of the continents on it (as much as you can with cloud cover). That way you could even accurately begin to measure distances knowing you're right.

If you could a accurately measure the world, which we can, why isn't it obviously a disk? Why does all of the maths point to a globe yet barely any maths point to a disk or square or even an infinite plane? I say barely any because I could measure say, my bedroom, and it would be the same whether it be on a globe or disk, but measure larger distances that aren't on the equator and you'll find a lot of distortion in your maths if you're basing it on a flat earth. This has been proven, go take a long drive across a country like Russia or Australia and see how long it takes.

Quite honestly you also don't need to be a geologist to see stretching on a flat map depiction. It's clearly projected from a sphere but just in case you still don't believe me I'll give you a small head start on your calculations and look forward to seeing the results;

https://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1359533867
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 05, 2018, 06:32:29 PM
But you yourself don't actually bring anything to the table.
I'm sorry to hear you feel that way.

The idea of a flat earth isn't new so there should by all means be plenty of calculations
"This question is old therefore it must have been answered" is an extremely tenuous line of reasoning.

On that note, I've yet to see any photo evidence of a flat earth either, since everyone claims all photos of the earth from space are fake and cgi etc, that goes both ways. I'd love to see a 360 panoramic photo of a disk that clearly shows all of the continents on it (as much as you can with cloud cover).
What makes you think that this is at all possible, let alone figuring out how you've established that this should be accomplished by now?

If you could a accurately measure the world, which we can, why isn't it obviously a disk?
How have you established this?

Quite honestly you also don't need to be a geologist to see stretching on a flat map depiction. It's clearly projected from a sphere
Funny, that. The map of the Earth predates the Round Earth Theory. I wonder what's so "clear" about your alleged "projection".
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: stack on November 05, 2018, 07:48:58 PM
I wonder what's so "clear" about your alleged "projection".

Semantics aside, I'd like to hear more about this. Is the contention that the maps used as proxies for FET models are not AE globe projections? Specifically the mono-pole & bi-polar model depictions?
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: TomInAustin on November 05, 2018, 08:16:01 PM
But you yourself don't actually bring anything to the table.
I'm sorry to hear you feel that way.


I would say you are one of the more reasonable FE'ers.  I am curious how you feel about the old flight times arguments?   Its pretty well documented how fast and far flights go so it should be pretty easy to rough in a map even if it has single digit percentage errors.  Still better than what we have now
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: edby on November 05, 2018, 08:23:54 PM
the rest is geometry.
The fact that you failed to state (or realise, as you now claim) your assumptions about geometry does not render them anything other than assumptions.

The ‘geometry assumptions’ for AE are based on Euclidean geometry, which by definition is the geometry of a flat surface. I.e. ‘flat’ means ‘obeys the assumptions of Euclidean geometry’. These assumptions are (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/EuclidsPostulates.html)

1. A straight line segment can be drawn joining any two points.
2. Any straight line segment can be extended indefinitely in a straight line.
3. Given any straight line segment, a circle can be drawn having the segment as radius and one endpoint as center.
4. All right angles are congruent.
5. If two lines are drawn which intersect a third in such a way that the sum of the inner angles on one side is less than two right angles, then the two lines inevitably must intersect each other on that side if extended far enough.

It is the fifth one (the parallel postulate) that characterises flatness.

You are welcome to challenge any of these, but then that has to be consistent with the assumption of flatness, which is essential to, surely, flat earth.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theorema_Egregium.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: edby on November 05, 2018, 08:30:49 PM
Always claim the AE is simply a projection
I am not assuming it is a projection. I am assuming that the ratio of the lengths any two straight lines drawn on the AE map, is the same as the ratio of the corresponding lines on the earth. No assumption or claim about 'projection'.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: edby on November 05, 2018, 08:39:20 PM
If you could a accurately measure the world, which we can, why isn't it obviously a disk?
How have you established this?
Measurement of the earth's surface has a long history. The modern development begins with Snell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willebrord_Snellius), probably the first person to try large-scale measurement of the circumference of the earth using triangulation. The method relies on no particular assumption about the shape of the earth, but simply measures distances.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: inquisitive on November 05, 2018, 09:32:32 PM
You seem to be of the opinion that not knowing something is better than pretending that a wrong answer is right. I respectfully disagree, and will gladly take a series of unknowns over known falsities.
How would you propose determining the shape of the earth?
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: iamcpc on November 05, 2018, 10:38:54 PM
I would say you are one of the more reasonable FE'ers.  I am curious how you feel about the old flight times arguments?   Its pretty well documented how fast and far flights go so it should be pretty easy to rough in a map even if it has single digit percentage errors.  Still better than what we have now

This has been discussed so many times. I was also VERY curious about it. I got all the responses from a flight time superthread. Here's a link:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0




-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 180 degrees the earth is flat.
-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 179.99984 degrees the earth is slightly concave.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121615#msg121615



-Distances between two cities which are far apart is unknown
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121996#msg121996


-Flight GPS systems are inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122030#msg122030
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122441#msg122441


-GPS systems are based on a round earth therefore will give measurements/distances which support a round earth.
-Aircraft are using instruments which assume round earth coordinates which will support a round earth.
-There is no flat earth map.
-The difference in flight time is based off of flight speed which has yet to be proven.
-The airplane speed and range is based off round systems therefore will give speeds and ranges which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122359#msg122359


-plane speed measurements are unreliable
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122364#msg122364

-there are no flat earth flight programs, systems, GPS etc because the flat earth aircraft navigation fund is nonexistent.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122369#msg122369


-Triangulation as a measurement of distance can be inaccurate because the "known" locations used for triangulation are based on a round earth system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122410#msg122410


-there are almost an infinite number of continental configurations (If a flight disproves flat earth continental configuration 23985729387592873 you then need to test continental configuration 23985729387592874).
-Groundspeed measurement instruments use a round earth coordinate system therefore will give results which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122411#msg122411


-proof is needed that mile measurements on a highway are accurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122423#msg122423

-Google maps is based on a round earth coordinate system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122433#msg122433

-any navigation system based on longitude and latitude is a round earth navigation system (which is most likely used in all navigation systems)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122655#msg122655

-any map, navigation, or measurement system which uses Latitude and Longitude in any way is inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122664#msg122664

-That's not the map of the earth (a variant of there is no map of the earth)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122672#msg122672
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 06, 2018, 07:18:56 AM
Round in circles we go. Links to other threads. Is this even necessary? Do we lack that much common knowledge to not know how accurate radar is and it's many uses? Now we have GPS which is all as accurate only hinderd by latency.

GPS and radar are accurate to m/s and fractions of mph.
While GPS bases it's construct on RE radar does not.
Radar in some cases are stationary and ground based and GPS is not.
One of the links that we were directed to to here quoted someone saying, and I wont mention names, but it's mind boggling how ignorant people are.
The individual stated that GPS wasn't accurate to the speedometer on a car. For crying out loud, speedometers are the things that are not accurate. We can get into that later.

But what I want to point out is radar has be measuring speed, distance and flight path of aircraft since 1935.
On that note I want to point out that with one ping of a radar signal gives accurate distance of an object from the radar units location in fractions of a second. With two bounces of a radar ping it also calculates precise speed, again in fractions of a second. Not only that, but gives ETA to the second from point A to point B in X amount of time over short or long distances. 
GPS is also just as accurate and precise within M/S due to latency depending on which satellite the signal comes from.

Here's some real world facts.
We calibrate speedometers by use of GPS.
We Check times and speeds at the drag strips with radar.
I got a ticket going 80 mph. When I noticed the cop I looked at my speedo and it said 83 mph, my GPS monitor read 80 mph and the cop said her radar clocked me at 80 mph.

FEthers seem to be stuck in the 16th or 17th century, or earlier. 

So Airlines use radar to track the speed and path of their aircraft. Before GPS that's all they used. When an aircraft leaves an airport the radar tower at that airport tracks the aircraft as far as it can until it can no longer bounce a signal off the aircraft. Then it's picked up by the next radar tower along it's flight path etc. until the one at it's destination picks it up and relays to the aircraft the necessary information it needs to make adjustments to it's speed, angle of decent, etc. to land on it's schedule time, which landing strip to land on among other information pertinent to making a safe landing.

Who here can tell us why a radar signal from an airport in Australia can't track a plane all the way fro Australia to Chile?
 

   
 
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 06, 2018, 08:07:36 AM
I would say you are one of the more reasonable FE'ers.  I am curious how you feel about the old flight times arguments?   Its pretty well documented how fast and far flights go so it should be pretty easy to rough in a map even if it has single digit percentage errors.  Still better than what we have now

This has been discussed so many times. I was also VERY curious about it. I got all the responses from a flight time superthread. Here's a link:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0




-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 180 degrees the earth is flat.
-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 179.99984 degrees the earth is slightly concave.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121615#msg121615



-Distances between two cities which are far apart is unknown
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121996#msg121996


-Flight GPS systems are inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122030#msg122030
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122441#msg122441


-GPS systems are based on a round earth therefore will give measurements/distances which support a round earth.
-Aircraft are using instruments which assume round earth coordinates which will support a round earth.
-There is no flat earth map.
-The difference in flight time is based off of flight speed which has yet to be proven.
-The airplane speed and range is based off round systems therefore will give speeds and ranges which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122359#msg122359


-plane speed measurements are unreliable
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122364#msg122364

-there are no flat earth flight programs, systems, GPS etc because the flat earth aircraft navigation fund is nonexistent.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122369#msg122369


-Triangulation as a measurement of distance can be inaccurate because the "known" locations used for triangulation are based on a round earth system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122410#msg122410


-there are almost an infinite number of continental configurations (If a flight disproves flat earth continental configuration 23985729387592873 you then need to test continental configuration 23985729387592874).
-Groundspeed measurement instruments use a round earth coordinate system therefore will give results which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122411#msg122411


-proof is needed that mile measurements on a highway are accurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122423#msg122423

-Google maps is based on a round earth coordinate system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122433#msg122433

-any navigation system based on longitude and latitude is a round earth navigation system (which is most likely used in all navigation systems)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122655#msg122655

-any map, navigation, or measurement system which uses Latitude and Longitude in any way is inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122664#msg122664

-That's not the map of the earth (a variant of there is no map of the earth)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122672#msg122672

You guys have been debating these questions, Same exact questions I asked, for more than a year now, and with all evidence and proofs of existing realities FET still are in the dark as to how things work, and are in disbelief and/or denial? mind boggling.       
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: stack on November 06, 2018, 08:16:44 AM
This has been discussed so many times. I was also VERY curious about it. I got all the responses from a flight time superthread. Here's a link:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0

Thanks iam for going through the super thread. Wow, 24 pages and it seems that the FET argument upshot is that the entirety of long haul transport/navigation is based upon the wrong shape of earth and wildly inaccurate. Seems at a minimum, extremely cost prohibitive and downright dangerous.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: iamcpc on November 06, 2018, 04:37:33 PM
You guys have been debating these questions, Same exact questions I asked, for more than a year now, and with all evidence and proofs of existing realities FET still are in the dark as to how things work, and are in disbelief and/or denial? mind boggling.     

These things can go on forever. A refusal to accept basic distances which have been corroborated hundreds of thousands of times by many different systems and hundreds of thousands of people just boggles my mind.

Any distance or measurement which could weaken one of the many many different FE models is met with staunch resistance and nit picking ad infinitum.



This has been discussed so many times. I was also VERY curious about it. I got all the responses from a flight time superthread. Here's a link:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0

Thanks iam for going through the super thread. Wow, 24 pages and it seems that the FET argument upshot is that the entirety of long haul transport/navigation is based upon the wrong shape of earth and wildly inaccurate. Seems at a minimum, extremely cost prohibitive and downright dangerous.

What's really hilarious is that there is a flat earth model which are supported by known distances, flight times, travel times, shipping times, cartography, navigation etc.  Yet any time one of the obviously impossible flat earth models gets weakened in any way by any sort of evidence that evidence is almost instantly called suspect, fake, flawed, impossible etc.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: edby on November 06, 2018, 04:56:22 PM
What's really hilarious is that there is a flat earth model which are supported by known distances, flight times, travel times, shipping times, cartography, navigation etc.  Yet any time one of the obviously impossible flat earth models gets weakened in any way by any sort of evidence that evidence is almost instantly called suspect, fake, flawed, impossible etc.
You mean Google, yes?
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: iamcpc on November 06, 2018, 06:53:19 PM
What's really hilarious is that there is a flat earth model which are supported by known distances, flight times, travel times, shipping times, cartography, navigation etc.  Yet any time one of the obviously impossible flat earth models gets weakened in any way by any sort of evidence that evidence is almost instantly called suspect, fake, flawed, impossible etc.
You mean Google, yes?



With hundreds and hundreds of years of experiences in fields like navigation, cartography, traveling, surveying, shipping, solar astronomy etc corroborated by literally MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people making these trips/measurements/maps/surveys every single year how anyone could possibly claim these distances/directions are incorrect or unknown just baffles my mind.


These are the ONLY flat earth models I've EVER seen which come even remotely close to corroborating these things. They are all an infinite repeating plane.

https://search.yahoo.com/search/?p=maps
https://www.bing.com/maps
http://suncalc.net/#/-0.0263,109.3425,2/2018.11.06/12:56
http://earth3dmap.com/
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: edby on November 06, 2018, 07:49:21 PM
You mean Google, yes?
With hundreds and hundreds of years of experiences in fields like navigation, cartography, traveling, surveying, shipping, solar astronomy etc corroborated by literally MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people making these trips/measurements/maps/surveys every single year how anyone could possibly claim these distances/directions are incorrect or unknown just baffles my mind.
So Google is correct, and the earth itself is flat? We have discussed this a few times before and I have mentioned this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_curvature but you have never responded.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: iamcpc on November 06, 2018, 09:23:20 PM
You mean Google, yes?
With hundreds and hundreds of years of experiences in fields like navigation, cartography, traveling, surveying, shipping, solar astronomy etc corroborated by literally MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people making these trips/measurements/maps/surveys every single year how anyone could possibly claim these distances/directions are incorrect or unknown just baffles my mind.
So Google is correct, and the earth itself is flat? We have discussed this a few times before and I have mentioned this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_curvature but you have never responded.

I'm saying that if the earth was flat then 99% of the flat earth models that I've seen are outright impossible and can be EASILY discredited by anyone with a few hundred bucks, a vacation, an odometer and a road trip.

I gave 3 examples of maps WIDELY accepted maps of the earth that I (along with millions of other people) consider largely accurate. They all display NOTHING about the shape of the earth. They all depict the earth as an infinite repeating plane.

In terms of Gaussian Curvature the highest math I ever took was Calc2 and some higher level statistics. I don't know anything about Differential Geometry.  Let alone the differential topology or abstract/linear algebra classes that come before it. That math, quite frankly, is beyond me. Even my friend, who is a math major, stopped at the differential topology level.

Lucky for me you don't need a masters in math to make or read a map!
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: edby on November 06, 2018, 09:31:54 PM
I gave 3 examples of maps WIDELY accepted maps of the earth that I consider largely accurate. They all display NOTHING about the shape of the earth. They all depict the earth as an infinite repeating plane.
(1) Google maps tells you the correct distance between different points.
(2) Therefore it tells you SOMETHING about the shape of the earth.

Gauss's proposition, which is the basis of all geodesy, is that you can tell the shape of the earth just by measuring the distances between a set of points. A big tape measure is enough. If you disagree, explain why.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: iamcpc on November 06, 2018, 10:19:25 PM
I gave 3 examples of maps WIDELY accepted maps of the earth that I consider largely accurate. They all display NOTHING about the shape of the earth. They all depict the earth as an infinite repeating plane.
(1) Google maps tells you the correct distance between different points.
(2) Therefore it tells you SOMETHING about the shape of the earth.

Gauss's proposition, which is the basis of all geodesy, is that you can tell the shape of the earth just by measuring the distances between a set of points. A big tape measure is enough. If you disagree, explain why.

I thought I just explained my level of math. Personally if you looked at points on a basketball and told me the distance between several I would be unable to calculate the shape of the basketball. Is it possible to do? I have no idea. I asked my friend the math major and he didn't have any insight. I have no reason to either agree or disagree.

Logically if you told me the distance between point A and B was 500 miles and the distance between point C and D was also 500 miles and then asked me what shape the object is that these points are located on i would say that you don't have enough information to calculate the shape of the object. Maybe if I had some sort of direction or layout of these points I could take a shot at it.

furthermore I believe it's highly possible there is some sort of difference between a distance between points in planar geometry and on earth. Planar geometry generally does have hills, lakes, trees, etc. But don't take my word for it. I don't have a masters in math. If you do then you surely know much more about it than I do.


I don't want to derail this conversation with complex math (which any FE person can easily claim is a product of a sphere earth system therefore will show the earth is a sphere) and the shape of the earth.
I would like to, instead, discuss how it's possible in the flat earth theory that these distances which have been traveled, measured, navigated, and verified hundreds of thousands of times are still claimed to be unknown.

Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: edby on November 06, 2018, 10:23:14 PM
I thought I just explained my level of math. Personally if you looked at points on a basketball and told me the distance between several I would be unable to calculate the shape of the basketball. Is it possible to do? I have no idea. I asked my friend the math major and he didn't have any insight. I have no reason to either agree or disagree.
But if you don't understand the math, why are you making a claim that contradicts the math? The whole basis of geodesy is to determine the shape of the earth by using large tape measures. You may dispute this, but then it's odd to say you don't understand the claim you dispute.
Quote
This brings us to the 1827 paper Disquisitiones generales circa superficies curvas in which Gauss thought to ask not only how the shape of the earth might affect the geodetic measurements taken during the survey and how those measurements are interpreted, but the reverse question of what the measurements themselves would imply about the shape of the earth. The answer to this reverse question would be useful, for instance, if we lived on a cloud covered planet and could not get clues about the shape of our planet from lunar eclipses and the like.

What Gauss discovered was that one could, in fact, determine the shape of the earth, or of any surface for that matter, just by looking at certain geodetic measurements. In particular, Gauss was interested in the sum of the angles of a triangle whose sides were all segments of shortest paths on the surface, like arcs of great circles on a sphere. Gauss noticed that on many curved surfaces, including spheres, the sum of the angles would be more or less than 180°. For angle sums in excess of 180°, Gauss described the surface as having ‘positive’ curvature, while ‘negative’ curvature corresponded to angle sums of less than 180°. He introduced the concept of what we now call the Gaussian curvature of a surface at a given point, and, in the famous theorema egregium (literally, “the outstanding theorem”), proved that two areas can be mapped isometrically onto each other (that is, the map has a single fixed scale factor of 1) only if the Gaussian curvatures are identical at corresponding points of the two areas.

Timothy G. Feeman, Portraits of the Earth: A Mathematician Looks at Maps, American Mathematical Society 2000. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=j1SFbvybvugC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37
Presumably your math friend has heard of Gauss?
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: iamcpc on November 06, 2018, 10:26:27 PM
I thought I just explained my level of math. Personally if you looked at points on a basketball and told me the distance between several I would be unable to calculate the shape of the basketball. Is it possible to do? I have no idea. I asked my friend the math major and he didn't have any insight. I have no reason to either agree or disagree.
But if you don't understand the math, why are you making a claim that contradicts the math? The whole basis of geodesy is to determine the shape of the earth by using large tape measures. You may dispute this, but then it's odd to say you don't understand the claim you dispute.

My claim was that the only flat earth model that I've found which can corroborate these things is one of an infinite repeating plane. Is that claim somehow against some math I don't understand? If so can you dumb it down to calc 2 level math for me and explain how my claim contradicts it?


Presumably your math friend has heard of Gauss?

I don't want to derail this conversation with complex math (which any FE person can easily claim is a product of a sphere earth system therefore will show the earth is a sphere) and the shape of the earth.
I would like to, instead, discuss how it's possible in the flat earth theory that these distances which have been traveled, measured, navigated, and verified hundreds of thousands of times are still claimed to be unknown.

If you are looking to debate masters level math with someone you should start a new thread which I will gladly avoid because I don't have a masters in math. I will concede defeat right now and say that you have mathematically PROVEN beyond ANY doubt that the earth is an oblate spheroid. Can we get back on the topic now?
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: edby on November 06, 2018, 10:49:21 PM
Take the four points of a pyramid, plus its apex. Measure the 8 distances involved. You can represent these on a flat map, however it will be impossible to draw them to scale.

Quote
My claim was that the only flat earth model that I've found which can corroborate these things is one of an infinite repeating plane. Is that claim somehow against some math I don't understand?
Yes.

Quote
I don't want to derail this conversation with complex math (which any FE person can easily claim is a product of a sphere earth system therefore will show the earth is a sphere) and the shape of the earth.
FE people will typically dispute the distances, rather than the math, knowing they will be unlikely to dispute the math.

And no, the measurement of the distance using tape measure techniques does not depend on a 'sphere earth system'. That's the whole point of geodesy.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on November 07, 2018, 04:16:27 PM
I thought I just explained my level of math. Personally if you looked at points on a basketball and told me the distance between several I would be unable to calculate the shape of the basketball. Is it possible to do? I have no idea.
I've no idea either and it's beyond my level of maths, but while I might not be able to calculate the shape from the distances, what I could do is try and plot those distances on a flat piece of paper. If I discover I can't then I must conclude that the earth cannot be flat, or the distances are wrong.
And since the distances are well established and are used by the global transport industry to reliably get goods and people around, it's a bit of a stretch to claim that they don't know how far they're travelling or the speed of their craft. You'd think knowing those things would be pretty crucial to their business model.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: edby on November 07, 2018, 06:38:09 PM
I thought I just explained my level of math. Personally if you looked at points on a basketball and told me the distance between several I would be unable to calculate the shape of the basketball. Is it possible to do? I have no idea.
I've no idea either and it's beyond my level of maths, but while I might not be able to calculate the shape from the distances, what I could do is try and plot those distances on a flat piece of paper. If I discover I can't then I must conclude that the earth cannot be flat, or the distances are wrong.
And since the distances are well established and are used by the global transport industry to reliably get goods and people around, it's a bit of a stretch to claim that they don't know how far they're travelling or the speed of their craft. You'd think knowing those things would be pretty crucial to their business model.

A simple way to visualise this is the tetrahedron

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Tetrahedron.jpg)

You can see it is made up of 4 triangles, but a triangle is absolutely rigid, so there is no way of putting the tetrahedron back together again on a flat surface.

So if you measured the sides of the tetrahedron, you could immediately conclude what 3 dimensional shape it had.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: iamcpc on November 07, 2018, 07:54:05 PM
A simple way to visualise this is the tetrahedron

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Tetrahedron.jpg)

You can see it is made up of 4 triangles, but a triangle is absolutely rigid, so there is no way of putting the tetrahedron back together again on a flat surface.

So if you measured the sides of the tetrahedron, you could immediately conclude what 3 dimensional shape it had.




1. I could draw something within the boundaries of that pyramid which hits all 4 points of that pyramid, yet is not shaped like a pyramid.
2. What does this have to do with how it's widely accepted in the flat earth theory that distances which have been traveled, measured, navigated, and verified hundreds of thousands of times are still claimed to be unknown.
3. I took Geometry in high school. I took algebra and Calc1 to Calc2 in College. Even beyond Calc I took some higher level statistics classes. I never took any classes about 3d planar geometry.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 07, 2018, 08:00:49 PM
I thought I just explained my level of math. Personally if you looked at points on a basketball and told me the distance between several I would be unable to calculate the shape of the basketball. Is it possible to do? I have no idea. I asked my friend the math major and he didn't have any insight. I have no reason to either agree or disagree.
But if you don't understand the math, why are you making a claim that contradicts the math? The whole basis of geodesy is to determine the shape of the earth by using large tape measures. You may dispute this, but then it's odd to say you don't understand the claim you dispute.

My claim was that the only flat earth model that I've found which can corroborate these things is one of an infinite repeating plane. Is that claim somehow against some math I don't understand? If so can you dumb it down to calc 2 level math for me and explain how my claim contradicts it?


Presumably your math friend has heard of Gauss?

I don't want to derail this conversation with complex math (which any FE person can easily claim is a product of a sphere earth system therefore will show the earth is a sphere) and the shape of the earth.
I would like to, instead, discuss how it's possible in the flat earth theory that these distances which have been traveled, measured, navigated, and verified hundreds of thousands of times are still claimed to be unknown.

If you are looking to debate masters level math with someone you should start a new thread which I will gladly avoid because I don't have a masters in math. I will concede defeat right now and say that you have mathematically PROVEN beyond ANY doubt that the earth is an oblate spheroid. Can we get back on the topic now?
I don't mind threads going off topic a bit because it usually bring more information and more information means more learning.
But I have to agree this level of math is beyond most and I'd bet beyond anybody on this forum including the guy posting it.
Honestly it doesn't take anything more than grade school level arithmetic to calculate distances, rate of speed over time etc. It's a little more complicated to calculate how to leave point A and arrive at point B without missing the target, but not much.

But honestly the reason I started this thread wasn't to calculate the distance from Chile to Australia. At some point I wanted to have FET show their calculate distance from one edge of the earth to the other using Chile and Australia as starting reference points seeing as how FET has Chile and Australia on opposite ends of the flat earth. I figured from the west coast of Chile to the west edge of the 'flat earth' is is very close and like wise for the east cost of Australia to the other edge. But obviously this was futile because FET doesn't even seem to be able to calculate how far Chile is from Australia without using RE model mapping, tech and equipment.
I guess it will be forever a mystery the over all dimensions of flat earth. Until they can come up with some kind of solid theory which allows them to develop correct math equations,( based on FET), which would allow them to develop equipment that would allow them to navigate, communicate and accurately measure the "FLAT EARTH". Which would render ALL RE tech and equipment obsolete and they would make a fortune.
Until then we can be sure FET is way off.             
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: iamcpc on November 07, 2018, 08:15:11 PM
I don't mind threads going off topic a bit because it usually bring more information and more information means more learning.
But I have to agree this level of math is beyond most and I'd bet beyond anybody on this forum including the guy posting it.
Honestly it doesn't take anything more than grade school level arithmetic to calculate distances, rate of speed over time etc. It's a little more complicated to calculate how to leave point A and arrive at point B without missing the target, but not not much.

I agree 10000000000%

But honestly the reason I started this thread wasn't to calculate the distance from Chile to Australia. At some point I wanted to have FET show their calculate distance from one edge of the earth to the other using Chile and Australia as starting reference points seeing as how FET has Chile and Australia on opposite ends of the flat earth. I figured from the west coast of Chile to the west edge of the flat is is very close and like wise for the east cost of Australia. But Obviously this futile because FET doesn't even seem to be able to calculate how far Chile is from Australia without using RE model mapping, tech and equipment.
I guess it will be forever a mystery the over all dimensions of flat earth. Until they can come up with some kind of solid theory which allows them to develop correct math equations which would allow them to develop equipment that would allow them to navigate, communicate and accurately measure the "FLAT EARTH". Which would render ALL RE tech and equipment obsolete and they would make a fortune.
Until then we can be sure FET is way off.           

The short answer is:
It's widely accepted:
1. We have no idea what the map of the earth looks like
2. Long distance measurement systems are inaccurate or wrong because they were developed or utilize round earth systems.
3. Long distances are completely unknown.
4. Since we have no idea what the map of the earth looks like we have no idea if Chile is near the edge or not.
5. There are flat earth models, such as the one I most relate to which is highly unpopular, in which the earth does not have an edge.


In the flat earth model that makes the most sense to me Chile is about 12,000 to 13,000 KM away from Australia
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 07, 2018, 08:40:31 PM
I don't mind threads going off topic a bit because it usually bring more information and more information means more learning.
But I have to agree this level of math is beyond most and I'd bet beyond anybody on this forum including the guy posting it.
Honestly it doesn't take anything more than grade school level arithmetic to calculate distances, rate of speed over time etc. It's a little more complicated to calculate how to leave point A and arrive at point B without missing the target, but not not much.

I agree 10000000000%

But honestly the reason I started this thread wasn't to calculate the distance from Chile to Australia. At some point I wanted to have FET show their calculate distance from one edge of the earth to the other using Chile and Australia as starting reference points seeing as how FET has Chile and Australia on opposite ends of the flat earth. I figured from the west coast of Chile to the west edge of the flat is is very close and like wise for the east cost of Australia. But Obviously this futile because FET doesn't even seem to be able to calculate how far Chile is from Australia without using RE model mapping, tech and equipment.
I guess it will be forever a mystery the over all dimensions of flat earth. Until they can come up with some kind of solid theory which allows them to develop correct math equations which would allow them to develop equipment that would allow them to navigate, communicate and accurately measure the "FLAT EARTH". Which would render ALL RE tech and equipment obsolete and they would make a fortune.
Until then we can be sure FET is way off.           

The short answer is:
It's widely accepted:
1. We have no idea what the map of the earth looks like
2. Long distance measurement systems are inaccurate or wrong because they were developed or utilize round earth systems.
3. Long distances are completely unknown.
4. Since we have no idea what the map of the earth looks like we have no idea if Chile is near the edge or not.
5. There are flat earth models, such as the one I most relate to which is highly unpopular, in which the earth does not have an edge.


In the flat earth model that makes the most sense to me Chile is about 12,000 to 13,000 miles away from Australia
I don't think there's an air bus on the planet that could make that trip non stop? I think 10,000 mils max?
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 07, 2018, 08:45:48 PM
Although I usually don't promote the Monopole model, this question is answered by the wider Flat Earth community in the traditional FE model.

The Southern Hemisphere appears to be special place which has much stronger winds than the Northern Hemisphere:

Flights over the Southern Oceans

http://www.antarctica.gov.au/magazine/2001-2005/issue-4-spring-2002/feature2/what-is-the-southern-ocean

  “ The Southern Ocean is notorious for having some of the strongest winds and largest waves on the planet. ”

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20151009-where-is-the-windiest-place-on-earth

  “ There are huge belts of wind caused by the uneven way the Sun heats the Earth's surface. 30° north and south of the equator, the trade winds blow steadily. At 40° lie the prevailing westerlies, and the polar easterlies begin at around 60°.

Ask any round-the-world sailor and they will quickly tell you the stormiest seas, stirred by the strongest winds, are found in the Southern Ocean. These infamously rough latitudes are labelled the "roaring 40s", "furious 50s" and "screaming 60s". ”

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2003JD004179

  “ The Southern Ocean is a vital element in the global climate. Its circumpolar current plays a crucial role in the global transport of mass, heat, momentum, and climate signals from one ocean basin to another. Moreover, the Southern Ocean hosts the strongest surface winds of any open ocean area, fostering strong heat, moisture, and momentum exchanges between the ocean and atmosphere. However, the Southern Ocean is tremendously undersurveyed by traditional observation methods because of the remoteness of the area and rough environment, causing the largest data gap of global oceans. ”

Jeran shows that the winds and Jet Streams in the Southern Hemisphere are stronger than the Northern hemisphere:

Flat Earth - Ending Southern Hemisphere Objections (Runtime: 2m)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaDw-6sslrc

Further, there are both Eastwards and Westwardly traveling currents in the Southern Hemisphere:

South Pacific Gyre

http://thejunkwave.com/what-is-a-gyre/

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/South_Pacific_Gyre.png)

Jet Streams Enable Faster Than Sound Flight

https://www.wired.com/story/norwegian-air-transatlantic-speed-record/

  “ OK, about that "subsonic" bit. You might know that the speed of sound at an altitude of 30,000 to 40,000 feet is roughly 670 mph. But Norwegian’s planes didn't break the sound barrier. Those near-800-mph figures represent ground speed—how fast the aircraft is moving over land. Their air speed, which factors out the 200-mph wind boost, was closer to the 787's standard Mach 0.85. (The older Boeing 747 can cruise at Mach 0.86, but is less efficient than its younger stablemate.) When talking supersonic, and breaking sound barriers, it's all about the speed of the air passing over the wings, which in this case was more like 570 mph. ”
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 07, 2018, 08:55:25 PM
Although I usually don't promote the Monopole model, this question is actually already answered by the wider Flat Earth community in the traditional FE model.

The Southern Hemisphere appears to be special place which has much stronger winds than the Northern Hemisphere:

Flights over the Southern Oceans

http://www.antarctica.gov.au/magazine/2001-2005/issue-4-spring-2002/feature2/what-is-the-southern-ocean

  “ The Southern Ocean is notorious for having some of the strongest winds and largest waves on the planet. ”

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20151009-where-is-the-windiest-place-on-earth

  “ There are huge belts of wind caused by the uneven way the Sun heats the Earth's surface. 30° north and south of the equator, the trade winds blow steadily. At 40° lie the prevailing westerlies, and the polar easterlies begin at around 60°.

Ask any round-the-world sailor and they will quickly tell you the stormiest seas, stirred by the strongest winds, are found in the Southern Ocean. These infamously rough latitudes are labelled the "roaring 40s", "furious 50s" and "screaming 60s". ”

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2003JD004179

  “ The Southern Ocean is a vital element in the global climate. Its circumpolar current plays a crucial role in the global transport of mass, heat, momentum, and climate signals from one ocean basin to another. Moreover, the Southern Ocean hosts the strongest surface winds of any open ocean area, fostering strong heat, moisture, and momentum exchanges between the ocean and atmosphere. However, the Southern Ocean is tremendously undersurveyed by traditional observation methods because of the remoteness of the area and rough environment, causing the largest data gap of global oceans. ”

Jeran shows that the winds and Jet Streams in the Southern Hemisphere are stronger than the Northern hemisphere:

Flat Earth - Ending Southern Hemisphere Objections (Runtime: 2m)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaDw-6sslrc

Further, there are both Eastwards and Westwardly traveling currents in the Southern Hemisphere:

South Pacific Gyre

http://thejunkwave.com/what-is-a-gyre/

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/South_Pacific_Gyre.png)
There's nothing here that calculates distances and every link you posted is RE based information.
Geezus Tom I think you posted this on the wrong thread. We're trying to calculate distances.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 07, 2018, 09:07:10 PM
All of those speeds and distances are based on RE assumptions and the RE coordinate system.

If you want someone to go out and take a tape measurer to the route, that kind of investigative work is not possible at this time.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 07, 2018, 09:36:24 PM
All of those speeds and distances are based on RE assumptions and the RE coordinate system.

If you want someone to go out and take a tape measurer to the route, that kind of investigative work is not possible at this time.
Stating the obvious doesn't work for me Tom. Also the subject here was intended for FET to give some distances and what they use to calculate these distances.
What you posted was all weather phenomena, ocean currents, temperatures and prevailing winds which my influence choice path and speeds you travel but in now way changes the distance from point A to point B.     
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: iamcpc on November 07, 2018, 10:25:28 PM
I don't think there's an air bus on the planet that could make that trip non stop? I think 10,000 mils max?

Sorry I typed miles instead of KM. 10,000 - 13,000 KM between Chile and Australia
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: iamcpc on November 07, 2018, 10:29:18 PM
All of those speeds and distances are based on RE assumptions and the RE coordinate system.

If you want someone to go out and take a tape measurer to the route, that kind of investigative work is not possible at this time.
Stating the obvious doesn't work for me Tom. Also the subject here was intended for FET to give some distances and what they use to calculate these distances.
What you posted was all weather phenomena, ocean currents, temperatures and prevailing winds which my influence choice path and speeds you travel but in now way changes the distance from point A to point B.   

Tom has pointed out, many times, even on links that I have given in this thread that these distances are not known. In his flat earth model The "known" distances are created by round earth systems thus will give a round earth result. There is no funded flat earth distance project to create a flat earth measurement system and then measure these vast distances.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 07, 2018, 10:37:01 PM
One thing that seems common place among FET is to throw in a plethora of complicated garbble, mostly irrelevant to the subject,  that takes an extremely high level of education to understand. I guess this is an attempt to confuse people in hopes that they will think, "wow he must be really smart so therefor he must be right".
Unfortunately for FET most people on this forum are educated, highly intelligent, have gone out into the real and gained experiences of their and can see this is nothing less than the antics of a "con man". My 6th grade nephew once told me that calculating distances is easy. Also the distance from Santiago to Sydney is well know. A 6th grader. Yet Flat Earthers can't do it without using RE technology. go figure.
Just one more mind boggling thing about FET believers.         
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 07, 2018, 10:39:10 PM
All of those speeds and distances are based on RE assumptions and the RE coordinate system.

If you want someone to go out and take a tape measurer to the route, that kind of investigative work is not possible at this time.
Stating the obvious doesn't work for me Tom. Also the subject here was intended for FET to give some distances and what they use to calculate these distances.
What you posted was all weather phenomena, ocean currents, temperatures and prevailing winds which my influence choice path and speeds you travel but in now way changes the distance from point A to point B.   

Tom has pointed out, many times, even on links that I have given in this thread that these distances are not known. In his flat earth model The "known" distances are created by round earth systems thus will give a round earth result. There is no funded flat earth distance project to create a flat earth measurement system and then measure these vast distances.
I guess that answers my original line of questions. Thanks
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: inquisitive on November 07, 2018, 10:42:21 PM
All of those speeds and distances are based on RE assumptions and the RE coordinate system.

If you want someone to go out and take a tape measurer to the route, that kind of investigative work is not possible at this time.
How would you measure distances?
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: junker on November 07, 2018, 11:05:56 PM
One thing that seems common place among FET is to throw in a plethora of complicated garbble, mostly irrelevant to the subject,  that takes an extremely high level of education to understand. I guess this is an attempt to confuse people in hopes that they will think, "wow he must be really smart so therefor he must be right".
Unfortunately for FET most people on this forum are educated, highly intelligent, have gone out into the real and gained experiences of their and can see this is nothing less than the antics of a "con man". My 6th grade nephew once told me that calculating distances is easy. Also the distance from Santiago to Sydney is well know. A 6th grader. Yet Flat Earthers can't do it without using RE technology. go figure.
Just one more mind boggling thing about FET believers.       

How about you keep your anti-FE rants in the Angry Ranting forum? This post has nothing to do with the topic, and only serves for you to soapbox about your disdain for FE. You have been warned multiple times about this over the last month. Have a few days off to review the rules.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: HorstFue on November 07, 2018, 11:37:38 PM
Ask any round-the-world sailor and they will quickly tell you the stormiest seas, stirred by the strongest winds, are found in the Southern Ocean. These infamously rough latitudes are labelled the "roaring 40s", "furious 50s" and "screaming 60s". ”
The Southern Ocean not the Southern Hemisphere
Main reason: This region has the longest stretches of open water. The longer the stretches on open water are, the greater surface wind force can build up, the longer is the fetch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetch_%28geography%29), the higher the waves.
Surface Winds (measured in 10m hight) have no direct connection to high altitude wind systems or Jet Streams. Ok, an influence on the general weather cannot be denied.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 08, 2018, 03:52:22 AM
Ask any round-the-world sailor and they will quickly tell you the stormiest seas, stirred by the strongest winds, are found in the Southern Ocean. These infamously rough latitudes are labelled the "roaring 40s", "furious 50s" and "screaming 60s". ”
The Southern Ocean not the Southern Hemisphere
Main reason: This region has the longest stretches of open water. The longer the stretches on open water are, the greater surface wind force can build up, the longer is the fetch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetch_%28geography%29), the higher the waves.
Surface Winds (measured in 10m hight) have no direct connection to high altitude wind systems or Jet Streams. Ok, an influence on the general weather cannot be denied.
.

Jeran took us through several levels of altitude in his video
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: rabinoz on November 08, 2018, 04:04:42 AM
Ask any round-the-world sailor and they will quickly tell you the stormiest seas, stirred by the strongest winds, are found in the Southern Ocean. These infamously rough latitudes are labelled the "roaring 40s", "furious 50s" and "screaming 60s". ”
The Southern Ocean not the Southern Hemisphere
Main reason: This region has the longest stretches of open water. The longer the stretches on open water are, the greater surface wind force can build up, the longer is the fetch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetch_%28geography%29), the higher the waves.
Surface Winds (measured in 10m hight) have no direct connection to high altitude wind systems or Jet Streams. Ok, an influence on the general weather cannot be denied.
.

Jeran took us through several levels of altitude in his video
On the "usual FE map" I believe simple map scaling indicates that Sydney to Santiago is over 25,000 km.
A typical QANTAS flight QF27 takes roughly 12 hours (sometimes less). That would make the plane's average ground-speed about 2080 km/hr. Since the cruising speed of a B747-400 is 933 km/h that would require a tail-wind of about 1150 km/hr.

That seems way above any wind speed observed anywhere. Any comments?
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: totallackey on November 08, 2018, 12:07:19 PM
On the "usual FE map" I believe simple map scaling indicates that Sydney to Santiago is over 25,000 km.
Your belief is wrong.

There are exactly the same amount of lines of longitude depicted on the AE map as there are on the Mercator.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: rabinoz on November 08, 2018, 12:43:30 PM
On the "usual FE map" I believe simple map scaling indicates that Sydney to Santiago is over 25,000 km.
Your belief is wrong.

There are exactly the same amount of lines of longitude depicted on the AE map as there are on the Mercator.
True, but that is not the main issue. The spacing between those longitude lines is also extremely important:If you want to check on my "Sydney to Santiago is over 25,000 km" just scale it off an AEP map, such as Gleason's.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/sj97j26qn2pg1sn/1892%20-%20Gleasons%20Map%20-%20Sydney%20to%20Santiago%20-%2025500%20km.png?dl=1)
.
The Wiki states that:
Quote
Erathostenes on Diameter
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Therefore we can take the distance of 500 nautical miles, multiply by 25, and find that the radius of the flat earth is about 12,250 nautical miles. Doubling that figure for the diameter we get a figure of 25,000 miles.
The Wiki's 500 nautical miles" should be 500 statute miles - check it yourself if you like.
This 25,000 miles is almost the same as 40,000 km and this can be easily used to scale that map.

No great accuracy is needed because the difference the quote airline route distance and the AEP map distance is so great.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: iamcpc on November 08, 2018, 10:46:18 PM
Although I usually don't promote the Monopole model, this question is answered by the wider Flat Earth community in the traditional FE model.
The Southern Hemisphere appears to be special place which has much stronger winds than the Northern Hemisphere:

The problem with this is that the flight times are pretty consistent. If winds blowing had a significant impact on flight times we would expect to see planes getting good winds and arriving hours early or hours late.

Furthermore we don't see situations where the same plane makes the trip from Chile to Australia much faster or slower than the same trip the other way.


Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: stack on November 09, 2018, 12:26:18 AM
On the "usual FE map" I believe simple map scaling indicates that Sydney to Santiago is over 25,000 km.
Your belief is wrong.

There are exactly the same amount of lines of longitude depicted on the AE map as there are on the Mercator.

The number of lines of longitude on an AE map versus any other is not relevant to this. In your belief system the airlines and their south of the equator routes are being flown incorrectly. So either they are wrong or you are.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 13, 2018, 10:23:44 PM
Although I usually don't promote the Monopole model, this question is answered by the wider Flat Earth community in the traditional FE model.
The Southern Hemisphere appears to be special place which has much stronger winds than the Northern Hemisphere:

The problem with this is that the flight times are pretty consistent. If winds blowing had a significant impact on flight times we would expect to see planes getting good winds and arriving hours early or hours late.

Furthermore we don't see situations where the same plane makes the trip from Chile to Australia much faster or slower than the same trip the other way.
Commercial flights adjust their seep,(and path) dictated by winds. However most are slight adjustments unless they are lucky enough to use the jet steam. I'm sure most know what the jet stream is. It's a small tube of fast moving air that changes speeds and location seasonally. Commercial flights are time sensitive and adjust their speed to TA scheduled. However private flights do arrive early when they can utilize the winds in their favor. 
The problem, however, with FE map distances is no jets fuel capacity will allow it to make that 25,000 km trip without running out of fuel.  Since we know there are non stop flights both ways between Sydney and Santiago we know the FE maps in question are wrong.   
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 14, 2018, 01:52:52 AM
More proof FET maps are inaccurate and flawed
We've already showed the flaws in Australia to Chile.
Lets look at FE map vs RE maps, distances and flight paths,(non stop)) from
San Fransisco to Tokyo is westward and about 5,100 mile.
New York to Tokyo is about 6,700 give or take. Again from the west across The states and Pacific ocean.
This would be impossible if the earth were flat.
Would anyone like to explain what path you would take on FE and how many miles it would be? 
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 14, 2018, 03:17:04 AM
On the "usual FE map" I believe simple map scaling indicates that Sydney to Santiago is over 25,000 km.
Your belief is wrong.

There are exactly the same amount of lines of longitude depicted on the AE map as there are on the Mercator.
True, but that is not the main issue. The spacing between those longitude lines is also extremely important:
  • on the Globe, starts at zero (km/degree) at the North Pole, reaches a maximum (of 111 km/deg) on the Equator and drops to zero again at the South Pole,

  • on the Mercator Projection, stays constant at all latitudes (but the scale of that projection is known to be correct only at the equator) and
  • on the AE map starts from zero (km/deg) at the North Pole increases to about 175 km/deg at the Equator and finally to 349 km/deg around the "rim".[/li
If you want to check on my "Sydney to Santiago is over 25,000 km" just scale it off an AEP map, such as Gleason's.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/sj97j26qn2pg1sn/1892%20-%20Gleasons%20Map%20-%20Sydney%20to%20Santiago%20-%2025500%20km.png?dl=1)
.
The Wiki states that:
Quote
Erathostenes on Diameter
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Therefore we can take the distance of 500 nautical miles, multiply by 25, and find that the radius of the flat earth is about 12,250 nautical miles. Doubling that figure for the diameter we get a figure of 25,000 miles.
The Wiki's 500 nautical miles" should be 500 statute miles - check it yourself if you like.
This 25,000 miles is almost the same as 40,000 km and this can be easily used to scale that map.

No great accuracy is needed because the difference the quote airline route distance and the AEP map distance is so great.
I'd like to point out some observations from this map.
Straight line flight from Santiago To Sydney puts you in the northern hemisphere directly across the USA.
San Diego to Tokyo you would fly northward up the coast and never lose sight of land. I guessing about 8,000 miles on that map. Reality is different. It's a little over 5,000 miles out across the pacific ocean.
Where's Hawaii on that map. On RE Hawaii is southwest of San Diego about 2,500 miles 
Hawaii is southwest of San Diego. Tokyo northwest of Hawaii.
Hawaii to Tokyo is about 4,000 miles.
How far from San Diego to Hawaii then to Tokyo is it on that FE map?
Sydney to the edge of the world or ice wall on this map, really really close. That brings up a whole new set of questions.


 
 
 
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on November 14, 2018, 10:21:14 AM
More proof FET maps are inaccurate and flawed
To be fair, they don't claim to have an accurate map and say they don't have the resources to make one.
But what they don't do is look at the known distances between places and try to make a map based on those.
If you try to do so then you'll quickly find it's not possible which leaves us with two possibilities
a) The earth isn't flat, or
b) The distances are wrong and the global airline and shipping industry don't actually know how far things are apart or how fast their vessels move despite reliably getting people and goods around the earth every day.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: Curiosity File on November 14, 2018, 06:21:37 PM
More proof FET maps are inaccurate and flawed
To be fair, they don't claim to have an accurate map and say they don't have the resources to make one.
But what they don't do is look at the known distances between places and try to make a map based on those.
If you try to do so then you'll quickly find it's not possible which leaves us with two possibilities
a) The earth isn't flat, or
b) The distances are wrong and the global airline and shipping industry don't actually know how far things are apart or how fast their vessels move despite reliably getting people and goods around the earth every day.
I did more research and believe it or not that 25,000 km is almost accurate if you go to Seattle from Santiago then to Sydney. Seattle, or there about in the USA, is in the flight path on that FE map.
So yeah, stop in New Mexico or somewhere in the United States on your way Ha!.
Change the destination to Perth from Santiago, that flight path would take you over Canada, Russia, and the North pole.
Title: Re: Australia & Chile FET how far apart?
Post by: 321BamBam on November 17, 2018, 07:15:34 PM
Nothing about Flat Earth matches reality. This guy created a great web site that indudes a FE digital model so you can do the reality check yourself

http://walter.bislins.ch/bloge/index.asp