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Flat Earth Theory / Re: Let's start with "Burden of Proof"
« Last post by james38 on Today at 11:29:14 AM »Before I give you a full response, can you tell me what MIC is so I can look it up?
Recent Posts
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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Do Flat Earthers Also Believe In God?
« Last post by Andrew W on October 26, 2020, 10:36:35 PM »Actually most flat earth believers refer to the Bible which makes some references (however vague, actually they're suggestions) about the earth being flat. Since the Bible is believed to be the word of God, he is more involved with this movement than most want to admit.
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Flat Earth Community / Community Within TFES
« Last post by NECollegeResearch on October 26, 2020, 05:53:38 PM »Good morning, all!
To start: if you think I have posted in the wrong forum, please let me know. I'm new here and trying to navigate the different forums is a little bit tricky. I'm happy to move my post if I need to!
I'm going to be upfront with my intentions here. I am doing research for a college English class on online communities and their literacies. I am not talking about literacy in the most commonly used sense of the term, but rather the aspects of your community that help you interact with and find other other people with similar beliefs.
For example: do you all have a certain event that everyone in the community should know about? Any texts that you all refer to? How do you identify each other in public? Is there any slang a new member of the community should know?
I know you get a lot of requests from students looking for information, so I am trying to make this as clear as possible: I am not here to debate or research the Flat Earth Theory itself, just how the members of your online community interact with each other.
If you would like to help or even if this just interests you, please feel free to comment or even DM me! I have also attached my Code of Ethics and a Consent Form if you would like to look at them.
Thank you!
To start: if you think I have posted in the wrong forum, please let me know. I'm new here and trying to navigate the different forums is a little bit tricky. I'm happy to move my post if I need to!
I'm going to be upfront with my intentions here. I am doing research for a college English class on online communities and their literacies. I am not talking about literacy in the most commonly used sense of the term, but rather the aspects of your community that help you interact with and find other other people with similar beliefs.
For example: do you all have a certain event that everyone in the community should know about? Any texts that you all refer to? How do you identify each other in public? Is there any slang a new member of the community should know?
I know you get a lot of requests from students looking for information, so I am trying to make this as clear as possible: I am not here to debate or research the Flat Earth Theory itself, just how the members of your online community interact with each other.
If you would like to help or even if this just interests you, please feel free to comment or even DM me! I have also attached my Code of Ethics and a Consent Form if you would like to look at them.
Thank you!
4
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by Lord Dave on October 26, 2020, 05:08:38 PM »These are all people that Trump hired himself while publicly praising them.Considering Trump's current position, that sure sounds like the deep state to me.
Trump IS the Deep State!
What a twist!
I think the twist is that, even as The Deep State, he still can't beat them.
4D chess against himself and he is such a worthy opponent.
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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by Roundy on October 26, 2020, 01:36:22 PM »These are all people that Trump hired himself while publicly praising them.Considering Trump's current position, that sure sounds like the deep state to me.
Trump IS the Deep State!
What a twist!
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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by Lord Dave on October 26, 2020, 01:23:16 PM »These are all people that Trump hired himself while publicly praising them.Considering Trump's current position, that sure sounds like the deep state to me.
Trump IS the Deep State!
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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by Pete Svarrior on October 26, 2020, 11:29:23 AM »These are all people that Trump hired himself while publicly praising them.Considering Trump's current position, that sure sounds like the deep state to me.
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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by honk on October 26, 2020, 04:26:02 AM »https://www.axios.com/trump-firing-wray-haspel-esper-088cbd70-3524-4625-91f1-dbc985767c71.html
None of this is surprising. Trump has made no secret of the fact that he expects high-ranking officials to be entirely loyal to him and his own personal interests rather than the country, and to do whatever he wants them to regardless of any legal or ethical concerns. Given the high turnover, the horror stories of working in the Trump Administration, and Trump's habit of furiously attacking former hires, we're going to reach a stage (assuming Trump wins) where nobody reliable or competent will want to be associated with him, and Trump will turn more and more to yesmen with no idea of what they're doing and fringe figures who have no business in national politics to staff his administration, and we'll see even more corruption and mismanagement.
And before anyone says it, or even thinks it, this is not Trump coming into conflict with the deep state as he tries to drain the swamp. These are all people that Trump hired himself while publicly praising them.
None of this is surprising. Trump has made no secret of the fact that he expects high-ranking officials to be entirely loyal to him and his own personal interests rather than the country, and to do whatever he wants them to regardless of any legal or ethical concerns. Given the high turnover, the horror stories of working in the Trump Administration, and Trump's habit of furiously attacking former hires, we're going to reach a stage (assuming Trump wins) where nobody reliable or competent will want to be associated with him, and Trump will turn more and more to yesmen with no idea of what they're doing and fringe figures who have no business in national politics to staff his administration, and we'll see even more corruption and mismanagement.
And before anyone says it, or even thinks it, this is not Trump coming into conflict with the deep state as he tries to drain the swamp. These are all people that Trump hired himself while publicly praising them.
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Flat Earth Theory / Re: Let's start with "Burden of Proof"
« Last post by jack44556677 on October 25, 2020, 03:14:15 PM »@james38
A few more thoughts that I realized I didn't express, but feel they are important :
It has been measured as 0, effectively, every time water at rest has ever been measured in the history of humanity. Rejoice! You have your data already. Also, while this is a fine position for the "average joe" you are describing an unacceptable (and unscientific) position for an empirical scientist. We do not get to believe/declare as true something we have no validation for in science. It remains in the realm of unvalidated suspicion/speculation (at absolute best) and mythology/religion (toward the other end of the spectrum) until it is established as real by empirical science. It is all well and good to speculate that the earth is spherical and the oceans curve at rest - however without extraordinary evidence to support the extraordinary claim - this baseless claim is merely that.
I am so glad you said (and understand) both of these things. The vast majority involved in this discussion do not.
Nothing! Though because science requires no (and is hindered by) trust, it isn't relevant. My guideline is, trust - but verify. If their findings can't, won't and/or have not been repeated independently - they aren't science at all. In my opinion you are thinking along the right lines here, and measurement of that curve (or distinct lack thereof, which all measurements that exist have well established and galvanized into hydrostatic law - unchallenged for centuries) is the best way forward. I recommend performing the observations/measurements on a large lake that was, ideally, frozen under mostly still conditions. You would not be the first to conduct such measurements, nor should you be the last. There is no substitute for real knowledge that only rigorous and validated experience can provide.
It is a common and defensible view, however it is not really required to be wrong about the shape of the world. I say that for the purposes of scientific discussion, irreproducible "science" with no oversight - like the footage we receive from NASA et al is not admissible in the discussion on those grounds alone. Speculation (and even evidence) as to hoaxes/fraud and the rest of it are tangential and not central to the topic.
No, we most certainly can not. Let's say the picture is valid and real. Perhaps (pictures can never serve as the sole evidence/proof - but hypothetically speaking...), merely with that one picture, we have established that antarctica is not a ring that encircles the world (which was merely a speculation anyway) - but we have a LOT more world to cover in order to establish the shape of the entire thing! Right?
Whenever you catch yourself, or anyone else, talking about how no other interpretation of the data/phenomenon is possible (or anything is impossible, really) - you are most likely suffering from bias and a lack of imagination. It is all to do with that clarke's law I mentioned. The picture could indeed be quite real, the world could still be flat, and antarctica is just not a ring that encircles the world! There is almost never only one possible explanation, at least in potentia.
Trust is a funny thing. You can spend a lifetime building it, and then in one mistake/f*up/violation of it and "poof" - up it goes. The entity of NASA had full trust, the way only hubris and nationalistic pride could ever assure and deliver. They violated it repeatedly. The trust was theirs to lose - and they lost the absolute hell out of it. This is of course, all a matter of historical record - though there are contemporary examples as well.
I recognize, as you most likely do, that it is a one way ticket - and this isn't really right. Trust is very hard to build, but once violated it is almost impossible to restore. Even the mere accusation of violating trust (no smoke without fire, or so the gullible meat puppets believe) is enough to ruin/tarnish most people forever. This is not a scientific aspect or assessment however, as trust plays no role in science except detriment. Nasa, largely, doesn't practice science, and it has no science to share. They are merely a production company that makes propagandist footage and spectacle, but I do not expect and do not want you to take my word, nor any others, on this. Nothing can be accepted, regardless of source, without adequate validation first!
A few more thoughts that I realized I didn't express, but feel they are important :
Quote
I can simply use the inverse of your convex hypothesis! If the convex were measured as 0, I would reject the globe earth theory.
It has been measured as 0, effectively, every time water at rest has ever been measured in the history of humanity. Rejoice! You have your data already. Also, while this is a fine position for the "average joe" you are describing an unacceptable (and unscientific) position for an empirical scientist. We do not get to believe/declare as true something we have no validation for in science. It remains in the realm of unvalidated suspicion/speculation (at absolute best) and mythology/religion (toward the other end of the spectrum) until it is established as real by empirical science. It is all well and good to speculate that the earth is spherical and the oceans curve at rest - however without extraordinary evidence to support the extraordinary claim - this baseless claim is merely that.
Quote
I agree we can ignore calculations of convex as evidence for globe earth thoery since that's obviously circular reasoning. We need real measurements. not calculations.
I am so glad you said (and understand) both of these things. The vast majority involved in this discussion do not.
Quote
Now suppose NHWA (National Hydronautics and Water Administration) goes and conducts this test... I think you see where I am going with this. What would stop you from just disbelieving those scientists?
Nothing! Though because science requires no (and is hindered by) trust, it isn't relevant. My guideline is, trust - but verify. If their findings can't, won't and/or have not been repeated independently - they aren't science at all. In my opinion you are thinking along the right lines here, and measurement of that curve (or distinct lack thereof, which all measurements that exist have well established and galvanized into hydrostatic law - unchallenged for centuries) is the best way forward. I recommend performing the observations/measurements on a large lake that was, ideally, frozen under mostly still conditions. You would not be the first to conduct such measurements, nor should you be the last. There is no substitute for real knowledge that only rigorous and validated experience can provide.
Quote
I think your disbelief in NASA is, in fact, the most foundational and unifying proposition in your camp.
It is a common and defensible view, however it is not really required to be wrong about the shape of the world. I say that for the purposes of scientific discussion, irreproducible "science" with no oversight - like the footage we receive from NASA et al is not admissible in the discussion on those grounds alone. Speculation (and even evidence) as to hoaxes/fraud and the rest of it are tangential and not central to the topic.
Quote
Yes yes yes, we can!
No, we most certainly can not. Let's say the picture is valid and real. Perhaps (pictures can never serve as the sole evidence/proof - but hypothetically speaking...), merely with that one picture, we have established that antarctica is not a ring that encircles the world (which was merely a speculation anyway) - but we have a LOT more world to cover in order to establish the shape of the entire thing! Right?
Quote
The only possible way that this picture exists at the same time as the earth not being a globe is if the picture is a hoax.
Whenever you catch yourself, or anyone else, talking about how no other interpretation of the data/phenomenon is possible (or anything is impossible, really) - you are most likely suffering from bias and a lack of imagination. It is all to do with that clarke's law I mentioned. The picture could indeed be quite real, the world could still be flat, and antarctica is just not a ring that encircles the world! There is almost never only one possible explanation, at least in potentia.
Quote
But tell me how this is falsifiable
Trust is a funny thing. You can spend a lifetime building it, and then in one mistake/f*up/violation of it and "poof" - up it goes. The entity of NASA had full trust, the way only hubris and nationalistic pride could ever assure and deliver. They violated it repeatedly. The trust was theirs to lose - and they lost the absolute hell out of it. This is of course, all a matter of historical record - though there are contemporary examples as well.
I recognize, as you most likely do, that it is a one way ticket - and this isn't really right. Trust is very hard to build, but once violated it is almost impossible to restore. Even the mere accusation of violating trust (no smoke without fire, or so the gullible meat puppets believe) is enough to ruin/tarnish most people forever. This is not a scientific aspect or assessment however, as trust plays no role in science except detriment. Nasa, largely, doesn't practice science, and it has no science to share. They are merely a production company that makes propagandist footage and spectacle, but I do not expect and do not want you to take my word, nor any others, on this. Nothing can be accepted, regardless of source, without adequate validation first!
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Flat Earth Media / Talk Is Jericho (Podcast) w/ David Weiss - "Flat Earth Philosophy"
« Last post by Damian528Hz on October 25, 2020, 02:42:16 PM »https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vV1dPOTc0MTAzMTQ4NQ/episode/ZGU4ZDNhZjktMjg5NS00ZDA3LWI0ZTktYThjMDAxNDQ4MjVh
Here is an amazing podcast explaining Flat Earth Philosophy. The guest is a very educated man & it is hosted by 'Le Champion' himself, Chris Jericho.
Here is an amazing podcast explaining Flat Earth Philosophy. The guest is a very educated man & it is hosted by 'Le Champion' himself, Chris Jericho.