The Flat Earth Society

Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 06:15:43 PM

Title: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 06:15:43 PM
In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on January 24, 2014, 06:41:37 PM
What's the deal with airplane peanuts?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 06:43:54 PM
Please elaborate. I haven't been on a plane in yrs.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on January 24, 2014, 08:04:03 PM
If the body is a temple meant to be kept pristine, e.g. don't get tattoos,  why are small Jewish boys subjected to ceremonial genital mutilation, thus damaging the temple?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 08:45:26 PM
Duck, interesting! I never looked @ it that way. The command in the Scripture was given. No explanation. However, the Jewish Bible, to my knowledge, & correct me if I'm off on this, says nothing about body as temple business. That's Pauline, NT Christian stuff. Getting circumcised differentiated us then & now from those not of the Covenant. The same is true of NOT shaving or getting tatoos. For Christians, something had to replace the Temple, so the temple of the Holy Ghost did (the body). For Jews, the Jerusalem Temple will be rebuilt in the days of Messiah.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 10:10:04 PM
Saddam, when do you plan on engaging in coitus w/ your nearest female relative in order to continue the inbreeding from which you so obviously come?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on January 24, 2014, 10:14:48 PM
For Christians, something had to replace the Temple, so the temple of the Holy Ghost did (the body).
We call it a church.

When do you plan on fucking off back to whatever website you came from?
Stop being butthurt that we picked up a Jew. They are everywhere. Whilst he is here, he isn't thinking up ways to hoard gold.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 24, 2014, 10:20:29 PM
Stop being butthurt that we picked up a Jew. They are everywhere. Whilst he is here, he isn't thinking up ways to hoard gold.

But maybe bitcoins.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 24, 2014, 10:25:15 PM
Why is completing an electrical circuit considered "work" and is forbidden by some on the sabbath?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 10:40:58 PM
Well, the Orthodox classify that as 'starting a fire'. So, by their standard, its ok for me to walk 38 blocks to shul, but not to get in a car & drive or even ride there! Go figure. I don't classify myself as strictly Orthodox, or any movement. I consider that they all have good things to offer. I re: myself as moderately traditional, but I do ride on Sabbath. If I owned a car, I'd drive, & did, when I did own one.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Excelsior John on January 24, 2014, 10:42:23 PM
In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.
Yeah I have a question: why the flip do jewish people act like jewish is a race when it is a religion?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on January 24, 2014, 10:43:57 PM
In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.
Yeah I have a question: why the flip do jewish people act like jewish is a race when it is a religion?
So they can accuse you of being racist when you question their despicable actions. See Israel.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 10:45:27 PM
1/32 is ignored. Everybody else, please continue.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 11:32:14 PM
Seeing what Thork said, I'll respond to that. Jews are not, and never have been, a race, nor do we pretend to be. We are an ethnic group, which is quite different. A Jew shares DNA with another Jew that he does not share with you. A Levite shares DNA with another Levite that he does not even share with other Jews. A Cohen shares even closer DNA with another Cohen that he does not share with Levites or other Jews, although Cohens are Levites and both of them are Jews. I shan't go on at length because I've discussed this matter to the point of wanting to vomit in other threads, on both Flat Earth websites. As far as doing things with which a person might disagree, anyone can disagree with a given action of the State of Israel without being anti-Semitic. But when one expects Israel to act differently than other nations might act when faced with similar circumstances, that IS anti-Semitic, and needs to be called out.

So, that having been said, I think I've responded to Thork reasonably well. Responding to 1/32 isn't necessary. He is ignored. The rest of you, please continue. I won't respond to 1/32 unless one of you does, like Thork did. Otherwise, he will be ignored.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 24, 2014, 11:48:32 PM
It's not anti-Semitic since, by definition Arabs are a Semitic people as well. But please keep on trying to appropriate it. It would be difficult for other nations to be in the position that Israel believes itself to be since there can be only one land of milk and honey right?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 11:56:13 PM
If you prefer, I shall use the term "anti-Jewish". We did not not invent the term "anti-Semite". That was a German in the late 19th Century who hated Jews. He called himself an anti-Semite. It wasn't Hitler, who was Austrian. I forget the dude's name, actually. I could probably find it, but I don't care to. You're right. Arabs are Semites, and there are a few more people that are as well, or at least that use Semitic languages (some various folk in Ethiopia).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Excelsior John on January 25, 2014, 01:42:26 AM
In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.
Yeah I have a question: why the flip do jewish people act like jewish is a race when it is a religion?
So they can accuse you of being racist when you question their despicable actions. See Israel.
Exacley I have much disdan for israel they STOL the lands from the palastinens!!!
1/32 is ignored. Everybody else, please continue.
Yakoov (hear ill call you "Jewish is a race ::)" for now on ;D) if your going to make a thred were we can ask jewish dude a question you gota be able to anser everey question. Looks pretey bad on your part and I think/know evereyone here can agre with me
Seeing what Thork said, I'll respond to that. Jews are not, and never have been, a race, nor do we pretend to be. We are an ethnic group, which is quite different. A Jew shares DNA with another Jew that he does not share with you. A Levite shares DNA with another Levite that he does not even share with other Jews. A Cohen shares even closer DNA with another Cohen that he does not share with Levites or other Jews, although Cohens are Levites and both of them are Jews. I shan't go on at length because I've discussed this matter to the point of wanting to vomit in other threads, on both Flat Earth websites. As far as doing things with which a person might disagree, anyone can disagree with a given action of the State of Israel without being anti-Semitic. But when one expects Israel to act differently than other nations might act when faced with similar circumstances, that IS anti-Semitic, and needs to be called out.

So, that having been said, I think I've responded to Thork reasonably well. Responding to 1/32 isn't necessary. He is ignored. The rest of you, please continue. I won't respond to 1/32 unless one of you does, like Thork did. Otherwise, he will be ignored.
Thats onley becuz jewish has a supa crazey rule were you can onley marey felow jewish people. (rascism much?) and thats why there so geneticeley in comon. Its stil a religon. Its like how cathlics can onley marey cathliks. Idiot
It's not anti-Semitic since, by definition Arabs are a Semitic people as well. But please keep on trying to appropriate it. It would be difficult for other nations to be in the position that Israel believes itself to be since there can be only one land of milk and honey right?
Jewish is a Semitic religon not a Semitic people
If you prefer, I shall use the term "anti-Jewish". We did not not invent the term "anti-Semite". That was a German in the late 19th Century who hated Jews. He called himself an anti-Semite. It wasn't Hitler, who was Austrian. I forget the dude's name, actually. I could probably find it, but I don't care to. You're right. Arabs are Semites, and there are a few more people that are as well, or at least that use Semitic languages (some various folk in Ethiopia).
What?!! Etheopeins are AFRICAN AMERICANS not semitic!!!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 01:45:10 AM
1/32 is being ignored. The rest of you, please continue.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on January 25, 2014, 01:55:23 AM
When is Israel secretly planning to nuke a populated city and blame it on Iran? I know they have some sort of secret Jew News Network they broadcast on Jew frequencies.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on January 25, 2014, 01:56:37 AM
It's so nice to just read a long string of "You are ignoring this user. Show me the post." messages.
Yeah, you are all ignoring him, and posting it ad nausium every time he posts is a real treat for everyone else. ::)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on January 25, 2014, 01:57:35 AM
How do you ignore users? I can't find the button for it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on January 25, 2014, 01:57:52 AM
Yaakov, in your opinion, what is the best way to achieve peace in the middle east? I know it's a broad question, so feel free to focus on just Israel and Palestine.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 02:07:55 AM
IRUSH, no comment. Benjamin, that is a DANGEROUS question. My own distaste for Arabs of any variety, and Muslims of any sort, means that my solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem would be to compensate all Arabs in Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip monetarily for any property they own and then deport them to the Arab country of their choice, of which their are 22. I am NOT the best person to ask that question, and I shall freely admit that my reactions are utterly beyond rational. I can feel my blood boil just thinking about it.

I apologise, Benjamin. I don't mean to be harsh. I'm no Nazi, I'm not into murder, or any crazy batshit stuff like that. But I freely admit that my reaction is not at all fair or rational by most people's standards. Forgive my inability to communicate on that subject. Ask me ANYTHING else but that, please.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 03:02:33 AM
Israel is handling the situation far more delicately than I would, by NOT engaging in what is politely termed 'population transfer'. In fact, notice that any Arab, even in the Occupied Territories, can stand on a street corner w/ a picture of Netanyahu that says, 'Netanyahu sucks ass.' That's his legal right. Try to do that in Saudi Arabia, or pretty much ANY Arab country, w/ a pic of its leader. 'The Ayatollah sucks ass.' Ok, not Arab, but you get my point. You go bye-bye real quick.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on January 25, 2014, 03:16:48 AM
Israel is bordering on genocide. I'm sorry, but you can't pretend they're entirely justified
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 03:26:20 AM
If Israel were bordering on genocide, they'd have succeeded. How many Arabs of the Occupied Territories have been killed? I want numbers, real figures. Not just fuzzy 'Oh, people die.' No shit. Every yr, Israel prevents app. 800 terrorist attacks on its soil. The latest was intended for the US Embassy. Funny, the Chinese have been far more brutal to Tibet in their occupation there, I don't hear anyone saying genocide there. When I see the Jordan River run red w/ blood like the rivers of Rwanda in '94, which I won't, then I'll take a claim like that seriously.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 03:31:26 AM
Mind you, I'm not saying that military occupation is fun. Not for Arabs, Tibetans, or for the Irish (until '98). Life sucks sometimes. But occupation & genocide are two different things.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on January 25, 2014, 03:32:52 AM
If Israel were bordering on genocide, they'd have succeeded. How many Arabs of the Occupied Territories have been killed? I want numbers, real figures. Not just fuzzy 'Oh, people die.' No shit. Every yr, Israel prevents app. 800 terrorist attacks on its soil. The latest was intended for the US Embassy. Funny, the Chinese have been far more brutal to Tibet in their occupation there, I don't hear anyone saying genocide there. When I see the Jordan River run red w/ blood like the rivers of Rwanda in '94, which I won't, then I'll take a claim like that seriously.

You don't hear people arguing about Tibet because it isn't controversial. Everyone with an opinion on the matter, more or less, agrees that China is guilty of disgusting human rights violations.

Anyway, I'm sure all of the dead children were evil terrorists out to get the pure, innocent Israelites

All I'm saying is that you can't pretend that Israel isn't at least half at fault
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 03:44:41 AM
Let me point out that occupation sucks. It also happens that the Arabs of the OT like to build rocket launchers next to kindergartens. Then, when kiddies die, they blame the IDF. This has been verified by the UN & other international forces.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 03:49:10 AM
& I never said Israel didn't fuck up on occasion. & when they do, their own Supreme Court is pretty good @ calling them out on it. & Israel is the only occupying power in the world that allows the occupied to sue in Israeli Courts, & they often win when they do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 04:01:54 AM
Well, I think we've tangled assholes enough on that topic. I did warn you all that I could get quite heated on the subject of the Arab-Israeli problem. I strongly suggest we move on to other issues. Politics is fine, just not THOSE politics.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on January 25, 2014, 05:09:07 AM
IRUSH, no comment.

I'll find out your Jew secrets eventually. You might as well give them up now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: rooster on January 25, 2014, 05:32:36 AM
IRUSH, no comment.

I'll find out your Jew secrets eventually. You might as well give them up now.
I actually lol'd.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on January 25, 2014, 10:35:07 AM
Please elaborate. I haven't been on a plane in yrs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzE7xN65E7Q

Why are Teh Jews obsessed with finding little bugs in salad? I mean, we figured out about 200 years ago that we're covered with crawling bugs (http://insects.about.com/od/ticksmites/f/Do-We-Really-Have-Bugs-Living-In-Our-Eyebrows.htm), right?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 25, 2014, 10:57:58 AM
You’re a Jew. If there was another wailing wall, exactly like the one in Jerusalem, but close to taco stands and cheap prescription drugs, would you still be able to wail at it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 25, 2014, 12:47:44 PM
Getting circumcised differentiated us then & now from those not of the Covenant.
Don't basically all American males get circumcised? A fair few people from Islamic countries that I know have also been circumcised. It doesn't seem to differentiate you at all, unless all you care about is being different from Europeans.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 01:57:08 PM
From what I understand, Americans did that for about 30 yrs as a cleanliness measure, but no longer do so much any more. The Arabs are the children of Ishmael, Abraham's oldest by Hagar, & like him, do it @ age 13. Other Muslims do the same. I've read Qur'an & some of the Sunnah of the Prophet & have seen the command to circumcise, but never the reason. In the Bible, the reason is clear: to make him part of the Covenant. Why by that method I don't know. But why Muslims do it is irrelevant, ultimately. They not of the Covenant. We are. What Scripture tells us to do, we do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 25, 2014, 02:17:32 PM
From what I understand, Americans did that for about 30 yrs as a cleanliness measure, but no longer do so much any more.
I can't claim to be certain of this, but as far as I know it's still a thing. Perhaps the Americans in this thread could weigh in?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on January 25, 2014, 02:45:26 PM
It is definitely still fairly normal in America.  My sister had a boy a little over a year ago and they circumcised him.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on January 25, 2014, 02:47:56 PM
I hope you slapped her.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on January 25, 2014, 04:03:27 PM
From what I understand, Americans did that for about 30 yrs as a cleanliness measure, but no longer do so much any more. The Arabs are the children of Ishmael, Abraham's oldest by Hagar, & like him, do it @ age 13. Other Muslims do the same. I've read Qur'an & some of the Sunnah of the Prophet & have seen the command to circumcise, but never the reason. In the Bible, the reason is clear: to make him part of the Covenant. Why by that method I don't know. But why Muslims do it is irrelevant, ultimately. They not of the Covenant. We are. What Scripture tells us to do, we do.

The Bible (Old Test) talks about The Covenant? Doesn't that mean it covers everyone, Jews, Christians, Muslims?

Also you didn't answer my last question.  :'(
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Hoppy on January 25, 2014, 05:49:32 PM
Why do Jews have a big nose?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: bj1234 on January 25, 2014, 06:30:50 PM
So they can smell the gold easier? ;D

What is the reason for not eating dairy product with meat products?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: rooster on January 25, 2014, 06:42:02 PM
From what I understand, Americans did that for about 30 yrs as a cleanliness measure, but no longer do so much any more.
I can't claim to be certain of this, but as far as I know it's still a thing. Perhaps the Americans in this thread could weigh in?
Yep, still pretty normal. The one person I was aware of being uncircumcised had British parents. Americans are starting to catch on that it's a totally useless practice but still mostly happens for the social norm of it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 06:49:30 PM
Please repeat the last question. The son of the Promise was Isaac, & his son Jacob [Israel] (who got the birthright from his father), & his sons the Twelve Tribes of Israel were those of the Covenant. God did make of the Children of Ishmael a great nation, but they were not of the Covenant. The meat-dairy thing is a derivative of the Torah law of not boiling a kid in its mother's milk. The Rabbis made the law stronger to 'put a fence around the Torah'. If you didn't break the stricter law, you couldn't break the written one. This also explains why I'm traditional, but not precisely Orthodox.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 06:53:32 PM
Fap, little bugs in salad? I've never encountered that. But if one is going to use ranch dressing, which is dairy, bugs might count as meat, I suppose.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Roundy on January 25, 2014, 07:36:41 PM
Why do Jews have a big nose?

Because air is free.

@Yaakov: Just out of curiosity do you keep kosher?  Why do the kosher laws exist (or is it even a case of rationality vs "God says this so this"?  I'm just curious; my mother has a theory about kosher law that it was originally about cleanliness in many cases (like, pigs and shellfish, being such utterly filthy animals), although she maintains that the meat and milk combo is purely a matter of ethics.  What do you think?

For the record I'd die before permanently giving up bacon, lobster, and cheeseburgers, but as I'm sure I've made clear I'm not a religious Jew.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 08:06:05 PM
Roundy, I keep as close to kosher as possible. By this I mean that I avoid the forbidden animals. Because kosher slaughtered beef is not available in my city, I do eat regular beef. But when I can, I look for the kosher label on products like canned goods. As far as why kosher exists, I think your mother has something there. For example, lobster & other forbidden seafood are usually bottom-feeders, ie, they eat shit. However, it does ultimately come down to 'God said so.' I had no idea you were Jewish @ all. Cool. My family isn't religious either.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 08:16:27 PM
I believe that no Jew has the right to tell another Jew how to be a Jew. For example, I'm @ a certain point & level of observance right now. I used to be less kosher. I want to be more kosher. But living in my city that is not possible w/o kosher markets & being in a tiny apt w/ a kitchen that can never be made kosher. I don't want some arrogant Orthodox prig telling me I'm not a good Jew. So I'll never tell a non-religious Jew that they are not a good Jew. If they want my help in becoming what I think is a better Jew, hey, they've got it, but otherwise, I respect where they're @, where I once was. We have to work together, & infighting is just stupid.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on January 25, 2014, 08:25:28 PM
I believe that no Jew has the right to tell another Jew how to be a Jew.
What about Moses?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 08:33:36 PM
Thork, obviously, that's different, wise-ass! But I walked into that I guess. LOL.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on January 25, 2014, 08:37:41 PM
A bacon lobster cheeseburger sounds delicious.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 09:50:42 PM
Irush, forget about kosher laws, that just sounds nasty.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spoon on January 25, 2014, 10:03:44 PM
A bacon lobster cheeseburger

would eat.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on January 27, 2014, 10:57:53 AM
Would you invite me for dinner?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 27, 2014, 11:02:31 AM
Sure, why not?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on January 27, 2014, 11:04:21 AM
I might offend your religious family.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on January 27, 2014, 04:40:18 PM
A bacon lobster cheeseburger sounds delicious.
Yes, it does.
http://www.yummly.com/recipe/Surf-n_-turf-burger-_grilled-burger-with-lobster-and-bacon_-367955
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/CWR0k32_B-OE0tHlilRMSjQqYKa-n4TkS02fWufn9cYtZN8IkBr3npU4YTDgTlZSVgBbX4-8UuZKz0ZHsxtXHC8=s730)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on January 27, 2014, 05:55:38 PM
It doesn't look as delicious as it sounds.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Alchemist21 on January 27, 2014, 06:33:52 PM
How do you even fit that into your mouth?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Roundy on January 28, 2014, 02:12:07 AM
Somewhat ironic: kosher salt is one of the ingredients.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on January 28, 2014, 02:39:48 AM
Oops.  Looks like you have to add your own cheese.  :-[
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 28, 2014, 04:49:57 AM
Would you stone a guy for picking up sticks on a Saturday?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spoon on January 28, 2014, 05:12:15 AM
y r jew?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 05:40:28 AM
Pizza, full Torah Observance is only possible in the days of Messiah. Spoon, I'm uncertain as to what your question means. If you are asking 'Why are you a Jew', well, because I am. If you mean, why am I an Observant Jew when my family isn't & I wasn't raised as such, the answer is multi-faceted. But, in simplest terms, I am a Jew because God has called me to serve Him in that unique way. He has never abandoned His People Israel, & I believe it is my duty to uphold my end of the Covenant, as He has upheld His.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on January 28, 2014, 05:47:16 AM
Actually, I don't wanna have dinner with you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spank86 on January 28, 2014, 09:32:11 AM
Why do Jews have a big nose?

Because air is free.

@Yaakov: Just out of curiosity do you keep kosher?  Why do the kosher laws exist (or is it even a case of rationality vs "God says this so this"?  I'm just curious; my mother has a theory about kosher law that it was originally about cleanliness in many cases (like, pigs and shellfish, being such utterly filthy animals), although she maintains that the meat and milk combo is purely a matter of ethics.  What do you think?

For the record I'd die before permanently giving up bacon, lobster, and cheeseburgers, but as I'm sure I've made clear I'm not a religious Jew.

Interesting idea although Pigs are actually pretty clean animals. I seem to remember hearing somewhere a suggestion that it was mostly stuff that would go bad quickly in a hot climate and so the laws were to prevent people from getting sick from gone off food?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 03:10:30 PM
Do you have any idea what pigs will eat? They are scavenging animals. Hardly a clean beast.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 28, 2014, 03:12:21 PM
If they are domesticated, they will eat what you feed them.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: rooster on January 28, 2014, 03:14:26 PM
I just think pig tastes nasty regardless. I never eat it pork.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 03:32:50 PM
Rama, that is true. ANYTHING you feed them.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 28, 2014, 03:58:27 PM
Rama, that is true. ANYTHING you feed them.

Yeah!  So if you feed a pig quality food are they dirty animals?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 04:14:54 PM
Well, I suppose not. But ask your avg hog farmer what he feeds his pigs. I live in Iowa. Hogs are big business around here as you would guess. They are cheap to feed & raise, cheaper by far than cattle. If farmers were to have to start treating pigs like cattle, their meat would cost as much as beef. The incentive to own them would disappear. So, given what they eat in the wild, & what humans are inclined to give to them even under domestication, I think the designation of the pig as 'filth' stands.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spank86 on January 28, 2014, 04:23:00 PM
Do you have any idea what pigs will eat? They are scavenging animals. Hardly a clean beast.

Well being as they're omnivorous they'll eat anything but in the diet of wild pigs carrion and other refuse would form an extremely small part.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 04:25:21 PM
Hm, I was told differently. But even a small part is still a part.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spank86 on January 28, 2014, 04:30:59 PM
Hm, I was told differently. But even a small part is still a part.

Cows eat grass they've pissed on.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 04:40:32 PM
I assume that's true. All animals, by virtue of being witless beasts, do things that people would not do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spank86 on January 28, 2014, 04:57:40 PM
I assume that's true. All animals, by virtue of being witless beasts, do things that people would not do.

Exactly. Making pigs generally no more unclean in their diet than other animals.

Cows are a good example in many ways, the whole BSE issue in England was allegedly exacerbated by the delightful process of feeding them (in part) their deceased brethren.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 05:07:29 PM
Yes. I agree. But a cow, when left to its own devices, feeds on grass (even peed-upon, I'll grant). A pig, when left to its own devices, feeds on God knows what.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spank86 on January 28, 2014, 06:07:04 PM
Yes. I agree. But a cow, when left to its own devices, feeds on grass (even peed-upon, I'll grant). A pig, when left to its own devices, feeds on God knows what.
Acorns, roots, tubers, and yes the occasional carrion (otherwise known as meat... potentially meat from a dead cow that's eaten peed upon grass, ewww).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 28, 2014, 07:43:30 PM
Yes. I agree. But a cow, when left to its own devices, feeds on grass (even peed-upon, I'll grant). A pig, when left to its own devices, feeds on God knows what.

The potential for eating dubious food stuffs is an unimportant consideration. Why are t you considering what they actually eat?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on January 28, 2014, 08:10:15 PM
Do you have a pouch of jew gold hanging from your neck?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on January 28, 2014, 08:18:47 PM
I am a Jew because God has called me to serve Him in that unique way.
Did God tell you to be mean to EJ?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 11:49:40 PM
EJ called me to be mean to EJ. As for what animals usually eat v. what they could eat, I'll grant your point. In theory, its probably possible to negate the need for some of the kosher laws depending on how you keep, & what you feed, a pig. But I don't see farmers doing that. & there is also the point that the laws exist & should be followed because God told us to, reason irrelevant. Of COURSE I have a pouch of Jew gold hanging from my neck! I'd never leave home w/o it! [Says the man on Disability who barely has 2 pennies to rub together].
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 28, 2014, 11:52:07 PM
If you met someone who could prove they were an Amalachite would you rape and/or kill them?  Or do you think you killed them all the first time?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 29, 2014, 12:02:14 AM
Well, if you don't ask questions that would cross a Rabbi's eyes! To my knowledge, Amalekites do not exist. I have heard some argue that the Arabs of the Occupied Territories are Amalekites. I don't accept this myself. If they DID exist, would that call for a holy war against them? Good God, I don't know how to answer a question like that! Thank God they don't, is all I can say.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Hoppy on January 29, 2014, 01:23:34 AM
Do you have a pouch of jew gold hanging from your neck?
Yes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2014, 01:26:07 AM
Why would you doubt that you should wage war with any Amalekite you encounter?  Do you think God was ambiguous in what he felt the lot of the Amalekites should be?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 29, 2014, 02:25:21 AM
That is a fair question. How to answer questions like this is why there different forms of Judaism. For example, Orthodoxy believes the Temple will be rebuilt & the animal sacrifice restored. For them, killing an Amalekite, if 1 existed, would be obligatory. The Reform believe the Synagogue replaced the Temple. Similarly, the command of the Prophets later in the Bible to love thy neighbour outweighs the command to kill. The prophetic emphasis on God as a universal God, rather than just the God of Israel, makes him God of the Amalekites (if any) just as much as God of the Jews. So the question is, is Judaism a religion of set immutable laws that must be followed come hell or high water, or is it a philosophy such that the spirit of the law changes as people change in their understanding of themselves, each other, & their God? We have seen that Orthodoxy & Reform have 2 very different answers to this question. My own answer is in the middle somewhere. Some would call me a Conservative Jew. I prefer to avoid
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 29, 2014, 02:28:25 AM
denominational labels. I am a moderately traditional Jew. I prefer to work out my salvation w/ respect for all the various understandings of Judaism that exist, & to take the best of each.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Roundy on January 29, 2014, 03:33:17 AM
What is your opinion of atheists?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 29, 2014, 03:45:46 AM
My brother & his wife are both atheists. I'm certainly not in agreement w/ them, but I respect their right to hold their views. Most atheists I've known have been sincerely unable to commit to belief in a Deity for which they can find no empirical proof. I don't blame them. Although I am willing to accept religious &/or philosophical proofs for God's existence, I understand that others are not prepared to do this.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Alchemist21 on January 29, 2014, 07:20:38 AM
How does the Jewish faith view interfaith marriages?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 29, 2014, 07:32:56 AM
Pizza, full Torah Observance is only possible in the days of Messiah.
Why?

Also, I was wondering about you, personally. Would you do it if you saw someone disrespecting the Sabbath?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spank86 on January 29, 2014, 08:05:36 AM
Why would you doubt that you should wage war with any Amalekite you encounter?  Do you think God was ambiguous in what he felt the lot of the Amalekites should be?
Genetics perhaps?

By this time it would be extremely unlikely for anyone to be purely Amalekite in the absence of a lot of inbreeding.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 29, 2014, 02:33:14 PM
Alchemist, Orthodoxy & the Conservative movement forbid such marriages. In the event that 2 persons wish to marry in the Jewish community, the non-Jew must become a Jew. The Reform & Reconstructionist movements permit intermarriage. Pizza, no, I would not. Then again, I don't live in a place like KJ either. Try going through there in a bathing suit, or even your woman not covering her head. You might get stuff thrown @ you. The reason Torah will not be in full force til Messiah comes is because the Jewish Commonwealth cannot be set up, or the Temple rebuilt & dedicated, w/o him. & it is the Jewish Kingdom of Israel in the reign of Messiah that will impose Torah Observance.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on January 29, 2014, 02:37:42 PM
How does the Jewish faith view interfaith marriages?

My mom did that. My dad is Catholic and my mom is Jewish. It really depends on the community. The relatively progressive jewish community of Atlantic City was fine with it. She works in a hasidic community, though, and from my understanding hasidic jews who do the same thing get exiled.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on March 21, 2014, 08:16:13 PM
hasidic jews who do the same thing get exiled.

Without irony.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on March 21, 2014, 10:50:48 PM
I don't think I know any Jewish people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on March 21, 2014, 11:31:21 PM
How do I get rid of dry and flaky skin under my beard?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on March 21, 2014, 11:45:10 PM
remove beard
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on March 22, 2014, 12:15:20 AM
Unacceptable.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on March 22, 2014, 12:32:44 AM
Does Jerry Seinfeld channel his jokes through YHWH?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on March 22, 2014, 01:12:33 AM
How often do you have to sing Hava Nagila?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on March 26, 2014, 10:27:04 PM
Where is that tardy Jew? We have questions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on March 27, 2014, 06:04:46 PM
Hello. Sorry for my rather lengthy absence. Greetings. Back now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on March 27, 2014, 06:06:07 PM
How does one become a Jew? Considering it's a religion, it'd have to be possible. Also, I have a phobia of going through the different pages of threads, so if you already answered, just let me know.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on March 27, 2014, 06:59:36 PM
How does one become a Jew? Considering it's a religion, it'd have to be possible.

Be born a Jew. Because Judaism is a religion it's possible to be born a Jew.

You can convert, but that not really the same thing. You basically become one of those "familiars" from the Blade films.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on March 27, 2014, 11:08:55 PM
Yes, one can convert to Judaism, & be accepted into the Jewish Faith & People. Because being Jewish encompasses being culturally, ethnically, & religiously Jewish, conversion to Judaism requires more work than most faiths which do not have the ethnic or cultural components. Each movement of Judaism has differing requirements for conversion. For that matter, each Rabbi does things a bit differently. Furthermore, conversion by one movement doesn't guarantee acceptance by other movements. It can be complicated. However, all conversions will require 1-3 yrs prep time during which there must be learning about Jewish Faith & life. Generally, the more liberal the movement, the shorter the conversion process. If you wish particular information about a movement's requirements, let me know & I shall endeavour to provide it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 14, 2014, 02:50:13 PM
Let us mark the passing of 3 innocent people for the Sanctification of the Holy Name of God. Although 2 were not Jews, the coward who shot them outside a Jewish community center didn't know that. As for the shooting @ the assisted living facility, her identity is unknown @ present. But she too died as a Jew, whether she was one or not. May they all make an aliah to God on High, & may their innocent deaths teach us the value of life. And may the coward who perpetrated this act against innocents be punished to the fullest extent of the law, & may his name be forever blotted out from memory.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on April 14, 2014, 03:36:29 PM
Let us mark the passing of 3 innocent people for the Sanctification of the Holy Name of God.

Context please. Sigh. Googles. OK.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/14/us-usa-kansas-shooting-idUSBREA3C0MX20140414

Although 2 were not Jews, the coward who shot them outside a Jewish community center didn't know that.

True. But they're still not Jews. Knowing or not knowing something does not change the state of the thing known.

As for the shooting @ the assisted living facility, her identity is unknown @ present. But she too died as a Jew, whether she was one or not.

No she didn't.

Basically the guy was a dick. I'm sure he'll get the full wrath of the law (assuming the people shot were white). But that doesn't mean you get to auto convert the deceased to your favourite deity of choice. That seems crass and disrespectful to me.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 15, 2014, 03:07:27 AM
No one's trying to auto-convert anyone. It turns out the 3rd person was Catholic. But all 3 were perceived to be Jews. That is why they were killed. They should be honoured accordingly in their final rest. I hope @ their funerals, someone from the Jewish community makes it a point of being present. Their sacrifice should not go unnoticed.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on April 15, 2014, 05:47:47 PM
No one's trying to auto-convert anyone. It turns out the 3rd person was Catholic. But all 3 were perceived to be Jews. That is why they were killed. They should be honoured accordingly in their final rest.

No they shouldn't.

I hope @ their funerals, someone from the Jewish community makes it a point of being present. Their sacrifice should not go unnoticed.

They didn't make any sacrifice. I get sick of this word "sacrifice" that gets thrown around. They were shot. A retard had a gun and they were shot. They didn't choose to get shot. It was a thing that happened to them. They were shot. The world is not a better place thanks to them being shot.

If a Jewish person attends the funeral it should be at the behest of the family, not because he wants to "make a point". Would you expect a Walmart manager to attend the funeral of a person shot outside a Walmart?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on April 16, 2014, 06:05:58 AM
jroa told me all jews listen to Twisted Sister. Is this true?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 16, 2014, 07:43:42 AM
No it isn't. I've never heard their music.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 25, 2014, 08:30:39 AM
Yaakov, are the Jews literally Satan? Brother Nathanael seems to think so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAXiqIOTl6Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fuIXc74Zn0
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 25, 2014, 09:06:39 AM
I like his beard
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 10:23:51 AM
Well, one, Israel has no territorial designs beyond what it currently controls (in terms of her Government). Even those of us who do would limit greater Israel to Israel Proper, The Gaza Strip, The Golan Heights, and the West Bank. Saying anything about wanting everything from Morocco to Israel just makes him look like a schmuck.

Given that "the Synagogue" has never been a threat in Russia, the statement re: Putin is just stupid. In fact, in the latest mess in Ukraine, the Right Wing Government in Kiev has been heavily Neo-Nazi influenced, to point that the Chief Rabbi of the city has ordered the Jewish community there to flee the city, and preferably the country. Many of them have actually gone to Putin's Russia to seek support.

Our friend Nathanael is clearly an idiot. He knows very little about Judaism. In fact, he knows so little about it that I wonder if his claim to having been a Jew isn't invented bullshit. If its actually true, then he must have been in one of those shuls where worship has taken a back seat to social justice. That would be a Reform Temple for one. For two, there are very few that have fallen into that trap, probably just the same percentage of churches that have.

He does have a neat beard. Rather like my own.



Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 25, 2014, 10:58:52 AM
post pics of your beard
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 11:13:05 AM
I mean, God, yes, there has always been a streak of anti-Semitism in Russia. That can't be denied. The Czars followed anti-Semitic policies (most of them) as did the Soviet Government, but Putin never has. I've never heard a Jew, Russian or otherwise, complain about Putin in particular. A lot of Russian Jews would like to leave Russia, but that is not because they hate Putin per se. That is because a lot of people generally would like to leave Russia, because her economy is a mess, opportunities there are limited, and one can do better elsewhere. It has nothing to do with Putin currying favour with Russian Orthodoxy. That is to be expected. He's a Russian. What would you expect him to do, curry favour with Confucianism? I mean, really! People can be stupid!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 25, 2014, 11:21:12 AM
Is it true that Jews are greedy money-grubbers?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: The Terror on August 25, 2014, 12:39:32 PM
Why did you study undercover at a Mosque for 2 years?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 25, 2014, 01:21:22 PM
Know thy enemy?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 25, 2014, 07:56:01 PM
Why did you study undercover at a Mosque for 2 years?

Adding on, if you went to Mosque, did the prayers, and followed the rituals doesn't that mean you're going to Hell for having another god before your Jewish god?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on August 25, 2014, 08:04:21 PM
Yahweh was a god damn war god.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on August 25, 2014, 08:27:09 PM
Why did you study undercover at a Mosque for 2 years?

Adding on, if you went to Mosque, did the prayers, and followed the rituals doesn't that mean you're going to Hell for having another god before your Jewish god?
Since Jews and Muslims both worship the God of Abraham, I doubt it.  If he's going to Hell, it's probably for being a jerk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Abraham
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 25, 2014, 09:05:17 PM
And I thought Jews don't believe in Hell.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 09:05:35 PM
Most of us don't believe in hell, so the question is moot. & knowing my enemy was the point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 25, 2014, 10:10:44 PM
Most of us don't believe in hell, so the question is moot. & knowing my enemy was the point.
So they were your enemy BEFORE you learned about them.

How interesting...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 10:41:05 PM
I knew about them already. I just confirmed my views. Nothing to see here, carry on...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 25, 2014, 11:13:30 PM
So they were your enemy BEFORE you learned about them.
Just like America and Iraq (◕‿◕✿)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Снупс on August 26, 2014, 12:34:27 AM
What do you think of this piece of wonder?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RihOOLx919s
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 26, 2014, 12:51:20 AM
Only Weird Al can do that! That was fucking hilarious! I haven't laughed that hard in weeks!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 26, 2014, 01:30:03 AM
Most of us don't believe in hell, so the question is moot.

I can comprehend the idea of hell, therefore it exists.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on August 26, 2014, 08:04:28 AM
Did the Hall of cost really happen?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 26, 2014, 11:06:47 AM
Is it true that Jews are greedy money-grubbers?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 27, 2014, 10:00:39 AM
Why does this:

Quote
The fact is, persons related to modern Jews by ethnic and religious ties (commonly called Hebrews and Israelites) have resided in that territory of the Levant for 4500 years, at various times ruling over it as an independent state.

Give Jews the right to their own country?  And by whose authority? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 11:21:18 AM
Well, very simply, because permanent residence in a place, particularly with the control of a nation in that territory through history, is widely deemed by international legal theorists to give one claims on said land. And the Jewish claim on that land is definitely superior to the Arab claim to it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 11:26:34 AM
Well, very simply, because permanent residence in a place, particularly with the control of a nation in that territory through history, is widely deemed by international legal theorists to give one claims on said land. And the Jewish claim on that land is definitely superior to the Arab claim to it.
Because God said so?

I think if you look at the biological traits of both parties, you'd be hard pushed to make a case for Jews being from that area, when all of their neighbours have distinctly different physical characteristics.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 11:31:59 AM
You evidently don't study much, or even get out much. Jews that ARE from that area share DNA with Jews from other parts of the world. It has been proven that although Jews are a mixed bag, they all share some ancestry from the Levant. You obviously have your head in your ass. And Levites, do with themselves, and Cohanim do with themselves. You really need to get out more. Perhaps a visit to your proctologist is in order.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 27, 2014, 11:49:44 AM
Is it true that Jews are greedy money-grubbers?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 27, 2014, 05:09:21 PM
Most of us don't believe in hell, so the question is moot.
Wasn't Sheol basically hell during the Second Temple period? What happened to that?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on August 27, 2014, 05:15:28 PM
Did the Hall of cost really happen?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 05:22:29 PM
Well, some of us do believe in Sheol, but that is not Hell as Muslims and Christians understand the term. I personally believe in a Sheol, if you will.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 27, 2014, 05:29:51 PM
Is it true that Jews are greedy money-grubbers?
Still waiting for an answer, Yaakov.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 06:28:47 PM
Its a stupid question.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on August 27, 2014, 07:35:00 PM
Its a stupid question.
Irrelevant.  You are the one who invited everyone to "Ask a Jew anything."  So, I guess that you're obligated to either answer the question yourself or pass it off to another Jew to answer.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 07:42:07 PM
Neither I nor any other Jew is obligated to answer a retarded question. Grow up, put on your fucking big girl panties or big boy shorts, and act like an adult.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 27, 2014, 07:43:03 PM
You made the title ask a Jew anything. Stop trying to jew your way out of answering questions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 07:43:31 PM
Ooh, anti-semitism at its best.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 27, 2014, 07:59:40 PM
Basic externalization of negative factors. Instead of admitting you're a terrible person, you'd rather think people that hate you specifically instead hate Jews in general.

also:

Is it true that Jews are greedy money-grubbers?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on August 27, 2014, 08:01:29 PM
I hate when people cry anti-semitism when it isn't. Israel isn't all Jews (regardless of your opinion on it) and disliking a single Jew (without using all-jew insults) isn't anti-semitism.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: The Terror on August 27, 2014, 08:13:47 PM
Is racism wrong?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on August 27, 2014, 10:02:31 PM
Neither I nor any other Jew is obligated to answer a retarded question. Grow up, put on your fucking big girl panties or big boy shorts, and act like an adult.
Moving the goal posts, are we?  Maybe you should have said "Ask a Jew anything but a retarded question", but you didn't, so you're the one who needs to suck it up and remember where you are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 27, 2014, 10:07:30 PM
Well, some of us do believe in Sheol, but that is not Hell as Muslims and Christians understand the term. I personally believe in a Sheol, if you will.
My (very limited) understanding is that the original understanding of Sheol was the abode of the dead to which all people eventually go, regardless of how good or evil they were; but it seems like later on (the Second Temple period) this interpretation was altered to suggest that Sheol is divided into compartments for the good and evil. Is this inaccurate?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 10:52:23 PM
PIZA, as far as I am aware, that is inaccurate. But the problem is the following. Judeo-Christian understandings of the afterlife were, as you are no doubt aware, heavily influenced by two things: Zoroastrianism from Persia, and Grecian philosophy. In fact, Judaism developed ideas of Hades, which as you no doubt also know was the Greek abode of the dead, also where people were neither happy nor unhappy.

Judaisam and Christianity were both influenced by the Greeks, but Christians followed that up with HEAVY Roman thinking, especially in the West. We Jews got a lot less of that. To this day, most Jews do not acknowledge a hell-like place or region.

But that is not universal. Little in Judaism is. Some Jews do believe in Hell, albeit a minority. I would say the majority of us do believe in an Afterlife, but I have known some who don't. And even those of us who do don't worry about it all that much. Where we end up is rather irrelevant in the end. The fundamental fact is that, with or without an Afterlife, the Law of Moses must still be followed.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 28, 2014, 01:19:07 AM
If I wrote a book, titled it "Judaism is bad, mmkay? By: God" would you be forced to follow its every whim?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 28, 2014, 01:54:54 AM
Its a stupid question.
Why are you afraid of answering the question though? A simple yes or no would do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 02:39:43 AM
IRUSH, I would be forced to conclude that you are an idiot, not that I haven't already, but... Beardo, ok, I'll deal with the question, stupid though it may be. Do Jews have that reputation? Yes, they do. Is there a cause? Yes. In an age where Jews could be and often were forced to leave countries they had lived in for centuries (England, 1290, Spain, 1492, Portugal, 1493, various parts of Russia on a regular basis throughout the years on up into the early 20th century, the same with parts of Poland and Lithuania, etc), they very quickly learned to keep as much of their monetary wealth in liquid assets as possible. What this fundamentally meant was keeping it in gold and other precious metal, jewels, and paper money and coin.

What it comes down to, is you can't carry land! Anyone stupid enough to keep land was going to lose it when they next were forced to move. If you kept your shit in portable wealth, you could move from say, Russia to America, and still land on your feet when you got here.

I don't know why this question isn't obvious. I mean, seriously, how hard can this be to figure out? But, any way, that's the best answer I can give. It has nothing to do with Jews wanting more money than the next guy. It has to do with our tendency of being told to leave a place with only what we can carry. So, we learned to carry our wealth, if any. We also got damn good and helping out our own. If one Jew is in need, other Jews will usually help him. That's just the way it is. We work that way.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on August 28, 2014, 02:42:14 AM
Is there anybody here, apart from you, who isn't an idiot?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 02:47:27 AM
Well, Lord Wilimore is not, and there are several more who are not. But there are several who are. I simply see myself as filling a social need by pointing out who the idiots are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on August 28, 2014, 02:49:36 AM
We are all truly indebted to you for this valuable service. In fact, you probably already know exactly how much we owe you, since you're a Jew lmao
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 02:56:14 AM
Ah, yes, let me see, that will cost you $22.34. Joking aside though, I think my answer to that question was sufficient. It is not a topic I like to discuss for obvious reasons. But, alright. There you are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 03:16:26 AM
Only "Palestinians" could agree to the same exact cease-fire that they had refused weeks ago, after watching 2,100 of their people die, and call it a victory. These people are truly, without a doubt, at least in leadership, the dumbest, sorriest ass fuckers on earth.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on August 28, 2014, 04:18:45 AM
Are the Jews a race of people or followers of a religion? I've seen it go both ways. Furthermore, if I convert to Judaism do I become a Jew? Or am I a white man practicing Judaism?

Also, on a more personal note, how is your marriage? Are there any things you can't do in bed because you're a Jew or is it pretty much free reign? Who usually wears the pants in a Jew relationship? Is it God?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: The Terror on August 28, 2014, 09:36:03 AM
Can you make a golem?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 01:23:51 PM
Judaism is an ethnoreligious group. A person converting to Judaism is joining the ethnoreligious group. So a Caucasian man, or a Black man, or an Australian Aboriginal man (not that I've ever known any) who became a Jew would be classified a Jew in the full sense of the word.

Some things shouldn't be done in bed like having sex during your wife's monthly flow, or anal sex (forgive me for putting it so bluntly). I don't know of anything else that is directly forbidden in the sexual realm. Traditionally, the man was the "biblical head of his household" in an Orthodox Jewish home, and in such homes, that is often still the case. But in more modern environments, that is oft-times no longer the case, and the couple is more egalitarian. In my home, we are more egalitarian.

Of course, even in the more traditional home, God is considered ultimately to be the head of household. Its kind of odd, because on one hand, traditional Jews are taught that women are closer to God in some ways. They don't have to pray as much, and synagogue attendance for them is not required the way it is for men. At the same time, because they don't do those things, they are generally not as learned.

Part of the problem lies in their different responsibilities. As keepers of the home they don't have time to read the holy books the way men do. All we have to do is work. Our job is actually much easier than theirs. Lets just say its complicated.

Now, the last question about making golems is truly stupid.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 28, 2014, 01:49:10 PM
What do you have against stupid questions?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: The Terror on August 28, 2014, 02:54:36 PM


Now, the last question about making golems is truly stupid.

They had a golem on the X Files.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on August 28, 2014, 04:05:47 PM
Now, the last question about making golems is truly stupid.
So you're saying that Judah Loew ben Bezalel didn't create a golem to defend the Prague ghetto? ???
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 04:11:21 PM
Was this in the X Files?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on August 28, 2014, 04:51:11 PM
Read further for clarification. I'm not suggesting we DELIBERATELY bomb civilians. I am suggesting we take away ISIL's ability to make war. If that means knowing that some civilians are going to turn into dogmeat, so be it.

Why do you believe that we shouldn't deliberately bomb Arab civilians?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 28, 2014, 06:53:20 PM
IRUSH, I would be forced to conclude that you are an idiot, not that I haven't already,

If you think that it is a dumb idea, why are you already doing it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 30, 2014, 11:27:22 AM
I have a question about something you said.

You spoke of how Jews bought land from absentee Arab landlords and implied that everyone was OK with the sales.
If Muslims want all Jews dead, why did those Arabs (who were likely Muslim) not only approve the sale but not slaughter the infadels immediately?  Aren't they commanded by God to murder?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 30, 2014, 11:44:21 AM
Most of them were not Arabs, but Turkish. They were USUALLY part of the Turkish administration or upper crust of society who could have given a shite about who owned what where in "Palestine", whether they were Jews or Felahin. The Turkish may be Muslim, but they are first, Turkish. That has ALWAYS made them a little strange. As non-Arabs, they have some different motives than the Arabs do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 30, 2014, 12:51:23 PM
Most of them were not Arabs, but Turkish. They were USUALLY part of the Turkish administration or upper crust of society who could have given a shite about who owned what where in "Palestine", whether they were Jews or Felahin. The Turkish may be Muslim, but they are first, Turkish. That has ALWAYS made them a little strange. As non-Arabs, they have some different motives than the Arabs do.
And what about the Muslims nearby?  Why did they not slaughter the Jews?

Also, did you just claim the existence of a moderate Muslim?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: The Terror on August 30, 2014, 03:00:43 PM
Was this in the X Files?

No, the Prague story is on Wikipedia.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 31, 2014, 01:58:15 AM
LORD DAVE, Ever heard of the Hebron Massacre of I think 1929? And Turks are confusing. I don't know what they are, but given Erdogan's antics, I don't know how much I trust their so-called "moderation".

As far as Golems go, that is entirely new one me. I admit! It must Kabbalistic stuff. I'll look into it and get back to you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on August 31, 2014, 02:14:50 AM
Where can I get a good bacon cheeseburger?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 31, 2014, 02:22:00 AM
The Bible forbids that you wear clothing made of multiple materials. Do you attempt to follow this? If so, how clearly do you define multiple materials?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 31, 2014, 04:40:04 AM
At this point, I do not attempt to follow this. My level of observance is my own. At some point, I may attempt to follow it. But, for the most part, I usually wear cotton pants and cotton shirts. I don't wear wool except rarely in winter, as its too damned hot, even that time of year. A Jew's observance is always his own. No other Jew would ever ask him about it, except maybe his own Rabbi. I am not offended by the question, but it would not be asked within the community.

Multiple materials are defined as exactly that: different cloths. Leather is not a cloth, so someone can wear cotton and leather shoes, for example, but not cotton pants and a polyester shirt. The prohibition refers to CLOTHING, not protective gear for the feet (ie, shoes), or things like that. Mind you, this is, of course, all interpreted. I suppose there might be some who have disagreements with the interpretations.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 31, 2014, 04:52:06 AM
Is the rule taboo to talk about? The Bible does put forth a lot of rules to live by and some are strangely specific. Is it ever considered that some of the rules may be worded incorrectly, or the meaning of certain words has evolved over the years and twisted the original meaning? For example, you make a specific distinction between clothing and shoes. What if that is not the case?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on August 31, 2014, 04:52:25 AM
Why would "materials" only refer to "cloths"? Why are shoes not clothing? Why don't you take this rule seriously?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 31, 2014, 04:30:56 PM
I shall try to answer the questions, and then must go offline for a few days, as I am violently sick with God only knows what. The rule is not taboo to talk about. It is not even taboo to ask another Jew about his level of observance, although it is only rarely done. What IS taboo is to make value judgements ABOUT another Jew's level of observance. This is considered to be extremely rude, and will be quickly met with a "Go fuck yourself" response. Its like going into someone's house as their guest and criticising the decor.

It is, of course, perfectly legitimate to ask, if one is a guest in another Jew's home, what level of kosher they keep, so you know whether you are able to partake of the food. But, usually, asking isn't necessary. If you are an Orthodox Jew and you are in a Reform Jew's home, you can probably be pretty sure that he doesn't keep strict kosher to the degree that you do.

In terms of what are classified as clothes and what are not, I suppose that definition COULD have changed over the years. In fact, to be honest, it probably has. Could that have caused "issues"? Perhaps so. I just go with the most common interpretation, and leave it at that.

For me its not that I don't take the rule seriously. I fact I do. Its that I am trying to follow the other 612 (quite literally; there are 613 Commandments of the Law), and something has to give!

Seriously, it is hard for a Jew, almost impossible, to follow all the commandments (of which for men currently performable today in the absence of a Temple there are about 230, and for a female about 270 [the laws on female cleanliness provide a few more for her]). So, we do the best we can. We are not perfect. But every day we strive for greater observance, and to be better Jews.

I appreciate the questions, sincerely. But I have to ask for a pause for a few days, as I am very sick with some kind of bronchial infection that is just making me want to lie abed and get well. I shall come back when I feel better. Thanks.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 31, 2014, 04:45:00 PM
LORD DAVE, Ever heard of the Hebron Massacre of I think 1929? And Turks are confusing. I don't know what they are, but given Erdogan's antics, I don't know how much I trust their so-called "moderation".
You mean the massacre spread by misinformation about Jews taking control of Muslim areas? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on August 31, 2014, 06:01:25 PM
Well, very simply, because permanent residence in a place, particularly with the control of a nation in that territory through history, is widely deemed by international legal theorists to give one claims on said land. And the Jewish claim on that land is definitely superior to the Arab claim to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pKMV6e5kEo
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on August 31, 2014, 06:20:28 PM
My level of observance is my own. ... A Jew's observance is always his own.

First: How can you claim any moral authority if each person gets to follow the religion however they like? Eg I'm a Christian but I still enjoy murdering.

Second: This is bullshit and you're living in a make believe world. The more religious the community the more that community, and not just its leaders, will judge its members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I00Em_R2uU

NB it's pretty hard to google anything negative about judaism without links being returned that baww about WWII. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 12:06:53 PM
FAPP, humourous, but rather inaccurate as these things go. There haven't been any nuclear bombs going off (yet). As far as moral authority, perhaps I should have specified that outside the ultra-Orthodox community things tend to be as I have described them. And further, just because a Jew's observance is his own doesn't mean that we all don't try for greater observance and obedience. Most of us, except the very lax Reform types, do.

The only thing I meant by "a Jew's observance is his own" is that another Jew does not typically judge a person's observance, unless he is that person's Rabbi or other spiritual leader (Cantor, or rarely, some other office). This is NOT to say that a Jew can get away with what he wants and still call himself a good Jew. That would be foolish, as you correctly note.

I'll sign off again for a day or too, as I've exhausted what strength I had to type this much.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 02:08:30 PM
I wish to clarify, for the record, AGAIN,  what I said, so the willfully stupid can't interpret it the wrong way. EVERY  religious Jew that I have ever met has ALWAYS been trying for greater observance of the commandments. The moral ones come first. Not murdering, not taking shit that isn't yours, not screwing your neighbour's wife, these are obviously big ones. Ritual commandments come later, after you have trained yourself in the "don't fuck over your buddy" rules. This is where you get to not eating pigs, and other certain things, and wearing certain clothes with other clothes, and so-forth.

Even making the statement that a Jew can get away with murder but claim to be a good Jew is just stupid. And before we get started on Israel, please note that that subject has been covered to death, and Hamas is claiming a victory. So let them have their so-called "victory". I expect, of course, in about 3 more years we'll all be back at this point, just as we have twice before (not counting this time for a total of three times). But, hey, let them have their "victory".

I have to run. Sick though I am, I have things to do with my equally sick wife, like getting groceries for the week.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 02:38:35 PM
Incidentally, I know this is a complete non sequitur, but whatever happened to Excelsior John?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 01, 2014, 02:49:03 PM
Well, very simply, because permanent residence in a place, particularly with the control of a nation in that territory through history, is widely deemed by international legal theorists to give one claims on said land. And the Jewish claim on that land is definitely superior to the Arab claim to it.

God told me in a dream that he was giving me your car. I expect the keys in the mail by next week.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 01, 2014, 02:53:40 PM
Even making the statement that a Jew can get away with murder but claim to be a good Jew is just stupid.

No it is not stupid, it is quite germane actually. On the one hand, the moral commandments are the most important to master first but on the other hand when you break Israeli's break it by killing school children it is ok. It is an insidious double standard and you ought to feel like a fool for subscribing to a system of belief that is so sociopathic.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 01, 2014, 02:54:38 PM
Well, very simply, because permanent residence in a place, particularly with the control of a nation in that territory through history, is widely deemed by international legal theorists to give one claims on said land. And the Jewish claim on that land is definitely superior to the Arab claim to it.

Isn't possession 9/10ths of the law? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 02:58:40 PM
If the "Palestinians" do not want their people to end up in body bags, then they need to stop throwing rockets at Israel. Simple solution to the problem."When it is quiet in Israel, it will be quiet in Gaza." And no, idiotic sayings with no basis in legal fact won't get you very far in real life.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 01, 2014, 03:15:11 PM
If the "Palestinians" do not want their people to end up in body bags, then they need to stop throwing rockets at Israel. Simple solution to the problem."When it is quiet in Israel, it will be quiet in Gaza." And no, idiotic sayings with no basis in legal fact won't get you very far in real life.

If the "Israelis" do not want their people to end up in body bags, then they need to stop slaughtering children. Simple solution to the problem. "When it is quiet in Gaza, it will be quiet in Israel."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 01, 2014, 03:20:25 PM
If the "Palestinians" do not want their people to end up in body bags, then they need to stop throwing rockets at Israel. Simple solution to the problem."When it is quiet in Israel, it will be quiet in Gaza." And no, idiotic sayings with no basis in legal fact won't get you very far in real life.

What does your statement have to do with being a good Jew other than reinforcing the wrathful zeal that Israeli's sometimes apply to being immoral?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 03:22:51 PM
The difference is, Israel doesn't attack civilians with intent. They attack military targets that Hamas sets around civilians. Then those civilians die. Then Hamas complains. Waah fucking waah. Whatever. Last I checked, Israel did not attack Gaza until Gaza started throwing rockets. So, like I said, waah fucking waah.

It doesn't, RAMA SET, but I knew that someone would bring up the topic, so I thought that cutting them off at the pass might be a good idea.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 01, 2014, 03:31:15 PM
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/avedah2.html (http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/avedah2.html)

Quote
Jewish law recognizes that property may become ownerless by one of two means: (1) abandonment, which is an express renunciation by the former owner of his ownership; or (2) express or implied "forsaking hope" of reclaiming an object which one has legal title, but not possession by the owner of that item. Abandonment is effective only for property in one's own possession at the time of abandonment. By contrast, forsaking hope is applicable to both lost and stolen property; it is a relinquishment of the right to have the property returned. It results from external, involuntary circumstances which have placed the property beyond the possession of the owner, and the owner's realization that he is unlikely to ever recover his property. These juridical concepts in Jewish law find nearly perfect analogy in the common law doctrines of relinquishment and abandonment.  For example, after abandonment in Jewish law and abandonment in common law, the finder of lost property can properly exercise dominion over the object, thereby vesting title and absolute ownership in himself.

Based on this and the history of the area being taken and conquored by various empires over the years Jews can easily be seen as having implied "forsaking hope" and the only right they have to the land is what was granted to them by the UN.  And that's basically a gift that the people who lived there (the rightful owners) rejected.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 01, 2014, 04:12:54 PM
The difference is, Israel doesn't attack civilians with intent. They attack military targets that Hamas sets around civilians. Then those civilians die. Then Hamas complains. Waah fucking waah. Whatever.

Sounds like you need to work on being a good Jew.

Quote
Last I checked, Israel did not attack Gaza until Gaza started throwing rockets. So, like I said, waah fucking waah.

Except when it is Jewish settlers invading lands they are forbidden by treaty to settle mirite?

Quote
It doesn't, RAMA SET, but I knew that someone would bring up the topic, so I thought that cutting them off at the pass might be a good idea.

You did a terrible job of cutting off any lines of inquiry. In fact all you did was bring it to the fore. Well played Trollstein.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 07:19:25 PM
QUOTE: "Based on this and the history of the area being taken and conquored by various empires over the years Jews can easily be seen as having implied "forsaking hope" and the only right they have to the land is what was granted to them by the UN.  And that's basically a gift that the people who lived there (the rightful owners) rejected."

Except that no Jew at any time ever relinquished hope of a return to Jerusalem and the Holy Land. In fact, it has been said in Passover Seders across the world EXCEPT in Eretz Israel, "Next year in Jerusalem." All Jews knew that it would be ours again eventually. So the principle of abandoning hope does not apply.

Israel has no settlers in Gaza, and has not had any since 2005. There is not a single Jew in the territory.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 01, 2014, 07:20:44 PM
I thought you were too sick to post.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 07:29:30 PM
I'm back on my feet again, at least temporarily. And someone answer my question. What happened to my good pal EJ?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 01, 2014, 08:17:53 PM
Sorry if this has been asked.

Are you a Jew convert or were you "born" a Jew?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 09:36:32 PM
I was born in the Covenant.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 02, 2014, 01:04:13 AM
QUOTE: "Based on this and the history of the area being taken and conquored by various empires over the years Jews can easily be seen as having implied "forsaking hope" and the only right they have to the land is what was granted to them by the UN.  And that's basically a gift that the people who lived there (the rightful owners) rejected."

Except that no Jew at any time ever relinquished hope of a return to Jerusalem and the Holy Land. In fact, it has been said in Passover Seders across the world EXCEPT in Eretz Israel, "Next year in Jerusalem." All Jews knew that it would be ours again eventually. So the principle of abandoning hope does not apply.

Israel has no settlers in Gaza, and has not had any since 2005. There is not a single Jew in the territory.
Couple of things.

1. Jerusalem is not Israel. 
2. This is said even by modern Jews IN Jeruselem.
3. This is not a statement of ownerhip.  Jews can celebrate passover in a place without owning it.

So the meaning is worthless yet its still uttered which indicates habit, not declaration.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 02:27:33 AM
To my knowledge, Jews in Jerusalem do NOT include those words in Passover Seders. Furthermore, in Orthodox & Conservative prayer books, daily prayers are rendered for the return of our People to Israel, as well as a prayer for the State of Israel. It seems pretty clear that Jews always claimed ownership of the Land.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 02, 2014, 02:54:06 AM
Israel has no settlers in Gaza, and has not had any since 2005. There is not a single Jew in the territory.

None in Gaza but plenty in East Jerusalem and West Bank which are almost unanimously condemned as illegal by all articles if international law and the international community; they are also in violation if the Geneva Convention.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 09:59:07 AM
And that is relevant how? The UN has long ago failed in its purpose, let them bleat about "international law" all they wish. The fact is, The Arabs lost both East Jerusalem AND the West Bank fair and square in a war that the Arabs started (the Six Day War, in which, yes, Israel attacked first, but then, what would you do if hostile armies were surrounding your borders with every clear intention of attacking you). This was confirmed by their loss in a war that they DEFINITELY started, namely, the Yom Kippur War. You don't get land back when you start wars and lose them.

Your reliance on laws that don't apply to circumstances won't get you very far in the modern age. I strongly recommend instead that you grow up, put on your big boy pants, act your age, and look at the world as it really is, rather than as you think it should be in your whiny, anti-Semitic (or if you prefer, I'll use the term "Judeo-phobic") little pea-brain.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 02, 2014, 10:32:40 AM
And that is relevant how? The UN has long ago failed in its purpose, let them bleat about "international law" all they wish
Let's hope most of your kin do not subscribe to these views. UN member states outnumber Israel quite significantly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 10:38:01 AM
Indeed, but the US, which has veto power, tends to feel the way I do. I mean, seriously, The US and Israel play the game in the UN, but that's about the extent of it. You know it and I know it. The fact is, the UN buildings in the US and in Switzerland should be bombed to holy hell, as should the international court at the Hague. The people in them should be given thirty minutes to exit first. And then if the rest of the world wants to be assholes to Israel, fine, let them. Then the USA and Israel can turn the Middle East into a parking lot and build a kosher Wal-Mart there. This should have been done along time ago. All of the Middle East except Israel should have been made a parking lot after the 241 Marines were killed in Lebanon. Very simple. Both Israel and the US have nukes. We wouldn't have to use them , though. Fire-bombing, and carpet bombing, should be enough.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 02, 2014, 10:53:05 AM
Holy shit, you don't just want Israel dead, you want the whole world dead.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 02, 2014, 11:16:13 AM
Do you like Pizza?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 11:18:33 AM
Provided its made with kosher ingredients, yes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 02, 2014, 11:31:15 AM
What's that?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 02, 2014, 12:03:18 PM
What's that?

A rabbi has to kiss a baby's penis before the food can be cooked.

Indeed, but the US, which has veto power, tends to feel the way I do. I mean, seriously, The US and Israel play the game in the UN, but that's about the extent of it. You know it and I know it. The fact is, the UN buildings in the US and in Switzerland should be bombed to holy hell, as should the international court at the Hague. The people in them should be given thirty minutes to exit first. And then if the rest of the world wants to be assholes to Israel, fine, let them. Then the USA and Israel can turn the Middle East into a parking lot and build a kosher Wal-Mart there. This should have been done along time ago. All of the Middle East except Israel should have been made a parking lot after the 241 Marines were killed in Lebanon. Very simple. Both Israel and the US have nukes. We wouldn't have to use them , though. Fire-bombing, and carpet bombing, should be enough.

I'm not sure you understand the more subtle points of diplomacy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 02, 2014, 02:08:49 PM
And that is relevant how? The UN has long ago failed in its purpose, let them bleat about "international law" all they wish. The fact is, The Arabs lost both East Jerusalem AND the West Bank fair and square in a war that the Arabs started (the Six Day War, in which, yes, Israel attacked first, but then, what would you do if hostile armies were surrounding your borders with every clear intention of attacking you). This was confirmed by their loss in a war that they DEFINITELY started, namely, the Yom Kippur War. You don't get land back when you start wars and lose them.

Your reliance on laws that don't apply to circumstances won't get you very far in the modern age. I strongly recommend instead that you grow up, put on your big boy pants, act your age, and look at the world as it really is, rather than as you think it should be in your whiny, anti-Semitic (or if you prefer, I'll use the term "Judeo-phobic") little pea-brain.

I am anti-semitic because I think a country should honor the treaties it signs? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 02, 2014, 04:43:29 PM
Israelis tend to throw out accusations of anti-Semitism like it's Christmas and we're all orphans.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 02, 2014, 04:45:04 PM
What's that?

A rabbi has to kiss a baby's penis before the food can be cooked.
A disturbing notion.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 02, 2014, 04:48:39 PM
What's that?

A rabbi has to kiss a baby's penis before the food can be cooked.
A disturbing notion.

Anti-semite
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 05:21:02 PM
I thought we weren't allowed to post in here? That was odd. My Nintendo browser indicated that this thread was being locked. Unless I accidentally clicked on the wrong one. And, to fill you in: the ancient practice of a rabbi not kissing a baby's penis after the bris but cleaning the blood with his mouth is based on the incorrect understanding the saliva was a sanitary thing that would help prevent infection in the baby's penis.

Far from being intended as anything perverted, it was intended to be a healthful thing. Now that modern science has proven that this is NOT the case, very few rabbis or mohels engage in the practice. Most prefer the medically approved method of wiping with alcohol or some other sanitary thing that kills germs. The few that do continue the practice are the few that simply refuse to budge regardless of the times, much like a Christian Fundamentalist, who might insist on the idea that humans co-existed with dinosaurs, despite evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 05:37:47 PM
And no, we don't raise the cry of anti-Semitism unless that's what it is. Criticism of Israel is one thing. But when you start demanding that Israel behave in a way that NO other nation would behave, THAT is anti-Semitism. Any nation on earth, when directly attacked with rockets, would respond by sending troops to stop those rockets. Any government that failed to do this would be very quickly removed from power by its own people, either democratically or by force, for failure to lead.

And, yes, yes, I know, I am going to hear about Occupation. Well, Israel left Gaza in 2005. Completely left it. And had to partially re-enter in terms of taking control of the borders, the skies, and the water in 2007 when a terrorist organisation was given control by the people who live there.

A good rule of thumb is the following: If you don't want your neighbours to become alarmed and take control of your shit, don't elect terrorists as your leaders. This applies whether you live in Gaza or in Mexico.

I mean, come on, people, think. How hard is it to come up with common sense rules regarding people that want to fuck up your day?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 02, 2014, 05:56:44 PM
And no, we don't raise the cry of anti-Semitism unless that's what it is. Criticism of Israel is one thing. But when you start demanding that Israel behave in a way that NO other nation would behave, THAT is anti-Semitism. Any nation on earth, when directly attacked with rockets, would respond by sending troops to stop those rockets. Any government that failed to do this would be very quickly removed from power by its own people, either democratically or by force, for failure to lead.

And, yes, yes, I know, I am going to hear about Occupation. Well, Israel left Gaza in 2005. Completely left it. And had to partially re-enter in terms of taking control of the borders, the skies, and the water in 2007 when a terrorist organisation was given control by the people who live there.

A good rule of thumb is the following: If you don't want your neighbours to become alarmed and take control of your shit, don't elect terrorists as your leaders. This applies whether you live in Gaza or in Mexico.

I mean, come on, people, think. How hard is it to come up with common sense rules regarding people that want to fuck up your day?



The please tell me how I was being Anti-Semitic.  I think any nation that sanctions their citizens to squat on land whose rights have been signed away by bi-lateral treaty is not behaving properly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 02, 2014, 06:42:19 PM
Israel is literally perfect and anyone who dislikes it simply does so because it has Jews in it. But don't say it's a Jewish state, or they'll counter with "we do have some arabs, so we're totally like, not a Jewish state."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 08:13:50 PM
Israel has always stated that land would possibly be used for the natural growth of settlements. Aside from that, treaties cease to be valid when one of the signatories starts launching rockets at the other. Then, all is fair in love and war.

Incidentally, I am not an Israeli, but an English Jew living in the American Midwest State of Iowa.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 02, 2014, 10:44:44 PM
I'm back on my feet again, at least temporarily.

What's this? A Jew back from the dead?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 03, 2014, 12:50:46 AM
To my knowledge, Jews in Jerusalem do NOT include those words in Passover Seders. Furthermore, in Orthodox & Conservative prayer books, daily prayers are rendered for the return of our People to Israel, as well as a prayer for the State of Israel. It seems pretty clear that Jews always claimed ownership of the Land.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/274826/jewish/Next-Year-in-Jerusalem.htm
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Passover/The_Seder/Conducting_a_Seder/After_the_Meal/Next_Year_in_Jerusalem.shtml
http://www.vox.com/cards/everything-need-to-know-passover-moses-seder/why-are-you-supposed-to-say-next-year-in-jerusalem

Those three links seem to contradict your knowledge.
It seems that they see Jerusalem as an Ideal, a wish, or with a rebuilt temple.

Quote
Furthermore, in Orthodox & Conservative prayer books, daily prayers are rendered for the return of our People to Israel, as well as a prayer for the State of Israel.
Can you give me the name of the prayer because I can't seem to find any that pray for the return of people to Israel.


I'd like to point out that the US has had a very real and threatening buildup of weapons at it's doorstep.
Cuban Missile Crisis.  Not that I expect you to understand.

I'm really really glad that JFK wasn't a Jew.  I'd have never been born.  Of course, Israel would have been destroyed in the process.  So maybe there would be peace by now?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 03:12:34 AM
JFK was prob. the single worst thing that ever happened to the US. Much as I don't recommend assassinating people in general, in his case (& his brother) it was a blessing. Look up the Artscroll Siddur & Siddur Sim Shalom for prayers re: the State of Israel & returning to our Land. I'm too sick to do it for you right now, as those books are in boxes yet to be unpacked.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 03, 2014, 10:33:13 AM
JFK was prob. the single worst thing that ever happened to the US. Much as I don't recommend assassinating people in general, in his case (& his brother) it was a blessing.
Citation needed.

Quote
Look up the Artscroll Siddur & Siddur Sim Shalom for prayers re: the State of Israel & returning to our Land. I'm too sick to do it for you right now, as those books are in boxes yet to be unpacked.
Both of these are modern prayer books.  The Siddur Sim Shalom even touts passages celebrating Israel's existance and has works about the holocaust.

I'll wait until you can give me an actual prayer name, not a book published in the last 20 years.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 11:21:06 AM
You really aren't that bright. Both books are modern, but especially in the case of the Artscroll, the prayers have gone mostly unchanged in about 500 years. Granted, the Prayer for the State of Israel is fairly new, no one disputes that. The Baum Prayer Book is actually the one I have. There isn't much difference between that and the Artscroll Siddur.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 03, 2014, 02:18:09 PM

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 02:30:52 PM
Even if that WERE accurate, which it is not, I am not an Israeli. By the way: Godwin's Law. You lose.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 03, 2014, 02:34:52 PM
Do I lose or does Godwin win? I'm going to go with the latter. Regardless, it is common to compare Israel to Nazi Germany due to the similarities.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 03:13:35 PM
Since there are no similarities, the comparison falls under Godwin's Law. Israel is NOT engaging in genocide. The "Palestinian" population has increased at least 4-fold since 1948, from 750,000 to 4,000,000 today. This number does not include Israeli Arabs.

If Israel wanted to commit genocide, it would be VERY easy to do. The so-called "Palestinians" are confined in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It would not be hard to carpet bomb both areas to smithereens within about a week, thus eliminating the residents.

Lets face it: Hitler killed 6 million Jews in 12 years, 2/3 of Europe's Jews. If Israel is trying to commit genocide, and can't even do as well as Hitler did, then they obviously suck at it, since they have had 47 years to try.

The so-called "Palestinian Territories" are the only occupied territory in the world where the occupied are allowed to bring suit against the occupier in the occupier's Supreme Court, where in fact, they often win. Try doing that in Tibet.

So, yes, you do lose based on Godwin's Law, and you end up looking like a schmuck.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 03, 2014, 03:27:45 PM
Good so then you admit that it is an occupied territory as opposed to Israel's domain.  We are getting somewhere.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 03:31:49 PM
I freely admit it is occupied territory. But it belongs to Israel. The fact is, all the "Palestinians" living there should be deported, with six months living wages, and eminent domain for any property they would lose, to the Arab country of there choice. Those who refuse to leave should be shot. The IDF HAS to occupy it since the wrong people are squatting there. Hence the need for military occupation. But yes, it is a military occupation. No one disputes that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 03, 2014, 06:50:43 PM
You really aren't that bright. Both books are modern, but especially in the case of the Artscroll, the prayers have gone mostly unchanged in about 500 years. Granted, the Prayer for the State of Israel is fairly new, no one disputes that. The Baum Prayer Book is actually the one I have. There isn't much difference between that and the Artscroll Siddur.
It was new and in crisp modern writing.  Or so the description said.
I can't read the books for their prayer content without purchasing said book.  So if you would be so kind as to ...

Wait.  500 years?  That's it?
What happened to the previous 1,200?  Or 3,500?  Wouldn't a prayer having faith in returning to Israel have to be almost 2,000 years old for Jews to not have lost hope?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 03, 2014, 07:41:24 PM
The fact is, all the "Palestinians" living there should be deported, with six months living wages, and eminent domain for any property they would lose, to the Arab country of there choice.
What if their Arab country of choice is Palestine?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 09:30:07 PM
LORD DAVE, as soon as I am feeling better, I shall access my books. The prayers of the Siddur assumed FINAL FORM around 500 years ago. Since then, the book hasn't altered. However, most of the prayers in it go back much further, 1000, 1500, even 2000 or more years.

Yes, I do see your problem. Knowing how expensive those books are, I wouldn't want to purchase them either unless I had some use for them beyond a discussion with someone online. I have the Baum Siddur that I got hold of here and there, the content of which is basically the same as the Artscroll. Only the Introduction and whatnot would be different. The footnoting might also be different.

I'll see what I can find in the next few days when I feel better. Not today though. For the moment, I shall withdraw my accusation of your not being that bright. (:
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 03, 2014, 10:51:26 PM
The fact is, all the "Palestinians" living there should be deported,

Why are you putting Palestinians in scare quotes?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 03, 2014, 10:52:38 PM
The fact is, all the "Palestinians" living there should be deported,

Why are you putting Palestinians in scare quotes?

Maybe because he sees them as Arabs that don't belong there and as such there isn't really a Palestinian? Only Arabs living in Israel under unique conditions?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 10:53:34 PM
Lemon, that is correct.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 03, 2014, 10:59:08 PM
OK imma put "Israelis" is scare quotes too.

Because they're only Jews living in Palestine under unique conditions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 03, 2014, 11:19:11 PM
Since The United States rightfully belongs to England, I'm going to start referring to its occupants as "American"s".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 12:46:27 AM
The word "Palestine" was invented by the Romans after they defeated the Jews and exiled most of them (not all) from the Land. The renamed the Land "Syria Palestina" to indicate that it was under the ultimate authority of the Syrian governorate.

If there has EVER, at any time, been a "State of Palestine", at any time in history, I will hand you a map. You will point to me where this internationally recognised state existed. And no, Philistia does not count, because the residents were not Arabs, as the current residents are.

You will tell me what kind of government ruled there. You will tell me the names of any leaders they had before Yassir Arafat. You will be able to inform me of the currency they used. You will tell me of their history, the wars they fought and won or lost, and the territory gained or lost as a result thereof.

Surely, these basic questions would not be hard to answer if there ever was an independent "Palestine" in history.

Oh, I'm sorry. You can't? Why not? Oh, because there never was such a state. Really. So if such a state never existed, then how does a nationality called "Palestinian" come to exist? Nationalities exist because nations exist that contain them. So, if "Palestine" was never a nation, then there were never "Palestinians", but only Arabs residing in a territory that the Romans once called "Syria Palestina".

So, now you look like a schmuck.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 04, 2014, 01:15:05 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine

It seems to exist, but only as a de jure state.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 02:33:43 AM
It exists only because some liberal western mind says it does. Like I said, name me one of its leaders before Arafat. Tell me what currency it used or uses? What form of government did it ever have in history? What wars has it ever won or lost? What other history has occurred that has affected this putative "State of Palestine"? Who, other than the UN, gave the "State of Palestine" any legitimacy at all? And before you say that the UN gave Israel legitimacy, to be honest, that is bullshit.

Israel established her territory, declared independence, and fought a war against five Arab armies to maintain that independence. All the UN did was acknowledge the already existing facts on the ground. Even if it hadn't, Israel would likely have told the UN to go fuck itself.

The UN is a waste of time and resources. It serves no purpose except to give tyrants a place to put themselves on display. The building in the US should be evacuated and imploded. The US should strike the buildings in Switzerland and the ICC in the Hague, after giving everybody a day's notice to exit the area. That accomplished, then the West should stop pussyfooting around with cowards who chop off heads of innocent journalists. In return for one journalist, we should go to Iraq, round up 100 ISIS sympathisers, and shoot them.

It IS that simple.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 04, 2014, 02:41:40 AM
You really need to work on your ability to say relevant things.

It exists only because some liberal western mind says it does.

Political borders can only be created by people. God doesn't give out land.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 03:02:00 AM
The UN is the only reason Israel actually exists today and you know it.  Had the UN not given the Jews Israel and they were to try to invade Palestine to form their nation, they would have been rightfully slaughtered for being aggressors trying to steal other people's rightfully owned land.  You even mentioned that the Jews were defeated and kicked out of Israel by the Romans, last time I checked that means they lost all previous claims.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 03:22:58 AM
Given that even though most Jews were exiled from "Syria Palestina", but NOT all, and that Jews never gave up claim to the Land, they never did lose previous claims. The UN only recognised the accomplished fact that Israel had already achieved by declaring independence and then fighting a war against five invading armies and winning it. So no, they DID fight that war to form their nation, and they were NOT slaughtered, rightfully or not. They actually won. You aren't that bright, are you?

If you don't believe in God, that is your issue. I choose to accept that God DOES indeed give out land. It sounds like the problem is yours, not mine.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 03:59:09 AM
The belief that God gave land to any group is what will continue the strife there. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 05:52:38 AM
Sounds like personal issues to me.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 04, 2014, 05:57:42 AM
Sorry Yaakov, but it appears your god just gave me your land. I'm giving you a fair warning to leave right now or I viciously murder you. This is okay and morally sound because I'm warning you first.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 06:15:30 AM
IRUSH, my recommendation is that you see a psychiatrist. So far as I know, the only People in history ever to be so honoured were the Jews. Granted, a case MIGHT be made for the Japanese with their native Shinto Faith. As a Jew, I know ONLY what God has taught me, and expects of me and my People. We know nothing about what he has or has not taught non-Jews, and what he does or does NOT expect from them, aside from following the Noahide Laws, which we know he expects of all humans.

And since the Revelation on Mt. Sinai was to 2 million people, and not just to Moses, I trust it a lot more than I do your purported nonsense. So, yes. Do see a psychiatrist. Soon.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 04, 2014, 06:17:11 AM
IRUSH, my recommendation is that you see a psychiatrist. So far as I know, the only People in history ever to be so honoured were the Jews. Granted, a case MIGHT be made for the Japanese with their native Shinto Faith. As a Jew, I know ONLY what God has taught me, and expects of me and my People. We know nothing about what he has or has not taught non-Jews, and what he does or does NOT expect from them, aside from following the Noahide Laws, which we know he expects of all humans.

And since the Revelation on Mt. Sinai was to 2 million people, and not just to Moses, I trust it a lot more than I do your purported nonsense. So, yes. Do see a psychiatrist. Soon.

Oh, I see. You, personally, pick and choose who God talks to. That sounds like a sin to me. Hold on, let me ask God, who is currently appearing to me in the form of a rainbow colored unicorn.


God says that is undoubtedly a sin.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 04, 2014, 06:20:25 AM


And since the Revelation on Mt. Sinai was to 2 million people, and not just to Moses, I trust it a lot more than I do your purported nonsense. So, yes. Do see a psychiatrist. Soon.

Damn. 2 million people? No possible way Judaism could be wrong now.


Why don't such miracles and revelations happen in modern times? Has Yahweh abandoned us?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 06:21:54 AM
That is not at all what I said, but you will be a schmuck and interpret it that way. God chooses who he speaks to. But until I start seeing real evidence, like Scriptures, and whole new philosophies and nations rising from your purported visions, I won't hold my breath. VAUXHALL, I'll get to your question tomorrow, since it is legitimate.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 04, 2014, 10:25:51 AM
LORD DAVE, as soon as I am feeling better, I shall access my books. The prayers of the Siddur assumed FINAL FORM around 500 years ago. Since then, the book hasn't altered. However, most of the prayers in it go back much further, 1000, 1500, even 2000 or more years.

Yes, I do see your problem. Knowing how expensive those books are, I wouldn't want to purchase them either unless I had some use for them beyond a discussion with someone online. I have the Baum Siddur that I got hold of here and there, the content of which is basically the same as the Artscroll. Only the Introduction and whatnot would be different. The footnoting might also be different.

I'll see what I can find in the next few days when I feel better. Not today though. For the moment, I shall withdraw my accusation of your not being that bright. (:
Wait.  How do you not know the prayer name?  Or even a quote?  Aren't you Jewish?  Do you not recite it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 11:15:49 AM
I'm Jewish, yes. But I've only been observant the last few years. And Hebrew is NOT my first language by any means. I can recite it fine in Shul. But I don't read the alphabet well, and prefer to use transliterated versions of the Siddur when I can get them. As for prayer titles, prayers usually get the titles of whatever their first word in Hebrew is. Because my Hebrew is questionable, I have to look that kind of thing up. I was able to find my Baum Prayer Books. I shall look up that information when my medication starts working, and I stop coughing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 04, 2014, 12:38:44 PM
Nothing like a fly by night Zionist.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 03:58:38 PM
It should be noted as per the rather comical video on page 10 that no one ever really claimed the land as their home except the Jews. The Romans regarded it as a backwater province of the Empire that they hated being sent to and considered it a punishment if they were. The Muslim empires, Arab and Turkish, felt likewise. The Crusaders regarded the land as holy because Jesus came from there, but no one in their right mind wanted to stay. They all wanted to conquer it, and then return to Europe and let some other poor bastard have the job of governing the place. Only the Jews have EVER wanted the land as uniquely their own, until VERY recently, when the Arabs living there suddenly, without notice or historical precedent, started calling themselves "Palestinians". This term did not even exist until after the nationality was made up for it. Previously, the Arabs had been Egyptians in the Gaza Strip and Jordanians in the West Bank. It was only when Israel conquered these territories in the Six Day War, and even later, when both Egypt and Jordan gave up claims to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, that the term "Palestinian" began to be bandied about. Yassir Arafat was born in Cairo, served in the Egyptian Armed Forces, and went to college in Cairo. That makes him, by pretty much every definition of the word, an Egyptian citizen. Inventing a new nationality, no matter how nice it sounds, simply doesn't work.

And let's be honest enough to admit it. Arabs and Jews don't fucking like each other. All this shit about sitting around a campfire holding hands and singing "Cumbaya" might work fine in fairy tales, but they don't work in the hard core reality of real life. Netanyahu said it correctly, whether you love him or hate him. "We (the Israelis) live in a tough neighbourhood." We can prattle on about whether Israel should or should not exist, and whether Arabs should or should not be in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and yada, yada, yada. But the FACTS, my friends, are as follows:

1. Israel DOES exist. There is nothing that is going to occur that will stop it from existing. (a), it has the support of the United States, which it will always have, because there are enough Jews here to influence the government through AIPAC and so-forth. (b), there are enough Christian Zionists who also, for their own weird reasons, support Israel and also influence the government. (c) Israel has what is pretty much the best trained functional military in the world. Anyone who fucks with it ends up being turned into dogmeat. (d) Israel's continued existence will be guaranteed by the more moderate regimes of the Middle East, such as Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, and even Saudi Arabia, because, as much as these countries despise Jews, they know that the so-called "Palestinians" under Hamas or even under the PA are a bunch of pond scum that can't govern themselves. They know that "Palestinians" are all, for the most part, wannabe terrorists in training to blow shit up. Anybody who dresses up their baby in suicide bomber gear is fucked up, and these nations know that.

2. There is no possibility of a "Palestinian" State alongside Israel. Egypt doesn't trust it to exist in the Gaza Strip, Jordan doesn't want it in the West Bank, and Israel doesn't want it anywhere. No other part of the world wants it either, for the above reasons.

I would continue, but I have to run. An important phone call just came in. Chat with you all later.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 04, 2014, 04:36:02 PM
I'm impressed by how much you just wrote, regardless of content.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 04:52:00 PM
Desire to reside in a location does not trump ownership.  No American wants to live in Louisiana, it's a backward shit hole, this doesn't mean we would be okay with the UN handing it back to the French.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 07:04:33 PM
Jews have always owned Eretz Israel. Throughout 4500 years of history, Jews have had the longest connection to the land than any other group in history. As indicated above, the Arabs, and later the Turks, treated it as a backwater. They are newcomers to the territory, displacing the native Jewish population. Only in the 20th century, AFTER the establishment of the State of Israel, did any Arab begin to think of himself as a "Palestinian". Until 1967, the West Bank was under Jordanian rule, and the Gaza Strip was controlled by Egypt. Neither nation had any real desire to control either area. Both considered the areas as backwaters, basically pits to which incompetents got sent to administrate. The people living there were treated the same as the land in which they lived.

The only reason that anybody gives a rat's ass about the "Palestinian" problem is the left over anti-Semitism of bygone days. For the most part, it is politically incorrect in the US to hate Jews (some Jew hatred is tolerated in Europe, but not too much; more in the Eastern part than in the West, but not huge amounts thereof, at least not at present). However, it is politically ok in both Europe and in the US to hate Israel.

Of course, the people who hate Israel claim not to hate Jews. They claim that their hatred is reserved only for "Zionism" or for "Israel" or for some PC term such as "apartheid" even though there is absolutely no similarity between the South African variety of racial separation and anything that occurs in Israel and the Occupied Territories. It should be noted that the UN, however useless it may be, even said that their earlier declaration that Zionism was racism was in fact not true. That statement was retracted in the early 1990's.

Even the claim that hating Israel's governmental decisions, while possibly valid in its own way (after all, no one has to agree with every decision a government makes), often turns into Jew hatred. The people who despise the Government of Israel end up demanding that said Government behave in ways that NO government on Earth would behave. Israel already treats the Arabs of the Occupied Territories far better than any occupying power ever has in history.

In what other part of the world, at any time in history, has an occupying power allowed the occupied population to bring suit against it, even against the military itself, in that power's own Supreme Court, which in fact, often renders decisions IN FAVOUR of the occupied? Try doing that in Tibet.

What occupying power unilaterally leaves a territory as Israel did in 2005, pulling ALL of its military, citizens, etc, leaving its entire civilian infrastructure in place for the native population to use as they saw fit? They left a fully functioning horticultural industry, which of course, Hamas destroyed in order to use the materials for weapons against Israel. THAT is why, two years later, Israel had to retake control of the borders, the water border, and the air of Gaza, NOT because they wanted to. Hamas was importing weapons for use against Israel.

What military power fights a war that actually warns civilians to get out of the way before dropping ordnance on buildings and the like, which Israel does by leaflets, phone calls, text messages, and roof knocking? The fact that civilians end up killed is because Hamas refuses to let them leave, and even uses them as shields, and often puts military material in civilian things such as schools and mosques?

What other Government, when rockets are raining down on their civilian population, would be told to NOT do anything to stop it? If Mexico were shooting rockets at San Diego and Los Angeles, and other cities in the Southwest USA, the USA WOULD respond by bombing the living shit out of them, and everyone knows it. But for some reason, Israel is expected to take it.

So, I ask you my friends, to think. Think long and hard. What is the new anti-Semitism? I put it to you: it is the hatred of Israel that is so talked about at our left wing universities. It is the new style mindset that sits in the minds of our liberal politicians both here Stateside and in Europe. It is obviously in the mind of the radical Nazi minded Right, but they have their own weird racial theories that every sane person knows are crazy.

No, I tell you my friends, it is the supposedly enlightened left that we must fear today. So what will you do? Continue to be blinded by the bullshit? You can do that. And you can stand before God on Judgement Day and be asked, where were you when the one State in the Middle East that is worth a shit got stomped on, and to face another Holocaust, and yes, they won, because they always have, Jews are like that, they always find a way to kick some ass, but how many had to die first? Or will you stand now and fight for that State and what is right and decent against all the dictators and kings and other assholes that dominate that region and the horrors they represent? The choice is yours. If you make the wrong one, your future may be what an ISIS defector just said today.

First, they will make a caliphate of the Arab world. Then, they will go after other countries. Make your choice. And make it now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 08:15:24 PM
The US wouldn't indiscriminately bomb civilians with military targets. You have to minimize civilian casualties in a conflict these days or else you are seen to be a vile country, see Israel. No one is arguing they shouldn't defend themselves, just that they shouldn't be looking civilians by the thousands.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 08:22:12 PM
Read Paragraph Seven (7).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 08:24:30 PM
It's irrelevant.  You don't kill the hostages to solve a hostage situation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 08:30:46 PM
If someone is using a rocket launcher to kill your people, and you have to stop that from happening, and you know there are people there, and you want them to leave, but they do not leave, then it is your right to remove the rocket launcher, even if you know that the people attached to it will die as a result. This is what happens in wars. At least, this is what happens in wars that are fought in any sane way. The USA and Britain did not apologise for bombing Berlin or Dresden. The USA did not apologise for bombing Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Shit happens, dude. That's why its not a good idea to fight a war when you know you can't win it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 04, 2014, 08:31:48 PM
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. If it was somewhere in that drivel up there then forgive me.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 08:44:42 PM
The US has repeatedly been criticised for the use of nuclear weapons.  Notice how those were the only two times a nation has actually used nuclear weapons.  Also, Israel has lost how many civilians in this current conflict, I'd have to double check but I think it's on the scale of 10s. The threat is there but Israel has a solid defense system to where they don't have to worry too much.  Meanwhile thousands of Palestinians have been murdered by Israeli rockets.  UN establishments have been targets of Israel.  The first time it happens you might be able to say oops, but the UN should have stepped on Israel the second time it happened.  They have zero concern for human life other than their own.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 08:48:56 PM
QUOTE: "Damn. 2 million people? No possible way Judaism could be wrong now.


Why don't such miracles and revelations happen in modern times? Has Yahweh abandoned us?"

I'm sorry! I forgot about that question. I shall try to answer it. Many people have asked themselves that. Why don't miracles of that nature occur today? Well, I can't say why they don't occur to non-Jews.

Here's the thing, Vauxhall. As a Jew, I know what God has commanded me, as a Jew, to do. I know what He has taught us, as our God, and we, as his People, to expect in our relationship with him. This not to say that I have direct telephone line to the Deity (boy, wouldn't that be nice). It is merely to say that the Jewish Bible contains within it all the revealed material that God has given to the People Israel. That material is what we NEED to know in order to please God, and to live up to our part of the Covenant. The Talmud and all that just explain the Bible. And God knows, the Talmud itself is 20 volumes long and takes up a HUGE amount of space on a bookshelf! And that is not the ONLY literature. There is so much that our Rabbis and other scholars have written trying to understand and probe and explain the Bible, and the Jewish Law, and Custom, and Jewish Life, and so-forth.

So why hasn't God caused miracles like that sort of thing to happen now? For us, the answer is simple: they are not necessary. As the Sages say: After Malachi, the Prophecy passed out of Israel. Now we live by what we have. We don't need more.

As for the non-Jews? I don't know. I don't know what God has taught them, or not taught them. I don't know what prophets or sages or wise ones he may have sent to them, although I expect that he did indeed send people. I am inclined to believe that men such as the Buddha, Mahavira, Gandhi, Confucius, and so-forth, were sent by God as Prophets to their own people, and that they taught them in ways that they could understand. But that is pure speculation on my part. I could be full of crap on that. I don't know.

I hope that answers your question. I apologise for not responding sooner.

Duck, as I said, when Israel suspects that Hamas is hiding something in a school, UN or otherwise (as they so often do, even in UN schools, as has been proven on more than one occasion), that renders it a valid military target. And since the UN has no right to even exist, the notion of them stomping on anybody is a bad joke.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 08:59:22 PM
The member nations of the UN would surely say it has a right to exist but whatever.  Would you be condemning hamas for the murder of civilians if an Israeli military target was hit along with an Israeli school killing 25 children?  Ignore any real life evidence of anything and deal with the hypothetical.  I'm sure you would so you should be equally condemning Israel's murder of thousands.  Regardless of evacuation notices and such, if intelligence says civilians are present, an alternate method needs to be employed of removing the threat.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 09:01:24 PM
The key difference being that Israel doesn't put military shit anywhere near civilian shit. See that difference?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 09:05:55 PM
You obviously didn't read my post or know what a hypothetical is.  Go back and read it again and give an honest answer.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 09:10:56 PM
I know what a hypothetical is. But such a hypothetical could never occur for a couple of reasons.

1. Jews are not stupid (for the most part).
2. Jews are ethical (for the most part).
3. Jews are strategically minded (for the most part).

In other words, a smart, ethical, strategically thinking Jew knows that it is very unwise to put civilians around military equipment. However, A Jew ALSO knows that if you DO put civilians around military equipment, and your enemy comes and bombs your shit, and kills your civilians that should not have been around your military equipment, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 04, 2014, 09:49:28 PM
In the US, when someone with rockets is firing on a position, the US government sends in elite soldiers to neutralize the threat.
In Israel, they just blow up the area around the rocket and hope it works.

Imagine if the US simply bombed abbottabad instead of just sending in Seal Team 6?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 04, 2014, 09:53:59 PM
The word "Palestine" was invented by the Romans after they defeated the Jews and exiled most of them (not all) from the Land.

The sense of entitlement is strong in this one.

Dude. Borders change. Please get over yourself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 04, 2014, 09:56:38 PM
There is a difference between a valid military target and carte Blanche to kill everyone inside said target. See Duck's comment about collateral damage if you are confused. The development of the smart bomb was, in part, to alleviate this concern.

As to your claim that Jew's have always owned Israel, that is false and your own history bears that out. The Jews came down as a bunch of murderers and left no one alive and/or unraped.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 10:01:07 PM
The problem with that is that Abbottabad was ONE target. Israel is facing hundreds. You can't send special forces in to take out hundreds of targets. The next comment about borders has already been dealt with and needs no response here.

Frankly, a legitimate military target renders anything in it a part of that target. Collateral damage is unfortunate, but such is life. See the bombing of Berlin or Dresden as an example. 

As for the manner in which the Hebrews ENTERED the Land, 4500 years ago, wars were fought pretty fucking brutally. Such is life. Get over it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 04, 2014, 10:06:26 PM
As for the manner in which the Hebrews ENTERED the Land, 4500 years ago, wars were fought pretty fucking brutally. Such is life. Get over it.

You seem to be arguing that might is right.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 10:07:42 PM
No, I am just acknowledging reality.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 04, 2014, 10:12:10 PM
Frankly, a legitimate military target renders anything in it a part of that target. Collateral damage is unfortunate, but such is life. See the bombing of Berlin or Dresden as an example. 

You mean the two events that are considered by many to be prime examples of overzealous and unnecessarily crude military action?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 04, 2014, 10:13:39 PM
ITT: A Jew claims that violent retaliations are justified when the target hates you.

Yaakov is literally Muslim.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 04, 2014, 10:18:26 PM
No, I am just acknowledging reality.

So acknowledge the reality that Jewish people aren't going to get their own country.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 04, 2014, 10:55:45 PM
If someone is using a rocket launcher to kill your people, and you have to stop that from happening, and you know there are people there, and you want them to leave, but they do not leave, then it is your right to remove the rocket launcher, even if you know that the people attached to it will die as a result. This is what happens in wars.
No.  This is why we have special forces (Mossad).

At least, this is what happens in wars that are fought in any sane way.
You seem to have a rather unusual definition of "sane".

The USA and Britain did not apologise for bombing Berlin or Dresden. The USA did not apologise for bombing Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
Different war, different times and different weapons.  Precision munitions did not exist during WWII.

Shit happens, dude. That's why its not a good idea to fight a war when you know you can't win it.
Apparently you don't realize that wars are not fought just on the battlefield any more.  These days wars are also fought in the media.  Dirty little secrets from both sides have a much easier time finding the light of day.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 04, 2014, 11:18:47 PM
No, I am just acknowledging reality.

So we should tell Jews to "just get over" the Hocaust then. Fair enough. I will give them your number if they have a problem with that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 04, 2014, 11:51:31 PM
In the US, when someone with rockets is firing on a position, the US government sends in elite soldiers to neutralize the threat.
In Israel, they just blow up the area around the rocket and hope it works.

Imagine if the US simply bombed abbottabad instead of just sending in Seal Team 6?

Well, but the American military has talent. The Israeli military just has anger issues. It's not a fair comparison.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 05, 2014, 01:18:52 AM
In the US, when someone with rockets is firing on a position, the US government sends in elite soldiers to neutralize the threat.
In Israel, they just blow up the area around the rocket and hope it works.

Imagine if the US simply bombed abbottabad instead of just sending in Seal Team 6?

Well, but the American military has talent. The Israeli military just has anger issues. It's not a fair comparison.
I guess.
I mean, Israel has some of the most advanced weapons, not the most advanced soldiers.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 05, 2014, 01:28:11 AM
In the US, when someone with rockets is firing on a position, the US government sends in elite soldiers to neutralize the threat.
In Israel, they just blow up the area around the rocket and hope it works.

Imagine if the US simply bombed abbottabad instead of just sending in Seal Team 6?

Well, but the American military has talent. The Israeli military just has anger issues. It's not a fair comparison.
I guess.
I mean, Israel has some of the most advanced weapons, not the most advanced soldiers.

And they get the weapons from us. They have nothing of their own to add to the equation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 01:52:24 AM
Actually, yes, I've thought that for now, Jews do need to get over the Holocaust. Its about damn time. I mean, yes, we need to remember it, acknowledge it, pray for the victims and so-forth, but put on our big-boy pants and quit making ourselves the "oh feel sorry for me" group.

As far as the Mossad goes, again, you can't send even them (and yes, they are acknowledged as about the best special forces/CIA/FBI like group in the world) to take out 50 to a hundred targets at once. I notice no one brought that into the equation. Given that Israel has won every single war or conflict it has ever fought except the one it was not allowed to fight (the Suez matter), saying they lack talent is simply stupid.

Many, but not all, of their weapons, come from the USA. They invented quite a few of their own, the Uzi being one example.

So, children, grow up. Please observe the note to all the children: the adults are talking! If you can't be one, then go away.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 05, 2014, 01:55:37 AM
And they get the weapons from us. They have nothing of their own to add to the equation.

They received  their nuclear arsenal from South Africa during its Apartheid days (Israel supported Apartheid a lot, not surprising). This is right around the same time that JFK vehemently opposed giving Israel nukes because he knew they aren't powerful enough to maintain them and the country is too radical. Didn't take too long for them to assassinate him once that political stance was taken.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 05, 2014, 01:58:18 AM
As far as the Mossad goes, again, you can't send even them (and yes, they are acknowledged as about the best special forces/CIA/FBI like group in the world) to take out 50 to a hundred targets at once.
No, but they can take out a few in such a way as to "teach the others a lesson".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 02:07:01 AM
Except NO ONE has ever even SUGGESTED that JFK was assassinated by Israel except for your paranoid dumb ass. I mean, I have said, either in this thread or another, that the death of JFK was probably the best thing that ever happened to this country, along with the death of his brother. I don't normally encourage the murder of political leaders, but in their cases, I don't think  there were any alternatives.

And Israel has proven that it handles its nuclear weapons (which it doesn't admit to having) very well, and it has never used them. Not that it really could. I mean, think about it. Using a nuclear weapon in the Middle East would result in Israel being subject to its own bomb's fallout. Its only purpose is to scare. It is either too early to use, or to late to be of any use, or impossible to use.

Re: the apartheid issue, again, there is no similarity between Arabs in Israel and the apartheid system of racial separation that occurred in S. Africa. Arabs of the Occupied Territories are NOT citizens of Israel, and therefore, do not have rights to live in Israel, or to work there, or to vote, or what-have-you. They have far more rights under military occupation than ANY military occupying power has EVER given the occupied in the history of the world. Just compare their situation with Tibet for an example. Please note that Arab citizens of Israel have full rights, and enjoy full status as citizens, with Arabic being an official language, with full rights to practice their faiths, excused from service in the military except by choice, and full voting rights, with representatives in the Knesset.

If killing 2100 people isn't enough to teach so-called "Palestinians" a lesson, what the Hell makes you think that taking out  5-10 rocket launchers will do it? Are you that abysmally stupid?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 05, 2014, 02:49:05 AM
If killing 2100 people isn't enough to teach so-called "Palestinians" a lesson, what the Hell makes you think that taking out  5-10 rocket launchers will do it? Are you that abysmally stupid?
No, but you apparently are.  If you can take out rocket launchers without killing 2100 innocent civilians teaches the lesson that you can destroy your targets and still be a member of the civilized world.  After all, only barbarians intentionally cause unnecessary pain and suffering to their enemies.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 04:19:36 AM
Why, in the name of all sane things, would you send special forces to take out rocket launchers, to risk their lives, when said launchers will only be rebuilt somewhere else within days? Far better to simply fight a real war and get it over with. Besides, Hamas seems to have claimed victory. How the Hell you claim victory after losing 2100 people, half of them militants, I don't begin to comprehend, but ok, fine.

And yes, I said half. The UN, which has no business even existing, says 30%, but then, we all know how trustworthy the great UN is. Such examples as Saudi Arabia, Syria, Cuba, and China have sat on the Human Rights Council. So, with those stellar nations advising all on how to behave ourselves regarding human rights issues, you'll pardon me if I consider the UN a bad fucking joke.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 05, 2014, 04:50:44 AM
Hamas isn't trying to eradicate Israel through conventional means anymore, they have targeted something far harder to repair.  Hamas has targeted Israel's reputation on the global stage and has succeeded in making them look like ruthless murders who show no concern for civilian lives.  So far they have done a great job of poking the nest to get them good and angry.  If Israel doesn't change, nations will start to turn on it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 05:16:30 AM
To which the proper response is to pound them into dogmeat. And then demonstrate the facts of the matter. The truth is the truth. If civilians die, it is the fault of Hamas. If other countries are too stupid to see that, that sounds like a personal problem. Nobody will turn on Israel.

There are several reasons WHY nobody will turn on Israel. They can be summed up as follows:

1. Israel is the heart of Silicon Valley. Yes, I know that is a term used to refer to Central California, but in reality, Israel is producing a huge amount of computer know-how that other countries are then using.

2. Israel is one of the major inventors of new medical technology in the world. Of course, this is to the benefit of the world.

3. Israel invents the best weapons and defence mechanisms on Earth. The Iron Dome may have been financed by the USA, but it was invented and made by Israelis.

4. Israel has developed the best security systems in the world in terms of their airport, their planes, and their general security nationwide. This knowledge is of course used by other countries.

5. Jews make up .02% of the world's population, but have received 22% of all the Nobel Prizes awarded. The world cannot live without Jewish know-how and it knows it. If the world stops supporting Israel, we'll just say fuck you, and take our ball and go home.

You see, my friends, much as the Gentile would like, they can't survive without us. We could survive without you. Our lives would be very different, and probably much harder, but we could do it. You could not survive without us. Our existence greases the society in which you live.

The fact that in the past you restricted us to lending money is an indicator of how much you need us. Somebody had to do it. So you made it our job. And then blamed us because after 500 years, we got good at it!

And ultimately, you need someone you can treat as a scapegoat. You need someone to hate. Without that target to blow shit back, your little pea-brains would likely explode.

Jews have always done the hardest work in the Goy world. We're designed for it. God (at least in my opinion) created Jews to be the whipping boy of the human race so you all could feel fucking good about yourselves. But, then, in 1948, we got ours. And that's what pisses you off. Well, get the fuck over it.

You can hate us as Jews. You can hate Israel as the Jewish State. But fundamentally, deep down in that black pit of a heart you have, you know I am right. Goyim use us as a reason to justify their own poor performance in the world  they inhabit. Welcome to real fucking life. And when their own nations are fucked up, especially as bad as they are in the Middle East (pretty much every nation there is a shithole), they now have the Jewish State to blame and criticise, thus drawing attention away from the real facts, namely, that the other Middle Eastern nations suck big green donkey dick.

So, put on your big-boy pants or big-girl panties, suck it the fuck up, and accept it, you need us far more than we need you. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 05, 2014, 09:52:39 AM
Do you think Jews are smarter than everyone else?  Because that's what I'm seeing in your comment.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 11:49:37 AM
Not inherantly, no. Its not some sort of blood driven thing that says "my race is better than your race" or some crazy batshit stuff like that. But as a culture, we have ALWAYS prized education far more than the majority have. In an age when 95% of Europe was illiterate, EVERY Jewish male could AT LEAST read Hebrew. To this day, the average Jew is far more likely to be college educated than his non-Jewish counterpart, etc, etc.

So no, not inherantly. But culturally, yes, we prize that sort of thing far more than most cultures. Certainly we prize it more than Muslims, who make up 23% of the world's population but have earned only 1% of the Nobel Prizes to date. Of course, I am sure that if they offered prizes in such categories as "how to build a good suicide bomber vest", or "how to turn a plane into a missile", or even the cruder "how to blow shit up", why, then they probably would be at the top of their game!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 05, 2014, 12:28:15 PM
Why, in the name of all sane things, would you send special forces to take out rocket launchers, to risk their lives, when said launchers will only be rebuilt somewhere else within days?
Well, they could also take out the militants running those rocket launchers while they're there.  Besides, if you prove that rocket launchers in civilian neighborhoods aren't safe, then maybe they'll stop setting them up there.

Far better to simply fight a real war and get it over with.
And even better than that would be to limit collateral damage to innocent civilians as well as your own national reputation.

How the Hell you claim victory after losing 2100 people, half of them militants, I don't begin to comprehend, but ok, fine.
By making Israel look like brutal savages who have no regard for civilian casualties.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 12:46:50 PM
QUOTE: "Well, they could also take out the militants running those rocket launchers while they're there.  Besides, if you prove that rocket launchers in civilian neighborhoods aren't safe, then maybe they'll stop setting them up there."

They know full well, as Israel does, as you do, that they can build those things right back there in about 15 minutes. That is a pointless argument.

QUOTE: "And even better than that would be to limit collateral damage to innocent civilians as well as your own national reputation."

Again, I submit to you that taking the time and effort to find 5 or ten rockets and spend the time and money required to destroy them at great risk to your own people, highly trained people, when they can be rebuilt within 15 minutes, does not seem logical or a in any way a smart way of fighting a war.

QUOTE: "By making Israel look like brutal savages who have no regard for civilian casualties."

Just because the rest of the world wants to have any reason they can find for continued Israel hatred and Jew hatred doesn't mean we as Jews have to watch Israel commit political suicide. That WOULD be just outright felony stupid.


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 05, 2014, 01:07:09 PM
The majority of the world didn't hate Israel, but it is making it damn hard not to.  Everything that has been invented by a Jew would probably have been invented by a non-Jew eventually, even possibly at the same time. There isn't a single race or nationality that the world needs to keep going, someone else is always waiting to fill in the void.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 01:41:56 PM
As I said, the world needs Jews just to have a convenient whipping boy, if nothing else. But I'll give you one thing that ALL of Western Civilisation depends upon. Hell, for that matter, so do the Muslims, even if they hate to admit it. Without it, none of you would be where you are today. So, let me grant that you could invent everything you have without our help (which I doubt, but for the sake of argument, fine). There is one thing you could not have created. The Jewish Bible (the Old Testament to you Christian influenced types). Without that, your entire worldview falls apart.

Without the Hebrew Bible, you would only have Greek philosophy, which in and of itself is not enough to keep a civilisation of any sort afloat long term. The fact is, they denigrated women and promoted homosexuality as ideal. That alone was a fatal fault that would have (eventually) destroyed their way of life. The Greeks were fine philosophers, and great artists, and so-forth, but their morality was in the toilet.

The pagan Germanics and Norse could not have welded themselves into a unified force without the fiction of "the Holy Roman Nation" and all that, which harks back to Roman Empire, which itself was Christianised, which religion came from guess what, Judaism!

Fundamentally, without Judaism as a motive force, Western Civilisation (and the Muslims as well, but that is a different conversation) breaks down. This is a fact that simply cannot be denied. Welcome to real life.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 05, 2014, 03:09:00 PM
Certainly we prize it more than Muslims, who make up 23% of the world's population but have earned only 1% of the Nobel Prizes to date.

The Nobel Prize is not the only nor the most accurate measure of the level of education of a culture.  It was probably euro-centric for a good part of its history, and it is limited to only a few fields of study.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 03:33:08 PM
So, answer me a simple question: in the last 300 years, what, other than oil and thoroughbred horses, of value has the Muslim World managed to produce? Ok, I'll grant, Persian rugs, and Persian kitties are nice. The last are nice and cuddly.

But seriously, the Middle East especially,and Muslims generally, have not been able to produce one thing of value that the world couldn't live without in 300 years. All they have done in 300 years is basically get in the way and piss the rest of the world off.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 05, 2014, 03:50:05 PM
So, answer me a simple question: in the last 300 years, what, other than oil and thoroughbred horses, of value has the Muslim World managed to produce? Ok, I'll grant, Persian rugs, and Persian kitties are nice. The last are nice and cuddly.

But seriously, the Middle East especially,and Muslims generally, have not been able to produce one thing of value that the world couldn't live without in 300 years. All they have done in 300 years is basically get in the way and piss the rest of the world off.

Naguib Mahfouz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naguib_Mahfouz)

Also, why do you have to make a contribution to the world at large to be considered educational?  Productivity is not the only index to measure education by.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 04:17:13 PM
Part of the 1% I've already accounted for, thank you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 05, 2014, 04:29:51 PM
Part of the 1% I've already accounted for, thank you.

Don't move the goalposts.  You asked:

So, answer me a simple question: in the last 300 years, what, other than oil and thoroughbred horses, of value has the Muslim World managed to produce?

So you were wrong.  Moving on.

By the way, do you hold the same contempt for developing countries that you hold for Islamic countries?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 05, 2014, 04:48:19 PM
I just looked at the list of Jew Nobel pre winners and why they won.

Its not exactly unique research.  Hell, most of Jews win in Economics.
So.... Yeah.

Also, Muslims have won a few peace prizes, like for brokering peace between Egypt and Israel.
Weird, a Muslim who didn't want to wipe out Israel and Jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 06:04:17 PM
Like I said, I already accounted for the 1% who DO receive Nobel Prizes, so that does not figure into the argument. As far as developing states, no, not generally. And its pretty bad when you have so many Muslims who want to kill Jews and wipe out Israel that the rare one who doesn't has to be given a Nobel fucking Peace Prize.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 05, 2014, 06:12:13 PM
And its pretty bad when you have so many Muslims who want to kill Jews and wipe out Israel that the rare one who doesn't has to be given a Nobel fucking Peace Prize.

The Muslim wasn't given the prize for not wanting to kill Jews, though.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 06:14:15 PM
Well yes, Anwar Sadat was, and so was Yassir Arafat, but that is beside the point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 05, 2014, 06:40:45 PM
The reverse is exactly why the three Israeli Peace Prize winners won the award.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 07:18:48 PM
Well, yes, that is to be expected. And look where it got any of the five. NOWHERE. The only peace that will ever exist between Israel and its neighbours is the one where Israel says, "Don't fuck with me, because if you do, I will blow your ass to smithereens, so just say thank you for my civilisation and move along."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 05, 2014, 08:01:40 PM
So, answer me a simple question: in the last 300 years, what, other than oil and thoroughbred horses, of value has the Muslim World managed to produce? Ok, I'll grant, Persian rugs, and Persian kitties are nice. The last are nice and cuddly.

But seriously, the Middle East especially,and Muslims generally, have not been able to produce one thing of value that the world couldn't live without in 300 years. All they have done in 300 years is basically get in the way and piss the rest of the world off.
Islam pretty much brought Europe out of the dark ages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe
You're welcome.
Title: Re: Ask a Zionist anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 05, 2014, 09:06:03 PM
Can a mod please change the title to "Ask a Zionist anything"
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Sean on September 05, 2014, 09:29:20 PM
So, answer me a simple question: in the last 300 years, what, other than oil and thoroughbred horses, of value has the Muslim World managed to produce? Ok, I'll grant, Persian rugs, and Persian kitties are nice. The last are nice and cuddly.

But seriously, the Middle East especially,and Muslims generally, have not been able to produce one thing of value that the world couldn't live without in 300 years. All they have done in 300 years is basically get in the way and piss the rest of the world off.
Islam pretty much brought Europe out of the dark ages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe
You're welcome.

literally 300 years ago
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 05, 2014, 09:41:14 PM
What is the "Muslim World"? For comparison, what has the Jewish World produced?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 05, 2014, 11:00:44 PM
What is the "Muslim World"? For comparison, what has the Jewish World produced?

(http://www.jacquelinejules.com/images/hanukkah/Dreidel.jpg)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 05, 2014, 11:42:44 PM
What is the "Muslim World"? For comparison, what has the Jewish World produced?

(http://www.jacquelinejules.com/images/hanukkah/Dreidel.jpg)

(http://www.hoffmans.com/v/vspfiles/photos/11216-2T.jpg)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 05, 2014, 11:43:40 PM
What is the "Muslim World"? For comparison, what has the Jewish World produced?

(http://www.jacquelinejules.com/images/hanukkah/Dreidel.jpg)

(http://www.hoffmans.com/v/vspfiles/photos/11216-2T.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/rjLq6VW.jpg)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 02:25:39 AM
I said the last 300 years, not the last 1000. No one, not even me, disputes that Islam at one time had some level of relevance in the  world. We probably could have done without it, but admittedly, it would have taken longer for us to achieve the things we did. I never argued that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 06, 2014, 03:21:30 AM
When I said the world needs no single group of people to continue, I was talking about today, not as if Jews never existed.  One could make an argument that without religion we would be a more peaceful species, see Jews and Muslims blowing each other up for an example.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 03:32:56 AM
Well, lets see, as I said, the Jews gave us the Old Testament, the Polio vaccine, 22% of all the Nobel Prizes (which isn't bad, since they make up .02% of the population of the world), etc. Most of what Gentiles watch on TV and in the cinema was created by Jews (Seinfeld, anyone?, Star Trek [both Shatner and Nimoy are Jews], and God knows what else, much of which is good, and much of which admittedly isn't),  pretty much the entire psychiatric profession, and quite a few other things. The banking system, oddly enough, was NOT. Although Jews are widely seen as money lenders, that was a profession forced on them by Christians, who made it illegal for Jews to work in any others when dealing with non-Jews. Jews could only buy, sell, and repair appliances and the like, and lend money. After 500 years of it, they did get good at it. There are, of course, well known Jewish bankers, and Jewish financiers. That does come from this. However, MOST of the banking system in the USA is in Gentile hands, despite what misguided persons want to believe.

What is the Muslim World. It is that part of the Word that is predominantly Muslim. That should NOT be too hard to figure out. The Jewish World doesn't exist except for Israel, which is the only majority Jewish nation IN the world. The Christian world, also called the Western World, is obvious as well.

Duck, you can make that argument all you want, until the entire human race has been fed to the dogs. The fact is that if humans didn't fight about religion, they would fight about something else. In fact, Jews and Muslims are not, and NEVER have, fought about religion, really. Its mostly about money, power, and pussy. These are the three things men (as in males of the species) want more than anything else. They may use religion as a motive force to get them, but that is what they want. Religion is a cover. Or Nationalism. Or Capitalism. Or Communism. Or Whateverism. In fact, Judaism is one of the few religions that tries to tame the inherant desire for all three. I don't have the time to get into it here, but Judaism tries through its Mitzvot to tame men's (and women's) lusts for things such as money, power, and pussy through disciplinary methods that are far more efficient than any other religion I've ever studied, and I can fairly say I've studied just about all the major ones. You and I can have that conversation if you like, but NOT here. Send me a private message if you so desire. I am not about to get into that in a public forum.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 06, 2014, 05:00:13 AM
Apparently it cannot blunt their desire for bloodshed.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 05:20:02 AM
RAMA, that was just a stupid response. No one desires bloodshed. But Jews do desire to keep their own blood from being shed. And lets face it: If the choice comes down to dying for your country or making the other poor bastard die for his (non)country (in the case of the "Palestinians"),  any sane person will choose the latter. And we've already discussed the need to fight a conventional war, rather than try to send in the Mossad to take out 10 rocket launchers that can be replaced in 15 minutes. So don't go there.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 06, 2014, 11:32:14 AM
Yaakov, would it be safe to say that you've never been a member of anyone's military?  If so, then that would explain an awful lot.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 06, 2014, 12:27:15 PM
How much must a jew jew in order to jew jew jew?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 01:14:09 PM
MARK, I don't know how that is relevant. I do understand human psychology whether I have or have not been in a military force. I agree that it is not easy to find someone who is willing to shoot another person in the head. On the other hand, it isn't hard, either. It just is. I'm not going to answer the question, because I don't think it needs answering. I may have been, I may not have been. It doesn't change the fundamentals of my thinking.

BEARDO, any more of that shit, and I report it to the moderators. I can handle a lot, but outright anti-semitic shit you can keep to your own f-----g self.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 06, 2014, 01:47:16 PM
Are all jews completely devoid of a sense of humour, or is it just you?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 06, 2014, 02:09:59 PM
Do you consider Jew converts to be real Jews?

How do you feel about Noahides?

Thought I might as well as you these questions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 06, 2014, 03:30:15 PM
MARK, I don't know how that is relevant. I do understand human psychology whether I have or have not been in a military force. I agree that it is not easy to find someone who is willing to shoot another person in the head. On the other hand, it isn't hard, either. It just is. I'm not going to answer the question, because I don't think it needs answering. I may have been, I may not have been. It doesn't change the fundamentals of my thinking.

You obviously did not serve, at least in wartime, because everyone I know who has have been profoundly changed by the experience.

Quote
BEARDO, any more of that shit, and I report it to the moderators. I can handle a lot, but outright anti-semitic shit you can keep to your own f-----g self.

That was not anti anything, it was absurd. Relax man.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on September 06, 2014, 04:02:48 PM
BEARDO, any more of that shit, and I report it to the moderators. I can handle a lot, but outright anti-semitic shit you can keep to your own f-----g self.

Anti-semitism is not against the rules.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 06, 2014, 04:46:28 PM
VAUXHALL, of course dinosaurs existed. The story of Creation, while accurate in its own way, was NOT intended to be scientific. The first 11 chapters of Genesis (at least in my opinion, and in the opinion of many scholarly persons, both Jewish and Christian) can be taken as Pre-history, legendary material. Although some of it may be literally true, a lot of it is clearly legendary material that is similar to other stuff you find in narrative stories throughout the Middle East.

I know the Rabbis of Blessed Memory had a way to adjust for the existence of dinosaurs, but I'd have to look it up to find out what it was, and those books are still packed. However, there WAS an explanation given to explain how the dinosaurs did indeed exist before Adam and Eve existed. I'll see what I can find. I am feeling better, but now my wife is ill, and I must tend to her, and continue to care for my own self to make sure we both get totally well. But in between that, I will TRY to learn more about the matter.

And again, I don't know WHY God does or does NOT appear to non-Jews. I do have an idea why he no longer appears to us, as I explained. And who knows, maybe, just maybe, he will deem it appropriate to return the prophecy to Israel.

There is certainty that at some time in the future, things WILL happen that involve Israel and the Jews. The return of the Jews to Israel, the Coming of Messiah (no, not Jesus, or any other god), the rebuilding of the Temple, the Battle of Armageddon, the bringing about of World Peace, etc, all have been foretold in our Scriptures. It WILL happen. Its merely a question of when.

So in that sense, you can say that the prophecy WILL return to Israel. Its just a matter of when.

Are you saying that humans existed before dinos? That's a pretty ground breaking discovery, if true. However, there is no evidence to suggest that humans predate dinosaurs, or that humans and dinosaurs lived together. I would like to see this dinosaur explanation that the Rabbis of Blessed Memory provide, so if you can find it that would be great.

Also, the Old Testament predicts the coming of a Messiah... yet you don't think it's Jesus. Why not? It seems like Jesus fits the description you've provided pretty well.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 06:59:29 PM
QUOTE: "Do you consider Jew converts to be real Jews? How do you feel about Noahides? Thought I might as well as you these questions."

LEMON, of course converts are real Jews! David's grandmother Ruth was a convert. A convert is to be treated as no different than any other Jew. A Jew by Choice in many ways is more courageous than a Jew by Birth. Noahides are certainly admirable persons. They are not Jews, as they have never sought to be. They worship in Synagogues, but they are welcome to have a ham sandwich afterword for lunch. Jewish Law ONLY applies to Jews. It does not apply to non-Jews, even Righteous Ones, such as Noahides, or other Righteous Among the Nations.


QUOTE: "Are you saying that humans existed before dinos? That's a pretty ground breaking discovery, if true. However, there is no evidence to suggest that humans predate dinosaurs, or that humans and dinosaurs lived together. I would like to see this dinosaur explanation that the Rabbis of Blessed Memory provide, so if you can find it that would be great.

Also, the Old Testament predicts the coming of a Messiah... yet you don't think it's Jesus. Why not? It seems like Jesus fits the description you've provided pretty well."

I would suggest to you that anyone who believes that humans predated dinosaurs, or even co-existed with them, should probably take a Seventh Grade Science course. If their belief persists thereafter, then they should probably seek an appointment with a psychiatrist.

The first 11 chapters of Genesis are NOT a science book. They seek to explain through story and imagery how humans came to be and how we came to understand God. Most of those chapters, while POSSIBLY having a grain of truth in them (like the Flood, which has similar stories throughout the world, and can therefore be taken as possibly true) are intended to tell a story,

I have heard other arguments, of course. One argument goes that the "days of Creation" were not literal 24 hour days but could have been eons of time. Thus, each "day" could account for whole ages of existence, in which the animal kingdoms had their lives and deaths, starting with primordial ooze, moving through the waters, then the amphibian types, then the reptiles, including dinosaurs, then the mammals, then us (the highest form of mammal). Its a possibility.

I don't claim to know all the answers. If I knew all that, I would be God, which I most manifestly am not! I'll see what I can find on the Rabbis, but it may take some time, as I am still unpacking.

Regarding the Messiah, actually, Jesus doesn't fit the definition at all. The Messiah shall come, born of two human parents (not a virgin birth to a mother and God). He shall be a descendant of King David (which Jesus likely was, I'll grant, but ascent to the Throne of David goes through the father's line, NOT the mother's, so if Jesus had no human father, then he cannot ascend the Throne of David, and adoption does not count according to Jewish Law). He shall bring about world peace (which Jesus did not do). He shall either rebuild the Temple, or dedicate a newly built one (the Temple was destroyed after his death). He shall re-establish the Davidic Kingdom of Israel (in 70 CE, the Romans defeated the Jews in the last of the Roman-Jewish Wars and exiled most but not all of them from the Land) and restore all Jews to the Land (see above). I could go on, but I think I've made my point.


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 06, 2014, 08:16:40 PM
As I said, the world needs Jews just to have a convenient whipping boy, if nothing else. But I'll give you one thing that ALL of Western Civilisation depends upon. Hell, for that matter, so do the Muslims, even if they hate to admit it. Without it, none of you would be where you are today. So, let me grant that you could invent everything you have without our help (which I doubt, but for the sake of argument, fine). There is one thing you could not have created. The Jewish Bible (the Old Testament to you Christian influenced types). Without that, your entire worldview falls apart.

Without the Hebrew Bible, you would only have Greek philosophy, which in and of itself is not enough to keep a civilisation of any sort afloat long term. The fact is, they denigrated women and promoted homosexuality as ideal. That alone was a fatal fault that would have (eventually) destroyed their way of life. The Greeks were fine philosophers, and great artists, and so-forth, but their morality was in the toilet.

The pagan Germanics and Norse could not have welded themselves into a unified force without the fiction of "the Holy Roman Nation" and all that, which harks back to Roman Empire, which itself was Christianised, which religion came from guess what, Judaism!

Fundamentally, without Judaism as a motive force, Western Civilisation (and the Muslims as well, but that is a different conversation) breaks down. This is a fact that simply cannot be denied. Welcome to real life.

Sorry, but did you just admit that Jews are responsible for a good portion of the horrible things in the world?  Including the very Muslims that hate them?

Also:
1,000 years seems to be a pretty good time for a civilization.

And the Roman Empire was doing pretty good without Christianity.  In fact, Christianity of the Roman Empire accounts for the destruction of multiple cultures and some very unpleasant things being done to people.

Finally:
My world view operates just fine without the Jewish Bible or Christian values.  In fact, most civilizations went along just fine without Christianity, Jeudaism, or Islam.  They fell apart when the gold seeking conqueror of Christianity (thanks Jews) wiped them off the map.

I mean, you call upon the Greeks as morally terrible but your only evidence seems to be their acceptance of homosexuality.  I personally consider a religion that gains political power and uses that power to get money for the sake of greed, torture people for the sake of power, and conquer of less technologically developed cultures for the sake of both.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 11:05:16 PM
I would suggest to you that the Arabs do not hate the Jews because the Arabs are Muslim and we are religiously otherwise. I would suggest that that hatred goes back to Abraham's two sons, Isaac (the Son of the Promise, and father of the Jewish People), and Ishmael (the father of the Arab People). THAT is how far back you need to look, NOT to Mohammed.

And I never said I hated Christianity. Sure, it was pretty brutal to us, but it has since grown out of most of that crap. EVERYBODY has been brutal to us at one point or other, whether they descended from us religiously or not. The Greeks were, the Romans were, the Muslims were and are, The Christians were, and rarely still are, I could go on...

About Islam. It is descended spiritually from Judaism if you read the Qur'an. You can tell that the book is a rip-off of the the Old and New Testaments, as well as apocryphal beliefs coming from both Jewish and Christian traditions. Mohammed was and was not an idiot. he incorporated a lot of raw material into the Qur'an, but got a lot of the beliefs wrong in the process. For example, his concept of the Christian Trinity is totally nonsense. I remember that when I read it, vs how it is actually taught in the Church of England, I couldn't believe it was the same idea. I don't agree with the Trinitarian belief, of course, but if you are going to reject a belief, at LEAST get what your rejecting right for heaven's sake!

As far as conquering people for the sake of power, and the like, I agree, Christianity did that. But so did Alexander the Great. He was culturally Greek. It was under his successors that one of the three began to persecute us, ultimately bringing about the Maccabees and their rebellion, and the story of Hanukah. So don't tell me the Greeks couldn't do it. They could and did. And probably would have continued if they had not been stopped by us, and by later forces putting their empire to an end (ie, the Romans, and so-forth).

Lets face it, man. Men (as in males) want three things: money, power, and pussy.They will use whatever they have as an excuse to get those three things, whether its Nationalism, Capitalism, Communism, Religion (be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or etc), or Whateverism. In fact, Judaism is the one religion out of all the ones I've studied (and I've studied most of the major world religions in pretty thorough detail), that does a fairly good job of instilling a control over the desire for these three things (money, power, and pussy) by disciplinary techniques that doesn't take away one's proper use of them, but does discourage their IMPROPER use. Other religions don't seem to do as well regulating that, in my mind. They either allow libertinism or encourage total repression of the urges.

So, no, I don't think Judaism created the things I hate. Judaism had it right. Things that came out of Judaism would have been fine if they had maintained the broadness of mind that the Rabbis of Blessed Memory always had in understanding humans and the world around us. With Jews, you get the real deal. We don't play. Christianity is like margarine vs real butter, and Islam barely even counts as religion, in my mind. But take this info and do what you like.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 07, 2014, 01:12:18 AM
I will take this information and choose to strongly dislike Jews.  I will only like those Jews who I get to know and like on a personal level, but until then, I dislike all Jews.

You have made one more enemy today.  Congrats.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on September 07, 2014, 01:12:47 AM
I will take this information and choose to strongly dislike Jews.  I will only like those Jews who I get to know and like on a personal level, but until then, I dislike all Jews.

You have made one more enemy today.  Congrats.


omg literally anti-semitism
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 07, 2014, 01:30:04 AM
Yaakov, what is your opinion on the mentally handicapped? Are they favored by God? Do they get into heaven? Or do you think they should be euthanized humanely?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 01:58:47 AM
LORD DAVE, I would recommend growing up, and acting like an adult. So, one more enemy. Take a number, get in line, asshole.

The mentally handicapped have a share in the World to Come (Paradise). Their condition is certainly NOT their fault, and they should be cared for humanely. Their human rights do not end just because they have mental issues.

I don't know what "favoured of God" would mean, exactly. How does being mentally damaged in some way make you favoured or NOT favoured of God? For whatever reason that we don't understand, God makes certain people with what we as humans perceive to be as weaknesses. Are they weaknesses? I don't know. Maybe the boy with Autism can show me something special about his specialty of trains that I would never have known before. Maybe the girl with Down's can make me stop and look at a flower differently than I might have otherwise.

We talk about people Learned in Torah as favoured of God. Are they? Or did they just set their mind to doing a thing and get darn good at it? What about someone who is good in his or her profession? Or a good father or mother? And so-forth.

All these things make you "favoured of God". Why? Because all humans are favoured of God, until they create odious philosophical concepts or religions that make them NOT favoured of God. When people start blowing shit up, cutting off heads, and doing other horrible things of that nature, then they must be fought, so that not all hope is lost from the world.

Yes, I speak of Muslims. But they are NOT born as bad people any more than you and I are. It is their odious belief structure that turns into that kind of thing.

Back to the mentally handicapped. Good God, why would I want to kill them? That's insane! Respect for all life forbids that! The only reason I want to take out Muslims is so they don't take me out first. If they turn peaceful toward me, I will deal them peace in return. It IS that simple.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 07, 2014, 02:10:18 AM
I am glad you don't agree with killing the mentally handicapped. Many cultures have killed slow people at birth or during adolescence because they were viewed as evil or vile in some way. It is good to know that my man YHWH smiles upon them because I have several in my family.

One thing I don't understand though. You say that "everyone is favored by God until they start killing people and blowing things up", which you attribute to Muslim extremist ideology. However, you are on record all over this forum supporting the murder of these people and even innocents who are caught in the crossfire. From what you have said it seems like you, Yaakov, would not be favored by God.

Is God OK with killing people who kill people? OR is this just a huge double-standard?

If God is OK with killing people who kill people: Shouldn't these killers of killers be killing themselves?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 07, 2014, 02:18:27 AM
LORD DAVE, I would recommend growing up, and acting like an adult. So, one more enemy. Take a number, get in line, asshole.

Are you suggesting that Adults don't hate others based on the opinions expressed by someone claiming to represent the group in some fashion?  Because I got some horrible news for you if that's the case...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 02:25:33 AM
BLANKO, I am inclined to agree that it IS literal anti-Semitism. The only reason I choose not to report it to Moderators is that I don't want the moderators to know my e-mail address at present. I know the Administrators have it. But the Moderators only get it apparently when you submit a Moderation Report request. Because I like to tread rather lightly on the "Net" I'll avoid sending him to Mods.

Besides, I've had far more important people hate me in the world either because I'm a Jew OR for personal reasons. So, LORD DAVE,  I tell you what. Why don't you bend over and crack a smile for us, asswipe. Just because you've got shit for brains doesn't mean the rest of us are in that boat.

Actually, as pointed out, VAUXHALL, in one other thread, I tend to keep myself limited to one or two threads, since I know my views are pretty hard-core.

I think the Bible (as in the Jewish Bible) is pretty clear that it permits execution for murder. If someone murders another person without cause, the community of Israel was duty bound to take that person's life.

Remember, VAUXHALL. whether you care to admit it or not, ISIS, Al Quaeda, Al Shabaab, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc, have told us that they are at war with us. They deserve credit for one thing. The bastards are honest. They've never lied to us or anyone else about how they feel. They WANT to destroy Western Civilisation. In the words of a recent ISIS defector. "First they will make a Caliphate of the Arab World. Then they will go after other countries."

When someone does you the favour of TELLING you that he doesn't fucking like you, that he intends to convert you, force you to live as a second-class citizen and pay a tax, or kill you, and when he informs you that he is GOING to take over your shit no matter what he has to do to achieve that, it is best that you take him seriously. And I mean, VERY seriously.

Under those circumstances, the enemy is being bluntly straightforward and honest. It is best we do so as well. The ONLY way to deal with that kind of honesty is honesty of our own. Namely, the kind that says, "Ah, no. You are not taking over my shit, I am not converting, paying a Jizya tax, or being killed. And I will kill you to prevent those things from happening." They want to be Shahids (Martyrs)? Good. Then lets make them such.

I choose to live by the principle that says the following: rather than dying for my country or ideals or whatever, I should prefer to make the other poor bastard die for his.

The Torah, and the entire Jewish Bible, takes account for punishing murder, and also for defending the House of Israel in war. And yes, Jews everywhere are, or should be, at war with ISIS and EVERYTHING they represent. And guess what: Picking up a fucking weapon, and being prepared to use it, may become necessary to defend yourself and all you hold dear whether you are a Jew, a Christian, an Israeli, or an American. These ISIS bastards want all of us paying Jizya, converted, or dead. I choose none of the three.

Actually, no, DAVE. I'm merely suggesting that your a pompous, blowhard, asshole. Get over yourself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 07, 2014, 05:24:46 AM
I don't hate you Yaakov. I was just messing around. Calm down.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 12:49:44 PM
BEARDO, relax. I overreacted. You're cool.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on September 07, 2014, 01:15:58 PM
BLANKO, I am inclined to agree that it IS literal anti-Semitism. The only reason I choose not to report it to Moderators is that I don't want the moderators to know my e-mail address at present. I know the Administrators have it. But the Moderators only get it apparently when you submit a Moderation Report request. Because I like to tread rather lightly on the "Net" I'll avoid sending him to Mods.

I don't know where you got that idea. Moderators do see your email.

Also, again, no action will be taken against anti-semitism unless it's a targeted insult or deliberately off-topic. If we had a policy of punishing people for disdain against specific ethnicities, then you would have been banned several times over, you can be sure of that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 01:37:42 PM
BLANKO, you might have a point on that last. I thought only admins had my e-mail. Oh, well. Doesn't matter. I still don't feel the need to report him. He's an ass. I deal with them regularly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 07, 2014, 02:11:07 PM
I would suggest to you that the Arabs do not hate the Jews because the Arabs are Muslim and we are religiously otherwise. I would suggest that that hatred goes back to Abraham's two sons, Isaac (the Son of the Promise, and father of the Jewish People), and Ishmael (the father of the Arab People). THAT is how far back you need to look, NOT to Mohammed.

And this is why religion poisons everyithing.

Someone wrote a storybook once, in which they simplistically claimed one group of people are decended from one person and another group of people are descended from another. The odds alone for this to be true are staggeringly improbable.

There is no evidential basis for your story book. You'll get along with people a lot more, and your life will be easier, if you don't cling to its idiotic, medieval and feudal notions of tribal hatred.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 07, 2014, 03:02:40 PM
Yaakov, you've insulted me, other members, arabs, muslims, and most of the people on the planet multiple times.  You have implied that most jews believe as you do: that the jewish people are superior.  You call anyone who challenges the cultural, intellectual, and moral superiority of the Jew, "children".   

You think anyone who dislikes jews is either anti-semite or barbarians.

If this kind of behavior is what it means to be an adult, then call me Huck Finn.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 07, 2014, 03:16:28 PM
But Dave! The Jews are Gods chosen! Of course they are superior!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 03:54:35 PM
And I would suggest, FAPP, that you have a personal problem. The Bible (The Jewish Bible) has continued to be proven correct on everything it has talked about. Archaeology has indicated so far that as far back as we can go, the Bible has been accurate. I have no doubt that Abraham will be proven as well when archaeology has gone back far enough to do it.

Since Israelite Faith dates BACK to Abraham himself, it is rather difficult to argue that he never existed. If he never had existed, where would Hebrew Faith have come from? He WAS the first Hebrew! It should be noted that Judaism is not just a religion. It is a civilisation. Religion may be its most important element, but that is NOT all there is to it. And it never would have existed if it had not for Abraham following his God's command to leave his home in Ur and make for Canaan.

Judaism has been around for 4500 years. Abraham was around 4500 years ago. What else could it have been?

QUOTE: "Yaakov, you've insulted me, other members, arabs, muslims, and most of the people on the planet multiple times.  You have implied that most jews believe as you do: that the jewish people are superior.  You call anyone who challenges the cultural, intellectual, and moral superiority of the Jew, "children".   

You think anyone who dislikes jews is either anti-semite or barbarians."

Actually, I grant I've insulted Muslims and Arabs. I have NOT insulted others on the planet. I have NOT implied anything about what other Jews think or do not think. I have insulted you, because I do think you are an idiot, yes. Other members in some cases, yes, in other cases no. Yes, anybody who dislikes Jews is by definition an anti-Semite and yes, a barbarian. what else would you call them? If I hated Black people (I don't) I would be called racist. What other word would there be for it? And yes, I do perceive my own culture as somewhat superior to others, but that is natural. Any person who DOESN"T see their own culture as superior to others is going to commit cultural suicide. That is a case of Felony Stupid.

So, for the record. I don't like Arabs, or Muslims generally. I do think Lord Dave is a fucktard. Anyone who dislikes Jews IS an anti-Semite, just as anyone who disliked Blacks would be a racist. And any rational human should prefer his own culture to that of another. To further clarify, I am an English Jew. I prefer the English and Jewish civilisations as the most civilised as of the world.

I know, I know, that is going to sound not Politically Correct. Well, tough shit. Wake up, my friends. Political Correctness is NOT one of my strong points.




Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 07, 2014, 05:38:44 PM
Why would Abraham have to exist for Judaism to exist?  People make up fictions to suit their needs all the time.

How far back has archaeology in Israel gone?  I mean there is still no archaeological proof for the Temple of Solomon which was supposedly destroyed in 537BC.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 06:37:09 PM
Actually that would be 587-586 BCE. And the only reason that that subject hasn't been looked into more closely is because of the, yes, you guessed it, Muslims, whose Dome of the Rock currently defaces Temple Mount. It should be removed piece by piece so as not to damage the grounds beneath it and restored in Mecca or Medina. Refusal for this offer means it should be removed piece by piece and then blown up.

There is some evidence for the Exodus, albeit not in the numbers the Bible uses, which may be taken as symbolic. THAT is how far back it goes.

As far as the Temple goes, they were doing research recently, looking for the Ark of the Covenant, trying to find it, and were coming very close to finding it, when they had to stop because the so-called "Palestinians" began to riot. IF they were to find the Ark, that would prove that we had rights to the Temple Mount. Instead of simply shooting the rioters (the best option in my opinion), they found it PC to stop research. The reason I say "coming very close" is because they had reached a door beyond which the evidence in the Bible, if I am not mistaken (and I might be; I might be referring to some other source) indicated the Ark would be.

As for Abraham, you do make a good argument. However, Jews and Arabs are clearly related to each other. They are both Semitic, and share certain things in their common descent that neither of them shares with non-Jews/non-Arabs. I may not like the Arab, but he is unfortunately a half-brother. I'm guessing he got his savagery from his Egyptian slave side.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 07, 2014, 07:06:59 PM
Actually that would be 587-586 BCE. And the only reason that that subject hasn't been looked into more closely is because of the, yes, you guessed it, Muslims, whose Dome of the Rock currently defaces Temple Mount. It should be removed piece by piece so as not to damage the grounds beneath it and restored in Mecca or Medina. Refusal for this offer means it should be removed piece by piece and then blown up.

There is some evidence for the Exodus, albeit not in the numbers the Bible uses, which may be taken as symbolic. THAT is how far back it goes.

As far as the Temple goes, they were doing research recently, looking for the Ark of the Covenant, trying to find it, and were coming very close to finding it, when they had to stop because the so-called "Palestinians" began to riot. IF they were to find the Ark, that would prove that we had rights to the Temple Mount. Instead of simply shooting the rioters (the best option in my opinion), they found it PC to stop research. The reason I say "coming very close" is because they had reached a door beyond which the evidence in the Bible, if I am not mistaken (and I might be; I might be referring to some other source) indicated the Ark would be.

As for Abraham, you do make a good argument. However, Jews and Arabs are clearly related to each other. They are both Semitic, and share certain things in their common descent that neither of them shares with non-Jews/non-Arabs. I may not like the Arab, but he is unfortunately a half-brother. I'm guessing he got his savagery from his Egyptian slave side.

If they found the Ark, wouldn't they have to demonstrate its supernatural powers before you could make any claims about it proving the Bible? Otherwise it would just be an old fancy chest that legends were written about.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: canofpepsi on September 07, 2014, 07:09:25 PM
If they found the Ark, wouldn't they have to demonstrate its supernatural powers before you could make any claims about it proving the Bible? Otherwise it would just be an old fancy chest that legends were written about.
the bible proves the bible, we need nothing more
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 07:44:31 PM
Actually, I agree with Tausami. And I think that's what A LOT of people are VERY afraid of. And I don't know that I can accept the idea that the Bible proves the Bible. That sounds like awfully circular logic to me. I mean, I agree, often-times there are things in the text historically that do verify things that were reported earlier. But you HAVE to have external witnesses also. You can't just have a closed circuit there. That's like North Korea only allowing its people to use in-country intranet, rather than internet. They end up not knowing anything about what's going on in the world, or even in their own country.

If the Bible cannot stand up to external view, what is its value? Any decent Bible timeline will show both Biblical events and secular events drawn from history. Archaeology will prove the Bible right, eventually, though it may take a long time to get there. CANOFPEPSI, faith is a good thing, and I admire it, but blind, dumb faith is a bad idea for anybody, Jewish or otherwise. We have to let secular wisdom inform our faith, or we are fools.

So, there you are. I'm not advocating a complete secularisation of holy things. That would be absurd. As an example, I do not agree with 95% of the so-called 'modern biblical scholarship" of the last 120 years or so. But some limited application of both Literary and Historical Criticism to the Bible is NOT a bad thing! Granted, that can be overdone.

Liberation theology and the Fundamental Option for the Poor is relevant, although it too, can be turned into something a bit to radical. But fundamentally, religion of any sort has to open itself to criticism of its own behaviour, and criticism of its own holy texts. To do otherwise is to negate its own purpose in the world of ideas.

A lot of people in this thread have taken a dislike to me. That's fine. I can live with that. I have very strong views, and I believe they are correct ones. But not everyone in Judaism agrees with me. In fact, the majority probably do not, at least not with the stridency that I hold them. And many would adamantly disagree.

But, the purpose of this thread is NOT so you like me. The purpose of the thread is to debate and come away more knowledgeable. I have given you my own personal opinions on all kinds of shite. If anyone has questions generally for Judaism as a whole, I shall try to answer them, irrespective of my personal beliefs. But note that my beliefs are PART of what make up Judaism. I am on the right wing, granted. And there are some on the radical left wing of Judaism. That's ok. I don't judge them for how they choose to be Jewish, as long as they afford me the same courtesy. Most people fall into the vast middle.

And you will find that, aside from the conflicts in the Middle East, I am generally a fairly rational human being. I have ALWAYS admitted here and elsewhere that this IS NOT a subject  that I can discuss rationally, just because I get so infuriated by it. Pick any other topic, and we can have a constructive conversation. But this one... well, that's harder.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 07, 2014, 07:47:47 PM
Actually that would be 587-586 BCE. And the only reason that that subject hasn't been looked into more closely is because of the, yes, you guessed it, Muslims, whose Dome of the Rock currently defaces Temple Mount. It should be removed piece by piece so as not to damage the grounds beneath it and restored in Mecca or Medina. Refusal for this offer means it should be removed piece by piece and then blown up.

There is some evidence for the Exodus, albeit not in the numbers the Bible uses, which may be taken as symbolic. THAT is how far back it goes.

As far as the Temple goes, they were doing research recently, looking for the Ark of the Covenant, trying to find it, and were coming very close to finding it, when they had to stop because the so-called "Palestinians" began to riot. IF they were to find the Ark, that would prove that we had rights to the Temple Mount. Instead of simply shooting the rioters (the best option in my opinion), they found it PC to stop research. The reason I say "coming very close" is because they had reached a door beyond which the evidence in the Bible, if I am not mistaken (and I might be; I might be referring to some other source) indicated the Ark would be.

As for Abraham, you do make a good argument. However, Jews and Arabs are clearly related to each other. They are both Semitic, and share certain things in their common descent that neither of them shares with non-Jews/non-Arabs. I may not like the Arab, but he is unfortunately a half-brother. I'm guessing he got his savagery from his Egyptian slave side.

They are related to each other because they are from the same piece of land not necessarily because there were two brothers named in the bible. This is the problem with cherry-picking bible passages to be historical without outside support. You are assuming on no evidence that the life of Abraham is historical and not metaphorical. Why?  The only reason I can see is because you need it to support your supposedly privileged place in God's order. No covenant and the Jews are nothing more than a small tribe of particularly war-loving people who worshipped an obscure thunder god which the Roman's brought to prominence.

If you were rational, this would be your default position until there is evidence to show Abraham actually existed. 

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 08:09:36 PM
Again, your argument is well turned. But there IS a Covenant, and has been one for 4500 years. As long as there have been Jews, there has been a Covenant. Go back to any point in the entire history of the Jewish People. You will find a Covenant People. Until such time in the historical timeline as we don't exist (ie, before our existence), there was a People, the Jews, who embodied the Covenantal ideal. I am not going to convince you. And that is fine. I don't have to. This is what I believe. You can choose to disagree with it. But it is rational based on my understanding of history. As long as Jews have been Jews (and before that Israelites, and before that Hebrews), there has been a Covenant. That Covenant had to start somewhere. And Hebrews began to exist with Abraham. Archaeology will one day prove me right. Until then, I am not going to lose any beauty sleep about it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 07, 2014, 08:58:57 PM
And I would suggest, FAPP, that you have a personal problem. The Bible (The Jewish Bible) has continued to be proven correct on everything it has talked about.

You have got to be shitting me. This is the moment when we all realise we're not engaged in conversation with a rational person.

Anyway...

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scientific_errors_in_the_Bible (cool segway back to this site btw)
http://biblebabble.curbjaw.com/errors.htm
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html

The Bible was written by people that pretty much shat themselves every night in fear that the sun might never come back. You need to understand and accept this fact.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 09:11:22 PM
I NEVER suggested that the Bible was a science book! I don't know WHERE you got that idea. Using the Bible to explain Creation, or anything like that, is absurd. The first 11 chapters of Genesis are legendary material. Anyone knows that. Nor do I think God was being a biology teacher when he told us what to eat! Again, telling us the Earth is flat is nothing beyond explaining what we are looking at. God is not trying to prove any lesson there. A bat is not a bird. So what? It looked like a bird to the Hebrews when it was in the air. Why tell them it was a rodent and confuse them as to what they should be eating or not?

I was referring to historical events, you idiot, not science. The fact that Jews were enslaved in Egypt, and left. The fact that they entered Canaan by means both military and peaceful. The whole timeline on that sort of thing. If God had wanted to teach us science he'd have dropped my Seventh Grade Science Teacher Mr. Dart down there, not the Bible! God, you really are a dumbshit!

And no, the people that did write the Bible were not so stupid as to believe that the sun wouldn't come back. How stupid can you be, you dipshit? They already knew it would. They, and their ancestors had lived on the planet long enough to invent the written word, which takes awhile. Just because you aren't that bright doesn't give you the right to insult the rest of us with your idiocy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 07, 2014, 09:18:48 PM
Again, your argument is well turned. But there IS a Covenant, and has been one for 4500 years. As long as there have been Jews, there has been a Covenant. Go back to any point in the entire history of the Jewish People. You will find a Covenant People. Until such time in the historical timeline as we don't exist (ie, before our existence), there was a People, the Jews, who embodied the Covenantal ideal. I am not going to convince you. And that is fine. I don't have to. This is what I believe. You can choose to disagree with it. But it is rational based on my understanding of history. As long as Jews have been Jews (and before that Israelites, and before that Hebrews), there has been a Covenant. That Covenant had to start somewhere. And Hebrews began to exist with Abraham. Archaeology will one day prove me right. Until then, I am not going to lose any beauty sleep about it.

You are welcome to believe that, but it is inherently irrational. Surely you can recognize that?  There is no good evidence for a covenant other than your culture claiming it is so. It is no different than any other group that claims to have a privileged relationship with the supernatural. Until such time as there is non-anecdotal evidence for a covenant, it should be viewed as large scale narcissism and treated as such.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 07, 2014, 09:19:12 PM
This is the moment when we all realise we're not engaged in conversation with a rational person.
I think this is something we were aware of for a long time now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 09:35:51 PM
RAMA SET, our culture has claimed it to be so for 4500 years, which is about how far back Abraham lived. I mean, between you, me, and the fence post, if you don't believe in God, which is COMPLETELY irrational (in fact, the most rational belief would be Agnosticism), then nothing will convince you. And if you don't believe in the God of the Jews, well, then I guess you can say we're full of it. But if you are a believer in the God of the Jews (ie, if you are Christian or Muslim), you have a very hard time even justifying your existence, frankly.

I mean, to take on Christianity as an example. 1.5 billion rational persons believe that a Jewish Rabbi is God and yet they are not Jews. WHAT? That makes no sense at all, but ok.

FAPP and PIZA, anyone who can categorically deny the existence of God is completely irrational. You have no more proof that God does NOT exist than I have that he does. In fact, I have more circumstantial proof that he does. To be fair, of course, I would acknowledge that the most rational, albeit the laziest, argument to hold is Agnosticism. But Atheism is just outright a sign of stupidity. I have readily admitted that on the whole Arab-Israeli matter, I am NOT rational. So, you have won no points there.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 07, 2014, 09:44:49 PM
How are you determining a) How long Jews have been claiming a covenant and b) How long ago Abraham is purported to live?

For the record I am agnostic, but I consider the likelihood of the Abrahimic conception of god to be vanishingly small. The only conception I could buy in to is Deistic and if that is the case there is nothing in that conception that would change my life. It is just adding an idea before the Big Bang.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 07, 2014, 09:56:07 PM
I NEVER suggested that the Bible was a science book!

Yes you did:

And I would suggest, FAPP, that you have a personal problem. The Bible (The Jewish Bible) has continued to be proven correct on everything it has talked about. Archaeology has indicated so far that as far back as we can go, the Bible has been accurate.

I don't know how you can prove something accurate without looking at the predictions made and measuring them against reality. This is science. Your back-pedalling amuses me.

FAPP and PIZA, anyone who can categorically deny the existence of God is completely irrational.

Incorrect. A person that accepts the existence of some vaguely described phenomenon without any evidence to its existence is completely irrational.

You have no more proof that God does NOT exist than I have that he does.

I'm not making the claim that God does not exist. I'm making the claim that I have seen no evidence to suggest he does. A self contradictory book, complete with talking flora and fauna, does not count.

I have readily admitted that on the whole Arab-Israeli matter, I am NOT rational. So, you have won no points there.

Never get into a butt fucking contest with someone who likes getting butt fucked. Lesson learned.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 07, 2014, 10:54:39 PM
Actually, I grant I've insulted Muslims and Arabs. I have NOT insulted others on the planet. I have NOT implied anything about what other Jews think or do not think. I have insulted you, because I do think you are an idiot, yes. Other members in some cases, yes, in other cases no. Yes, anybody who dislikes Jews is by definition an anti-Semite and yes, a barbarian. what else would you call them? If I hated Black people (I don't) I would be called racist. What other word would there be for it? And yes, I do perceive my own culture as somewhat superior to others, but that is natural. Any person who DOESN"T see their own culture as superior to others is going to commit cultural suicide. That is a case of Felony Stupid.

So, for the record. I don't like Arabs, or Muslims generally. I do think Lord Dave is a fucktard. Anyone who dislikes Jews IS an anti-Semite, just as anyone who disliked Blacks would be a racist. And any rational human should prefer his own culture to that of another. To further clarify, I am an English Jew. I prefer the English and Jewish civilisations as the most civilised as of the world.

I know, I know, that is going to sound not Politically Correct. Well, tough shit. Wake up, my friends. Political Correctness is NOT one of my strong points.
You also said that without Jews, no one else would have made the scientific they did.  (Like the polio Vacccine)  That's insulting.  You've also said you disregard international law and what the UN does yet then go run to it when you defend the Jewish claim to the land now known as Israel.

Also, hating Jews for being a Jew is anti-Semite.  Hating Jews for their culture of arrogance and self entitlement is not.  It's like if you hated Muslims for wanting to tax other religions like their beliefs say.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 07, 2014, 11:37:18 PM
You have no more proof that God does NOT exist than I have that he does.
Indeed. If we did, we would be getting some sort of award for proving that informal logic as we know it is completely moot.

We do not need to categorically deny the existence of a god. We merely reject the notion, since it's unsubstantiated. Similarly, you cannot disprove my claim that I'm a millionaire, but it doesn't make you irrational to just take my word for it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 11:58:05 PM
Last I checked, I never went to the UN to defend Israel. Israel created itself by winning its War for Independence against five Arab armies. If the UN had NOT recognised it, Israel would likely have told it to go fuck itself.

The Polio vaccine was invented by a Jew. Would a non-Jew have invented it? Probably, but it would have been more years, and a lot of deaths later.

FAPP, again, I was referring to the historical aspects of the book, not the so-called scientific, which the book never claimed to be about.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence for the existence of God. Now, whether that God be the Abrahamic God, or some other, that gets us into a WHOLE different argument. I'm prepared to discuss that with you, but not in this thread. I'm not here to prove or disprove the existence of God, nor any type of God in particular.

QUOTE from Rama Set: "How are you determining a) How long Jews have been claiming a covenant and b) How long ago Abraham is purported to live?

For the record I am agnostic, but I consider the likelihood of the Abrahimic conception of god to be vanishingly small. The only conception I could buy in to is Deistic and if that is the case there is nothing in that conception that would change my life. It is just adding an idea before the Big Bang."

I am determining about how long Jews have claimed a Covenant simply from the historical fact that our People, as a People, have existed for 4500 years (more or less). The New Year as of 25 September will be 5775. Of course, the year indicates the supposed year of the world (Anno Mundi), ie, the year of Creation. Of course, that comes from a literal reading of Genesis which we don't accept any more than any other rational person today. I CAN'T prove Abraham existed. I think his existence will be proven AT SOME POINT, but it obviously can't be done now.

Any good history book will tell you about the history of the Hebrews. It starts about 4500 years ago. We are pretty much the culture with the oldest monotheistic religion on Earth. Akhenaten MAY have been earlier (I'm not sure) but his beliefs did not survive him.

So there you have it, friends. Carry on! A fine discussion! Absolutely fine! (SNIFFS AT MY CIGAR TO DETERMINE HOW GOOD IT IS).

And again, rejecting the notion of God's existence outright is illogical since you cannot prove the non-existence thereof. Perhaps we can both agree to a certain amount of illogic, since, as I indicated, the most logical, albeit intellectually laziest, argument would be Agnosticism. However, I still believe that the Atheist is more illogical than the Theist, because the Theist at least has circumstantial evidence backing him.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 08, 2014, 12:11:42 AM
I asked you how you ascertained the length of time the Jews have been claiming a covenant, and you said from a history book. That is not so much a how as a where. How is it known that the historicity of this claim is substantial? 

The Anecdotal evidence for God is terrible evidence.

There is no circumstantial evidence for God anymore than there is circumstantial evidence that God does not exist. Imposing an interpretation on circumstances, such as the precise conditions for life, is not evidence for God.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 08, 2014, 12:12:35 AM
Why is it relevant that the guy who discovered the Polio vaccine was a Jew?

And again, rejecting the notion of God's existence outright is illogical since you cannot prove the non-existence thereof. Perhaps we can both agree to a certain amount of illogic, since, as I indicated, the most logical, albeit intellectually laziest, argument would be Agnosticism. However, I still believe that the Atheist is more illogical than the Theist, because the Theist at least has circumstantial evidence backing him.

Why is Agnosticism intellectually lazy? I consider it merely scientific. Needing to rationalize your beliefs doesn't make them better, indeed quite the opposite. Agnosticism requires no sketchy, philosophical rationalization. This is a good thing.

What circumstantial evidence supports theism?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 08, 2014, 12:17:18 AM
Agnosticism is not lazy at all because unlike a faith based acceptance or a blind rejection of the supernatural, it requires an investigation in to the heart of the matter.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 08, 2014, 12:24:42 AM
FAPP, again, I was referring to the historical aspects of the book, not the so-called scientific, which the book never claimed to be about.

Nope you said "everything it talked about". The Bible talks about a lot of stuff, much of it retarded. Maybe you'd like to back-pedal some more and recognise that the Bible hasn't been proven correct on everything it talks about.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 12:43:03 AM
QUOTE: "I asked you how you ascertained the length of time the Jews have been claiming a covenant, and you said from a history book. That is not so much a how as a where. How is it known that the historicity of this claim is substantial?"

So, if you claim otherwise, then fine. I shall endeavour to find sources. Here is one: "Judaism claims a historical continuity spanning more than 3,000 years. Judaism has its roots as a structured religion in the Middle East during the Bronze Age.[14] Of the major world religions, Judaism is considered one of the oldest monotheistic religions.[15][16]" (Wikipedia)

That was the easiest to find, of course. I can probably find more if I look harder. Now that says 3000 years. Now the Bible places Abraham's existence at about 2000 BCE. That would push it back about to 4000 years. The Rabbis have always told me about 4500 years.

But lets take the smallest number. 3000 years. Fine. So for at least 3000 years, Judaism has existed in some form (as ancient Hebrew Faith, Israelitic Faith, or Judaism). The core doctrine of this Faith is the Covenant. God made one with Abraham. If you reject Abraham, fine. Then Isaac. Then Jacob. You could even reject all three.

But eventually you get to Moshe (Moses). The fact is there are archaeological indicators that a people came out of Egypt, albeit not in the numbers the Bible uses, which may be taken as symbolic. There is proof that Hebrews entered and took possession of Canaan through both military and some non-military action during the time that the Exodus and following are supposed to have occurred according to the first six books of the Bible.

Even if you reject the Patriarchs, by the time Moses comes along, you have to accept that the Hebrews developed a covenantal relationship with what they perceived as their God. Even if you don't believe in God (and that is your prerogative of course), you have to acknowledge that they did (and do), and felt (and feel) themselves to be in a special relationship with said deity. Was Moshe real? Well, I certainly believe he was. Do I have proof of that? Not personally. Is there proof? I don't know. I am not an archaeologist. I am historian, but of Renaissance British history, not the ancient history of the Levant.

So, that's that. Regarding Agnosticism, it doesn't require an investigation into anything. It merely requires saying, "I can't prove either way definitively. Therefore I shall not worship." That is rather lazy to me.

FAPP, you are as stupid as you look. If you misunderstood my meaning, I was referring to archaeology. That subject can prove or disprove historical claims. Only rarely (and very rarely at that) can it be used to prove or disprove scientific claims. So, please, for the sake of all of us present, do cease to be a fucktard, ok?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 08, 2014, 12:55:34 AM
It merely requires saying, "I can't prove either way definitively. Therefore I shall not worship." That is rather lazy to me.
Please worship Big Papa Franklin, a guy I just made up. I didn't really establish much about him yet, but I know that he is either green or large, but definitely not both. He totally exists and will be the next big religion in a few hundred years; and if you doubt it, you're lazy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:02:47 AM
As indicated, philosophical laziness in refusing to investigate the meaning and cause of existence is, in my mind, unacceptable. As a Jew, I certainly believe that there are more answers out there, although I don't claim to know what they are. I believe that all moral persons must uphold belief in one God, ultimately.

I would encourage non-Jews to investigate the Noahides. That is the best choice, in my mind, if one is not a Jew. But that is up to the individual, and I hardly think that anyone should be rewarded or penalised for their religious beliefs or lack thereof.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 08, 2014, 01:09:55 AM
and I hardly think that anyone should be rewarded or penalised for their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

Wait a minute...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:11:23 AM
Allow me to clarify. If Muslims were peaceful, and didn't like to blow shit up, I would deal them the hand of peace. I don't object to their religion, I object to their desire to make all of us follow it. So yes, I shall kill them, in pure self defence.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 08, 2014, 01:13:00 AM
You shall personally kill them?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:23:48 AM
If I am forced to pick up a weapon at some time in my life, and defend my family and loved ones, and my Faith and country, yes, I shall. I am not in the Army, US or IDF (and I am an American Jew; well, English, but I live in America, so chew on that). I don't want to kill anybody. I don't particularly like guns much, or the idea of blowing someone's head off (rather messy, that). But I shall. If the bastards come for me, and tell me I have to pay the jizya tax, I will blow their fucking brains out.

I am in no medical shape for military service. If I were, I would go to Israel now and join the IDF. But I'm 40 years old and have already had one heart attack. Trust me, if I could contribute to the defence of Israel I would. I would even go to Israel and become a settler in the West Bank. But my wife is a Lutheran. She doesn't even begin to understand this shit, let alone comprehend the idea of wanting to go into the kind of danger that would entail. What little she knows about this terrifies her already.

Why did I marry a Lutheran? Simply because I loved her. I attend a Synagogue that is a blend of Conservative and Reform. The Rabbi is transdenominational. I am probably the most Orthodox leaning in the shul. But that's the way things are. I married her in the Lutheran Church. We will have a Synagogue ceremony soon (which shows you the Rabbi is less than Orthodox).

I married because I loved her. It went beyond being a Jew. What was I supposed to do? Say no to the best thing that ever happened to me just because she's not a Jew? Even I'm not that stupid!

So there you are. Will I personally kill the bastards? Damn straight, if I have to. If they come for me, yes I will. And in the words of an ISIS defector: "First they will make a Caliphate of the Arab World. Then they will go after other countries."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 08, 2014, 01:27:07 AM
I'm sure the Israelis appreciate you trolling an internet forum in their defence. Perhaps you should spread the truth to /pol/ and /r/conspiracy, they love Jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:30:50 AM
 QUOTE: "Perhaps you should spread the truth to /pol/ and /r/conspiracy,"

I'm not sure what you're even talking about. Then again, you are an ass. And clearly a bit anti-Semitic. I've a good idea. Go fuck yourself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:38:23 AM
Yes, I do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 08, 2014, 01:41:35 AM
Hating Jews is the exact definition of anti-semitism.  Your argument is ridiculous, Dave.

Really?
I thought it was like Racism where you hate them but for no reason.

So what's the hatred of Muslims?  Or are Jews special?

How do I hate the Jewish culture of being an asshole without being anti-semite?  Is that even possible?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 08, 2014, 01:45:38 AM
Hating Jews is the exact definition of anti-semitism.  Your argument is ridiculous, Dave.

Really?
I thought it was like Racism where you hate them but for no reason.

So what's the hatred of Muslims?  Or are Jews special?

Of course Jews are special. It takes a certain type of mental state to condemn 1.6 billion people to death.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 08, 2014, 01:53:08 AM
There is no Jewish culture of being an asshole.  There are assholes in every ethnicity.
Yes but yaakov is showing me that Jewish culture is about believing yourself superior in almost every way.  If he is the standard for Jewish culture, doesn't that make it a culture of assholes? 

I mean, sure, every culture has them but I don't know of any culture that tries to.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:55:20 AM
QUOTE: "Really? I thought it was like Racism where you hate them but for no reason. So what's the hatred of Muslims?  Or are Jews special? How do I hate the Jewish culture of being an asshole without being anti-semite?  Is that even possible?"

LORD DAVE, much as I don't like you, your questions are legitimate. Judaism is the Civilisation of the Jewish People. It is more than just the religion, although that is probably its single largest element. But Jews are the only People in the world who practice it. If one converts to Judaism, that means one is joining a Civilisation. I would encourage you to read Mordecai M. Kaplan's seminal book on the subject "Judaism as a Civilization" for more on that. The reason hatred of Jews for any reason is classified as anti-Semitism is because Jews are the only people who practice Judaism.

Islam is different. Hating Muslims can be classified as a religious prejudice. 23% of all Muslims in the world are Arabs. The rest of them are something else. One can easily become Muslim without being Arab. Although Muslims do refer to themselves as the Muslim Ummah (the Muslim Nation), they are not so regarded by non-Muslims, I suspect because there are so many of them that their cultures have remained quite divergent. Jews are a much smaller number, so most of us have similar cultures, albeit with considerable variation (Ashkenazi vs Sephardi, and even further with the Ethiopic Jews, and so-forth).

However, Jews EVERYWHERE, no matter how far apart their culture, have markers in their DNA that indicate they are Jews. I have DNA that I share with other Jews that I don't share with you. And the Cohanim have DNA that they share with each other that they don't even share with other Jews, as do the Levites. So we are an ethnoreligious group. The Muslims are not. THAT is the difference.

I'm not going to say that the hatred between Jews and Muslims is any nicer because one is religious and the other is ethnoreligious. And in the Middle East, it is more ethnoreligious anyway, since the problem is specifically Arab vs Jew (as Arab Christians don't always like us either, although some do).

But that is your answer, if it helps.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:57:50 AM
QUOTE: "Of course Jews are special. It takes a certain type of mental state to condemn 1.6 billion people to death."

You are as stupid as you look. I don't condemn them to death. If they dealt the hand of peace I would deal it back in a heartbeat. It is the fact that they want to make me a Muslim, make me pay a tax, or kill me that makes me want to fight them. Don't you fucking read?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 02:22:46 AM
QUOTE: "Yes but yaakov is showing me that Jewish culture is about believing yourself superior in almost every way.  If he is the standard for Jewish culture, doesn't that make it a culture of assholes? I mean, sure, every culture has them but I don't know of any culture that tries to."

Do keep in mind that my views on this particular subject (the Arab-Israeli Conflict) are particularly strident, even for a Jew. Most Jews find the problem distasteful, and would prefer it not exist, but the methods of solving it are various. Many still believe in the Two-State Solution. I did once myself, when I was young and idealistic.

I think the majority of Jews don't know how to deal with it. Even I don't advocate wiping them out. I'm not a Nazi, much as you might prefer to think otherwise. My solution is, as I have said many times, population transfer. A removal of all Arabs from Greater Israel (with the possible exception of those who would take a specific oath of allegiance to the Israeli State) to the Arab country of their choice, with six months living wage for them and their families, and eminent domain for any property they may lose.

As far as the Muslim World is concerned, and how the West (including Israel) must deal with it, we must contain it. Organisations like ISIS must be destroyed without mercy. Total war must be fought against them and anyone supporting them anywhere in the world. Boko Haram, Al Quaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc must be forced to learn that they cannot pull their shit without being completely eliminated. After that has been done, the Muslim World must be given a choice. Either coexist with the West under civilised terms, or be contained to their own part of the world and not be allowed out of it. And lets face it: I think most of them will agree. They are NOT stupid. They know how to see a deal when they've got one.

So no, I don't want to kill every one I see. I have never said that. I admit, I get a little itchy when my dander gets up, but lets reason together and be rational people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 02:27:17 AM
SADDAM, I saw that a long time ago. I never said my views on that subject were standard. They are a bit strident, even for Jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 02:31:45 AM
LORD DAVE, as far as being superior to others, I didn't suggest that either. What I did suggest, and perhaps I did so badly, is that the civilisation of Judaism has given rise to all of Western Civilsiation that you are a part of. Would Western Civilsation still exist without it? Yes. That is Obvious. But it would be completely unrecognisable compared to what it now is. You may prefer that it be that way, I don't know. But I submit to you that we live in the best of all possible worlds. That is a philosophical claim with which you may disagree, and that is your right, but it is the claim I am making.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 08, 2014, 02:38:15 AM
But I submit to you that we live in the best of all possible worlds.

Really? You can't think of anything at all that could possibly be improved upon?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 08, 2014, 06:03:19 AM
QUOTE: "Of course Jews are special. It takes a certain type of mental state to condemn 1.6 billion people to death."

You are as stupid as you look. I don't condemn them to death. If they dealt the hand of peace I would deal it back in a heartbeat. It is the fact that they want to make me a Muslim, make me pay a tax, or kill me that makes me want to fight them. Don't you fucking read?
Converting to Islam might actually make people like Jews more. Overnight the Israel problem would be gone.

Looks like ISIS are on to something here..
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 10:34:31 AM
VINDICTUS, again, you're a schmuck. ALEX, of course I can. But each improvement entails a weakening in some other aspect of life. Something has to give. I mean, yes, life does need improvement. But when you take it all in all, it is as best as it can be without messing things up even more.

VINDICTUS,  were you born this stupid, or did you take a class to get that way? Get over it, man! Israel is here to stay. Just because you are one of the haters doesn't matter, Dude. All it does is make you look like a dumbass. Not that you don't ALREADY look like one, at least in the picture provided, but this just confirms that you are indeed as stupid as you look. Israel isn't going anywhere, and despite your girly-man attempts to give into the Muslims, does not give up the way you obviously do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 11:44:13 AM
Well, folks, Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) just sealed the deal to permanent conflict. He has said he would recognise Israel, but NOT as a Jewish state. Of course, Israel will never accept peace under those terms. So the "Palestinians" get their state, but Jews do not get theirs? That's an interesting thought. So, because of a decision just made by the "unity government", any peace between "Palestinians" and Israel is now a dead letter. Israel is many things, but they aren't stupid. They aren't going to commit political suicide by allowing a "Right of Return" of "Palestinians" to Israel proper. That might be allowed to a "Palestinian" state, but not to Israel within the Green Line.

Well, now you know who to blame when you ask why there is no peace between Israel and the "Palestinians". Israel is more than happy to recognise a "Palestinian" state (which I think is unwise, but ok, fine). It is those same "Palestinians" who won't return the favour. So now you know who to blame.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 08, 2014, 04:33:54 PM
If he is the standard for Jewish culture

I have detected the flaw in your argument.
I wish I could agree but so far those who follow Jewish culture over their native country's culture seem to be very similar to Yaakov here. Kiryas Joe here in New York being a fine example as is Israel.

Also, why is it so bad for Israel to not be a Jewish state?  Don't want a dirty Muslim or Christian to become PM?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 07:45:26 PM
Kiryas Joel is a bit weird by ANYONE'S standards, even Israel's, and, as radical as you mistakenly perceive me to be, even me. And in Israel, Jewish culture IS the native country's culture. And my next question would be this: Would Saudi Arabia want a Jewish King? Jews have ONE nation, and a small one at that, to call theirs. We intend to keep it, even if 2/3 of us don't live there. Its nice to know we can. I'm certainly not giving the country to the Arabs, who would destroy it, just as they did Gaza, and every other part of the world they're in charge of.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 08, 2014, 10:50:39 PM
FAPP, you are as stupid as you look.

You don't know what I look like. Your move Kasparov.

If you misunderstood my meaning, I was referring to archaeology.

My mistake. When you said everything I thought you meant everything. Silly me. Next time I'll know that when you say stuff you probably won't mean the stuff you're saying and so I won't point out the withdrawal of Napoleonic magnitude lest you rightly call me a fucktard.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 11:04:35 PM
I'll bet you're a good golfer. Go practice on your putz.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 08, 2014, 11:10:22 PM
I'll bet you're a good golfer. Go practice on your putz.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Bob_hope_lackland_afb.jpg)

Ladies and Gentlemen. Mr Bob Hope.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 11:52:55 PM
You evidently missed what I said. Well, I shall leave you to get a good Yiddish-English dictionary.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 09, 2014, 01:16:32 AM
You evidently missed what I said. Well, I shall leave you to get a good Yiddish-English dictionary.

You evidently missed that fapp got what you said and that his answer was the picture.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 01:31:37 AM
The answer makes no sense. I still think he needs to practice on his putz. Maybe Bob Hope needs to practice on his, too. But Mr. Hope was not a Jew. What is his point? I still think he needs to work on his Yiddish.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 09, 2014, 02:37:40 AM
What does great YHWH think about one of your favorite past times? Cursing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 02:42:54 AM
Given that I choose to do it in English, Yiddish, or Spanish, and not in L'shan HaKodesh (the Holy Tongue; ie, Hebrew), I suspect God is probably a bit more concerned with other, shall we say, more pressing matters (you know, revolutions, civil wars, starvation, minor things like that).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 02:44:27 AM
Don't forget invasion of the Gaza strip.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 02:45:55 AM
Since that was justified, I'm not worried about it. They launched rockets. Personally, I'd have carpet-bombed the shit-hole out of existence.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 02:49:11 AM
Your God likely doesn't smile on the murder of innocents. No one cares what you think.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 02:52:08 AM
In fact, since 68 Jews were killed, 6800 "Palestinians" should have been killed. In addition to the ones dying in combat, male adult prisoners from the prison population should have been executed. 100 for every 1. And Israel apparently doesn't give a rat's ass what an anti-semite like you thinks.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 02:55:45 AM
Israel doesn't matter. But a divine being capable of eternally punishing you does. Think carefully about which one you would like to please.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 09, 2014, 02:56:41 AM
So you pick and choose what rules to follow, Yaakov?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 03:01:43 AM
Given how the Divinity handled Amalek, and reminded us NEVER to forget him, and to wipe him from the Earth at all costs, and given that "Palestinians" are descended from Amalekites, my solution of deportation is far more gentle than they actually deserve.  In fact, I often worry that God might punish me for my gentleness. But I can't bring myself to annihilate all of them if they submit to being deported. I am even willing to give them 6 months wages for them and their family and eminent domain for property lost.

So, look up the word "Amalekite". And "Amalek". Then you will see what I mean. Until then, shut your cake-hole.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 03:04:22 AM
If God didn't want them here, he'd remove them. Checkmate, buddy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 03:06:28 AM
You are obviously a poor chess player. God helps those who help themselves. If what you said were true, the Hebrews would never have had to fight to get into the Holy Land way back in Joshua's time! EPIC FAIL!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 04:00:40 AM
Well, despite the poor attempt at checkmate, nevertheless, the conversation is still a fine one! Absolutely fine! Well played. I must close and be off for the night, but do fire away, lads! I look forward to morning!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 04:09:20 AM
Maybe it's a sign that not even God wants the Jews in the middle east.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 11:16:18 AM
Wow. You really aren't doing yourself any favours. God gave us the Land. He never said it would be easy. But some schmuck like you coming along and saying that God doesn't want us there after we are there is like saying the sky isn't blue. It merely implies that you are a fucktard. I mean, I knew that already, but you are rendering it more and more obvious.

The Ingathering of the Jews has started. It will continue, in spite of anti-Semites like you and your refusal to admit that fact. And, read Zechariah 8:23.  You might find it enlightening.

"The LORD of Hosts says this: "In those days, 10 men from nations of every language will grab the robe of a Jewish man tightly, urging: Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."  HCSB.

Now this verse refers specifically to the fringes that Religious Jewish men wear on the corner of their garments (I wear them myself).This is a reminder to all of commandments that we must follow.  And in the end of Ages, when men do not know where to look, they will turn their eyes to us, for we are with God, moreso than any other People Group.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 11:20:17 AM
He obviously didn't give you the land when you have to cut bloody swathes of it from other countries.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 12:49:47 PM
Man, you are as stupid as you look. He has us do that to punish them for being so wicked. Have you ever even READ the first six books of the Old Testament?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 09, 2014, 01:29:30 PM
Given how the Divinity handled Amalek, and reminded us NEVER to forget him, and to wipe him from the Earth at all costs, and given that "Palestinians" are descended from Amalekites, my solution of deportation is far more gentle than they actually deserve.  In fact, I often worry that God might punish me for my gentleness. But I can't bring myself to annihilate all of them if they submit to being deported. I am even willing to give them 6 months wages for them and their family and eminent domain for property lost.

So, look up the word "Amalekite". And "Amalek". Then you will see what I mean. Until then, shut your cake-hole.

So I guess God ain't so ethical after all. He really is an angry God who promotes genocide.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 09, 2014, 01:45:10 PM
So I guess God ain't so ethical after all. He really is an angry God who promotes genocide.
No, it's just that the killing of the wicked is ethical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMbLI81QXFk
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 02:07:37 PM
Well, certainly of the Amalekites when they were identifiable as such. Now that they no longer ARE identifiable as such, the question is debatable. The origin of the "Palestinians" themselves is questionable. When I called them descendants of Amalek, I did so for the sake of argument. They themselves often try to say that they are indigenous to "Palestine". IF they were, that would make them Amalekites, yes.

My own personal belief, and what most scholars, Jewish and otherwise say, is that they are Arabs. That they arrived in Holy Land after the year 632 CE with the invading armies from Arabia and took up residence there. Which means that they shouldn't be "genocided" (to coin a new word) out of existence (which is rather brutal) but simply removed and put where they belong, with other Arabs. But if they insist on calling themselves "natives", then yes, treat them as Amalekites and deal with them accordingly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 09, 2014, 02:26:44 PM
I'd say that 1,400 years of living there gives them a strong claim to being natives.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 02:49:13 PM
And I'd say that 4500 years of living there gives the Jews a stronger claim.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 09, 2014, 03:09:58 PM
The origin of the "Palestinians" themselves is questionable.
Even if that's true, it doesn't matter. No one cares how they got where they are. The problem here is that they exist, and you're not letting them live in peace in their homes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 09, 2014, 04:30:26 PM
Well, certainly of the Amalekites when they were identifiable as such. Now that they no longer ARE identifiable as such, the question is debatable. The origin of the "Palestinians" themselves is questionable. When I called them descendants of Amalek, I did so for the sake of argument. They themselves often try to say that they are indigenous to "Palestine". IF they were, that would make them Amalekites, yes.

My own personal belief, and what most scholars, Jewish and otherwise say, is that they are Arabs. That they arrived in Holy Land after the year 632 CE with the invading armies from Arabia and took up residence there. Which means that they shouldn't be "genocided" (to coin a new word) out of existence (which is rather brutal) but simply removed and put where they belong, with other Arabs. But if they insist on calling themselves "natives", then yes, treat them as Amalekites and deal with them accordingly.

You understand how deranged it is to approve of the genocide of any ethnic or religious group yes?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 09, 2014, 05:05:17 PM
Jews are literally nazis
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 07:43:02 PM
Man, you are as stupid as you look. He has us do that to punish them for being so wicked. Have you ever even READ the first six books of the Old Testament?

That's stupid. Why would an omnipotent being want us flawed creatures to painfully kill thousands of other humans? He can just snap them out of existence if He wanted. Your old testament is written by morons and followed by them too.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 09, 2014, 09:30:23 PM
I suspect God

Wait. Didn't you used to type "g-d" because you were paranoid about God reading this forum and getting angry that you wrote his name.

Times have changed man. I remember when you used to fear God.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 09:58:24 PM
He thinks Israel is God, and they're busy wiping out the innocent Palestinians. So he doesn't need to worry.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 10, 2014, 02:13:39 AM
But I submit to you that we live in the best of all possible worlds.
The optimist thinks that we live in the best of worlds.  The pessimist is afraid that it's true.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 04:10:15 AM
I've got about five minutes to reply to all of you. VERY busy day.

QUOTE: "Even if that's true, it doesn't matter. No one cares how they got where they are. The problem here is that they exist, and you're not letting them live in peace in their homes."

Population transfer, while not pleasant, has often been used to resolve diplomatic issues. The Sudeten Germans after WWII. Many Muslims in India, and Hindus in Pakistan in 1947 ring a bell right now.

QUOTE: "You understand how deranged it is to approve of the genocide of any ethnic or religious group yes?"

I'm inclined to agree, which is probably why the Amalekites are no longer identifiable, thus rendering the commandment null.

QUOTE: "Jews are literally nazis."

Godwin's Law. You lose.

QUOTE: "Wait. Didn't you used to type "g-d" because you were paranoid about God reading this forum and getting angry that you wrote his name. Times have changed man. I remember when you used to fear God."

Actually, no, I have never held to that radically Orthodox approach, although when quoting something, I have generally not changed it if that is how it is written. I would recommend reading a little closer.

QUOTE: "He thinks Israel is God, and they're busy wiping out the innocent Palestinians. So he doesn't need to worry."

That's just a stupid thing to say, but then, we've already determined that you ARE as stupid as you look.

QUOTE: "The optimist thinks that we live in the best of worlds.  The pessimist is afraid that it's true."

I am neither. I simply acknowledge the world as it is, without placing a value judgment on it. It is neither good nor bad that we live in the best of all possible worlds. It is what it is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 10, 2014, 05:09:51 AM
Godwin's law isn't a logical fallacy. That's like saying "Universal gravitational constant! You lose".

Quote
That's just a stupid thing to say, but then, we've already determined that you ARE as stupid as you look.

At least we agree that wiping out innocent Palestinians is very stupid.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 05:15:21 AM
Population transfer, while not pleasant, has often been used to resolve diplomatic issues. The Sudeten Germans after WWII. Many Muslims in India, and Hindus in Pakistan in 1947 ring a bell right now.

That seems to have worked out swimmingly for India and Pakistan.  No sectarian violence between those countires right?

Quote
QUOTE: "You understand how deranged it is to approve of the genocide of any ethnic or religious group yes?"

I'm inclined to agree, which is probably why the Amalekites are no longer identifiable, thus rendering the commandment null.

And yet, you would carry out the commandment if you identified and Amalekite.  You don't see a quandary here do you?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 10, 2014, 06:07:33 AM
Yaakov always says he has time restrictions but manages to post often. He must be on Jew time.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 10, 2014, 10:25:21 AM
It occurred to me a few nights ago as I played candy crush that the Jews seem to be behaving in a way to compensate for something.  Then his comment of .2% of the population clicked:
Jews are trying to compensate for a failing culture and religion.

Of the major religions in the world, jeudaism is second to last only by Ba'al.  The Jewish population, while not in decline, isn't even keeping up with population growth.  Statistics aren't easy to come by but their low populatiin tells me they have a very low conversion rate.

Based on this, I feel their religion is failing and they compensate by trying to seem more important than they are.


Also, if they were God's chosen people, God gave them a crappy piece of land.  North America or even France would have been much better.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 10, 2014, 10:28:14 AM
Yeah, who wants to live in a desert anyway?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 11:46:27 AM
QUOTE:"Godwin's law isn't a logical fallacy. That's like saying "Universal gravitational constant! You lose".

Not quite. But it is widely recognised as a law that you cannot easily break without losing an argument. So, again, Godwin's Law. You lose.

QUOTE:"That seems to have worked out swimmingly for India and Pakistan.  No sectarian violence between those countires right?"

The only reason sectarian violence exists is because of the failure to remove ALL of the Muslims from India.

QUOTE: "It occurred to me a few nights ago as I played candy crush that the Jews seem to be behaving in a way to compensate for something.  Then his comment of .2% of the population clicked: Jews are trying to compensate for a failing culture and religion.
Of the major religions in the world, jeudaism is second to last only by Ba'al.  The Jewish population, while not in decline, isn't even keeping up with population growth.  Statistics aren't easy to come by but their low populatiin tells me they have a very low conversion rate. Based on this, I feel their religion is failing and they compensate by trying to seem more important than they are.
Also, if they were God's chosen people, God gave them a crappy piece of land.  North America or even France would have been much better."

Well, one, we don't want a high conversion rate. Two, .2% of the population is not unusual for a small nation. Imagine being a Rohingya, which nation is small enough to NOT have its own nation, but to be ruled (rather badly) by Myanmar. Or how about a tiny tribe of naked Natives in the Venezuelan rain forest?

What you consider crappy is classified as pretty choice by large numbers of people. Israel, with proper irrigation, has some of the richest farmland in the world.Everything from dates and nuts to oranges and other fruits is produced exported from the Land. Granted, a weakness is the supply of water, but that IS and has ALWAYS BEEN a perennial problem that will hopefully be resolved evolved eventually. You obviously have little knowledge about that which you speak.


QUOTE: "And yet, you would carry out the commandment if you identified and Amalekite.  You don't see a quandary here do you?"

Not at all. During the day when biblical law was interpreted more strictly, nobody, neither the Hebrews, nor their enemies were inclined to be gentle about the way they fought. So if Amalek were tring to kill off the Hebrews, then it was only appropriate that the Hebrews should return the favour. It is our modern age that seems to consider that inappropriate, probably do to the rise of weapons of mass destructive power. Even on a personal level, the damage you can do with a broadsword vs what you can do with a submachine gun is clearly much less.

Would I carry out the commandment to eliminate Amalek if I found it? I'm not so sure. Since the Bible indicates that they are from the Holy Land, the only other choice would be to deport them. And again, the most likely candidate for being them if they do still exist is the "Palestinians". But that does seem to fly in the face of logic, which show the "Palestinians" to be Arab, despite their claims of being descended from pretty much everybody who ever resided in the Holy Land!

To be honest, I think God knew what he was doing  I suspect he knew that a time would come when people would no longer wish to murder their neighbour's family because of his ethnic or religious ties, so, up to a certain point, he allowed for that, but once human values changed he found a way to render the commandment null.



Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spanner34.5 on September 10, 2014, 12:55:01 PM
It seems from earlier posts, you support the genital mutilation of Jewish male children.

Does his extend to female infant genital mutilation?

Do you recommend that we all mutilate the genitals of our children?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:04:08 PM
Male circumcision is not mutilation and never has been. It is widely done in the the USA by non-Jews simply as a health measure, to aid in the cleaning of the penis.

There has never been any practice of female cutting of any sort by Jews.

On a male, the pain, if any, is very brief.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 10, 2014, 01:04:45 PM
If you echo the Nazis so precisely (this isn't saying Israel does or doesn't) then Godwin's law is fucking stupid, as you ARE echoing the Nazis and to not learn from history is the height of idiocy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:08:27 PM
Since I am NOT advocating genocide, but population transfer, a very different thing, which would involve no deaths, Godwin's Law applies quite well here.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on September 10, 2014, 01:14:05 PM
My girl friend loves my uncircumsised penis.  Why do people do that?  It is barbaric and unnatarul.  Are you from the stone age, Yaakov? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:16:48 PM
I REALLY could have done without knowing what your GF likes or does not like, friend. In Iowa, we call that TMI. Like I said, the Stone Age has nothing to do with it. Actually, the practice started in about the Bronze Age, although today it is carried on by Jews and Muslims for religious reasons and by many Americans for health reasons.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 10, 2014, 01:19:36 PM
I myself am actually notJewish.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:22:10 PM
Well, good for you. Greetings! I suspect we agree on practically nothing, however. In fact, I suspect you're not religious. Your choice. Even if you were, we probably STILL wouldn't agree on much. That is ALSO ok. Put four Jews in a room, get five opinions. Happens all the time. Doesn't bother me any.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 10, 2014, 01:27:49 PM
Since I am NOT advocating genocide, but population transfer, a very different thing, which would involve no deaths, Godwin's Law applies quite well here.

Right, genocide is just your backup plan if the transfer doesn't work.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:29:28 PM
No, I wouldn't do that. I would go to forced transfer, at that point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spanner34.5 on September 10, 2014, 01:31:22 PM
Male circumcision is not mutilation and never has been. It is widely done in the the USA by non-Jews simply as a health measure, to aid in the cleaning of the penis.

There has never been any practice of female cutting of any sort by Jews.

On a male, the pain, if any, is very brief.
It appears that your definition of mutilation disagrees with mine.

It also appears that your definition of mutilation disagrees with dictionaries.
QUOTE
Some ethnic groups practice ritual mutilation, e.g. circumcision, scarification, burning, flagellation, tattooing, or wheeling, as part of a rite of passage. In some cases, the term may apply to treatment of dead bodies, such as soldiers mutilated after they have been killed by an enemy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:37:51 PM
Since your dictionary was presumably written without any input from Jews, it reflects a non-Jewish, possibly even slightly anti-Semitic, approach to the English language. I am sure if you looked up the Hebrew word "bris" in a Hebrew dictionary, it would not describe the term as a "mutilation". So it is all in how you perceive words. I'm not going to worry my head about what you, or your dictionary says, to be bluntly honest with you. I have better things to do with my time.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spanner34.5 on September 10, 2014, 01:52:29 PM
Or, myself and the dictionary could be anti mutilation of children.

It is time that people of any religion admitted that their religion is not perfect.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:54:38 PM
Like I said, it depends on the dictionary. Gotta run for now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 02:15:19 PM
Like I said, it depends on the dictionary. Gotta run for now.

Is this the sort of academic standard you hold yourself to?  If so, did you already eat the gum that your diploma was wrapping or can I have it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 02:59:04 PM
QUOTE: "Is this the sort of academic standard you hold yourself to?  If so, did you already eat the gum that your diploma was wrapping or can I have it?"

Well, ask yourself. What would it say in a Hebrew dictionary (I mean a standard issue one, printed by say, Barron's, or what-have-you) under the word "bris"? In what dictionary in English does male circumcision get defined as mutilation? Oxford? Merriam-Webster? What edition? How much Political Correctness went into writing said dictionary? How much possible anti-Semitism is there in the dictionary? These are all valid questions to ask, and a failure to ask them is a failure to engage yourself academically with the question. I realise that Americans (most of them) tend to be idiots who accept whatever they are spoon-fed by CNN and MSNBC, of course (except for the wild Tea Party Right who go for Faux News). That is why you never hear REAL news in this country.

As regards the way the English language is spoken in this country, I have no respect for it. When someone says something so stupid as "The university alums were happy", they should be arrested. The correct word is of course, "alumni". But, God forbid we should use the language correctly.

Another example. " And now I introduce the Chair of our department." The proper word would be, of course, "Chairman", or maybe "Chairwoman". What kind of an idiot wants to reduce the head of a department to a piece of furniture? Again, PC bullshit.

Or the idiots in our lovely gossip magazines who use words like "vaycay" and other words of that nature that should be declared illegal under penalty of being fined. For once I actually agree with the French, who have a language police.

So when people start manipulating language to meet their political needs, I tend to simply pass them off as fucking retarded. Its that simple.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 03:11:19 PM
First off, apologies, I thought your dictionary comment was referring to multiple definitions of the word "true".

As to the "bastardization" of English I daresay that the flexibility it employs and has always employed is what allowed it to become so prevalent. It is hard to master, but can also communicate simple ideas very easily. It is the ultimate tool in cultural warfare, which I am sure you can appreciate, given your field of interest.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 03:20:55 PM
I certainly do appreciate that English has been, and still is used for cultural warfare. I simply despise the bastardisation of any language. I speak two, and have some familiarity with a third, although I admit, that last was a LONG time ago. And of course Hebrew, at least for prayer.

I just hate to see people deliberately destroy English either through 1, laziness, or 2, deliberate political attempts to fuck with it. In the first case they need to be educated how to behave. In the second case they need to be cited and fined as they would be in France. I actually do agree with the idea of having Language Police (I don't know that they are called that per se). The Government in France actually enforces laws in  France such that if a merchant has a sign on his window that is written in garbled French, or bastardised French, they can be cited and fined for it. I am all in favour of that.

Apologies accepted, thank you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 05:02:51 PM
But if you were that stringent with English you may never have had someone like Shakespeare.  Besides, it sounds like too strong a limit on freedom of expression.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 05:31:29 PM
Its one thing to allow poetic license. Its another thing entirely to allow laziness of political agenda. And freedom of expression should not trump the language being maintained in dignity and respect. Say whatever you want, but say it in a manner that wouldn't make your English teacher vomit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 06:21:33 PM
Its one thing to allow poetic license. Its another thing entirely to allow laziness of political agenda. And freedom of expression should not trump the language being maintained in dignity and respect. Say whatever you want, but say it in a manner that wouldn't make your English teacher vomit.

What sort of punishment do you propose for those who violate the sanctity of the English language?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 06:40:39 PM
The same they use in France. Fining.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 07:05:03 PM
The same they use in France. Fining.

what law are you referring to.  I can't find anything on this.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 07:40:16 PM
France has laws in place that forbid the bastardisation of the language, particularly the use of Anglicised French on signage in public.  If such signage is found, the merchant in question can be cited and fined. The use of foreign languages on signage, in music, websites, etc, is also severely limited.

See the Toubon Law.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 10, 2014, 08:17:11 PM
We need similar laws for racist Jews on the internet.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 08:35:27 PM
France has laws in place that forbid the bastardisation of the language, particularly the use of Anglicised French on signage in public.  If such signage is found, the merchant in question can be cited and fined. The use of foreign languages on signage, in music, websites, etc, is also severely limited.

See the Toubon Law.

The Toubon Law only mandates the use of French in all government, commercial and public communications.  There is nothing I can see that speaks to the quality of French to be used.

http://www.humanities360.com/index.php/toubon-law-and-the-languages-of-france-1649/
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 10, 2014, 09:49:07 PM
Haven't we learned everything this tard has to teach?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 09:59:49 PM
QUOTE: "We need similar laws for racist Jews on the internet." Since Jews are not a race, the comment itself is stupid, but then, you are as stupid as you look.

In regard to the Toubon Law, it also applies to the bastardisation of French. I will attempt to find some information on that for you (and for me). I had read it it a few months ago, but I'm darned if I remember where.

FAPP, you are the fucktard here, not me. Grow up.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 10, 2014, 10:01:59 PM
As to the "bastardization" of English I daresay that the flexibility it employs and has always employed is what allowed it to become so prevalent.
Uh, no. English is actually a relatively poor language as long as flexibility and communicative power goes. The British Empire is what allowed English to become prevalent:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/The_British_Empire.png/640px-The_British_Empire.png)

Compare with the modern Anglosphere:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Anglospeak.svg/640px-Anglospeak.svg.png)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 10:11:04 PM
PIZAA, that is a dumb thing to say. English is the second most widely spoken language on Earth today, after Mandarin. And Mandarin is spoken largely as an official language in countries in Asia. English is spoken as an official language in countries all over the world.

There were two reasons for the spread of English. 1, was indeed the spread of the British Empire. But the second reason was the fact that English assimilated so many words from so many different languages and continues to do so now. English to this day contains the largest vocabulary of pretty much any language in existence. Denying this is plain stupid.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 10:38:21 PM
It appears I mistook France for Quebec. The Charter of the French Language not only guarantees that French shall be the official language of Quebec, but even goes so far as to suggest that French has to be written larger than English (or other languages) on signage, and that if possible, French should be to the left of other languages on signage, and that words from other languages like names be conformed to French grammar (see the following quote in which the language authorities actually did NOT get their way, oddly enough, but I am guessing that what I read a few months back was a time when they did).

QUOTE: "Levying fines of up to $7000 per offence, Charter enforcers were widely labelled in the English media as the "language police" or "tongue troopers". While the Office québécois de la langue française (OQLF) provides several warnings[citation needed] before resorting to legal sanctions, allegations that it has abused its powers has led to charges of racism and harassment.[29] The OQLF took action against stores retailing imported kosher goods that did not meet its labelling requirements, an action perceived in the Jewish community as an unfair targeting that coincided with a high-profile case against the well-known Schwartz's delicatessen, the owner of which was subjected to failed legal action by the OQLF due to the apostrophe in his sign, which remains.[30] In 2002, there were reported cases of harassment of allophone merchants who refused to speak French.[31]" {Wikipedia}

And no, I did not choose the quote because it pertained to a Jew. That was incidental.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 10:56:11 PM
But they are not particularly safeguarding against bastardization so much as ensuring French's prevalence. Indeed, anyone in Quebec who has heard uttered "le weekend" knows that Québécois french can be just as mutt-like as English.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 11:00:29 PM
Yes, you can say what you like, but try writing it on a sign.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 10, 2014, 11:08:56 PM
FAPP, you are the fucktard here, not me. Grow up.

Is that Yiddish. I am keen to know more about Jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 10, 2014, 11:28:19 PM
Well, one, we don't want a high conversion rate.
Well that seems silly.  What, don't want to save people or something?

Quote
Two, .2% of the population is not unusual for a small nation. Imagine being a Rohingya, which nation is small enough to NOT have its own nation, but to be ruled (rather badly) by Myanmar. Or how about a tiny tribe of naked Natives in the Venezuelan rain forest?
Umm.... what small nation?  That's THE WHOLE WORLD!  0.2% of the WORLD POPULATION is Jewish, in and out of Israel. 

Quote
What you consider crappy is classified as pretty choice by large numbers of people. Israel, with proper irrigation, has some of the richest farmland in the world.Everything from dates and nuts to oranges and other fruits is produced exported from the Land. Granted, a weakness is the supply of water, but that IS and has ALWAYS BEEN a perennial problem that will hopefully be resolved evolved eventually. You obviously have little knowledge about that which you speak.
It really isn't.
http://wcfcourier.com/business/local/nation-s-richest-farmland-soil-touted-by-illinois-iowans-object/article_c3c72757-9e8e-53d1-b2ec-a73bb915bf8e.html
http://www.eoearth.org/view/article/152375/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Israel

Quote
Only 20% of the land area is naturally arable.

Israel has also invested a lot in agricultural technology meaning the land isn't very good for farming without technology.  Thanks God.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 11:36:46 PM
QUOTE: "Well, one, we don't want a high conversion rate."
 
"Well that seems silly.  What, don't want to save people or something?"

Judaism has NEVER claimed that one needs to saved from anything. Judaism is the civilisation of the Jewish People. Aside from people born Jewish, and those few called to join us as Jews by Choice, we have little interest in making other Jews out of non-Jews. Why would we. That would be like the theoretical tribe in Venezuela wanting to make more little tribal members out of non-tribal members. What would be the point?

I never said that Israel didn't take a lot of work to make it arable. It certainly does. It is, after all, a desert. Although the environment during the Bronze Age was likely wetter and more amenable to farming. Hence the designation "The Land of Milk and Honey". But once you put the work into it, you get some pretty damn good results, and the Kibbutzim and the Moshavim have borne this out.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 10, 2014, 11:37:02 PM
Well, one, we don't want a high conversion rate.
Well that seems silly.  What, don't want to save people or something?

Yahweh prefers a small, dedicated group to... well, basically what Christianity has become. He doesn't want millions of people identifying as his people and not actually caring. In fact, I'm of the impression that there are passages in the Bible where he straight up murders his own congregations because they got too large.
_______

Judaism: where if bad things happen to you and you're not Jewish, they happened because you're not jewish. If bad things happen to you and your jewish, you're not a good enough jew. If bad things happen to you and you're a good jew, too bad.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 10, 2014, 11:37:41 PM
Is there any truth to the claim that the world is run by a bunch of evil Zionists?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 10, 2014, 11:39:16 PM
Is there any truth to the claim that the world is run by a bunch of evil Zionists?

If there wasn't any truth to it people wouldn't say it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 11:47:33 PM
QUOTE: "Is there any truth to the claim that the world is run by a bunch of evil Zionists?"

Do refer to "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" for a clever forgery of a book that supposedly laid out the plan for Jews to take over the world. The book was actually composed by the Okhrana, the Czarist Secret Police, toward the end of the 19th Century. That is where that got started, though.

QUOTE: "Judaism: where if bad things happen to you and you're not Jewish, they happened because you're not jewish. If bad things happen to you and your jewish, you're not a good enough jew. If bad things happen to you and you're a good jew, too bad."

None of which are true, but ok.

QUOTE: "Yahweh prefers a small, dedicated group to... well, basically what Christianity has become. He doesn't want millions of people identifying as his people and not actually caring."

This gets us into the whole "Chosen People" business, which is misunderstood by Jews and non-Jews alike.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 11, 2014, 01:00:43 AM
QUOTE: "Well, one, we don't want a high conversion rate."
 
"Well that seems silly.  What, don't want to save people or something?"

Judaism has NEVER claimed that one needs to saved from anything. Judaism is the civilisation of the Jewish People. Aside from people born Jewish, and those few called to join us as Jews by Choice, we have little interest in making other Jews out of non-Jews. Why would we. That would be like the theoretical tribe in Venezuela wanting to make more little tribal members out of non-tribal members. What would be the point?
Power?
Also, so Judaism isn't a religion?

Quote
I never said that Israel didn't take a lot of work to make it arable. It certainly does. It is, after all, a desert. Although the environment during the Bronze Age was likely wetter and more amenable to farming. Hence the designation "The Land of Milk and Honey". But once you put the work into it, you get some pretty damn good results, and the Kibbutzim and the Moshavim have borne this out.
So God gave your people a desert and said "Have fun with that?"  I honestly think God hates Jewish people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 11, 2014, 01:08:06 AM
QUOTE: "Power? Also, so Judaism isn't a religion?"

Judaism is the Civilisation of the Jewish People. Religion is perhaps its single largest component, but it is more than just religion. It is the religion, customs, manner of life, and folkways of the Jews. I would encourage you to read "Judaism as a Civilization" by Mordecai M. Kaplan, the seminal work on the subject, for more on that.

As far as power goes, I suppose you could say that. But that has never really been an aim of the Jewish People. We have always wanted to look after ourselves, yes. But power as such has never been an aim of ours, anti-semitic claims aside.

As for giving us a desert, like I said, in the Bronze Age, it wasn't as dry. They called it the Fertile Crescent for a reason.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Hoppy on September 11, 2014, 01:37:40 AM
Is there any truth to the claim that the world is run by a bunch of evil Zionists?
Yes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 11, 2014, 03:29:14 AM
As for giving us a desert, like I said, in the Bronze Age, it wasn't as dry. They called it the Fertile Crescent for a reason.

That's not how deserts work.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 11, 2014, 04:05:03 AM
I am still impatiently awaiting a battle between the just forces of the Levee and the evil and greedy zionist forces of the Yaakov.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 11, 2014, 04:34:30 AM
VINDICTUS, remember, you ARE as stupid as you look. Weather patterns change in 4500 years, dipshit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 11, 2014, 04:40:05 AM
English to this day contains the largest vocabulary of pretty much any language in existence. Denying this is plain stupid.
Well... "denying" this would be acknowledging simple facts.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 11, 2014, 05:16:48 AM
Hungarian is the most likely candidate for having the most words. They have well over 1 million unique (as in unique ideas. e.g. push, pushed, and pushing is not considered three unique words, they're only one word) with roughly 20% of Hungarian being untranslatable because other languages don't have words to cover their ideas. As for English itself, it is the third most spoken language in the world. Both Mandarin and Spanish take precedence over it. The only reason English is prevalent at all in the world is actually the USA's economic domination. If you want to make money, you want to do business with the US, and that normally includes learning English.

I'm actually surprised Yaakov isn't trying to argue that Hebrew is the bestest language ever.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 11, 2014, 08:12:42 AM
VINDICTUS, remember, you ARE as stupid as you look. Weather patterns change in 4500 years, dipshit.

Paradise doesn't turn into a desert in 4500 years. It's humorous that Israel still insists on squabbling over such a crappy place to live.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 11, 2014, 10:34:15 AM
 Regarding Hebrew, it may be the L'shan HaKodesh (the Holy Tongue). Some Orthodox even say it was the language of Creation. Whatever its benefits or lack thereof on a religious level, as a secular language, it has nothing in particular to recommend itself per se.

VINDICTUS, aside from being as stupid as you look, and putting words in my mouth, remember. You ARE the weakest link.

Basque is another one, as is Khmer, with an insane number of words. But nevertheless, I had always heard that English had every other language beat simply for the number of foreign words it has embraced.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: sandokhan on September 11, 2014, 03:13:43 PM
I am still impatiently awaiting a battle between the just forces of the Levee and the evil and greedy zionist forces of the Yaakov.

I am here.

What debate?


yaakov wrote:

Do refer to "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" for a clever forgery of a book that supposedly laid out the plan for Jews to take over the world. The book was actually composed by the Okhrana, the Czarist Secret Police, toward the end of the 19th Century. That is where that got started, though.

No, Okhrana did not do it.

It is a work copied from The Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu (by Maurice Joly), no matter what others say (http://www.savethemales.ca/maurice_joly_plagiarized_proto.html ):

https://archive.org/stream/truthaboutthepro00londiala#page/n0/mode/2up


And even Maurice Joly copied the Dialogues from Jacob Venedy's work Machiavelli, Montesquieu and Rousseau:

http://mailstar.net/toolkit.html
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 11, 2014, 04:19:55 PM
QUOTE: "Sources for the Protocols
The Protocols is a fabricated document purporting to be factual. It was originally produced in Russia between 1897 and 1903, possibly by Pyotr Ivanovich Rachkovsky, head of the Paris office of the Russian Secret Police, and unknown others.[3][4]

Source material for the forgery consisted jointly of Dialogue aux enfers entre Machiavel et Montesquieu or Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu, an 1864 political satire by Maurice Joly[5] and a chapter from Biarritz, an 1868 novel by the antisemitic German novelist Hermann Goedsche, which had been translated into Russian in 1872.[6]

A major source for the Protocols was Der Judenstaat by Theodor Herzl although, paradoxically, early Russian editions of the Protocols assert that they did not come from a Zionist organization.[7] The text, which nowhere advocates for Zionism, resembles a parody of Herzl's ideas.[8]" {Wikipedia}
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 11, 2014, 11:21:43 PM
So, where were we? What else is up for discussion? NOT counting the crap about "Nobody cares" And locking the thread, the conversation has been fine! Quite fine! What else is up next?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 12, 2014, 03:39:56 PM
Is one still Jewish if only by heritage (i.e. Jewish parents)? I don't practice at all and I wouldn't consider myself Jewish but other people do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 05:17:10 PM
LEMON, one is still halakhically Jewish (Jewish according to Jewish Law) unless one changes one's religion (ie becomes a Christian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, etc). Simply not believing in God does not make one not a Jew. In the eyes of the religious authorities, one might be a "bad" Jew, but one is still a Jew.

As far as non-Jews go, that depends. Certainly some anti-Semite assholes will consider you a Jew no matter what you do. Edith Stein was Roman Catholic nun who died in Auschwitz because she was an ethnically Jewish person, irrespective of the fact that she had converted to the Catholic Church many years before the Nazis were even heard of.

As a Jew, you still have the Right of Return. You can still go to Israel and claim citizenship there if you so desire, unless you change your religion and become a non-Jew. In this case, you would no longer have the Right of Return.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 12, 2014, 06:12:12 PM
Lots of Catholics were killed in the holocaust, but mostly for dissidence.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 06:16:56 PM
Rama Set, you are quite correct, of course, but in her case, she died for being a Jew.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 12, 2014, 08:05:17 PM
Wouldn't that lends credence to a Jewish bloodline and not just a religion?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 08:40:02 PM
Well, as I have pointed out on numerous occasions, Judaism is a Civilisation. I would encourage you to read the book "Judaism as a Civilization" by Mordecai M. Kaplan, the seminal work on the subject. There is no doubt that Jews comprise an ethno-religious group. We are similar to Latinos in that we can and do come from any race. But Jews by Birth have DNA that they share with each other that they do not share with non-Jews. Obviously, Jews by Choice do not have those DNA markers. But usually they marry other Jews, and their children acquire those markers.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 12, 2014, 08:45:39 PM
What happens to a birth Jew when they no longer believe in the religion? Are they no longer a Jew?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 08:49:40 PM
 One is still halakhically Jewish (Jewish according to Jewish Law) unless one changes one's religion (ie becomes a Christian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, etc). Simply not believing in God does not make one not a Jew. In the eyes of the religious authorities, one might be a "bad" Jew, but one is still a Jew.

As far as non-Jews go, that depends. Certainly some anti-Semite assholes will consider you a Jew no matter what you do. Edith Stein was Roman Catholic nun who died in Auschwitz because she was an ethnically Jewish person, irrespective of the fact that she had converted to the Catholic Church many years before the Nazis were even heard of.

As a Jew, you still have the Right of Return. You can still go to Israel and claim citizenship there if you so desire, unless you change your religion and become a non-Jew. In this case, you would no longer have the Right of Return.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 12, 2014, 08:55:59 PM
That repost didn't answer my question. Is a Jew by birth still a Jew if they no longer believe in Judaism?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 09:05:23 PM
Yes, a Jew by birth is still considered a Jew if they reject the religion. The only way that they are no longer classified as a Jew is if they actively join a non-Jewish religion. In this case, they would obviously be ethnically Jewish. Their DNA doesn't change. But they would lose all rights within the Jewish community, and that includes any rights that the State of Israel extends to Jews, including the Right of Return.

Although they are obviously still an ethnic Jew, for all intents and purposes, they are treated as whatever they have decided to be (a Hindu, or Christian, or Muslim, or whatever). Essentially, they are treated as a non-Jew. And the State of Israel treats them as such for legal purposes.

On the other hand, if a Jew by Birth becomes an atheist, he remains a Jew ethnically and culturally, and continues to be so regarded within the Jewish community. Although the religious authorities may consider him a "bad" Jew, he IS still a Jew in both the ethnic and cultural sense of the word, and this is also recognised for legal purposes by the State of Israel, where he retains his Jewish identity, and is still allowed the Right of Return, and any other rights that Israel extends to Jews.

Its all rather complicated, and gets into the VERY complicated question of "who is a Jew?". And trying to answer that question thoroughly would keep us here for about the next six weeks. If you like, I can attempt to discuss that with you. Just say the word. But I daresay my wife will be coming home from work shortly, so I must buzz off for a bit. I'll be on a bit longer, and then be back later or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 12, 2014, 09:08:36 PM
What genetic markers make a Jew, a Jew?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 12, 2014, 09:13:13 PM
So then there are ethnic Jews and then there are religious Jews.  So the Catholic nun could have been killed for being a Jew because of heritage even if she became a "non-Jew" from religious conversion.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 09:15:29 PM
I am not a geneticist, so I can't answer that question in the scientific sense that I think you're asking it. But there are markers in the DNA that Jews share with other Jews that they don't share with non-Jews. Furthermore, (an order of Priests) Levites within the Jewish community share markers with each other that they don't share even with other Jews. And Cohanim (a higher order of Priests) share an even tighter set of markers with each other that they do NOT share with Levites or other Jews. I don't know the details, again, because I'm not a scientist. You would have to ask somebody whose specialty is genetics. 

Please note that in the absence of a Temple, the Levites and the Cohanim don't have duties per se. They at present get certain honours in the shul, and say certain blessings over the congregation (or delegate someone else to do it). If the Temple is ever rebuilt, then they would have certain responsibilities, of course.

DUCK, yes, and Edith Stein died in Auschwitz for precisely that reason. She was an ethnic Jew, and the fact that she had converted to Catholicism long before the Nazis were heard of was not enough to save her.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 12, 2014, 09:52:08 PM
I did some reading on the subject.

You are wrong.  While there are genetic markers not commonly found in other groups they are all found in groups originating in the northern fertile crescent.  This includes non-jew Palestinians.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Hoppy on September 12, 2014, 09:58:49 PM
What genetic markers make a Jew, a Jew?
A pointed crooked nose.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 10:28:00 PM
QUOTE: "I did some reading on the subject.

You are wrong.  While there are genetic markers not commonly found in other groups they are all found in groups originating in the northern fertile crescent.  This includes non-jew Palestinians."

I'm not sure what reading you did, but you are full of it. Jews live all over the world. If in fact you were correct, then "Palestinians" would have the same frequency of incidence of Tay-Sachs Disease as Ashkenazi Jews do, along with other interesting genetic disorders. Even other Jews don't have the same problems, so go figure.

The fact remains that Jews are an ethnic group. You can argue this all you want, and you will lose the argument, no matter how many times you argue it. Jews from Ethiopia share genetic markers with Jews from Iraq and Jews from Germany that they do not share with "Palestinians" (or anyone else for that matter).

I would encourage you to read something intelligent, and then get back to me when you actually know what you are talking about. I realise that might be difficult for you, but do try.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 12, 2014, 11:10:36 PM
QUOTE: "I did some reading on the subject.

You are wrong.  While there are genetic markers not commonly found in other groups they are all found in groups originating in the northern fertile crescent.  This includes non-jew Palestinians."

I'm not sure what reading you did, but you are full of it. Jews live all over the world. If in fact you were correct, then "Palestinians" would have the same frequency of incidence of Tay-Sachs Disease as Ashkenazi Jews do, along with other interesting genetic disorders. Even other Jews don't have the same problems, so go figure.

The fact remains that Jews are an ethnic group. You can argue this all you want, and you will lose the argument, no matter how many times you argue it. Jews from Ethiopia share genetic markers with Jews from Iraq and Jews from Germany that they do not share with "Palestinians" (or anyone else for that matter).

I would encourage you to read something intelligent, and then get back to me when you actually know what you are talking about. I realise that might be difficult for you, but do try.

I'm not sure I would consider genetic abnormalities which are the result of inbreeding to be genetic markers. Wouldn't that definition extend to saying that European royalty is (or at least was) its own ethnic group?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 12, 2014, 11:19:47 PM
QUOTE: "I did some reading on the subject.

You are wrong.  While there are genetic markers not commonly found in other groups they are all found in groups originating in the northern fertile crescent.  This includes non-jew Palestinians."

I'm not sure what reading you did, but you are full of it. Jews live all over the world. If in fact you were correct, then "Palestinians" would have the same frequency of incidence of Tay-Sachs Disease as Ashkenazi Jews do, along with other interesting genetic disorders. Even other Jews don't have the same problems, so go figure.

The fact remains that Jews are an ethnic group. You can argue this all you want, and you will lose the argument, no matter how many times you argue it. Jews from Ethiopia share genetic markers with Jews from Iraq and Jews from Germany that they do not share with "Palestinians" (or anyone else for that matter).

I would encourage you to read something intelligent, and then get back to me when you actually know what you are talking about. I realise that might be difficult for you, but do try.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

Have fun.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 13, 2014, 02:25:07 AM
Well, given that Arabs are sons of Abraham by Ishmael, & Jews are sons of Abraham by Isaac (the 2 men were half-brothers), this does stand to reason. Ought to smack my head for not thinking of this. Of course Arabs & Jews are related. But they are still separate, albeit related, ethnic groups. So yes, you're partly right, I'll grant the point. But I stand by what I said re: the Levites, the Cohanim, & Jews generally, & their various DNA markers. The Samaritans are obvious. They are mixed, half Israelite & half Assyrian, mostly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 13, 2014, 06:01:08 AM
Do you know that Arabs and Jews are not literally the direct descendants of the sons of Abraham?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 13, 2014, 06:24:39 AM
Do you know that Arabs and Jews are not literally the direct descendants of the sons of Abraham?

If he were intelligent enough to realise this, he wouldn't be a Muslim hating Jew.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 13, 2014, 11:55:36 AM
Well, given that Arabs are sons of Abraham by Ishmael, & Jews are sons of Abraham by Isaac (the 2 men were half-brothers), this does stand to reason. Ought to smack my head for not thinking of this. Of course Arabs & Jews are related. But they are still separate, albeit related, ethnic groups. So yes, you're partly right, I'll grant the point. But I stand by what I said re: the Levites, the Cohanim, & Jews generally, & their various DNA markers. The Samaritans are obvious. They are mixed, half Israelite & half Assyrian, mostly.
Why do Jews usually like to mate only with other Jews despite a world wide distribution of Jews and such low population numbers?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 13, 2014, 12:29:59 PM
VINDICUS, remember, you lack the level of intelligence that your picture would indicate that you do. And I see no reason to dispute the tradition attribution of descent for Arabs and the Jews just because an atheist suggests it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 13, 2014, 03:57:48 PM
VINDICUS, remember, you lack the level of intelligence that your picture would indicate that you do. And I see no reason to dispute the tradition attribution of descent for Arabs and the Jews just because an atheist suggests it.

Agnostic thanks.

I say this not because I doubt the existence of God but because suggesting that the entire population of Arabs and Jews began only 5000 years ago with one man is ridiculous on its face.

Seriously. This is YEC style nonsense.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 13, 2014, 04:24:12 PM
Yaakov, do you take all parts of the Bible literally?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 13, 2014, 06:03:17 PM
Actually, no, I do not.  But Judaism has been around for about 4500 years as an existing Faith tradition separate from others. And that is about how far back Abraham is said to have lived (perhaps a bit further back).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 13, 2014, 07:19:27 PM
What determines which parts of the Bible are absolute fact and which parts are simply metaphors or analogies? As far as I know, the Bible doesn't make a point of differentiating between fact and fiction.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 13, 2014, 07:52:40 PM
Can I become a Jew?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 13, 2014, 10:37:04 PM
BEARDO, you could if you were willing to put in the time for a conversion class.

QUOTE: "What determines which parts of the Bible are absolute fact and which parts are simply metaphors or analogies? As far as I know, the Bible doesn't make a point of differentiating between fact and fiction."

A VERY good question, that! You are are right, of course. The raw text of the Scripture doesn't tell us anything like that. We rely on scholars who know what they are talking about. And of course, its always difficult to find scholars who understand the modern techniques without given into the liberal BS, but also understand the wisdom of our Fathers.

Its a fine balance. How do you accept the wisdom of the Rabbis of Blessed Memory while still applying the historical-critical method to the Bible? How do you do the last while still recognising that God is still ultimately responsible for the Bible and the historical-critical method can be overdone with regards to the Biblical text?

Those are hard questions to answer. But answer them we must if we are to remain faithful as Jews, and faithful as academics to our field of study (whatever that may be).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 13, 2014, 10:45:25 PM
So you have no good criteria?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 13, 2014, 10:52:32 PM
So you have no good criteria?
Does anyone?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 13, 2014, 10:57:16 PM
How do you view Irish people? And separately, if you care, how do you view Republic of Ireland and Israel relations?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 13, 2014, 11:15:35 PM
LORD DAVE and RAMA SET, both valid questions. I think each person tries to answer that one for himself, at least to a point. All Jews put great pride in education. But the kind of education one gets will be determined by what kind of Jew you are. Are you Orthodox? Then you will probably end up with Yeshiva.

Are you Reform? Then probably a public education and Hebrew school on Sunday. And of course, university studies. A Conservative? Similar, but with more of an interest on traditional Jewish teaching.

But who makes the decisions about what the criteria are? Well, in the field of religion, it is the religious authorities, and the scholars who teach. That is true no matter what religion you belong to, so far as I know.

For us, I would say its the Rabbis of Blessed Memory that determined the realms of permitted inquiry. But for a Jew, that almost anything. The only thing you CAN'T touch is the basic phrase: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." the rest of it is up for argument, although I personally am not inclined to debate it much, because of my Orthodox tendencies.

I have nothing against the Irish. I know next to nothing about how Israel and the Irish Republic have related or failed to relate over the years. I do know that I have little use for the Catholic Church, but that's another issue altogether. There are plenty of Irish that would disagree with me on that, and recently, plenty that would agree with me!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 13, 2014, 11:57:18 PM
Don't you think the criteria for what is literally true in the Bible should rely upon archaeological techniques and stringent tests of historicity rather than the teachings of an understandably biased source?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 14, 2014, 12:01:39 AM
Don't you think the criteria for what is literally true in the Bible should rely upon archaeological techniques and stringent tests of historicity rather than the teachings of an understandably biased source?


Jews are God's chosen and therefore perfect in their knowledge.  Why would they need anything else?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 14, 2014, 12:33:25 AM
Don't you think the criteria for what is literally true in the Bible should rely upon archaeological techniques and stringent tests of historicity rather than the teachings of an understandably biased source?


Jews are God's chosen and therefore perfect in their knowledge.  Why would they need anything else?

Because people think they are dicks?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 14, 2014, 08:40:54 AM
There's too many Muslims flooding into Europe. What did the Holy Roman Empire even mean? Apparently nothing. #smh
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 14, 2014, 11:33:47 AM
LEMON, I agree with you on that. RAMA SET, I'm inclined to agree with you, insofar as it is possible. But remember, they had a hard time finding a Jeep in the Sinai Peninsula from the Yom Kippur War recently because it had been buried in 50 feet of sand. So, of necessity, there are going to be limitations on what archaeology is able to accomplish at any one time.

And remember that the historicity of things when you're dealing with Judaism and the Jews is a little different than when you're dealing with younger civilisations. The Jewish civilisation is 4500 years old. We have maintained our culture and way of life far longer than most civilisations have on this planet, except the Chinese and possibly the Hindu (the Hindu being about the same age, and the Chinese being about 1500 years older).

Our civilisation has passed down our history through oral AND written traditions for 4500 years. When you see that the Written Torah is backed by the Oral Torah (the Oral Traditions of our Fathers), the history therein becomes a bit harder to dismiss out of hand. I am not suggesting that further research shouldn't be done. Of course it should. But what I am suggesting is that Torah gets the benefit of the doubt until such time as it is proven definitively true (most likely) or definitively false (highly unlikely).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 14, 2014, 11:40:00 AM
LEMON, I agree with you on that. RAMA SET, I'm inclined to agree with you, insofar as it is possible. But remember, they had a hard time finding a Jeep in the Sinai Peninsula from the Yom Kippur War recently because it had been buried in 50 feet of sand. So, of necessity, there are going to be lim
itations on what archaeology is able to accomplish at any one time.

And remember that the historicity of things when you're dealing with Judaism and the Jews is a little different than when you're dealing with younger civilisations. The Jewish civilisation is 4500 years old. We have maintained our culture and way of life far longer than most civilisations have on this planet, except the Chinese and possibly the Hindu (the Hindu being about the same age, and the Chinese being about 1500 years older).

Our civilisation has passed down our history through oral AND written traditions for 4500 years. When you see that the Written Torah is backed by the Oral Torah (the Oral Traditions of our Fathers), the history therein becomes a bit harder to dismiss out of hand. I am not suggesting that further research shouldn't be done. Of course it should. But what I am suggesting is that Torah gets the benefit of the doubt until such time as it is proven definitively true (most likely) or definitively false (highly unlikely).
So because Jews can read and write, the Torah must be true?
You do know that speaking what's written doesn't count as proof right?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 14, 2014, 11:58:35 AM
DAVE, you evidently have no idea what you are talking about. The Oral Torah contains many things that the written Torah does not.

QUOTE OF MINE FROM ANOTHER THREAD: "Since the very foundational aspects of Jewish existence are based on the Exodus, it is difficult to conclude that such never occurred. Very much like the Chinese Civilisation, where the first three dynasties were determined to be mythical, now the third of those has been proven historical through archaeological and historical research. I expect the first two will as well. The same will occur with the Exodus in time.

To be blunt, and perhaps a bit rude, people don't just invent founding myths that endure for 4500 fucking years. You can invent shit that might endure for 50, or even a 100 years, but not for 4 and half a millenia. And ultimately, since the Book of Exodus has been around for 4500 years, and the atheistic/agnostic mindset only for about 250, I would submit that it is the latter upon whom the burden of proof rests. If you wish to argue that Exodus never happened, and challenge the accepted tradition of Jewish, Christian, and even Muslim civilisation by so arguing, then you'd better buy a damned good bow, and put some excellent arrows in your quiver, and be prepared to go to battle. While you're at it, be prepared not only to lose said battle, but be prepared to look like an asshole doing it.

And the claim that "modern biblical scholarship" has proven that Exodus was written 600 years after the event won't get you far with about 80% of the Jewish religious world (the non-religious Jewish world doesn't give a rat's ass one way or the other), and it won't get you too far with most of the Christian world, or any of the Muslim world (not that I care about the latter, but, I'm simply making a point). Most of us regard "modern biblical scholarship" as a joke. It was established largely BY atheists and agnostics, so it holds essentially no value because its deliberate intent from the beginning is to disprove the text, rather than look at it objectively.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point." END QUOTE.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 14, 2014, 01:04:00 PM
1. Argument from age.  Logical fallacy.
2. If they contain different things then they can't back each other up.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but the oral Torah has been written down at least once yes?  So its not exactly hard to keep straight.

And 4,500 years?  Are you judging this simply from the estimated age of the book you get your ideas from or were you there?

And if the former, doesn't that say more about how Jews are incapable of change than it does to prove a point about history?  Following a book's rules about culture for longer than any civilization should?

Oh!  And wouldn't that mean that while Muslims are in the 7th century, you're well in the BCE?  Meaning you are more barbaric than them?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 14, 2014, 01:15:46 PM
The Oral Torah is collected in 20 volumes of Talmud, which take up a shit-ton of space on a library shelf. I would recommend reading an encyclopedia entry on the age of the Jews.

As for the comment about the Muslims, do note that Jews are capable of change. We no longer execute for adultery, and the like. Muslims still LIVE in the Seventh Century. We refer to the Torah as the basis of legislation, but amend it as necessary to reflect life in the modern world, much as the United States no longer considers the Negro 3/5 of a person, or permits slavery, etc etc, but has amended its constitution to reflect changes in life in the modern age.

As far as keeping Oral Torah straight, its harder than a non-Jew thinks. Just because its been written down, in many cases, no firm decisions have been decided on its issues. They continued to be debated today. In some cases, firm decisions have been made, but in many, different decisions are made when the situation comes up depending on the circumstances.

Since human beings, and civilisations, do not always operate logically, application of the rules of logic cannot always apply. By that standard, they would have given up the search for the first three dynasties of China since for many, many years they had found NOTHING. But they did not, and eventually, the research paid off.

At present, I must sign off. Have a pleasant day, people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 15, 2014, 12:05:00 AM
The Oral Torah is collected in 20 volumes of Talmud, which take up a shit-ton of space on a library shelf. I would recommend reading an encyclopedia entry on the age of the Jews.

As for the comment about the Muslims, do note that Jews are capable of change. We no longer execute for adultery, and the like. Muslims still LIVE in the Seventh Century. We refer to the Torah as the basis of legislation, but amend it as necessary to reflect life in the modern world, much as the United States no longer considers the Negro 3/5 of a person, or permits slavery, etc etc, but has amended its constitution to reflect changes in life in the modern age.

As far as keeping Oral Torah straight, its harder than a non-Jew thinks. Just because its been written down, in many cases, no firm decisions have been decided on its issues. They continued to be debated today. In some cases, firm decisions have been made, but in many, different decisions are made when the situation comes up depending on the circumstances.

Since human beings, and civilisations, do not always operate logically, application of the rules of logic cannot always apply. By that standard, they would have given up the search for the first three dynasties of China since for many, many years they had found NOTHING. But they did not, and eventually, the research paid off.

At present, I must sign off. Have a pleasant day, people.

Quote
When you see that the Written Torah is backed by the Oral Torah
Quote
As far as keeping Oral Torah straight, its harder than a non-Jew thinks.  Just because its been written down, in many cases, no firm decisions have been decided on its issues. They continued to be debated today. In some cases, firm decisions have been made, but in many, different decisions are made when the situation comes up depending on the circumstances.
I hope you notice the contradiction here.

So what you're saying is that you DON'T have the same culture as 4,500 years ago, the Oral Torah is debated and thus is not valid evidence of anything, and the written Torah doesn't back up the Oral in all places, giving that little evidence.

Also, didn't Egyptian Myth endure for quite a few thousand years?
Greek Mythology still persist to this very day.  Though it was believed to be true for a few thousand years as well.
And isn't Hinduism the oldest religion in the world?

I submit that people do invent religions that persist for thousands of years.  People are, after all, easily led.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 15, 2014, 12:41:20 AM
DAVE, you evidently have no idea what you are talking about. The Oral Torah contains many things that the written Torah does not.

QUOTE OF MINE FROM ANOTHER THREAD: "Since the very foundational aspects of Jewish existence are based on the Exodus, it is difficult to conclude that such never occurred. Very much like the Chinese Civilisation, where the first three dynasties were determined to be mythical, now the third of those has been proven historical through archaeological and historical research. I expect the first two will as well. The same will occur with the Exodus in time.

To be blunt, and perhaps a bit rude, people don't just invent founding myths that endure for 4500 fucking years. You can invent shit that might endure for 50, or even a 100 years, but not for 4 and half a millenia. And ultimately, since the Book of Exodus has been around for 4500 years, and the atheistic/agnostic mindset only for about 250, I would submit that it is the latter upon whom the burden of proof rests. If you wish to argue that Exodus never happened, and challenge the accepted tradition of Jewish, Christian, and even Muslim civilisation by so arguing, then you'd better buy a damned good bow, and put some excellent arrows in your quiver, and be prepared to go to battle. While you're at it, be prepared not only to lose said battle, but be prepared to look like an asshole doing it.

And the claim that "modern biblical scholarship" has proven that Exodus was written 600 years after the event won't get you far with about 80% of the Jewish religious world (the non-religious Jewish world doesn't give a rat's ass one way or the other), and it won't get you too far with most of the Christian world, or any of the Muslim world (not that I care about the latter, but, I'm simply making a point). Most of us regard "modern biblical scholarship" as a joke. It was established largely BY atheists and agnostics, so it holds essentially no value because its deliberate intent from the beginning is to disprove the text, rather than look at it objectively.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point." END QUOTE.

Please quote normally. It's unnecessarily hard to read your posts. 

Anyway, how are any of those arguments not equally valid for Hinduism, which is several millennia older than Judaism?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 15, 2014, 01:02:56 AM
Please quote normally. It's unnecessarily hard to read your posts. 

He can't. He accesses the internet through an old wooden rotary phone.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 15, 2014, 01:26:39 AM
Please quote normally. It's unnecessarily hard to read your posts. 

He can't. He accesses the internet through an old wooden rotary phone.
Amish Paradise?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 15, 2014, 02:04:43 AM
Actually, no, Hinduism is at most only about 1000 years older than Judaism, making that ONE millenium older, rather than several.

And I submit that although modern Rabbinic Judaism is certainly more developed than the ancient tribal Hebrew religion that Abraham adopted in Ur and went to Canaan with, or that Moses met God with in a Burning Bush, it is still the same recognisable Faith, and the same recognisable People practicing that Faith. Ancient Hinduism at this date 4500 years ago (about the time of Abraham) was a religion of the ancient Indo-Aryans occupying, if memory serves, the Northern part of the sub-continent. It was half of modern Hinduism, namely, the Brahmanistic half. It took about 2 and half millenia for the darker skinned Dravidians from Southern India to mix with their Indo-Aryan neighbours, producing the modern Indian, modern day Hinduism, and the caste system, with its multiple emphases on cleanliness, religious rankings, and even its preference to keep the skin colour separate.

So in that sense, Judaism being a recognisable Faith then compared to what it is now, it IS the oldest religion.

Egyptian and Greek myth were never coherent collections of writings per se. They were randomised collections, with competing stories that conflicted with each other, and vied for acceptance throughout the existence of both pagan systems.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: sandokhan on September 16, 2014, 01:24:10 PM
yaakov wrote:

So in that sense, Judaism being a recognisable Faith then compared to what it is now, it IS the oldest religion.


Edwin Johnson (http://www.egodeath.com/edwinjohnsonpaulineepistles.htm#_Toc54460029 ):

But what is not yet understood is the true epoch of the beginning of Hebrew literature -- in other words, the rise of a class of literary men among the Jewish people. It has now been long a growing opinion that the Biblical books are much later than the "tradition" from the "Revival of Letters" has alleged them to be. Some critics, like Ernest Havet and Maurice Vernes, have lowered some of the books many centuries on the chronological scale. In this way the public mind has to some extent been prepared for the conclusion which I venture to announce, that the Hebrew literature is distinctly a modern literature.

 In the first place, it is utterly impossible to trace the existence of Hebrew books among the Jewish people themselves beyond the epoch which I roughly date as "about 400 years ago," or the beginning of the Age of Publication. It is, indeed, alleged that the first Hebrew book was printed at a place called Soncino, near Cremona, a little earlier; but the student will discover, as before, that the fifteenth century dates are not to be trusted, and that sixteenth-century dates are very dubious.

But in general terms let me say that all our information about the Hebrew books from Hebrews themselves is sixteenth-century information. Only from the Age of Publication is any light cast upon the preceding darkness, and it is a light which convinces us that the Hebrew Letters were then a novel invention in the world. In Christian circles it is difficult to trace even the faint beginnings of Hebrew study in the earlier half of our sixteenth century. If the date of the Alcala Polyglott be true, Hebrew was of course known at that time to a limited number of monastic scholars, and was treated by them with no reverence, but merely as an instrument of ecclesiastical dominion. Their Latin version, so-called, is not a version or translation, but a sort of travesty of the Hebrew meaning. And I, at least, cannot conceive that such a thing could have been done had the Hebrew Scriptures been long in existence, and their meaning generally understood.

I have already pointed out what I hold to be the keybook to the system of Latin or Christian literature, the "List of Illustrious Men." Is there any corresponding keybook to the system of Hebrew literature? Undoubtedly there is; but that book is not the Hebrew Bible, which does not contain from end to end a solitary date, in the ordinary sense of the word, that can be used for purposes of science. Books alleged to be of Divine authority, and to contain a tradition from the creation itself, necessarily do not admit of being dated as matter-of-fact compositions are.

But now close the Bible, and open the other traditional books of the Hebrews, for which no Divine authority is claimed, and all becomes clear. The Cabbala, or Tradition, proves to be no tradition at all, but an invention of the Revival of Letters. The key-book is the "Sepher Juchasin" or "Book of Families," written in unpointed Hebrew, and attributed to the pen of one of the Sephardim or Spanish and Portuguese Jews, the Rabbi Abraham Zacuth or Zacuto. Though this little book has, never been translated, its contents have passed into various compilations, and may be conveniently consulted -- for example, in the Latin works of Wolf or of Bartolocci. The book is said to have been written about the year 1502 of our chronology.

Now, what is the programme of this work? It professes to contain a history of the events of the world from the Creation down to the time of the author. In particular, it contains the list of the alleged illustrious Hebrew scholars, and so corresponds to the Latin list to which I have so often referred. If you wish for particulars about Moses Maimonides, or any other famed writer, this list must be consulted, or one of the later lists based upon it. There is no dispensing with it. If it be a genuine record of ancient and mediaeval times, Hebrew antiquity is proved. If, on the other hand, it be, like the Latin list, a mere invention designed to produce the illusion of antiquity, the whole system is discovered to be a modern invention. I have no hesitation in saying that, tried by any possible test, the "Book of Families" is an invention of the Revival of Letters. Not only have no early records been discovered on which it is based, but the later Hebrew writers of the Age of Publication entirely confirm the opinion of the recency of the system.

I say that the admissions of the solitary Rabbi, Elias Levita, of whom a story is told that he gave lessons to Luther in Rome, are sufficient of themselves to establish the truth. What is the meaning of the admission that the vowel points are recent, but that the written language is still in a crude and imperfect state? What is the meaning of the admission that the Hebrew had ceased to be a spoken tongue in the mouth of the people, and that it had become the mere possession of literary men? It means that the Hebrew was the recent work of art of literary men. The Rabbis were in the same inconsistent position with all priestly scholars: they had to maintain the antiquity and sacredness of books which they knew to be fresh and of human origin. The truth, as usual, escapes for the initiated eye, and, possibly, was intended to escape by some of the more enlightened and truth-loving of these scholars.

The tales of "Palestinian" and "Babylonian" schools are but tales. I once thought that there were Spanish schools of Hebrew learning in the eleventh or twelfth century of our chronology; but, on detecting the fable of Zacuto's work, I found that notion must also be abandoned. Nor can I so much as make out anything definite about Jewish culture so late as 1492, when the great exodus from Spain is said to have taken place. The Hebrew accounts of that event are very slight, and appear to have been written down near the middle of the sixteenth century.

Another very important book for the understanding of the rise of Hebrew literature is the chronicle ascribed to the R. Joseph, another of the Sephardim, who is said to have lived in exile at Avignon and at Genoa. Here is a man who may be said to "write Bible," so thoroughly is he steeped in Hebrew poetical imagery. He is one of the best guides to the Bible extant; and, as his work has been done into English, it should be studied by all who wish to arrive at the truth. He is another powerful indirect witness against the antiquity of Hebrew letters.

Another fact that should be added to the sum of evidence is the bad state of the text of the early-printed Hebrew Bibles. Can you conceive it possible that a text which had been long in use, and had been jealously guarded by the pastors and rulers of the people, should come from the Press teeming with errors, and bearing all the marks of rush and haste? To me this is not conceivable. In short, it would be weakness to labour the argument, once clearly stated. It is this: The phenomena of Hebrew letters during the Age of Publication (or sixteenth century) forbid us to suppose that they are an invention of much earlier date.

Again: According to the Christian tradition, which my readers will find in the handbooks, the first Christian scholar who learned Hebrew from Jewish teachers was none other than our notorious Hieronymus, or imaginary Jerome, the mouthpiece of the monks of the Age of Publication.

Once more: When you understand the "Jerome" works to be of that time, many a cloud rolls away, many an enigma is solved. Through this imaginary scholar we learn that the monks had unpointed Hebrew before them; that, consequently, the same word might be read Roim, shepherds, or Reim, lovers; that another word might be read either as Salem or Salim, because "very rarely do the Hebrews use vowels, and the words may be pronounced differently, according to the caprice of the readers and the variety of regions;" that the Hebrew word DBR, without vowels, may be understood as dabar, word, or as daber, pest; that SM may either be understood as placed (sam), or as there (sham); and so on ("Hieron. Ep. ad Damasum," 125; "Ad Evag." 126; "Comm. ad Heb. 111., 5," and so on).

Further: It is through the Talmud alone that we can know what the Jewish scholars wished their people to believe about the Bible; and, certainly, the collection of Jewish lore called by that name was not heard of until the early Age of Publication, when it was denounced by Christian scholars as entirely inconsistent with Christianity. The Talmudic tracts give evidence that mere Hebrew caligraphy is still imperfect, and that correct readings have not been fixed, in many a passage. The good Rabbis veil their critical observations, such as they are, under the figure of the "Tradition of Moses from Mount Sinai."


Israel Finkelstein (University of Tel-Aviv), Bible Unearthed

http://books.google.ro/books?id=lu6ywyJr0CMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=israel+finkelstein+bible+unearthed&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4DgYVNPGD6viywOQ94HACA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=israel%20finkelstein%20bible%20unearthed&f=false

The Bible Unearthed begins by considering what it terms the 'preamble' of the bible "the Book of Genesis" and its relationship to archaeological evidence for the context in which its narratives are set. Archaeological discoveries about society and culture in the ancient near east lead the authors to point out a number of anachronisms, suggestive that the narratives were actually set down in the 9th-7th centuries:

   * Aramaeans are frequently mentioned, but no ancient text mentions them until around 1100BCE, and they only begin to dominate Israel's northern borders after the 9th century BCE.

    * The text describes the early origin of the neighbouring kingdom of Edom, but Assyrian records show that Edom only came into existence after the conquest of the region by Assyria; before then it was without functioning kings, wasn't a distinct state, and archaeological evidence shows that the territory was only sparsely populated.

    * The Joseph story refers to camel-based traders carrying gum, balm, and myrrh, an unlikely event for the first millennium, but quite common in the 8th-7th centuries BCE, when Assyrian hegemony enabled this Arabian trade to flourish into a major industry.

    * The land of Goshen has a name that comes from an Arabic group who only dominated the Nile Delta in the 6th and 5th centuries.

    * The Egyptian Pharaoh is portrayed as fearing invasion from the east, even though Egypt's territory stretched to the northern parts of Canaan, with its main threat consequently being from the north, until the 7th century

The book comments that this corresponds with the documentary hypothesis, in which textual scholarship argues for the majority of the first five biblical books being written between the 8th and 6th centuries.

Finkelstein and Silberman argue that instead of the Israelites conquering Canaan after the Exodus (as suggested by the book of Joshua), most of them had in fact always been there; the Israelites were simply Canaanites who developed into a distinct culture. Recent surveys of long-term settlement patterns in the Israelite heartlands show no sign of violent invasion or even peaceful infiltration, but rather a sudden demographic transformation about 1200 BCE in which villages appear in the previously unpopulated highlands;these settlements have a similar appearance to modern Bedouin camps, suggesting that the inhabitants were once pastoral nomads, driven to take up farming by the Late Bronze Age collapse of the Canaanite city-culture.


Dr. Gunnar Heinsohn has already demonstrated in his best known work (http://www.specialtyinterests.net/heinsohn.html ) that the entire historical period of 2100 BC - 600 BC was invented:

"Heinsohn has made a very important contribution to the revisionist debate by focussing attention on the evidence of stratigraphy outside Egypt. Dayton had uncovered many examples in museums around the world where near identical ancient artefacts of very similar styles and manufacturing techniques were given dates which varied sometimes by as much as 1000-1500 years. Heinsohn, from an extensive study of archaeological reports from most of the better known sites across Asia Minor, showed how these anachronisms had arisen. At site after site, archaeologists had artificially increased the age of the lower strata by inserting, without supporting evidence, 'occupation gaps' of many centuries. They did this in order to meet the expectations of excessive antiquity among historians, who had used Biblically derived dates for Abraham (c. 2100), initially seen as broadly contemporary with the great Assyrian king Hammurabi. Using this elongated time frame, great empires of the past such as the Sumerians, Akkadians and Old Babylonians were invented by late 19th C and early 20th C scholars to fill the historical voids. The ancient Greek and Roman historians, not surprisingly, knew nothing of these ancient peoples. Sumerian, said Heinsohn, 'is the language of the well known Kassite/Chaldeans, whose literacy deserves its fame'.

He showed that the Bronze Age started in China and Mesoamerica some 1500 years later than in the Near East and proposed this gap be largely closed by lowering the ages of the Mediterranean civilisations. He cited the Indus Valley where the early period civilisations, dated from Mesopotamian seals to c. 2400BC, sit right underneath the Buddhist strata of 7-6C. Seals from Mesopotamia are found in the Indus valley and in Mesopotamia there are seals from the Indus Valley. So the excavators have to say they have an occupation gap of some 1700 years. Thus some sites only about 30km apart have chronologies some 1500 years apart. But in the same strata, supposedly 1500 years apart, they frequently find the same pottery.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 16, 2014, 03:21:46 PM
You are making the mistake of assuming I accept ANY "modern day liberal Biblical scholarship". I do not. My rejection of that essentially puts your entire post into the round file, although I don't deny that the original core text may have been embroidered by later hands in the following centuries after Moses finished writing it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 16, 2014, 04:39:36 PM
sandokhan, you should really cite your sources for the unquoted parts of your post.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: sandokhan on September 17, 2014, 01:12:39 PM
I could bring here the overwhelming evidence which does show that the Exodus, as is described in the Bible, could never have taken place at all.

However, I will bring to your attention something you have no knowledge about, something new to our discussion.


THE SANTORINI (THERA) ERUPTION AND THE EXODUS

The extraordinary research performed by Dr. Max Bichler (Atomic Institute of Vienna) which demonstrates that the fallout from the eruption of the Thera volcano (Santorini), including volcanic ash and pumice, reached Egypt.

http://www.planet-austria.at/0xc1aa500d_0x0005a45f.pdf


This means that the eruption of the Santorini volcano is the basis of the twelve plagues depicted in the Exodus.

http://www.greeka.com/cyclades/santorini/santorini-volcano/biblical.htm

However, this leads to a huge problem, unsolved to this day, as the date proposed for the eruption of Thera is in the decade 1630–1620 BC, and is based on radiocarbon dating, dendrochronology, ice core measurements, and similar scientific investigations.

A later date was proposed for the eruption of Thera is in the range of 1535–1525 BC, and is “based chiefly on ceramic sequences and Egyptian synchronisms”.


If the natural disasters described in the Exodus chapters did also occur some 50-150 years earlier, why is their account missing in those books/chapters?

If the Thera volcano eruption did cause the plagues described in the Exodus, then this leads directly to the huge problem which is unsolved to this day, and which involves questions relating to the very foundation of the heliocentric planetary system.


Various authors proposed the theory that the planet Venus caused the pole shift which in turn lead to the stupendous catastrophe documented by Dr. Adam Maloof (Princeton).

The main proof comes from the Ammizaduga Venus tables which show that the orbit followed by Venus in the past was markedly different from that observed in the present.

http://www.skepticfiles.org/neocat/ammi.htm

Charles Ginenthal (Sagan and Velikovsky) has a great deal to
say about the Ammizaduga tablets, pp 281 - 284, quoting Livio C.
Stecchini's "The Velikovsky Affair":

     "The Venus tablets of Ammizaduga is the most striking document
     of early Babylonian astronomy.  These tablets, of which we
     possess several copies of different origin, report the dates
     of the helical rising and setting of the planet Venus during
     a period of 21 years...

     "Since the first effort at explanation of Archibald Henry
     Sayce in 1874, these figures have challenged the wit of a
     score of experts of astronomy and cuneiform philology.
     (Father Franz Xavier) Kugler (1862 - 1929), a recognized major
     authority on Babylonian and biblical astronomy, chronology and
     mythology, opposed the contention of those who claim that
     these documents must be dismissed as nonsense."  [because they
     do not conform to present orbital patterns for Venus]

 "Let me give some typical passages from the tablet:

 
     "In the month of Sivan, on the twenty fifth day, Ninsianna
     [that is, Venus] disappeared in the east; she remained absent
     from the sky for two months, six days; in the month Ulul on
     the 24'th day, Ninsianna appeared in the West - the heart of
     the land is happy. In the month Nisan on the 27'th day,
     Ninsianna disappeared in the West; she remained absent from
     the sky for seven days; in the month Ayar on the third day,
     Ninsianna appeared in the east - hostilities occur in the
     land, the harvest of the land is successful.


     "The first invisibility mentioned in these lines involves a
     disappearance in the east, an invisibility of two months, six
     days, and a reappearance in the west.  This seems to be a
     superior conjunction. The second invisibility involves a
     disappearance in the west, an invisibility of seven days, and
     a reappearance in the east.  This seems to be an inferior
     conjunction.  Most of the data in groups one and three on the
     tablet are of this form.  But the lengths and spacings of
     these invisibilities have a certain irregularity about them,
     and they do not conform to the manner in which Venus moves at
     present.

     "The data given in the second group on the tablet do have
     regularity - even too much regularity to be believable, - but
     they do not conform to the present state of affairs
     either.....

Adam Maloof (Princeton) and Lonnie Thompson (Ohio State University) confirm that a stupendous catastrophy occurred some 5200 years ago.

http://www.mayanendoftheworldplanetx.com/Pages/videostudio.html

Princeton University geoscientist, Adam Maloof investigates 2012 Maya prognostications, in response to the many queries he has received concerning the possibility of an upcoming geographical poleshift. Dr. Maloof's specialities include paleogeography, the study of continental plate transmigrations. In these National Geographic video clips, he travels from the frigid Arctic to the scorching outbacks of Australia to the dense forrest of Central America, to investigate geologic evidence and traditions of any pass geographic poleshift.

His research revealed not one but two important discoveries; one poleshift transpired slowly over a million years( posing no threat to life on earth) while the other happened abruptly some 5200 years ago(approximately the end of the Maya's last Great Cycle, when the last "world" ended.) Perhaps a coincidence, but it was enough for Dr. Maloof to pursue and study the ancient Maya legacy in greater depth. A journey that would take him from Dresden Germany, home of the famous Dresden Codex (one of four codices that survived the Inquisition) to the ancient ruins of Chi'chen Itza.

To understand how these ancient people with such remarkable mathematical and astronomical skills, were inclined to prognosticate the future with such conviction. Their obsession with cycles and climate change, their beliefs that all major cycles began and ended with global destruction.

With the aid of notable Paleoclimatologist, Lonnie Thompson from Ohio State University, they venture to the summit of the Quelccaya ice caps of the Peruvian Andes at sixteen thousand feet, to unlock secrets trapped in the glaciers for over five thousands years. While continents apart, from ice core samples at Mt. Kilimanjaro, Africa to "Otzi The Iceman" from the Austrian Alps, all corroborate a global disaster at the end of the last Long Count cycle and provide possible insight on what may happen at the end of this current Great Cycle.

Full video can be seen in the National Geographic 2012 The Final Prophecy documentary.



Billions of tons of ice would have fallen on the polar regions, flash-freezing everything in little more than an instant.
 
This, at last, would explain the mystery of the mammoths found frozen where they stood. The mammoth, contrary to belief, was not a cold region animal, but one which lived in temperate grasslands.
 
Somehow those temperate regions were frozen in a moment. Some mammoths have been found frozen in the middle of eating! There you are munching away and the next thing you know you’re an ice lolly. If this ionized ice did rain down, the biggest build up would have been nearest to the magnetic poles because they would have had the most powerful attraction. Again, that is the case. The ice mass in the polar regions is greater at the poles than at the periphery and yet there is less snow and rain at the poles to create such a build up.


It is proposed that the carefully documented proofs of the catastrophe actually describe the end of the last Ice Age, which occurred some 3.500 years ago (and not 5.200 years ago).


http://www.immanuelvelikovsky.com/mammoth.pdf (THE EXTINCTION OF THE MAMMOTH)

"The sudden extermination of mammoths was caused by a catastrophe
and probably resulted from asphyxiation or electrocution. The immediately
subsequent movement of the Siberian continent into the polar region is probably
responsible for the preservation of the corpses.

"It appears that the mammoths, along with other animals, were killed by
a tempest of gases accompanied by a spontaneous lack of oxygen caused by fires
raging high in the atmosphere. A few instances later their dying or dead bodies
were moving into the polar circle. In a few hours northeastern America moved
from the frigid zone of the polar circle into a moderate zone; northeastern Siberia
moved in the opposite direction from a moderate zone to the polar circle. The
present cold climate of northern Siberia started when the glacial age in Europe
and America came to a sudden end."

http://asis.com/users/stag/starchiv/transcriptions/ST110Velikovsky.html (exceptionally documented)

The sudden shift in the direction of the axis of Earth would have meant a slowing down of the velocity of the diurnal rotation of the Earth, and there would have no way for the Earth to regain the same velocity of the diurnal rotation as before, after Venus departed to a different orbit.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_2.htm (superb documentation)







Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 02:18:40 PM
First off, there were 10 Plagues, not 12. Second, the dating of the Exodus has always been questionable. Saying it happened during the time of Raameses II is the most popular thing to do, but not necessarily the accurate thing to do. The biblical text does not name the Pharaoh under whom it took place. Since Raameses II was one of the most powerful monarchs ever to sit upon a throne ANYWHERE in the world at anytime in history, I suspect it happened at some different time.

Could a volcano have caused it? I don't see why not. Would that change the traditional dating? Sure. So what? Your point is? God can easily untilise natural events to make supernatural things occur. I see nothing unusual about that. It seems to me that, to paraphrase Shakespeare, "me thinketh that the man doth protest too much". You are grasping at straws. How's that working out for you?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: sandokhan on September 17, 2014, 02:37:08 PM
The quote with the 12 plagues was included just as it appeared in the work cited.

There are no straws here, just a total destruction/demolition of your main argument: that Judaism is the oldest religion.

The proofs coming from the natural sciences are very clear: the stupendous catastrophe which did cause the extinction of the mammoths could not possibly have occurred in a heliocentric system.


Let me put an end to this thread right now.

WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?

Independent but nearly simultaneous proposals by H. B. Witter, Jean Astruc, and Johann Gottfried Eichhorn separated the Pentateuch into two original documentary components, both dating from after the time of Moses. Others hypothesized the presence of two additional sources. The four documents were given working titles: J (Jahwist/Yahwist), E (Elohist), P (Priestly), and D (Deuteronomist). Each was discernible by its own characteristic language, and each, when read in isolation, presented a unified, coherent narrative.

The documentary hypothesis has more recently been refined by later scholars such as Martin Noth (who in 1943 provided evidence that Deuteronomy plus the following six books make a unified history from the hand of a single editor), Harold Bloom, Frank Moore Cross and Richard Elliot Friedman.

1 and 2 Samuel were written BEFORE the priestly version was invented (the priestly version was written according to the official chronology at least 600 - 800 years after the Exodus; this version which consists of, among other numerous passages, the whole book of Leviticus, Exodus chapters 25-32, 35-40, Numbers 3-10, 15-20, 27-30, 35-36, Deuteronomy 18, Joshua 22):

http://www.awitness.org/contrabib/torah/latedate.html (one of the very best)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_source

http://islamworld.net/torah.html

http://www.voltairenet.org/article160971.html


Also the book of Judges, chapters 13 and 21 contradict directly the laws/regulations written down in the book of Leviticus.

The author of the books of 1 and 2 Samuel and the book of Judges HAD NO KNOWLEDGE of the laws/regulations in the Leviticus/Numbers/Exodus, as these were created well after the (J) and (E) versions.


http://www.talkreason.org/articles/letter1.cfm (COMPLETE DEMOLITION OF THE EXODUS STORY)


https://web.archive.org/web/20100307232900/http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho6.htm (tremendous research, one of the very best)

https://web.archive.org/web/20090420173322/http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho1.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20111108153953/http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho3.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20091116035925/http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho4.htm




https://web.archive.org/web/20100909121008/http://www.hindurevolution.org/01/monotheismju03.htm (exceptionally documented)

https://web.archive.org/web/20120803000912/http://www.hindurevolution.org/01/monotheismju04.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20120427132146/http://www.hindurevolution.org/01/monotheismju01.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20120801224058/http://www.hindurevolution.org/01/monotheismju02.htm


https://web.archive.org/web/20100822060346/http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biggestsecret/tales_timeloop/tales_timeloop09.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20100318002654/http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biggestsecret/biggestsecretbook/biggestsecret04.htm



https://web.archive.org/web/20071025011345/http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/jewish/30yrs/rendsburg/index.html

A third model developed, much more radical in its approach.  The archaeological evidence now was interpreted to demonstrate that the Israelites did not originate outside the land, but were in origin Canaanites who had shifted gears.  Israelite pottery was indistinguishable from Canaanite pottery; Israelite architecture was indistinguishable from Canaanite architecture; Israelite water systems were indistinguishable from Canaanite water systems; and so on. All of this meant that the Israelites were Canaanites.

Bible Unearthed (Finkelstein/Silberman)

The Bible Unearthed begins by considering what it terms the 'preamble' of the bible, the Book of Genesis, and its relationship to archaeological evidence for the context in which its narratives are set. Archaeological discoveries about society and culture in the ancient near east lead the authors to point out a number of anachronisms, suggestive that the narratives were actually set down in the 9th-7th centuries:

   * Aramaeans are frequently mentioned, but no ancient text mentions them until around 1100BCE, and they only begin to dominate Israel's northern borders after the 9th century BCE.
    * The text describes the early origin of the neighbouring kingdom of Edom, but Assyrian records show that Edom only came into existence after the conquest of the region by Assyria; before then it was without functioning kings, wasn't a distinct state, and archaeological evidence shows that the territory was only sparsely populated.
    * The Joseph story refers to camel-based traders carrying gum, balm, and myrrh, an unlikely event for the first millennium, but quite common in the 8th-7th centuries BCE, when Assyrian hegemony enabled this Arabian trade to flourish into a major industry.
    * The land of Goshen has a name that comes from an Arabic group who only dominated the Nile Delta in the 6th and 5th centuries.
    * The Egyptian Pharaoh is portrayed as fearing invasion from the east, even though Egypt's territory stretched to the northern parts of Canaan, with its main threat consequently being from the north, until the 7th century

The book comments that this corresponds with the documentary hypothesis, in which textual scholarship argues for the majority of the first five biblical books being written between the 8th and 6th centuries.

Finkelstein and Silberman argue that instead of the Israelites conquering Canaan after the Exodus (as suggested by the book of Joshua), most of them had in fact always been there; the Israelites were simply Canaanites who developed into a distinct culture.Recent surveys of long-term settlement patterns in the Israelite heartlands show no sign of violent invasion or even peaceful infiltration, but rather a sudden demographic transformation about 1200 BCE in which villages appear in the previously unpopulated highlands;these settlements have a similar appearance to modern Bedouin camps, suggesting that the inhabitants were once pastoral nomads, driven to take up farming by the Late Bronze Age collapse of the Canaanite city-culture.


No historical David/Solomon

http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Doc6/dsmyth.htm

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0160Solomon.php


Next time we meet, we will discuss the extraordinary astronomical proofs which show that the Council of Nicaea could not have taken place before the year 876-877 AD, which destroy your arguments as to the dating of the Exodus.



EDIT


Also, the quote from Jeremiah 7:22 contradicts directly the laws/regulations of the Leviticus. There have been attempts to explain this quote (Jeremiah 7:22 For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices...) within the context of figurative language, an argument which can be contradicted immediately:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090713230842/http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/fprophet.html

http://www.awitness.org/essays/levjer.html
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 02:53:40 PM
You are again assuming that I accept any "modern liberal Biblical scholarship". I do not. Moses wrote the first five books of the Hebrew Bible. Joshua wrote the Sixth. I could go on, and name the writers of each, but I shan't bother. I don't accept the whole concept of three authors writing the Pentateuch. At most, there may have been some embroidering of numbers, and that may actually have been done by Moses himself as part of a Kabbalistic understanding Exodus.

So, you are not going to win here. If I were you, I would stop trying to bother. All you are doing is making yourself look like an ass.

I've studied "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" just as you have. In fact, I probably know more about it than you do, having been educated in a liberal Catholic university, where religion and theology courses were required. I also studied for ministry at one point. So don't try to lecture me about current liberal theology. I already know it better than you do. I simply am not stupid enough to accept it as you do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: sandokhan on September 17, 2014, 02:56:29 PM
I have already won.

Moses did not write any books, let alone the book of Exodus, please read the very carefully documented proofs.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 02:57:39 PM
I've studied "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" just as you have. In fact, I probably know more about it than you do, having been educated in a liberal Catholic university, where religion and theology courses were required. I also studied for ministry at one point. So don't try to lecture me about current liberal theology. I already know it better than you do. I simply am not stupid enough to accept it as you do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: sandokhan on September 17, 2014, 03:13:36 PM
The ample proofs presented here do show that you were stupid enough to accept that Moses wrote the book of Exodus.

Do yourself a favor and read this:

http://www.awitness.org/contrabib/torah/latedate.html

Or the extraordinary book, Bible Unearthed, written by Dr. Israel Finkelstein:

http://books.google.ro/books?id=lu6ywyJr0CMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=israel+finkelstein+bible+unearthed&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4DgYVNPGD6viywOQ94HACA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=israel%20finkelstein%20bible%20unearthed&f=false


You might just learn something.





Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 03:37:01 PM
I see no purpose in reviewing stuff that I was forced to swallow in liberal left-wing unversity courses by professors that basically hated white, straight, male, Jewish persons. And ultimately God, of course. I had to read that shit once. I am all too familiar with the J, P, E, D, bullshit, and all the crap about the Bible not being written when tradition says it was, and the Exodus not having occurred, and yada, yada, yada.

My response? Bite me. Hell, I'm even familiar with the claims that Mark wrote his Gospel first, and that Matthew and Luke borrowed from him and some unknown document they call Q (from the German "Quelle" meaning "Source"). Well, of course, this is stupid. No one has ever found this mysterious "Q" document. Now, I am no Christian, but come on! How can you possibly make the claim that the Gospel writers used a source that you don't even know exists! That is just fucktarded!

So, Finkelstein can bite me. So can you, while you're at it. I've read all this shit before. I don't see the need to pollute my brain with further shit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2014, 03:46:02 PM
Arguments from Authority and Ad Hominem attacks.  Very convincing arguments, Yaakov, to be certain.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 03:53:18 PM
I see no arguments from authority at all. Ad homs, yes, intended ones. Unless you count tradition as an authority (I'm not so sure I do, at least not a valid one per se). I mean, ok, it has a vote, but not a veto, lets put it that way.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2014, 03:56:46 PM
I see no arguments from authority at all. Ad homs, yes, intended ones. Unless you count tradition as an authority (I'm not so sure I do, at least not a valid one per se). I mean, ok, it has a vote, but not a veto, lets put it that way.

This argument from authority:

I've studied "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" just as you have. In fact, I probably know more about it than you do, having been educated in a liberal Catholic university, where religion and theology courses were required. I also studied for ministry at one point. So don't try to lecture me about current liberal theology. I already know it better than you do. I simply am not stupid enough to accept it as you do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 04:03:06 PM
That's not an argument. That is simply a statement of fact. He keeps trying make a "teachable moment" out his blathering, like he's leading me to the Great Well of Enlightenment, or something. Well, the truth is, I've been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, and the hat. I don't need his "teachable moments". I probably DO know more about the subject than he does.

Again, I am not trying to make any arguments with my statement. I am not even trying to say that I can prove that Moses wrote the Torah based on the fact that I know more about "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" than he does. I am simply making the acknowledgement that I do indeed have more knowledge on the subject than he does. Again, there is no argument being offered, but simply a point being made.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2014, 04:28:49 PM
That's not an argument. That is simply as statement of fact. He keeps trying make a "teachable moment" out his blathering, like he's leading me to the Great Well of Enlightenment, or something. Well, the truth is, I've been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, and the hat. I don't need his "teachable moments". I probably DO know more about the subject than he does.

Again, I am not trying to make any arguments with my statement. I am not even trying to say that I can prove that Moses wrote the Torah based on the fact that I know more about "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" than he does. I am simply making the acknowledgement that I do indeed have more knowledge on the subject than he does. Again, there is no argument being offered, but simply a point being made.

Many arguments take the form of statements of fact, but what matters is the ends to which you made this statement of fact.  Near as I can tell you were stating something akin to the following:

"I have seen it all before, so whatever you are arguing has been considered by me and I deem it wrong."

This interpretation is borne out by you following post:

I see no purpose in reviewing stuff that I was forced to swallow in liberal left-wing unversity courses by professors that basically hated white, straight, male, Jewish persons. And ultimately God, of course. I had to read that shit once. I am all too familiar with the J, P, E, D, bullshit, and all the crap about the Bible not being written when tradition says it was, and the Exodus not having occurred, and yada, yada, yada.

My response? Bite me. Hell, I'm even familiar with the claims that Mark wrote his Gospel first, and that Matthew and Luke borrowed from him and some unknown document they call Q (from the German "Quelle" meaning "Source"). Well, of course, this is stupid. No one has ever found this mysterious "Q" document. Now, I am no Christian, but come on! How can you possibly make the claim that the Gospel writers used a source that you don't even know exists! That is just fucktarded!

So, Finkelstein can bite me. So can you, while you're at it. I've read all this shit before. I don't see the need to pollute my brain with further shit.

Where you do not refute any salient points, but merely discuss how distasteful it was to have to learn about these authors work's.  Again, your argument boils down to, "I have seen it all before (a.k.a. I am an authority) and it is wrong."; which of course is the essence of an argument of authority.  Until you provide some substantial rebuttal, Sandokhan is not worthy of any of the Ad Hominems you are heaping on him.  I never thought I would see the day that I defended Sandokhan, but there is no limit to your troll.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 04:37:36 PM
Well, I'm not claiming to be an authority, because I am not trying to convince him that he is wrong. I am simply trying to tell him that he shouldn't bother trying convince me that I am. Frankly, I don't care what he believes or does not believe. It is of no concern to me. This thread is called "Ask a Jew Anything". The purpose of said thread is for people to come in and ask me what Jews believe about a given thing, or why Jews do or do not do a thing. I am not here to argue whether or or not Judaism is true. I am here to simply present the breadth of Jewish Faith and Practice to the non-Jewish population. If someone has a constructive disagreement, well, that is fine, we can discuss that, but I am in no mood to continually defend my beliefs from someone who doesn't want to learn, but only to tear down.

I don't give a rat's ass what he believes. And I am not trying to make him accept my beliefs. My ad homs are to indicate that I think he is a fucktard, not to make him accept my beliefs. There is a difference there.

So no, I am not attempting to argue a damned thing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2014, 04:54:28 PM
Cool story bro.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 04:57:47 PM
Remember what I have said repeatedly on this thread. Jews neither know, nor particularly care, what God has or has not taught non-Jews. We know what God has taught us, and what he expects of us. What lies beyond that is quite beyond our paygrade, and none of our concern.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 17, 2014, 05:01:29 PM
I see no arguments from authority at all. Ad homs, yes, intended ones. Unless you count tradition as an authority (I'm not so sure I do, at least not a valid one per se). I mean, ok, it has a vote, but not a veto, lets put it that way.

This argument from authority:

I've studied "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" just as you have. In fact, I probably know more about it than you do, having been educated in a liberal Catholic university, where religion and theology courses were required. I also studied for ministry at one point. So don't try to lecture me about current liberal theology. I already know it better than you do. I simply am not stupid enough to accept it as you do.
Considering his own ad Hominems he throws about his own professors, im not sure he considers his education valid.  By his own insults, he probably knows only wrong things about the subject.

Jew question: why would a Jew learn christianity from a god hating atheist, then worship in a mosque, then claim to be a Jew?


Remember what I have said repeatedly on this thread. Jews neither know, nor particularly care, what God has or has not taught non-Jews. We know what God has taught us, and what he expects of us. What lies beyond that is quite beyond our paygrade, and none of our concern.
Unlesss its to kill Jews.  Amirite?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
I have studied practically every religion on the planet at one time or other. This involved visiting the mosque for a time. And since I attended a Catholic university, I knew that would involve taking religion courses. Which I wouldn't have minded had they actually taught true Catholic doctrine rather than the liberal bullshit that they actually taught. Fortunately, outside of the Religion Dept, the university in question was an excellent one, and my philosophy major (one of the few universities in the country where the majority of philosophy profs are theists) and my history major were conservative, traditional, and brilliant.

Remember that I was raised completely NON-Observant. I was less Jewish than anybody I ever knew. I began exploring spirituality when I was about 12, but I didn't start with Judaism. I came to my own Faith late. My family did not encourage me to explore Judaism at all. That was a decision I made completely on my own, comparatively recently. In fact, where I lived, there was no synagogue, so I ended up starting my search in churches.

This journey for some Jews is NOT unusual. I always knew my ethnicity was Jewish, but it was essentially in a coma, and I never looked to the religion to succor me, since I lived in a totally non-Jewish environment. Why would I? What was there to appeal to me, until I came into contact with Jews? So it was much later, after exploring Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism that I finally turned  to Judaism.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 17, 2014, 05:16:21 PM
I have studied practically every religion on the planet at one time or other.

What do you think about Theistic Satanism?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 05:35:28 PM
Theistic in what sense? In the sense that they actually acknowledge the existence of the Abrahamic God but choose to worship the rebellious angel Satan? Frankly, I think that there have been VERY FEW persons that actually have done this in history. And the few that have have generally had serious psychological and/or psychiatric problems. Most of the people down through history that have been accused of this have been old women that pissed somebody off. On the rare occasions that they have been religious non-conformists, they have usually been Jews or primitive pagans, not Satanists.

And when you do find the very rare real Theistic Satanist, again, they are usually messed up. But as a Jew, I don't acknowledge the existence of a rebellious angel turned Devil. Satan is the Prosecuting Attorney of God's Heavenly Court. Read the Book of Job for more on this. So, since I don't acknowledge the Christian or Muslim Devil, or a place of eternal punishment called Hell, I certainly consider a person who tries to worship such a being to be very messed up indeed.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 17, 2014, 05:42:27 PM
I have studied practically every religion on the planet at one time or other. This involved visiting the mosque for a time. And since I attended a Catholic university, I knew that would involve taking religion courses. Which I wouldn't have minded had they actually taught true Catholic doctrine rather than the liberal bullshit that they actually taught. Fortunately, outside of the Religion Dept, the university in question was an excellent one, and my philosophy major (one of the few universities in the country where the majority of philosophy profs are theists) and my history major were conservative, traditional, and brilliant.

Remember that I was raised completely NON-Observant. I was less Jewish than anybody I ever knew. I began exploring spirituality when I was about 12, but I didn't start with Judaism. I came to my own Faith late. My family did not encourage me to explore Judaism at all. That was a decision I made completely on my own, comparatively recently. In fact, where I lived, there was no synagogue, so I ended up starting my search in churches.

This journey for some Jews is NOT unusual. I always knew my ethnicity was Jewish, but it was essentially in a coma, and I never looked to the religion to succor me, since I lived in a totally non-Jewish environment. Why would I? What was there to appeal to me, until I came into contact with Jews? So it was much later, after exploring Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism that I finally turned  to Judaism.
This explains a few things.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 05:45:46 PM
You are quite welcome.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 17, 2014, 05:52:01 PM
I can't believe I just read a thread and found sandokhan to have a significantly more convincing argument than his opponent. I need to go lie down.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 17, 2014, 05:56:12 PM
I can't believe I just read a thread and found sandokhan to have a significantly more convincing argument than his opponent. I need to go lie down.

Of course his argument is more coherent, it's copy-pasted from various places on the web. I would say you're not agreeing with sandokhan, more so that you're agreeing with the various people he has plagiarized.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 06:04:10 PM
As I said to him, it depends on whether or not you accept the claims of modern liberal biblical scholarship. I don't. So none of his arguments affect me in any way. And to give him credit, he didn't plagiarise. He did quote and give credit from where the quotes were derived. Granted, the whole argument was based on those quotes, but still.

But his argument presupposes that his interlocutor is on the same page he is. I am not. I don't except any of the "biblical research" that liberal scholars have made since the middle of about the 19th Century, or at least very little of it. So he can't argue with me on it. There is no hoping to convince me. The whole conversation is pointless.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 17, 2014, 07:13:46 PM
As I said to him, it depends on whether or not you accept the claims of modern liberal biblical scholarship. I don't. So none of his arguments affect me in any way. And to give him credit, he didn't plagiarise. He did quote and give credit from where the quotes were derived. Granted, the whole argument was based on those quotes, but still.

But his argument presupposes that his interlocutor is on the same page he is. I am not. I don't except any of the "biblical research" that liberal scholars have made since the middle of about the 19th Century, or at least very little of it. So he can't argue with me on it. There is no hoping to convince me. The whole conversation is pointless.

(http://mamamarmalade.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/fingers-in-ears.jpg)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 07:25:45 PM
By that I meant my conversation with him. NOT the rest of you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 08:57:51 PM
VINDICTUS, remember, you are indeed as dumb as you look. Refusing to accept modern day liberal biblical scholarship is simply refusal to be taken in by the claptrap that is put out by man-hating, white-hating, mostly Jew-hating, and straight-bating Left-wing batch of morons who call themselves intellectuals.

Anyone who is stupid enough, again to use a Christian example, to accept that Matthew and Luke used Mark and a hypothetical "Q" document to write their own books, even though the "Q" document has NEVER been found, and no one has any clear idea what may have been in it, shouldn't be allowed out in public.

So, anyone who rejects the traditional Mosaic authorship of the Torah without extraordinary good reason (which these "scholars" have been unable to provide) should also not be allowed in public.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 17, 2014, 09:06:33 PM
VINDICTUS, remember, you are indeed as dumb as you look. Refusing to accept modern day liberal biblical scholarship is simply refusal to be taken in by the claptrap that is put out by man-hating, white-hating, mostly Jew-hating, and straight-bating Left-wing batch of morons who call themselves intellectuals.

Anyone who is stupid enough, again to use a Christian example, to accept that Matthew and Luke used Mark and a hypothetical "Q" document to write their own books, even though the "Q" document has NEVER been found, and no one has any clear idea what may have been in it, shouldn't be allowed out in public.

So, anyone who rejects the traditional Mosaic authorship of the Torah without extraordinary good reason (which these "scholars" have been unable to provide) should also not be allowed in public.

You can't just go and say "I don't accept that entire branch of research, because the people in charge of it are jerks. Therefore, it doesn't matter how much evidence you provide." That's not how logical arguments work. In fact, it's about five different logical fallacies rolled into one.

Please provide evidence that biblical scholarship is
Quote
claptrap that is put out by man-hating, white-hating, mostly Jew-hating, and straight-bating Left-wing batch of morons who call themselves intellectuals.
and, more importantly, that it is inaccurate. Or, just say that you don't especially care what the reality of the situation is because you prefer your version of events. Either of those is fine, but don't say the second and pretend you mean the first.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 09:14:43 PM
QUOTE: "Anyone who is stupid enough, again to use a Christian example, to accept that Matthew and Luke used Mark and a hypothetical "Q" document to write their own books, even though the "Q" document has NEVER been found, and no one has any clear idea what may have been in it, shouldn't be allowed out in public."

That is a perfect example of the "scholarship" I am talking about.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 17, 2014, 09:18:23 PM
QUOTE: "Anyone who is stupid enough, again to use a Christian example, to accept that Matthew and Luke used Mark and a hypothetical "Q" document to write their own books, even though the "Q" document has NEVER been found, and no one has any clear idea what may have been in it, shouldn't be allowed out in public."

That is a perfect example of the "scholarship" I am talking about.

You sound a lot more biased than you do logical
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 09:47:29 PM
Lets be honest. In what universe is an argument like that logical? If a court of law were trying to figure out how two different people wrote their books, any books, not necessarily the Gospels, and I as an attorney were to say to the Judge, "Sir, they used a third book that we have, and then a fourth document that no one has ever found. But we know it must exist.", how far do you think I'd get? Seriously.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 17, 2014, 10:49:46 PM
Lets be honest. In what universe is an argument like that logical? If a court of law were trying to figure out how two different people wrote their books, any books, not necessarily the Gospels, and I as an attorney were to say to the Judge, "Sir, they used a third book that we have, and then a fourth document that no one has ever found. But we know it must exist.", how far do you think I'd get? Seriously.

It's very much like the Chinese Civilisation, where the first three dynasties were determined to be mythical, now the third of those has been proven historical through archaeological and historical research. I expect the first two will as well.



Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 11:39:44 PM
Actually, no, the comparison fails. its one thing to HAVE SOMETHING in your hand. A tradition, a long-standing idea, that people have believed, at that has been the basis of your civilisation. Then history comes along and says, "guess what? You were right for the last 2000 years." Its another thing to totally invent shit up out of whole cloth to try to explain your shoddy "scholarship" and your incompetence.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 18, 2014, 12:03:47 AM
Actually, no, the comparison fails. its one thing to HAVE SOMETHING in your hand. A tradition, a long-standing idea, that people have believed, at that has been the basis of your civilisation. Then history comes along and says, "guess what? You were right for the last 2000 years." Its another thing to totally invent shit up out of whole cloth to try to explain your shoddy "scholarship" and your incompetence.

Just as easily as a lie can be perpetrated for 2,000 years, so too can a truth be hidden for 2,000 years.

Greek and Egyptian Mythology was considered factual religion and lasted for quite some time.  It was never proven false yet we think of it as such.  Do you know why?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 18, 2014, 12:04:53 AM
You have not shown any shoddy scholarship. Just an idea you disagree with.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 12:42:00 AM
Notice, I have never denied that certain aspects of Greek mythology were true. Remember Heinrich Schliemann. I don't know enough about the Egyptian stuff, although if the Bible is any witness, the God of Israel was doing what he did for several purposes, one of which was to show the weaknesses of Egyptian religion. But I can't pass judgement on it myself. Obviously a lot of it was fantastical, like gods with the head of a falcon, or that of a cat,or what-have-you. This is the kind of thing Erich von Daniken believes in, but not me.

Their scholarship is shoddy because they had bubkis, and they pulled "Q" out of their arse. When they were asked to explain what it was, they said "it must have been some collection of the sayings of Jesus". Where did they come to that conclusion? Moses, when he wrote the Exodus, had participated in the events he describes. Why the 2 million figure instead of a more believable smaller figure? I don't know, although I suspect there may be Kabbalistic meaning, or we all may be full of it, and reading badly garbled texts. The Masoretic Text is said to be the best we have, and that's what we all use. But is it possible, that however well preserved, somebody got numbers wrong? That Numbers recorded 600,00 men over the age of 20 when it should have said 60,000? Now, I am NOT making that claim. I just pulled that number out of MY arse to make a point. Or maybe there was a point to make using gematria (the art of using Hebrew letters to write numbers, each letter representing a number, much like Roman letters).

Now, PLEASE note, I am NOT claiming to know the answer. I am merely claiming that the Exodus occurred, and we will one day find evidence of that. Whether it involved 2 million persons or 60,000 persons, or 600,000 military age men, or 60,000 military age men (which is quite different than 60,000 persons total), I don't know. I have recently heard a claim for 60,000 total. But I don't remember where, and its not really important. Again, I merely claim, the Exodus occurred, and we will find proof of that eventually, just as Schliemann did with Troy.

On the other hand, good luck finding proof of a "Q", which NO ONE ever talked about until somebody invented the idea in their pea-brain in the 19th Century to explain how Mark came to be written first (which is crap; I expect the Catholic Church is right when they say that Matthew was first, and possibly originally in Hebrew, although the oldest copies that Christians possess are in Greek).

All it does is complicate matters to try to explain that Mark wrote first and that Matthew and Luke then plagiarised from not one, but TWO sources, one of which nobody has even heard of until the 19th fucking century, and even then, only in theory! You have to go back to Ockham's Razor. The simplest answer is the true one.

In both the Exodus AND in the question of the writing of the Gospel, Ockham's Razor can be applied. In the case of Exodus, our Forefathers 3500 years ago bound our culture together by the celebration of the Passover. Even the Christians celebrate the Sacrifice of the Paschal Lamb (Jesus). Easter would have no meaning if it weren't for the background of the Passover, the passing from bondage to freedom. Even the Muslims in the Qur'an acknowledge that it happened. They tell the story a bit differently, and inaccurately, but they do tell it.

Now, I won't convince you, and that's fine. I don't care at this point. Obviously it is much easier to apply Ockham's Razor to the Gospel. Which is easier to believe? That Matthew wrote first, or that Mark wrote first, and that Matthew and Luke borrowed from him and a document that some guy just made up in his head because no one has ever seen the damned thing?

Well, I've prattled on enough. Time to wait for responses. Enjoy.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spoon on September 18, 2014, 12:43:54 AM
Do you subscribe to the book of Genesis? There's some fucked up stuff in there that makes the God of Abraham's creation story seem on par with Greek/Norse/Roman mythology.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 12:59:49 AM
I believe the first 11 chapters of Genesis to be indecipherable. I do think there was a Flood, if for no other reason then that most major cultures in the world have a Flood story. As for the Creation, I'm not sure what I think about that. The talking Serpent and all that. I certainly do think that God can permit a serpent to talk if that is what he wishes to do. And in the Garden, perhaps ALL the animals talked. I don't know. Unfortunately, the Book of Genesis doesn't give us a lot of information. However, I can say that with the Sun and the Moon not having been created until the Fourth Day, you have to take at least the first three days as not necessarily being 24 hours in duration. They could have been whole eons of time for all I know.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 18, 2014, 01:49:55 AM
Quote
Now, PLEASE note, I am NOT claiming to know the answer. I am merely claiming that the Exodus occurred

This would seem to be a great big contradiction.

Quote
On the other hand, good luck finding proof of a "Q", which NO ONE ever talked about until somebody invented the idea in their pea-brain in the 19th Century to explain how Mark came to be written first (which is crap; I expect the Catholic Church is right when they say that Matthew was first, and possibly originally in Hebrew, although the oldest copies that Christians possess are in Greek).
No one talked about Germs until the 19th century either.  Just saying...

Quote
You have to go back to Ockham's Razor. The simplest answer is the true one.
Ok.
The simplest answer is that, aside from a few historical bits, most of it is fake.  Done. 


Quote
They tell the story a bit differently, and inaccurately, ...
Citation needed. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spoon on September 18, 2014, 03:13:55 AM
I believe the first 11 chapters of Genesis to be indecipherable. I do think there was a Flood, if for no other reason then that most major cultures in the world have a Flood story. As for the Creation, I'm not sure what I think about that. The talking Serpent and all that. I certainly do think that God can permit a serpent to talk if that is what he wishes to do. And in the Garden, perhaps ALL the animals talked. I don't know. Unfortunately, the Book of Genesis doesn't give us a lot of information. However, I can say that with the Sun and the Moon not having been created until the Fourth Day, you have to take at least the first three days as not necessarily being 24 hours in duration. They could have been whole eons of time for all I know.

I'm talking more about the sons of god taking human mistresses and the resulting demigod offspring (chapter 6), the Nephilim (chapter 6), the whole deal where Noah got drunk and got raped/seen(?) by Ham, resulting in Noah cursing Canaan and his descendants (chapter 9), and God's apparent ignorance, limited power etc. seen throughout Genesis. I am reading a translation said to be most true to the original Hebrew, and it reads just like any other creation myth; flawed gods, fantastic creatures, unanswered questions.

You can't just discredit the first 11 chapters of Genesis either. It is referenced constantly throughout the rest of the old testament.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 06:24:48 AM
Ah. Thank you for clarifying. I don't know what translation you're using, but the Hebrew does NOT imply that Ham raped Noah, but that he saw him & shamed him. Re: the 'sons of god', the most recent Jewish translation goes w/ 'divine beings', the meaning being unclear. They may be referring to Djinn, which have free will, rather than Angels, which do not. But certainly Djinn could produce Nephilim w/ human girls. I see no problem w/ this. As for God being limited, I'm not so sure. That may have simply been his way of sparing us from things beyond our comprehension, or better yet, the other way round. He knew we could take it then, so he gifted us w/ his Presence in ways he would never do now, as now, we'd never get it!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 18, 2014, 01:11:44 PM
What's your opinion on Lot and his daughters? Is there a Jewish interpretation of that passage that isn't completely fucked up?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 01:51:57 PM
The story of Lot (note that in Hebrew this name is pronounced with a long "o" sound rather than a short one) and his daughters is found in Genesis 19:30-38. Obviously, as you said, it seems pretty fucked up. The most flattering explanation that I have heard given of it is that, after the destruction of the Cities on the Plain (of which there were five; the Bible describes the destruction of two of them, namely Sodom and Gomorrah, but two more were also eliminated, Zoar alone being spared), Lot's daughters believed that entire human race had been wiped out.

If you read the text closely, it says, starting with verse 31: "And the first-born said unto the younger: 'Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth.'"[/u]emphasis mine. The point that was made when we talked about it was that Lot's daughters believed that all human life EVERYWHERE had been wiped off the face of the earth. They believed that they and their father were it, and that it was up to them to repopulate the planet. So THAT is why they committed incest with their father, not because they particularly wanted to. I have read further about what caused the destruction of the Cities on the Plain, and some have theorised that it might have been a nuclear explosion. It certainly is possible. God has certainly been known to be behind some pretty crazy shit back in the day, and if you believe that God allowed Oppenheimer to create the thing that wiped out two Japanese cities, well, why couldn't he have sent angels to do the same thing  back then? 

But, to answer your question, yes, it is nasty that the girls did the wham, bam thank you Ma'am with their Dad. I can't think of a single Jew today who wouldn't agree with me. There are probably all kinds of explanations for it, and I don't have my books out to look up those explanations, as they are still packed from moving (I hope that changes in the next few days, but with a sick wife, I don't want to go banging about). But we had a discussion about this in Shul awhile back, and this was what we discussed, was the idea that the girls thought that they and their Dad were the only three people left on Earth. And who wouldn't after a nuclear explosion destroys five whole cities. I suppose, if you believe its your responsibility to recreate the race, you might consider doing it with Dad after all. I don't know. Sounds a bit odd to me, too. Does that help?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 03:30:41 PM
I have read further about what caused the destruction of the Cities on the Plain, and some have theorised that it might have been a nuclear explosion. It certainly is possible. God has certainly been known to be behind some pretty crazy shit back in the day, and if you believe that God allowed Oppenheimer to create the thing that wiped out two Japanese cities, well, why couldn't he have sent angels to do the same thing  back then? 
That is probably he most retarted thing you have come out with. Nuclear explosion? Why would angels build a nuclear bomb? First, they have divine power and blow away a city with a fart and a naked flame. Second, if they have to observe physics, why would they pick a 20th century dirty weapon? Why not a 50th century one that is more precise and has no fall out?

It is disputed that the cities ever existed at all, but if they did and I had to opt for desrucion, I'd pick volcano or earthquake. Probably volcano as fire and brimstone is mentioned and Lot's wife is turned to stone (covered in ash/pumice)

My opinion is that Lot took his daughters and then blamed them. From that perspective the story starts to make a whole lot more sense.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 03:38:53 PM
THORK, first, I strongly recommend that you make use of the spell-check device on this system. "Retarted" is not a word. Nor did I say that Angels built a nuclear bomb. I said they caused a nuclear explosion. That's quite different, although the damage done is the same. And the only people that dispute whether the Cities on the Plain ever existed or not are "modern day liberal scholars" whose "scholarship" is entirely shoddy, and not worth the paper it is printed on IMHO.

And your opinion has not been asked for. Frankly, I could give a rat's ass what your opinion is. TAUSAMI asked for a Jewish response to the biblical story, and I gave him one. I could give a flying fuck about your interpretation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 04:19:38 PM
THORK, first, I strongly recommend that you make use of the spell-check device on this system. "Retarted" is not a word.
One day, when you lrn2internet, you will read this back and feel silly.

Nor did I say that Angels built a nuclear bomb. I said they caused a nuclear explosion.
That is one hell of an interpretation. I mean you are literally reading one thing, and coming to the conclusion of another. This is how sneaky Jews have used religion for war for thousands of years. It does not say anything about nuclear explosions in the Bible or any other religious text. Stop being a retart.

IMHO.
Which at this stage isn't worth very much.

And your opinion has not been asked for. Frankly, I could give a rat's ass what your opinion is. TAUSAMI asked for a Jewish response to the biblical story, and I gave him one. I could give a flying fuck about your interpretation.
This isn't your forum and I can give an opinion on anything I so choose. Its likely to be backed with a little more education than yours.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 04:26:07 PM
Someone who can't even spell "retard" correctly is not likely to have an advanced degree. I do. Notice also, fucktard, I did not say whether I thought it was a nuclear explosion. I said some scholars have interpreted it as such. Remember, you are a fucktard. You can give your opinion, but be advised that nobody cares. One, you are not a Jew, so you know nothing about the Jewish response, which is the purpose of this thread. Two, you are stupid enough to believe the Earth is flat. That automatically indicates that you have no advanced education, or, if you do, that you are what we here in Iowa call an educated idiot.

So, I call bullshit on you claiming any kind of an education. I think you are full of it. You do know how to  make up a good story, though. Keep at it, old boy. I'm sure you can fool at least a few people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 18, 2014, 05:09:46 PM
Someone who can't even spell "retard" correctly is not likely to have an advanced degree. I do.
Apparently they didn't teach you about memes when you earned your advanced degree.  I'd ask for a refund.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 05:12:55 PM
I'd understand if he only misspelled it once. But he spells it incorrectly every time he uses the word. And I do know what a meme is in the Dawkins sense of the word. And its kind of a stupid idea, really.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 18, 2014, 05:18:48 PM
Someone who can't even spell "retard" correctly is not likely to have an advanced degree. I do. Notice also, fucktard, I did not say whether I thought it was a nuclear explosion. I said some scholars have interpreted it as such. Remember, you are a fucktard. You can give your opinion, but be advised that nobody cares. One, you are not a Jew, so you know nothing about the Jewish response, which is the purpose of this thread. Two, you are stupid enough to believe the Earth is flat. That automatically indicates that you have no advanced education, or, if you do, that you are what we here in Iowa call an educated idiot.

So, I call bullshit on you claiming any kind of an education. I think you are full of it. You do know how to  make up a good story, though. Keep at it, old boy. I'm sure you can fool at least a few people.

You think angel's caused a nuclear explosion and you are condescending about education levels.  Sounds legit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 05:21:03 PM
I didn't say angels did anything. I am saying that the Four Cities on the Plain may have been destroyed by means of a nuclear explosion. How that may have occurred is not my province to explain. I am only telling you what some scholars have suggested.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 05:28:24 PM
I am saying that the Four Cities on the Plain may have been destroyed by means of a nuclear explosion.
There were 5 cities. Sodom and Gomorrah were allied with the cities of Admah, Zeboim and Bela. Also angels don't use nukes, Fucktart.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 18, 2014, 05:37:46 PM
I didn't say angels did anything. I am saying that the Four Cities on the Plain may have been destroyed by means of a nuclear explosion. How that may have occurred is not my province to explain. I am only telling you what some scholars have suggested.

Now who is retarted:

Nor did I say that Angels built a nuclear bomb. I said [angels] caused a nuclear explosion.

You will note that quote clearly state that angels caused a nuclear explosion.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 18, 2014, 05:38:16 PM
I'd understand if he only misspelled it once. But he spells it incorrectly every time he uses the word. And I do know what a meme is in the Dawkins sense of the word. And its kind of a stupid idea, really.

So you don't know what an internet meme is.  Got it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 05:49:03 PM
Forget it. He has logged off to count his money.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 05:58:24 PM
There were five cities. Only four were destroyed. Thork, at least read the book first. With your limited intelligence, I realise that may be difficult for you. I know you are barely literate, given that you can't spell the word "retard", but come on now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 06:02:09 PM
There were five cities. Only four were destroyed.
So how are the two daughters able to claim that there were no men left on earth? There is another city full of men, left intact.

Maybe all 5 were destroyed, and you are wrong?
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah#Deuterocanonical_references
Wisdom 10:6 refers to Five Cities, including Sodom, or Pentapolis: "Wisdom rescued a righteous man when the ungodly were perishing; he escaped the fire that descended on the Five Cities."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 06:05:52 PM
That is actually a good question. According to the talk I've followed, and the reading I've done, the girls thought that Zoar was going to be next on the list for God's wrath. The idea was that Lot got out of the city (really, a town; it was smaller than the other four) because he was afraid to stay there. And the girls, once they had left the town, found NO men or, for that matter, humans at all.  Mind you, I am not defending what they did. I am merely explaining their rationale. By no means do I mean to express approval.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 18, 2014, 06:11:53 PM
I'd understand if he only misspelled it once. But he spells it incorrectly every time he uses the word. And I do know what a meme is in the Dawkins sense of the word. And its kind of a stupid idea, really.


If you seriously aren't understanding this, I recommend doing a forum search for the world 'retarted'. And maybe a google search for the word 'meme'.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 06:20:05 PM
So there's 26 references to people who can't spell the word "retarded" correctly. That is ridiculous. Meanwhile, a meme is defined as the following:

QUOTE: "A meme (/ˈmiːm/ meem)[1] is "an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture."[2]" (Wikipedia).

I don't see the point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 18, 2014, 06:22:59 PM
So there's 26 references to people who can't spell the word "retarded" correctly. That is ridiculous. Meanwhile, a meme is defined as the following:

QUOTE: "A meme (/ˈmiːm/ meem)[1] is "an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture."[2]" (Wikipedia).

I don't see the point.

your retarted
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 06:32:13 PM
I am going to sign off for a bit. I've been on this thing for a long time. I think I shall go read a book or something. I'll be back later, and respond to any further questions then. Ciao for now!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 06:45:28 PM
He's gone to count money.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 18, 2014, 07:07:15 PM
Just because it is too painful to watch Yaakov stumble through this anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_meme

Quote
An Internet meme (/ˈmiːm/ MEEM) is an activity, concept, catchphrase or piece of media which spreads, often as mimicry, from person to person via the Internet.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 18, 2014, 07:58:05 PM
He's gone to count money.

I wonder if he yells at Muslims IRL as well.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 12:23:34 AM
Do you let other men shake your wife's hand?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 01:58:01 AM
That's the first time I've gotten that question. The answer is, yes. She is a non-Jew, and I don't force her to comport herself with Jewish manners. As long as she comports herself with the proper conservativism of a non-Jew, I can live with that. I myself do not shake other women's hands, unless I am forced into it in some way (ie, if it would appear grossly rude to refuse). Generally, I try to put myself in a physical stance such that I can hold my hands behind my back and when the hand comes out, and I can kindly explain that it is my custom not to shake hands with women outside the family. With Jewish women, this is not a problem, even if they are the liberal type. With non-Jewish women, this may or may not be possible. It depends on the situation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 30, 2014, 06:21:37 AM
Do you wear a Kippah?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 11:23:12 AM
Yes, I do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 30, 2014, 01:10:04 PM
I've been wondering how they are kept in place. They look like they could fall off at any moment.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 01:33:39 PM
I use hair clips. Some people use barrettes. A bald person can use double sided tape that is made for the skin.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 01:43:23 PM
That's the first time I've gotten that question. The answer is, yes. She is a non-Jew, and I don't force her to comport herself with Jewish manners. As long as she comports herself with the proper conservativism of a non-Jew, I can live with that. I myself do not shake other women's hands, unless I am forced into it in some way (ie, if it would appear grossly rude to refuse). Generally, I try to put myself in a physical stance such that I can hold my hands behind my back and when the hand comes out, and I can kindly explain that it is my custom not to shake hands with women outside the family. With Jewish women, this is not a problem, even if they are the liberal type. With non-Jewish women, this may or may not be possible. It depends on the situation.

Doesn't this strike you as immature?  Or do you feel you have no control over your sexual urges?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 02:11:25 PM
Its not a question of maturity at all. Its a question of what's appropriate or not. It is not appropriate to touch women that are outside one's family (ie, not one's wife, mother, sister, or other immediate family relative). Gentiles have similar rules, they just don't extend them as far as we do. For example, you would not want your wife to show affection to another man in certain ways. We simply take the thing a little further. Notice that when Jews lived among Jews we had fewer incidences of men and women cheating on their spouses (at least, reported incidences), and fewer divorces, and definitely lower ratings of alcoholism than the general population. Now that we live with non-Jews, our alcoholism rate is only slightly lower than the general population.

The rules are good for all concerned. They reduce the risk of misunderstanding between two people that can result in incredible pain and sorrow to three or even four people. It is unwise to change things without EXTREMELY good reason to do so.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 02:32:33 PM
Its not a question of maturity at all. Its a question of what's appropriate or not. It is not appropriate to touch women that are outside one's family (ie, not one's wife, mother, sister, or other immediate family relative). Gentiles have similar rules, they just don't extend them as far as we do. For example, you would not want your wife to show affection to another man in certain ways. We simply take the thing a little further. Notice that when Jews lived among Jews we had fewer incidences of men and women cheating on their spouses (at least, reported incidences), and fewer divorces, and definitely lower ratings of alcoholism than the general population. Now that we live with non-Jews, our alcoholism rate is only slightly lower than the general population.

Do you have a citation for your rates of divorce and alcoholism?  How are you causally linking divorce rates to hand-shaking?

Quote
The rules are good for all concerned. They reduce the risk of misunderstanding between two people that can result in incredible pain and sorrow to three or even four people. It is unwise to change things without EXTREMELY good reason to do so.


This is a general ethical choice and I think you would be hard pressed to show it as empirical fact.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 02:51:41 PM
I don't have any citations. That' something I've always heard older Jews state, particularly the ones that lived through the Holocaust, and previously lived in Shtetls. The casual link between hand-shaking and divorce is simply saying that a handshake CAN become (not necessarily WILL become) something more than that.

You are right. It is an ethical choice. Is there an empirical fact outcome? Perhaps none that I personally can prove, since I am not a statistician. I'm sure someone could look at the date and come up with proof one way or the other.

But ultimately, why don't we touch our neighbour's wife? Because the Torah has been interpreted as telling us not to. I can't recall if its in the text itself, or if one has to go to the Talmud to find it. But the Torah of God has been interpreted as requiring very strict rules about our consideration of the other sex. Since not touching one's wife during her menses is in Torah, I expect the rest of it is too. I would look the matter up now, but I am in a bit of a hurry.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 30, 2014, 04:39:17 PM
Does this apply to gay Jews?
What about women?  Can they touch men who are not their family?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 05:16:05 PM
I don't have any citations. That' something I've always heard older Jews state, particularly the ones that lived through the Holocaust, and previously lived in Shtetls. The casual link between hand-shaking and divorce is simply saying that a handshake CAN become (not necessarily WILL become) something more than that.

You are right. It is an ethical choice. Is there an empirical fact outcome? Perhaps none that I personally can prove, since I am not a statistician. I'm sure someone could look at the date and come up with proof one way or the other.

But ultimately, why don't we touch our neighbour's wife? Because the Torah has been interpreted as telling us not to. I can't recall if its in the text itself, or if one has to go to the Talmud to find it. But the Torah of God has been interpreted as requiring very strict rules about our consideration of the other sex. Since not touching one's wife during her menses is in Torah, I expect the rest of it is too. I would look the matter up now, but I am in a bit of a hurry.

From what I saw, the prohibition on familar touching of those outside your family is in Leviticus.

This whole thing just smacks of the kind of irrationality that plagues the religious.  Once again, you have decided that one law in the Torah (no familiar touching of those outside your family) should still apply, but others should not (Execution for breaking the Sabbath), with no particularly good criteria.  They are all in the Torah, why dont you follow them all?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 06:57:22 PM
Well, to be blunt, if you violate the Sabbath in some parts of the world (say, KJ), the only reason they WON'T execute you is because they don't have the authority to do so. If they could, I expect they probably would.

Israel is governed largely by secular Jews who don't even worry about touching across gender lines, let alone other violations of the  Torah. So that's not relevant.

I would strongly advise you, if you are ever in KJ, or any place like it (there are several such communities in the USA, and quite a few in Israel), DON'T go and break the rules of Torah. You will be ridden out of town on a rail at the very least, and possibly worse. For example, show up to KJ some time, ladies, wearing daisey dukes and a halter-top and start wandering around. I can pretty much assure you that within about five or ten minutes, you WILL get stones thrown at you until you either one, leave, or two, are seriously injured or killed. And no, don't expect some "good Samaritan" to call the outside authorities to help you. Won't happen. The same is true for men who misbehave or get into mischief.

So, remember. Just because the Jews you SEE don't kill each other for violating Sabbath doesn't mean it couldn't happen. It just means that the Jews you see in the public eye are the liberal Jews or the non-religious Jews. The same Jews that touch each other outside the family are the ones who don't worry about violating the sabbath. The ones who won't touch each other are the same who would not violate the Sabbath, and so would do fine in some place like KJ.

And as men are to women, so women are to men. The restrictions are the same. Gay Jews are not contemplated in this scheme of things, obviously. When the text was written, no one really gave that much thought, I don't suppose. At the time, homosexuality was understood to be forbidden outright under penalty of death. As we've come to differently understand human sexualities, I am not sure what that may or may not do to the traditional standards. Probably nothing. Since the majority of men are straight, as are the majority of women, I expect that there won't be much change in the question of who may touch whom, especially since the Bible has spoken clearly on the matter. The Bible never spoke clearly on the matter of homosexuality. But on the matter of who can touch whom, it does.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 06:58:57 PM
Well, to be blunt, if you violate the Sabbath in some parts of the world (say, KJ), the only reason they WON'T execute you is because they don't have the authority to do so. If they could, I expect they probably would.

Israel is governed largely by secular Jews who don't even worry about touching across gender lines, let alone other violations of the  Torah. So that's not relevant.

I would strongly advise you, if you are ever in KJ, or any place like it (there are several such communities in the USA, and quite a few in Israel), DON'T go and break the rules of Torah. You will be ridden out of town on a rail at the very least, and possibly worse. For example, show up to KJ some time, ladies, wearing daisey dukes and a halter-top and start wandering around. I can pretty much assure you that within about five or ten minutes, you WILL get stones thrown at you until you either one, leave, or two, are seriously injured or killed. And no, don't expect some "good Samaritan" to call the outside authorities to help you. Won't happen. The same is true for men who misbehave or get into mischief.

So, remember. Just because the Jews you SEE don't kill each other for violating Sabbath doesn't mean it couldn't happen. It just means that the Jews you see in the public eye are the liberal Jews or the non-religious Jews. The same Jews that touch each other outside the family are the ones who don't worry about violating the sabbath. The ones who won't touch each other are the same who would not violate the Sabbath, and so would do fine in some place like KJ.

And as men are to women, so women are to men. The restrictions are to men. Gay Jews are not contemplated in this scheme of things, obviously. When the text was written, no one really gave that much thought, I don't suppose. At the time, homosexuality was understood to be forbidden outright under penalty of death. As we've come to differently understand human sexualities, I am not sure what that may or may not do to the traditional standards. Probably nothing. Since the majority of men are straight, as are the majority of women, I expect that there won't be much change in the question of who may touch whom, especially since the Bible has spoken clearly on the matter. The Bible never spoke clearly on the matter of homosexuality. But on the matter of who can touch whom, it does.

How is this not completely barbaric?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 07:02:43 PM
Please note the revision in my last paragraph. And no, it is not barbaric at all. It is a way of governing people, and keeping the passions from ruling. What's more, it seems to have worked for 4500 years.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 30, 2014, 07:03:02 PM
And Jews think themselves better than Muslims...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 07:05:56 PM
The difference is that we don't want to impose our beliefs on non-Jews. The Muslims do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: EnigmaZV on September 30, 2014, 07:38:00 PM
The difference is that we don't want to impose our beliefs on non-Jews. The Muslims do.

Well, to be blunt, if you violate the Sabbath in some parts of the world (say, KJ), the only reason they WON'T execute you is because they don't have the authority to do so. If they could, I expect they probably would.

How do you reconcile these two statements?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 30, 2014, 07:41:02 PM
Annnd Yaakov just explained how some Jews are just as bad as some Muslims. Oy vey!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 30, 2014, 07:43:49 PM
What is KJ?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 08:09:46 PM
KJ is Kiryas Joel, a town in New York that is 99% Jewish, nearly all of the Satmar Hasidic group, that essentially dominates everything to do with the town . And I reconcile the statements by saying that the people of KJ aren't seeking to make non-Jews live there. Yes, they are a bit nasty toward their neighbours, and they do want to expand, but not so as to acquire the land and property in which non-Jews are now living. Rather, they want to acquire what is now empty land and then build on it to allow their ever growing population room to expand.

But yes, if you are stupid enough to go into an area that is predominantly Jewish, and attempt to impose your beliefs on the native population, then you deserve whatever happens to you, including stoning, frankly. I have no problem if the people in KJ want to stone the hypothetical girl wearing Daisy Dukes in the middle of town.

In fact, I wouldn't even object to Muslims in London feeling the same way, except for one minor difference. They took over a portion of the main city that people have to travel through. Nobody HAS to travel to or through KJ. It is easily avoidable. Plus, I'm not worried about the people of KJ being good citizens. They don't feel the need to blow shit up. The Muslims do. But if the Muslims wanted to be left alone and follow their own unusual customs, it wouldn't bother me at all as such. I just don't trust the bastards.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 08:17:17 PM
KJ is Kiryas Joel, a town in New York that is 99% Jewish, nearly all of the Satmar Hasidic group, that essentially dominates everything to do with the town . And I reconcile the statements by saying that the people of KJ aren't seeking to make non-Jews live there. Yes, they are a bit nasty toward their neighbours, and they do want to expand, but not so as to acquire the land and property in which non-Jews are now living. Rather, they want to acquire what is now empty land and then build on it to allow their ever growing population room to expand.

But yes, if you are stupid enough to go into an area that is predominantly Jewish, and attempt to impose your beliefs on the native population, then you deserve whatever happens to you, including stoning, frankly. I have no problem if the people in KJ want to stone the hypothetical girl wearing Daisy Dukes in the middle of town.

In fact, I wouldn't even object to Muslims in London feeling the same way, except for one minor difference. They took over a portion of the main city that people have to travel through. Nobody HAS to travel to or through KJ. It is easily avoidable. Plus, I'm not worried about the people of KJ being good citizens. They don't feel the need to blow shit up. The Muslims do. But if the Muslims wanted to be left alone and follow their own unusual customs, it wouldn't bother me at all as such. I just don't trust the bastards.

They are not native to KJ and they are governed by the laws of the USA.  Why dont they have to follow them?  Throwing a rock at someone for not following their religious belief is utterly illegal, immoral and unconstitutional.  They should be deported and if they don't want to leave, they should be shot. (Sound familiar?)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 08:22:54 PM
Actually, they are native to Kiryas Joel. It was founded in 1979, and that is when the Grand Rabbi (who selected the location for it) and the families that initiated the profect moved there after the land was bought. You can't be more native than that.

Throwing said rock is certainly not immoral to the person throwing it. It is not in the constitution one way or the other. Whether its illegal or not may or may not depend on whether you're standing inside KJ or not.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 08:39:55 PM
Actually, they are native to Kiryas Joel. It was founded in 1979, and that is when the Grand Rabbi (who selected the location for it) and the families that initiated the profect moved there after the land was bought. You can't be more native than that.

They are in New York right and subject to the laws of that state and the USA?

Quote
Throwing said rock is certainly not immoral to the person throwing it.
  So what?  The law is an unreasonable infringement on someone's right to life.  There are very few acts that could be considered so obviously immoral as throwing a rock at someone for not conforming to their beliefs.  This is getting more barbaric by the minute.

Quote
It is not in the constitution one way or the other.

You are not allowed to make unreasonable restrictions on people's freedom of religion in the States.  I guarantee you, not a judge in the country would find that it is a reasonable restriction to pelt someone with rocks.

Quote
Whether its illegal or not may or may not depend on whether you're standing inside KJ or not.

Nope.  Criminal activity is governed by the State legislature.  What are you smoking man?

Interesting to read that there have been a number of cases brought against KJ for impinging constitutional rights, all of which they have lost, and there is currently a case to dissolve the municipality on the grounds that it is a corrupt theocracy in practice.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 08:56:26 PM
Actually, I tend to agree more than disagree, but that has been their position, and they may have lost all the court cases, but they continue to exist. I suspect probably for several reasons:

1. They probably have appealed each case from hell to breakfast.
2. I expect that given the behaviour of Muslims both in England AND here, there is likely a tendency among officials not to want to get involved.
3. Anyone who does get involved risks being accused of anti-Semitism or worse.

And on a personal level, I'll be honest. You go into somebody's shit, you should probably do as the Romans do. That's just a personal opinion, and I'm not saying they should back it up with stoning (that's a bit much), but still, its called, be a little sensitive, fucker, or go home.

I have to go. I'll see you all later.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 08:59:23 PM
And on a personal level, I'll be honest. You go into somebody's shit, you should probably do as the Romans do. That's just a personal opinion, and I'm not saying they should back it up with stoning (that's a bit much), but still, its called, be a little sensitive, fucker, or go home.

Exactly.  They should conform to the laws of the USA.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 30, 2014, 09:16:31 PM
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel,_New_York
According to 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation. More than two-thirds of residents live below the federal poverty line and 40% receive food stamps

Yep, religion sure is great.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 09:17:43 PM
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel,_New_York
According to 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation. More than two-thirds of residents live below the federal poverty line and 40% receive food stamps

Yep, religion sure is great.

That is not so much a symptom of religiosity so much as cultural xenophobia I think.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 30, 2014, 09:24:40 PM
That's true, I'm just trying to stir the pot. I should have specified Judaism for greater rustles.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 11:21:32 PM
Fair enough. I don't know why a pack of Jewish barbarians would be great though.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 11:34:09 PM
Well, most of us know Vindictus is as stupid as he looks. But it is true that they do have the highest poverty rate in the USA. That again, is not so much from religion as it is from the social rules that give them VERY large families with only one income. It tends to be from an over literal interpretation of religion, if anything.

But it does also have its roots in xenophobia as well. Most Jews in America tend to regard KJ as kind of the the unwelcome stinky dog that sits under the hutch and barks at everybody, that nobody really wants, but can't bring ourselves to get rid of. As much as they may give the rest of us a rather bad name, they are still family.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 11:40:21 PM
Well, most of us know Vindictus is as stupid as he looks.

I have no idea how he looks so.. Yeah.

Quote
But it is true that they do have the highest poverty rate in the USA. That again, is not so much from religion as it is from the social rules that give them VERY large families with only one income. It tends to be from an over literal interpretation of religion, if anything.

Their social rules come from their religion.

But it does also have its roots in xenophobia as well. Most Jews in America tend to regard KJ as kind of the the unwelcome stinky dog that sits under the hutch and barks at everybody, that nobody really wants, but can't bring ourselves to get rid of. As much as they may give the rest of us a rather bad name, they are still family.
[/quote]

Which is exactly why Sam Harris said religious moderates are the issue. If moderates weren't pussies then all the rock throwing religious nut bags would be banished to the annals of history.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 11:55:58 PM
Well, the people of KJ aren't really harming anyone. If you don't like the way they live, don't go there. No one is required to go there. It is not necessary to pass through KJ to get where you are going. In fact, its rather out of the way. The only time KJ ever comes up as a problem is when the Township of Monroe comes up, because it is by far the largest Village in the Township. This gives it a disproportionate amount of power in the Township electoral and other political processes. And when everyone votes the way the Grand Rabbi asks them to vote, this can be interpreted as undercutting the democratic principles on which the Republic was founded. Frankly, I am inclined to agree. Am I sure as to how to solve the situation? Not at all. If KJ became its own Township, that may make as many problems for the other three villages as it solves. I am not from KJ, and don't keep up with local politics. I have a hard enough time following what happens here in Iowa.

But I would like to see the residents of KJ be able to live the life to which they are accustomed, and to do so with only minimal interference on the life of the Gentile population, or for that matter, only minimal influence of the Gentiles on the Jewish population.

Surely, there must be a way. It must only be found.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 01, 2014, 12:13:45 AM
Yeah. Move to Israel.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 01, 2014, 12:32:29 AM
New York most likely tolerates such a barbaric town for the same reason Europe tolerates Muslim communities. The authorities fear retributive backlash in the form of "ow, my religious rights!" even though it's an obvious case of the religion pushing on other people, not the opposite. And Yaakov, you can't say "well, just don't go there." This is a civilized country where anywhere one goes, they will (or at least should) receive their rights. No religious text trumps federal law.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 01, 2014, 03:38:52 AM
Actually, they are native to Kiryas Joel. It was founded in 1979, and that is when the Grand Rabbi (who selected the location for it) and the families that initiated the profect moved there after the land was bought. You can't be more native than that.

Throwing said rock is certainly not immoral to the person throwing it. It is not in the constitution one way or the other. Whether its illegal or not may or may not depend on whether you're standing inside KJ or not.

Wait. So these Americans are native to their town and therefore can't morally be deported from it, but Palestinians are not native to their land and can morally be deported from it? How is that in any way logical?

It doesn't really matter if the person who threw the rock thought it was moral. Moral relativism is bullshit. It doesn't really matter whether or not Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. Any hypothetical people throwing stones at women for wearing revealing clothes should be imprisoned for attempted (or, if they actually kill the person, 1st degree) murder and probably hate crimes. I'd be upset if they got less than 10 years.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 01, 2014, 04:49:58 AM
New York most likely tolerates such a barbaric town for the same reason Europe tolerates Muslim communities. The authorities fear retributive backlash in the form of "ow, my religious rights!" even though it's an obvious case of the religion pushing on other people, not the opposite. And Yaakov, you can't say "well, just don't go there." This is a civilized country where anywhere one goes, they will (or at least should) receive their rights. No religious text trumps federal law.

Like I said, no Jew outside of KJ likes to admit KJ even exists to non-Jews. The fact that I am even willing to do so in this forum makes me unusual by most Jewish standards. KJ is part of the family. That doesn't mean we have to LIKE it being a part of the family. They take being Jewish a little further than is necessary, by all counts.

I mean, look. I used to travel to the Jewish part of Nashville. It was 85% Jewish. People respected the Sabbath insofar as most places were not open Saturdays, and those that were were delicate about it. Most groceries offered Kosher food, and made a point to keep non-kosher stuff out of the way. Most places of work would never have attempted to compel a Jew to work on the Sabbath. The Synagogues were all respected, and had places of honour in the section of town.

It was great. And ten minutes away by car, you were back in Gentile Nashville land. And everybody got along fine. KJ deliberately seems to intentionally stoke anger among Gentiles. I'm not sure how much of that is the fault of KJ, and  how much of that is due to the impatience of the Gentile population. Frankly, I think its a little of both.

I mean, lets be straight with each other. A shtetl, which is what KJ is, exists so that the Jews living there can more easily function without giving discomfort to non-Jews. If I am the kind of Jew that needs to live a strict, almost cloistered life among my fellow Jews, without contact with the non-Jewish world, speaking only Yiddish and Hebrew (or mostly such), and never stepping foot outside the Jewish world, spending all my time working for my Jewish employer and praying at the Shul, and studying in Yeshiva, then would it not be better if I lived with other Jews?

Would it not be easier for you? As a non-Jew, do you really want to live among such people, who would make your lives so difficult? If I work for you, and I demand my religious rights, to pray three times a day at work, to have all the Jewish holidays off from work, to demand a separate kitchen in the breakroom so that I can eat kosher, aren't you going to welcome the chance for me to live elsewhere in the state?

I'm not that extreme. I consider myself fairly traditional, but by no means to that level. Granted, I don't work. I don't know whether I could work or not in the Gentile world. As a professor, maybe. I have before. But a normal 9-5 job? Where I would have to ask permission to pray three times a day? I don't know. Where I would need permission for my holidays? Well, that would be a bit of a problem. I suppose it would depend. So, being on disability, and being an academic and writer may be a blessing at the moment, although I eventually hope to make money from writing, and get off the disability.

Anyway, I think you see my point. I have to run at the moment, as its time for bed. But consider the above before you judge KJ too harshly. See you all tomorrow.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 01, 2014, 08:19:14 AM
They bus their people to the nearest mall once a week.
They buy a lot of stuff.
Then return much of it the next week.

They're rude, angry, and constantly attempting to gain more things such as water.  m.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140409/NEWS/140409680&template=wapart


And annexing territory.
www.co.orange.ny.us/content/124/1362/16386/16492.aspx
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 01, 2014, 09:56:29 AM
If KJ is poor, does that mean they don't have any Jew Gold?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 01, 2014, 11:11:24 AM
If KJ is poor, does that mean they don't have any Jew Gold?
KJ is not technically poor.  The people who live there are poor but the township is not.  This is because, as I understand it, the township owns all the money the people generate.  Or at least most of it.

This allows them to maintain food stamps and welfare status while allowing the town to have enough money to casuAlly build a $45 million dollar water pipe to take water from two towns AND enough money to bump the pipe size up after the project was approved.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 01, 2014, 12:02:19 PM
Yes, I have heard about the alleged shopping practices. IF that is true,  then that is clearly quite rude. The key word being IF. I'm also familiar with them attempting to annex territory. They say they are doing it to accomodate their increasing popuation's need for water. Their neighbours say that it would from the property values of their (the neighbour's) own housing if high rise) apts were built on the land that currently is natural land, with nothing on it. My own opinion on that is mixed. Clearly people need a place to live. I would need to study to situation out before I determined whether KJ needed for land or not. I simply can't answer that. I don't think the neighbour's home values are relevant at all. What IS relevant is, do people have a place to live or not? If yes, then don't annex shit. If no, then take the territory. Its that simple.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 01, 2014, 01:09:33 PM
Yes, I have heard about the alleged shopping practices. IF that is true,  then that is clearly quite rude. The key word being IF. I'm also familiar with theme attempting to annex territory. They say they are doing it to accomodate their increasing popuation's need for water. Their neighbours say that it would from the property values of their (the neighbour's) own housing if high rise) apts were built on the land that currently is natural land, with nothing on it. My own opinion on that is mixed. Clearly people need a place to live. I would need to study to situation out before I determined whether KJ needed for land or not. I simply can't answer that. I don't think the neighbour's home values are relevant at all. What IS relevant is, do people have a place to live or not? If yes, thebn don't annex shit. If no, then take the territory. Its that simple.
There is no if.  My wife saw them every week at Macy's.

And if KJ has so many people on welfare, why should they be allowed to increase their population so much?  They should just move to Israel.  Or better yet, be relocated to Israel with 6 months pay.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 01, 2014, 01:12:13 PM
Yes, I have heard about the alleged shopping practices. IF that is true,  then that is clearly quite rude. The key word being IF. I'm also familiar with theme attempting to annex territory. They say they are doing it to accomodate their increasing popuation's need for water. Their neighbours say that it would from the property values of their (the neighbour's) own housing if high rise) apts were built on the land that currently is natural land, with nothing on it. My own opinion on that is mixed. Clearly people need a place to live. I would need to study to situation out before I determined whether KJ needed for land or not. I simply can't answer that. I don't think the neighbour's home values are relevant at all. What IS relevant is, do people have a place to live or not? If yes, thebn don't annex shit. If no, then take the territory. Its that simple.

No it's not that simple. There are laws in the USA don't you know. Just because a bunch of barbaric fundamentalists don't care does not mean they are exempt.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 01, 2014, 01:42:22 PM
Well, from what I am reading, it sounds like they are attempting to follow at least form of law in the process of annexation. Obviously. They would have to be. It would be rather hard to just walk into a place and take it in this country, although in other countries it could be done. Now, as to whether they are following the spirit of things, I suppose that depends on who you talk to. But the very fact that they ARE American citizens means you can't deport them. "Palestinians" are not Israeli citizens. They can and should be deported. Of course, that does not speak for the 22% of Arabs within the Green Line who are, and who I would be inclined to let remain in Israel as long as they took an oath of obedience to the Israeli State, many of whom have already done so.

So there are very few similarities between "Palestinians" who are NOT citizens of Israel and residents of KJ who ARE citizens of the USA. Even if they do behave badly, and I have seen no proof that they do per se, they are still operating at least under form of law. But, as I have said before, they have managed to get themselves quite a reputation, I know that, even in the Jewish community. Someone said awhile ago that if I had heard of KJ, I either lived in the area, or they were quite (in)famous. Well, truth be told, its the latter. I live in Iowa.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 01, 2014, 01:46:15 PM
Palestinians were citizens of where they were living until it was taken from them no?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 01, 2014, 03:01:11 PM
Ah, not really. Egypt controlled the Gaza, and Jordan controlled the West Bank. These territories were taken by Israel in wars started by Arabs, and lost by them. At a later time, both Egypt and Jordan gave up claims to both areas. According to the much vaunted international law, when a country gives up territory in a formal way, the obligation of said country is to allow its citizens to move into the territory it still controls. So, for example, if the United States were to formally surrender control of California to California itself or to any other entity, any American citizen would have to right to move into American territory still claimed by the United States. Neither Egypt nor Jordan permitted the "Palestinians" to do that. Therefore, the "Palestinians" became stateless, since both the Gaza and the West Bank were under, and in the case of the West Bank still is under, the military administration of Israel. They did NOT summarily gain the right to independence, which they had NEVER claimed before. In fact, "Palestine" had always claimed to be a part of Syria throughout most of its history until the establishment of the State of Israel.

As stateless persons, "Palestinians" are citizens of nowhere and nothing, and have no claim to a nationality. International law gives them that right, which means that Egypt and Jordan are both obligated to fulfill their duties, and by not doing so, both nations are derelict in their duties. That may be unfortunate for the people involved, but it is hardly Israel's problem. Since it has been MADE Israel's problem, Israel has no choice but to deal with the problem in a military manner.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 01, 2014, 04:32:43 PM
I don't think you should start citing International Law to support Israeli claims. It has not looked favorably on it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 01, 2014, 04:36:46 PM
Actually, they are native to Kiryas Joel. It was founded in 1979, and that is when the Grand Rabbi (who selected the location for it) and the families that initiated the profect moved there after the land was bought. You can't be more native than that.
I don't think that's what native means.  How can you be native to a place where you weren't born?  ???
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 01, 2014, 08:24:12 PM
One question that's been bugging me for some time about Jews...

How many Jews does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 01, 2014, 08:34:20 PM
I can cite international law as much as I like. The fact that the so-called "arbiters" of international law are anti-Semitic and anti-Israel is not my fault. So what you are telling me is that when it works in the favour of non-Jews, international law can be used. But when it doesn't, it can't be? My only response to that is, go fuck yourself. If the UN wasn't such a hypocritical fucking joke that needed to be abolished straightaway, Israel would be judged in the right 90% of the time. I used your much vaunted international law to prove a point, and make you look stupid, and I succeeded. Ultimately, I believe that the UN and the ICC should be abolished and their buildings incinerated, preferably with the members still in them. So like I said, go fuck yourself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 01, 2014, 08:39:05 PM
Wow! Chill.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 01, 2014, 08:45:24 PM
I can cite international law as much as I like. The fact that the so-called "arbiters" of international law are anti-Semitic and anti-Israel is not my fault. So what you are telling me is that when it works in the favour of non-Jews, international law can be used. But when it doesn't, it can't be? My only response to that is, go fuck yourself. If the UN wasn't such a hypocritical fucking joke that needed to be abolished straightaway, Israel would be judged in the right 90% of the time. I used your much vaunted international law to prove a point, and make you look stupid, and I succeeded. Ultimately, I believe that the UN and the ICC should be abolished and their buildings incinerated, preferably with the members still in them. So like I said, go fuck yourself.

YHWH called. He's disappointed in all the foul language you've been using. He will flood 4 cities because of this.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 01, 2014, 09:20:48 PM
I can cite international law as much as I like. The fact that the so-called "arbiters" of international law are anti-Semitic and anti-Israel is not my fault. So what you are telling me is that when it works in the favour of non-Jews, international law can be used. But when it doesn't, it can't be? My only response to that is, go fuck yourself. If the UN wasn't such a hypocritical fucking joke that needed to be abolished straightaway, Israel would be judged in the right 90% of the time. I used your much vaunted international law to prove a point, and make you look stupid, and I succeeded. Ultimately, I believe that the UN and the ICC should be abolished and their buildings incinerated, preferably with the members still in them. So like I said, go fuck yourself.

Relax man.  You previously rejected the rulings of international law when they were against Israel, and now choose to hold them up when they are against Palestinians, this is hypocrisy at its finest.  You just can't have it both ways is all I am saying.  So although you may think you made me look stupid, I dont think anyone agrees with you (except perhaps KJers, but they dont have interwebs I imagine), and you are being pretty uncivil.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 01, 2014, 11:16:08 PM
I can find a whole country that agrees with me. Its called Israel. You may have heard of it. And a good portion of the US and Canada seem to as well, unless you count the idiot President we currently have, with his Left-wing minions who don't have a clue how to conduct foreign policy. A trained fucking polar bear with a oujia board and a set of dice could do a better job.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 02, 2014, 12:40:23 AM
I can find a whole country that agrees with me. Its called Israel. You may have heard of it. And a good portion of the US and Canada seem to as well, unless you count the idiot President we currently have, with his Left-wing minions who don't have a clue how to conduct foreign policy. A trained fucking polar bear with a oujia board and a set of dice could do a better job.
I'd say this was an argument ad populum but at 0.12% of the total population I don't think that counts.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 02, 2014, 02:41:28 AM
And I would say that since humans are not always logical, you must be prepared to accept that neither side will be necessarily. And since "Palestinians" are only one step up from the higher primates... I mean, seriously. Only the latest models can actually talk. The rest of them are still swinging from their tails.

But that is beside the point. The point remains that they don't belong there, and never will. All "Palestinians" in Greater Israel must be deported, and those who refuse to leave must be forced out at gun point. Its a very simple problem with an easy solution, really.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 02, 2014, 02:58:14 AM
And since "Palestinians" are only one step up from the higher primates... I mean, seriously. Only the latest models can actually talk. The rest of them are still swinging from their tails.
Wow.  With an attitude like that, it's no wonder the Palestinians hate you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 02, 2014, 03:39:41 AM
Take a number, wait in line...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 02, 2014, 04:48:47 AM
This is hilarious.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 02, 2014, 05:28:07 AM
I can find a whole country that agrees with me. Its called Israel. You may have heard of it. And a good portion of the US and Canada seem to as well, unless you count the idiot President we currently have, with his Left-wing minions who don't have a clue how to conduct foreign policy. A trained fucking polar bear with a oujia board and a set of dice could do a better job.

Following this logic, since Muslims have more countries agreeing with them than you do, they must be correct?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 02, 2014, 05:45:41 AM
But the Jews are the chosen people! How can they be wrong???
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 02, 2014, 06:18:13 AM
And since "Palestinians" are only one step up from the higher primates... I mean, seriously. Only the latest models can actually talk. The rest of them are still swinging from their tails.
Wow.  With an attitude like that, it's no wonder the Palestinians hate you.

In the immortal words of Tom Lehrer: Everybody hates the jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 02, 2014, 10:00:58 AM
My only response to that is, go fuck yourself. If the UN wasn't such a hypocritical fucking joke that needed to be abolished straightaway, Israel would be judged in the right 90% of the time. I used your much vaunted international law to prove a point, and make you look stupid, and I succeeded. Ultimately, I believe that the UN and the ICC should be abolished and their buildings incinerated, preferably with the members still in them. So like I said, go fuck yourself.

Hey, Yaakov, remember this?

Yaakov, please keep the personal insults out of your posts. You're welcome to think that Thork/Saddam/everyone is a terrible sub-human, and you're welcome to express these views in Angry Ranting and Complete Nonsense, but this is not something that will be allowed in the upper fora. You've been warned about this before by Junker and you've clearly ignored it, so next time we're gonna have to start handing out short bans.

I'm sorry, but I feel that we've already pushed the line quite far by being so patient with you. Two-day ban it is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 02, 2014, 10:10:59 AM
2 days is a bit soft, isn't it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 02, 2014, 10:14:31 AM
2 days is a bit soft, isn't it?
If it doesn't work, subsequent bans will get bigger.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spanner34.5 on October 02, 2014, 01:14:54 PM
Male circumcision is not mutilation and never has been. It is widely done in the the USA by non-Jews simply as a health measure, to aid in the cleaning of the penis.

There has never been any practice of female cutting of any sort by Jews.

On a male, the pain, if any, is very brief.
It appears that your definition of mutilation disagrees with mine.



It also appears that your definition of mutilation disagrees with dictionaries.
QUOTE
Some ethnic groups practice ritual mutilation, e.g. circumcision, scarification, burning, flagellation, tattooing, or wheeling, as part of a rite of passage. In some cases, the term may apply to treatment of dead bodies, such as soldiers mutilated after they have been killed by an enemy.
Anyone promoting genital mutilation of children, male or female, should be banned forever.

Consenting adults should be allowed to mutilate themselves, if they wish. Subjecting minors is just plain wrong!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 04, 2014, 10:29:35 AM
QUOTE: "Anyone promoting genital mutilation of children, male or female, should be banned forever. Consenting adults should be allowed to mutilate themselves, if they wish. Subjecting minors is just plain wrong!"

 Ok. Let's deal with this rude and immature comment first, shall we (NOTE TO CENSORS: Not an insult to the person who made the remarks, but rather a commentary on the remarks themselves; there is a difference)?

Point One: 1. I am sure that if you looked up the word "bris" in a Hebrew dictionary, you would get a different definition. Point Two: 2. Male circumcision is practiced by non-Jews often in the USA as a health measure to aid in the cleaning of the penis. It causes very little or no pain, and in no way damages the penis. FGM, on the other hand, serves no valid purposes, is not backed by ANY religious practices whatsoever, and causes permanent and lasting harm to the female genitalia, aside from being horrifically painful. Conclusion: My advice, Spanner, would be to grow up, and cease to be an anti-Semitic, uninformed child, and begin to act like an adult (NOTE TO CENSORS: Also not an insult, but rather, a fair observation on the maturity or lack thereof of a person). That would benefit us all.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 04, 2014, 02:57:59 PM
(NOTE TO CENSORS: Also not an insult, but rather, a fair observation on the maturity or lack thereof of a person)

No, I don't think so. Have another break.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 04, 2014, 08:47:05 PM
Well,  Spanner clearly doesn't understand Jews. I won't go so far as to call him anti-Semitic (yet), and I won't call him a child, which he obviously is not. And it appears that the Moderators tend to  be a little sensitive on this forum when it comes to perceived insults. As for not understanding Jews, that is a common problem. Spanner is hardly the first, nor will he be the last, to have that problem.

Circumcision, as most people know, is an ancient practice, performed by religious requirement by both Jews and Muslims. Jews always do it at day 8 of a male child's life. Muslims do it at varying ages, sometimes as late as 13 years old (which is how old Ishmael was when it was done to him [OUCH]). When done to an infant, there is only minor pain, and no damage done to the penis.

When done to a thirteen-year-old or other older person, it is minor surgery, and does hurt, and requires a recovery period of anything from several days to a few weeks depending on the person. Even urinating can be painful, and as for sex, forget about it. In fact, a Jewish parent is doing his son a favor by doing it in their infancy when the pain is minor, the recovery period only about 2 days or less, and the need for sex non-existent. Urination is not painful after the experience, even during the first two days, from what I am told. Far better to do it when one is 8 days old then when one is an adult or older child. God! Who in their right mind would want to do it then!

So all that having been said, is there anything left to be said on this?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 04, 2014, 08:54:10 PM
There's a non-zero risk of complications with can lead to the amputation of the penis or even death. How can you justify that? We're talking about newborn babies here and you want to risk seriously disfiguring or killing them?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 04, 2014, 08:57:27 PM
[...]and no damage done to the penis.

Um... did nobody teach you what circumcision does?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 04, 2014, 09:03:31 PM
And it appears that the Moderators tend to  be a little sensitive on this forum when it comes to perceived insults.
Sensitive? We've literally ignored your shit for months.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 04, 2014, 09:05:11 PM
1. Circumcision LOWERS the risk of getting HIV/AIDS from a female partner.
2. "Injury to the penis or glans. With sharp instruments and human tissue, injury is always a possibility and, to parents, a big concern. Historically there have been rare instances of amputation or partial amputation of the glans or penis, but this is a freak occurrence. In fact, a 2010 British review of more than 16 studies on infant circumcision worldwide found a zero percent rate of serious complications. More common is a partial circumcision, where some foreskin is left, which can cause irritation, phimosis, and problems that may require revision surgery later." Quotation from http://www.parenting.com/health-guide/circumcision/circumcision-risks
3."Consider hygiene. Circumcision makes it easier to clean the penis, although it is not difficult to learn to clean under the foreskin. If an uncircumcised penis isn’t properly cleaned, smegma can accumulate under the foreskin and cause infection or adhesions. According to the AAP, it is proper hygiene that is critical to an infant’s health, not his circumcision status." same source.

I am well aware of what circumcision does to the penis. It does NOT harm the penis. It removes the foreskin, which is NOT a part of the penis itself, but rather, is the foreskin, which is separate.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 04, 2014, 09:06:03 PM
Yaakov, most forums would have permabanned you about a thousand posts ago. Don't complain about the mods. They're very nice to you.

Also, posting under an alt after getting banned is poor form. At least pretend to be someone else.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 04, 2014, 09:15:41 PM
It does NOT harm the penis. It removes the foreskin, which is NOT a part of the penis itself, but rather, is the foreskin, which is separate.

It becomes separate only once you remove it.

At least pretend to be someone else.

I wouldn't prefer that. It's easier for us that he's clear about who he is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 04, 2014, 09:23:07 PM
I choose to NOT insult anybody, as that has been the request. Any other Jew who saw this thread would probably go ballistic on here. Between the statements about counting Jew gold, and owning the Bank of England, and all that, along with the anti-Israel garbage, there is enough anti-Semitism to make Hitler proud. But hey, I choose to engage the thread anyway, and not lose my cool. And I admit that I have at times been a bit uncharitable myself. I apologise for that. There is no excuse for me to be an alter kacker, even if some people here are less than kind. So, perhaps we could all take a break from being harsh to each other, and lets have a genuine discussion with each other, and be reasonable, shall we?

There is very little holding the foreskin to the penis, actually. Its a separate piece of flesh entirely, attached by a small piece of skin near the tip, and a ring of skin at the base, and not much more than that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 04, 2014, 09:27:59 PM
There is very little holding the foreskin to the penis, actually. Its a separate piece of flesh entirely, attached by a small piece of skin near the tip, and a ring of skin at the base, and not much more than that.

By that logic, your eyes aren't really a part of your head.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 04, 2014, 09:36:47 PM
I choose to NOT insult anybody, as that has been the request. Any other Jew who saw this thread would probably go ballistic on here. Between the statements about counting Jew gold, and owning the Bank of England, and all that, along with the anti-Israel garbage, there is enough anti-Semitism to make Hitler proud. But hey, I choose to engage the thread anyway, and not lose my cool. And I admit that I have at times been a bit uncharitable myself. I apologise for that. There is no excuse for me to be an alter kacker, even if some people here are less than kind. So, perhaps we could all take a break from being harsh to each other, and lets have a genuine discussion with each other, and be reasonable, shall we?

There is very little holding the foreskin to the penis, actually. Its a separate piece of flesh entirely, attached by a small piece of skin near the tip, and a ring of skin at the base, and not much more than that.

We're just telling the truth. It's not our fault you've been brainwashed by your rabbis.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 04, 2014, 09:59:53 PM
Actually, IMHO, the Censors, had they been truly neutral, would have banned several people by now right along with me, but in their cases, for being grossly anti-Semitic. Just the anti-Israel crap would be enough to do it. All of you failing to even consider facts in the Israel/"Palestinian" situation would be enough. For example, the absolutely absurd accusation of genocide, when in fact the "Palestinian" population has multiplied by four times since '67, is enough in and of itself to prove that the other accusations should at least be reconsidered. The fact that a "Palestinian" right now can take a picture of Netanyahu and write on it that "Netanyahu sucks ass" and go and hold it up in public, with nothing happening to him, is a clear indicator that for an Occupying Power, Israel is remarkably tolerant. Try anything similar in Tibet. For that matter, try it in ANY Muslim country of the Middle East, Arab or Persian, for that matter. The fact that the same "Palestinian", if he has an objection to his treatment by the Occupying Power, can sue said Occupying Power in that Power's own Supreme Court, and has a good chance of winning his case (many "Palestinians" have), is quite remarkable for an Occupying Power. I have to go for a moment. But when I come back, I can have more of these factoids available to show that as far as Occupying Powers go, Israel is a pretty decent one.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 04, 2014, 10:08:35 PM
Between the statements about counting Jew gold, and owning the Bank of England
Lol.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 04, 2014, 10:09:17 PM
Anti-semitism isn't against the rules m8

You'll just have to accept the fact that not everyone is as obsessed with your religion as you are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 04, 2014, 10:14:16 PM
>gets banned for offensive language
>makes alt account with offensive language
>doesn't get banned

If I break one rule, that's no bueno, if I break two, that's legit. Okay.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 04, 2014, 10:21:12 PM
So, anti-Semitism is allowed, but if I say anything against the Muslims, that's not allowed. I see how it is... Political Correctness at its best.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 04, 2014, 10:26:47 PM
>gets banned for offensive language
>makes alt account with offensive language
>doesn't get banned

If I break one rule, that's no bueno, if I break two, that's legit. Okay.

Feel free to report rule breaking if and when you see it.

So, anti-Semitism is allowed, but if I say anything against the Muslims, that's not allowed. I see how it is... Political Correctness at its best.

You weren't banned for not liking muslims.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 04, 2014, 10:29:28 PM
So, anti-Semitism is allowed, but if I say anything against the Muslims, that's not allowed. I see how it is... Political Correctness at its best.

Jews are in control of everything. The only reason that you would ever lose control of a situation (e.g. get banned) is because you're not Jewing hard enough. It wasn't that you said anything against Muslims, its just that you obviously didn't say enough. Ignite the rage inside and please the Jew overlords.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 04, 2014, 10:41:44 PM
Yaakov, where does your new username come from? Is this another one of your jew names?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 12:40:03 AM
So, anti-Semitism is allowed, but if I say anything against the Muslims, that's not allowed. I see how it is... Political Correctness at its best.

Jews are in control of everything. The only reason that you would ever lose control of a situation (e.g. get banned) is because you're not Jewing hard enough. It wasn't that you said anything against Muslims, its just that you obviously didn't say enough. Ignite the rage inside and please the Jew overlords.

Commenting on a remark that utterly ridiculous would just make me equally ridiculous. Welcome to anti-Semitism at its best, is all I can say.

Yaakov, where does your new username come from? Is this another one of your jew names?

My real Hebrew name is indeed Yaakov ben Avraham. Yonah ben Amittai is the full name of the Prophet Jonah in Hebrew.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2014, 12:46:38 AM
This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 05, 2014, 12:55:06 AM
This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.

I think advocating mass genocide is enough to consider them a pretty bad person ::)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 05, 2014, 12:59:08 AM
This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.

I think advocating mass genocide is enough to consider them a pretty bad person ::)

There's no difference between killing a city of humans and killing the ants in an ant mound, which people do every day.

And don't start with the "ants are a lower lifeform, they're barely sentient" nonsense.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 01:08:16 AM
DAVE, you don't have to like me. I don't personally give a rat's ass whether you do or not. The fact is, a sizable number of the people in the room (notice I do NOT say a majority, or most) have indicated signs of either anti-Semitism, or at the least, gross ignorance. The remarks made about Israel are sufficient to prove that. Furthermore, the comments about Jews owning everything in the world, and controlling everything, when we make up less than .02% of the population, are not only anti-Semitic, they are just outright stupid.

How does that work? How does that tiny percentage of people manage to control the entire planet? I mean, damn, either non-Jews are incredibly stupid (which I don't believe for a minute), or we are incredibly brilliant (which is true, but still, we aren't brilliant enough for that) or both, for us to accomplish that! But we haven't done too well, since we managed to get 6 million of us killed in 12 years. How does a population that controls the world manage to get fully 1/4 of its population annihilated by one Austrian small-time corporal turned dictator that couldn't even write grammatical German, and couldn't even get accepted to art school?

I mean, you are all beginning to sound more silly by the moment, the more anti-Semitic you get. I'm beginning to think that nothing more even need be said. I started this thread to answer legitimate questions about Jews and Judaism, rather than absurd ones. So, ask away. But put an end to the foolish ones.

Vindictus, you have, as usual, failed to see the point. I have at no time advocated genocide. Again, Israel has never engaged in the practice. Given that the "Palestinian" population has multiplied by 4 times in 47 years, lets face it, they're doing a piss-poor job of it if that is what they are attempting to do. If Israel truly wanted to eliminate every "Palestinian", it could be accomplished within a week. Intensive carpet bombing or fire bombing would do the job quite nicely.  I realise you regularly fail to see my point. I've gotten used to that, so don't expect me to be overly surprised.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 05, 2014, 01:11:17 AM
Actually, IMHO, the Censors, had they been truly neutral, would have banned several people by now right along with me, but in their cases, for being grossly anti-Semitic. Just the anti-Israel crap would be enough to do it. All of you failing to even consider facts in the Israel/"Palestinian" situation would be enough. For example, the absolutely absurd accusation of genocide, when in fact the "Palestinian" population has multiplied by four times since '67, is enough in and of itself to prove that the other accusations should at least be reconsidered. The fact that a "Palestinian" right now can take a picture of Netanyahu and write on it that "Netanyahu sucks ass" and go and hold it up in public, with nothing happening to him, is a clear indicator that for an Occupying Power, Israel is remarkably tolerant. Try anything similar in Tibet. For that matter, try it in ANY Muslim country of the Middle East, Arab or Persian, for that matter. The fact that the same "Palestinian", if he has an objection to his treatment by the Occupying Power, can sue said Occupying Power in that Power's own Supreme Court, and has a good chance of winning his case (many "Palestinians" have), is quite remarkable for an Occupying Power. I have to go for a moment. But when I come back, I can have more of these factoids available to show that as far as Occupying Powers go, Israel is a pretty decent one.

You didn't get banned for being an Islamophobe. There are worse people than you on this forum. You got banned for constantly insulting everyone. It's not cool, dude. It's just not cool.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2014, 01:13:00 AM
This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.

I think advocating mass genocide is enough to consider them a pretty bad person ::)
They aren't advocating mass genocide, just forced relocation and encampment.  You know, like the Indians.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 01:15:39 AM
Actually, IMHO, the Censors, had they been truly neutral, would have banned several people by now right along with me, but in their cases, for being grossly anti-Semitic. Just the anti-Israel crap would be enough to do it. All of you failing to even consider facts in the Israel/"Palestinian" situation would be enough. For example, the absolutely absurd accusation of genocide, when in fact the "Palestinian" population has multiplied by four times since '67, is enough in and of itself to prove that the other accusations should at least be reconsidered. The fact that a "Palestinian" right now can take a picture of Netanyahu and write on it that "Netanyahu sucks ass" and go and hold it up in public, with nothing happening to him, is a clear indicator that for an Occupying Power, Israel is remarkably tolerant. Try anything similar in Tibet. For that matter, try it in ANY Muslim country of the Middle East, Arab or Persian, for that matter. The fact that the same "Palestinian", if he has an objection to his treatment by the Occupying Power, can sue said Occupying Power in that Power's own Supreme Court, and has a good chance of winning his case (many "Palestinians" have), is quite remarkable for an Occupying Power. I have to go for a moment. But when I come back, I can have more of these factoids available to show that as far as Occupying Powers go, Israel is a pretty decent one.

You didn't get banned for being an Islamophobe. There are worse people than you on this forum. You got banned for constantly insulting everyone. It's not cool, dude. It's just not cool.

I don't think that was the point of my quote. The point was to say that being anti-Semitic toward a Jew is as insulting as I was toward some of you, which I have admitted to, and for which I have apologised. If the Censors had been truly neutral, they'd have banned others for their anti-Semitic insults thrown at me, which are just as hurtful and nasty as my insults were toward others.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 01:23:43 AM
This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.

I think advocating mass genocide is enough to consider them a pretty bad person ::)
They aren't advocating mass genocide, just forced relocation and encampment.  You know, like the Indians.

Forced relocation, yes, in a sense. But done humanely, as has had to be done before. The Germans of the Sudentenland after 1945, Some of the Muslims of India, and nearly all of the Hindus of Pakistan after 1947, being a few that ring bells right off hand. 750,000 Jews that lived in Arab countries all being deported to Israel in 1948 being some more. The difference is the Jews weren't kindly relocated, but forced out with nothing but what they could carry.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 05, 2014, 01:25:29 AM
Commenting on a remark that utterly ridiculous would just make me equally ridiculous. Welcome to anti-Semitism at its best, is all I can say.
Or, it could mean that you have finally given in to the ridiculousness of this place.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2014, 01:33:43 AM
This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.

I think advocating mass genocide is enough to consider them a pretty bad person ::)
They aren't advocating mass genocide, just forced relocation and encampment.  You know, like the Indians.

Forced relocation, yes, in a sense. But done humanely, as has had to be done before. The Germans of the Sudentenland after 1945, Some of the Muslims of India, and nearly all of the Hindus of Pakistan after 1947, being a few that ring bells right off hand. 750,000 Jews that lived in Arab countries all being deported to Israel in 1948 being some more. The difference is the Jews weren't kindly relocated, but forced out with nothing but what they could carry.
I'm not sure any forced relocation is humane.  I mean, what if every jew was forced to move to Israel with 6 months pay?  (what level exactly?)  I mean, we'd be ripping families apart if they're mixed religion.  We'd be destroying lives.  I've moved against my will before.  I did not enjoy the experience.  I can't imagine anyone enjoying it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 05, 2014, 01:45:14 AM
But Dave! Don't you know that Muslims are insignificant sub-human garbage? Why would it matter if their lives would be destroyed if it meant that the glorious chosen people were to regain their holy promised land?!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 05, 2014, 01:49:39 AM
There's no difference between killing a city of humans and killing the ants in an ant mound, which people do every day.

And don't start with the "ants are a lower lifeform, they're barely sentient" nonsense.

Ants are territorial and hostile. They bring it upon themselves.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 02:31:57 AM
I'm not expecting anyone to enjoy it. Nor do I consider Muslims as necessarily sub-human, although I don't want to be anywhere near them. I do consider them to be dangerous, since the Quran, which I have read three times, but I suspect you have not read at all, tells them they must convert me, force me to pay the Jizyah tax, or kill me. In Israel, there ARE no mixed religious marriages, or at least VERY few, since they are not permitted. Each religious faith is responsible for its own marriages. In Judaism, this means that Orthodox Judaism has responsibility for ALL Jewish marriages, and other life cycle events, that occur in Israel. If I want to live in Israel, and I get married in a Reform synagogue in that country, said marriage is NOT recognised by the state. If I leave the country and get married in the closest Reform Synagogue (which is in Cyprus) or in any other country, and then return to Israel, the State WILL recognise the marriage.

As far as Muslim marriages, and Christian marriages, and Druze marriages, each community is responsible for its own marriages. Muslims only allow men to marry non-Muslim girls, women are not allowed to marry outside the faith. Druze cannot marry out, and Christians tend to vary. But since no, or at least very few, Jewish girls would ever marry a non-Jewish male just because of social pressure, and few Muslim men would marry a Jewish girl, and so-on and so-forth, all these rules create an interlocking set of social rules and religious regulations that very few people of ANY religion are inclined to break, even the non-religious Jews, who actually make up a sizable portion of the population. There IS NO SECULAR MARRIAGE IN ISRAEL.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 05, 2014, 02:33:09 AM
There's no difference between killing a city of humans and killing the ants in an ant mound, which people do every day.

And don't start with the "ants are a lower lifeform, they're barely sentient" nonsense.

Ants are territorial and hostile. They bring it upon themselves.

So are Muslims. And heathens.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 05, 2014, 03:29:05 AM
Vindictus, you have, as usual, failed to see the point. I have at no time advocated genocide. Again, Israel has never engaged in the practice. Given that the "Palestinian" population has multiplied by 4 times in 47 years, lets face it, they're doing a piss-poor job of it if that is what they are attempting to do. If Israel truly wanted to eliminate every "Palestinian", it could be accomplished within a week. Intensive carpet bombing or fire bombing would do the job quite nicely.  I realise you regularly fail to see my point. I've gotten used to that, so don't expect me to be overly surprised.

I'm not talking about the Palestinians, I don't even need to go there. You've repeatedly advocated the genocide of muslims around the world.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on October 05, 2014, 03:37:36 AM
the Quran, which I have read three times, but I suspect you have not read at all, tells them they must convert me, force me to pay the Jizyah tax, or kill me.

Have you ever actually been to an Arab nation and engaged its inhabitants in any civil discourse?  You're aware that not a single Arab state applies a Jizya tax, yes?

You're conflating both the official political rhetoric of nations like Iran, and the totally Medieval philosophy of ISIS, with the thoughts, feelings, and opinions, of the 'typical' Arab citizen.  It's completely bogus.  Arab citizens are as peaceful as any other.  They overwhelmingly have zero interest in converting anyone or killing anyone for any reason.

I've never read the Quran.  I dunno what it says; but, you've mentioned previously that there are writings/laws/whatever in the Torah to which modern Judaism no longer adheres.  Is it so difficult for you to believe that maybe some of the more Medieval aspects of the Quran are also no longer applicable or practiced in modern Islam? 

You clearly don't think it's fair for someone to label you as a barbarian because the Torah commands you to stone to death adulterers, homosexuals, and disobedient children.  Obviously.  Your faith doesn't practice those commandments anymore except in small pockets of extremists (which you actually defend, oddly enough).  The exact same thing is true for Islam.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 04:06:42 AM
I have not advocated the genocide of Muslims around the world. I have advocated their complete subjugation. Nor do I apologise for that. They would do nothing less to us. As they say, "First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people." Of course, you have probably never heard the phrase, but every Jew has. And any Christian who has lived long enough in the Middle East has heard it.

But, like most Americans, you have an idealised view of Muslims. You have obviously not read the Qur'an. That's a shame, because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Anyone who tries to talk about Islam without having read their chief text should probably shut their yap. In fact, unless one can cite Hadith with some sufficiency, I suggest not opening one's yap at all. Of course, in your case, you would probably be hard-pressed to even know what Hadith are. Never mind asking, I'll tell you.

Hadith are the collected sayings of the "Prophet" Mohammed, which were collected by four schools of thought in Islam. The one I know best happens to be Sahi al Bukhari. There are three others in the Sunni (which basically means "Orthodox") sect of Islam, and five more in the Shia sect of Islam. Shia does not mean "heretic", but they are considered to be such by the larger Sunni population, because they engage in practices that are considered to be out of line with standard Islam, such as saint worship, and other such practices.

I could go on at length, but I think I've said enough. Since this is a Jewish thread, I would prefer not to pollute it with the practices of a religion that borders on the pagan, if it doesn't actually become such in its Shia variety. Anyway, there you are. Again, Vindictus, your failure to see the point does not shock me in the least.

Gary, in fact, there are countries in the Arab world that are even LESS tolerant than the Qur'an. At least the Qur'an tolerates Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians. Try being any one of those things in Saudi Arabia. Try being anything other than a Muslim if you are a citizen of that country. The punishment for such is death. And they don't screw around. They carry it out.

And tell the average "Palestinian" how much interest he has in seeing himself live in peaceful co-existence with Jews. They have made it painfully clear, to the tune of 93% of them, that they want to see us "pushed into the sea". They continue to teach their children that "Palestine" is the only country there. The maps that are in their textbooks do not show Israel at all. And those same books describe Jews as apes and pigs, and some of them include Holocaust denial as part of the lesson plans.

Gary, I strongly advise you NOT to yap at me about how the Arab in the street feels about the Jew. I already know the answer to that. The only reason The average Arab nation doesn't require the Jizyah tax is because there ARE no Jews or Christians there to pay it! Egypt has some Christians, where martyrdom occurs regularly. Morocco is a major exception, and treats its Jews well. Iran routinely persecutes its religious minorities. Those are the only three nations in the Middle East at this point that have to worry about minorities. Originally, you were right. The Jizyah was not required, but in Iraq under Saddam, minorities always had to duck. If they did, they were usually left alone. Now, their situation is dire.

Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Morocco, Syria, and that's about it for Middle Eastern nations. The rest of them are about 99% Muslim or greater. And except for Morocco, it sucks to be you if you live in any of them. So, just because you don't have to pay the Jizyah tax (yet), doesn't mean you are free from abuse. Lebanon is the only country that is truly multi-confessional, and its a mess.

And note that except for Iran and Morocco, NO single Middle Eastern country permits Jews to reside there or even enter the territory at all. Saudi Arabia will not even permit me to lay over in the Riyadh Airport on my way to South Africa or any place else. Most other Arab nations behave accordingly. In theory, Egypt will, but there are only about 500 Jews living there. There are no other Arab countries that have Jews in them, to my knowledge. So tell me about how Jews are treated by Arabs. And in Iran, Jews have to duck constantly.

And yes, I have spoken personally to Muslims and even studied in a Mosque for two years. Didn't tell them I was a Jew, but that's beside the point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 05, 2014, 05:33:30 AM
It boils down to two cultures that think they're superior to each other and as a result attempt to extinguish the opposing "inferior" culture. Since Israel already has nukes, I say ship a few to Hamas and see what happens. The nukes will stabilize the region, either by nuclear deterrent, or by removing the entire populace via a fireball.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 05, 2014, 06:25:53 AM
We (Murica) can't just start handing out nukes. That could back fire catastrophically. I say we cut out the middleman and nuke them first.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: la xasop on October 05, 2014, 09:31:57 AM
Yaakov/Yonah, we don't ban people the moment they break rules. We ban people who have been issued (and who have ignored) warnings on the matter. Banning is not a tool of punishment, it is a tool of correction, and should be used as a last resort. That's also why we didn't ban your alt straight away, but we will do so if you continue to break the same rule.

That's the last I'll say of this here, because it's off-topic. If you honestly feel that moderators have acted unfairly, please create a thread in Suggestions & Concerns, which is the appropriate forum for that. Preferably include links to the posts that you find incriminating, as supporting evidence, so that we can try to make an impartial assessment of the situation. Moderators are people too; they make mistakes, and they don't automatically understand everyone's point of view. S&C is the appropriate place to identify and deal with such issues.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 05, 2014, 09:43:00 AM
I have not advocated the genocide of Muslims around the world. I have advocated their complete subjugation. Nor do I apologise for that.

Oh come on. You've repeatedly said that you want to kill all muslims to prevent them from killing you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2014, 12:15:36 PM
According to wiktravel.org:

Quote
Islam is the state religion of Saudi Arabia. Although no law specifically requires Saudi citizens or passport holders to be Muslim, public observance and proselytism of religions other than Islam are forbidden.

wikitravel.org/en/Saudi_Arabia

You are allowed to be in Saudi Arabia so long as you don't practice jeudaism.  Which shouldn't be hard for someone who spent two years as a Muslim.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 01:14:18 PM
LORD DAVE, you have made my point for me. Thank you. VINDICTUS, ah, whatever.

PARSIFAL, you know, I'm not contesting the fact that I was banned. To be honest, I deserved it, at least the first time. I just believe that several other people deserved it along with me. I appreciate that my alt, as you put it, has been left alone. I am trying not to insult anyone here with it. I agree this is off-topic, which doesn't mean it can't be discussed here. However, I can slide on over to S&C if you like. BEFORE I do, I would ask that you read through the thread yourself, and for good measure, the one on ISIS and the Middle East, and observe the rampant, disgusting level of anti-Semitism you will find in both of them.

EDIT: It should be noted that when I am told that anti-Semitism is not against the rules, basically that means that my very identity as a person can be insulted and degraded, but I am not allowed to insult back. My immediate question to that is simple: what kind of BS is that? That sounds pretty damned unreasonable. So, read the above threads, and see just how insulting it got in both of them before you judge me too harshly. Then come talk to me in a private message if you wish, or here. I'm open to either. And do note that I do NOT question my banning. As I said, I deserved it, at least the first time. And then, if you ask me to go over to S&C, and point out specific posts, I'll be happy to do that. But try to be fair to me first.

After that, fire off a message to me, telling me HONESTLY what you think. If, after that, its necessary for me to go and manually point out what I'm talking about, I'll do that. But I figure you should be able to read reasonably well, and see this for yourself, since you seem to be a pretty smart fellow.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 03:00:44 PM
And it should be pointed out, that yes, Israel has nukes. Sure. But could they ever use them? No. The time for Israel to actually use a nuke would be either too early or too late. Anyone it might consider using one against lives too close. The fallout would affect Israel itself. And if Israel used it, even without the above problem, it would be accused of starting a war. If it waited until it was attacked to use one, it would no longer matter. The victory would probably be pyrrhic. So Israel has them simply to say to other countries in the area, "Fine. Attack us. Destroy us. We will take your ass down with us, and most of our neighbours along with us both."

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2014, 04:03:41 PM
LORD DAVE, you have made my point for me. Thank you.
And what point did I make exactly?  Because last time I checked, you don't need to practice jeudaism to be a Jew.  You said something similar yourself.  So unless you wish to claim that you are physically incapable of not openky practicing your religion for a few days, you can visit Saudi Arabia just as I can.

Quote
PARSIFAL, you know, I'm not contesting the fact that I was banned. To be honest, I deserved it, at least the first time. I just believe that several other people deserved it along with me. I appreciate that my alt, as you put it, has been left alone. I am trying not to insult anyone here with it. I agree this is off-topic, which doesn't mean it can't be discussed here. However, I can slide on over to S&C if you like. BEFORE I do, I would ask that you read through the thread yourself, and for good measure, the one on ISIS and the Middle East, and observe the rampant, disgusting level of anti-Semitism you will find in both of them.
Anti-American isn't against the rules either.  And being jewish is a culture isn't it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 04:13:44 PM
I suggest that you refer to the law codes of Saudi Arabia. If you are known to be Jewish at all, you are not permitted to enter the Kingdom. Atheist Jews are no different than other Jews, or for that matter other atheists, since atheists can be executed for denial of God's existence. Furthermore, if you have ever visited Israel in such manner that your passport bears a stamp from that country, you also will not be permitted entry to Saudi Arabia for any reason whatsoever.

I am NOT going to take the time to hunt down the laws for you. If you want to do that, that is your problem, not mine. I already know Saudi law from discussion with Arabs at the Mosque. And no, I was never a Muslim. I studied it for two years. there is a difference.

Being Jewish is ethno-religious. That is the difference. It is more than just being a culture.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2014, 06:11:51 PM
I suggest that you refer to the law codes of Saudi Arabia. If you are known to be Jewish at all, you are not permitted to enter the Kingdom. Atheist Jews are no different than other Jews, or for that matter other atheists, since atheists can be executed for denial of God's existence. Furthermore, if you have ever visited Israel in such manner that your passport bears a stamp from that country, you also will not be permitted entry to Saudi Arabia for any reason whatsoever.

I am NOT going to take the time to hunt down the laws for you. If you want to do that, that is your problem, not mine. I already know Saudi law from discussion with Arabs at the Mosque. And no, I was never a Muslim. I studied it for two years. there is a difference.
Ooohhhh, so they did what you feel should be done to Muslims.  Guess they're just better than you at keeping "inferior" religions out eh?

Quote
Being Jewish is ethno-religious. That is the difference. It is more than just being a culture.
You have stated quite clearly that a Jew is still a Jew even if they don't practice.

I think you and Muslims are more alike than you want to admit.  In fact, aside from Muslims backing up their talk with action as well as astronger conviction to their faith,  I'm at a difficulty to see the difference between you and the average Muslim.
Guess that's how you blended so well eh?  Those Jewish traits just don't show in you do they?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on October 05, 2014, 06:59:16 PM
big wall of text

So you've never visited an Arab nation.  Got it.

I'm not interested in discussing the Saudi monarchy or any other repressive government.  The fact that many Arabs live under oppressive regimes isn't to me a rational justification for advocating for violence against Arab citizens or speaking of them as subhumans. 

I'm interested in discussing your sole possible justification for advocating for violence, that Arabs represent an existential threat to Jews.  You claim that the Quran commands all non-Muslims to submit to Islam in conversion, taxation, or death.  You claim to be well-versed on the Quran, so perhaps you could point me to the relevant passages that demonstrate the accuracy of this characterization. 

I've been doing a bit of reading myself, and I have yet to find an academic source that agrees with you.  I keep finding descriptions like this one from Quran commentator Muhammad Asad: (http://muhammad-asad.com/Message-of-Quran.pdf)
Quote
The term jizyah, rendered by me as "exemption tax", occurs in the Qur'an only once, but its meaning and purpose have been fully explained in many authentic Traditions. It is intimately bound up with the concept of the Islamic state as an ideological organization: and this is a point which must always be borne in mind if the real purport of this tax is to be understood. In the Islamic state, every able-bodied Muslim is obliged to take up arms in jihad (i.e., in a just war in God's cause) whenever the freedom of his faith or the political safety of his community is imperilled: in other words, every able-bodied Muslim is liable to compulsory military service. Since this is, primarily, a religious obligation, non-Muslim citizens, who do not subscribe to the ideology of Islam, cannot in fairness be expected to assume a similar burden. On the other hand, they must be accorded full protection of all their civic rights and of their religious freedom: and it is in order to compensate the Muslim community for this unequal distribution of civic burdens that a special tax is levied on non-Muslim citizens (ahl adh-dhimmah, lit., "covenanted" [or "protected"] people", i.e., non-Muslims whose safety is statutorily assured by the Muslim community). Thus, jizyah is no more and no less than an
exemption tax in lieu of military service and in compensation for the "covenant of protection" (dhimmah) accorded to such citizens by the Islamic state. (The term itself is derived from the verb jazd, "he rendered [something] as a satisfaction", or "as a compensation [in lieu of something else]" - cf. Lane II, 422.)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on October 05, 2014, 07:05:33 PM
Oh, and you're just plain wrong with all of this nonsense about Saudi Arabia.  Jews can travel to Saudi Arabia.  Israelis cannot.  They also won't let in anyone with an Israeli visa, but you can just request a duplicate passport from the State Dept.  Use duplicate to go to Israel.  Use regular one to go to Saudi Arabia.  Problem solved.  No one will try and kill you for being a Jew.  That's absurd.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 10:20:47 PM
Saudi Law makes it clear that no Jew can enter the Kingdom for any reason whatsoever. In fact, during the first Gulf War, when our soldiers were there to defend them, that law had to be placed in temporary abeyance so that our soldiers who were Jewish would be allowed to be deployed there. My brother who was in the military was aware of this problem. So I would encourage you to get your facts straight on the matter.

I too, have read the argument you quoted regarding the Jizyah tax. Read the following for a response.

QUOTE: "Jews in Islamic Countries:
The Treatment of Jews
(Updated September 2011)

Jews in Islamic Countries: Table of Contents | Jewish Refugees | Arab Anti-Semitism

Print Friendly and PDF
   


Arabs sometimes claim that, as "Semites," they cannot possibly be anti-Semitic. This, however, is a semantic distortion that ignores the reality of Arab discrimination and hostility toward Jews. Arabs, like any other people, can indeed be anti-Semitic.

The term "anti-Semite" was coined in Germany in 1879 by Wilhelm Marr to refer to the anti-Jewish manifestations of the period and to give Jew-hatred a more scientific sounding name.(1) "Anti-Semitism" has been accepted and understood to mean hatred of the Jewish people.

While Jewish communities in Arab and Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe, Jews were no strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs and Muslim. As Princeton University historian Bernard Lewis has written: "The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam."(2)

Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to convert and rejected Muhammad, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled; in 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.(3)

The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. "They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God's signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors" (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:97­98).

The Dhimmi
Still, as "People of the Book," Jews (and Christians) are protected under Islamic law. The traditional concept of the "dhimma" ("writ of protection") was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This "protection" did little, however, to insure that Jews and Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer--the Muslim.

In the early years of the Islamic conquest, the "tribute" (or jizya), paid as a yearly poll tax, symbolized the subordination of the dhimmi. Later, the inferior status of Jews and Christians was reinforced through a series of regulations that governed the behavior of the dhimmi. Dhimmis, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Koran, Islam or Muhammad, to proselytize among Muslims or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a non­Muslim as a wife).

Dhimmis were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. They were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices-as that might offend the Muslims. The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.(4)

Dhimmis were also forced to wear distinctive clothing. In the ninth century, for example, Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.(5)

Violence Against Jews
At various times, Jews in Muslim lands were able to live in relative peace and thrive culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death. Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews.

When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results: On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.

Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.(6)

Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830 and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.(7)

Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).{8}

As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:
It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.(9)

The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.(10)

By the twentieth century, the status of the dhimmi in Muslim lands had not significantly improved. H.E.W. Young, British Vice Consul in Mosul, wrote in 1909:
The attitude of the Muslims toward the Christians and the Jews is that of a master towards slaves, whom he treats with a certain lordly tolerance so long as they keep their place. Any sign of pretension to equality is promptly repressed.(11)

The danger for Jews became even greater as a showdown approached in the UN over partition in 1947. The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: "Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world."(12)

More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940's in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.(13) This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.

Sources:
1. Vamberto Morais, A Short History of Anti-Semitism, (NY: W.W Norton and Co., 1976), p. 11; Bernard Lewis, Semites & Anti-Semites, (NY: WW Norton & Co., 1986), p. 81.
2. Bernard Lewis, "The Pro-Islamic Jews," Judaism, (Fall 1968), p. 401.
3. Bat Ye'or, The Dhimmi, (NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1985), pp. 43-44.
4. Bat Yeor, pp. 30, 56-57; Louis Gardet, La Cite Musulmane: Vie sociale et politique, (Paris: Etudes musulmanes, 1954), p. 348.
5. Bat Yeor, pp. 185-86, 191, 194.
6. Norman Stillman, The Jews of Arab Lands, (PA: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1979), pp. 59, 284.
7. Maurice Roumani, The Case of the Jews from Arab Countries: A Neglected Issue, (Tel Aviv: World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries, 1977), pp. 26-27.
8. Bat Ye'or, p. 61
9. G.E. Von Grunebaum, "Eastern Jewry Under Islam," Viator, (1971), p. 369.
10. Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam, (NJ: Princeton University Press, 1984) p. 158.
11. Middle Eastern Studies, (1971), p. 232.
12. New York Times, (February 19, 1947).
13. Roumani, pp. 30-31."

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on October 06, 2014, 04:05:24 AM
Saudi Law makes it clear that no Jew can enter the Kingdom for any reason whatsoever. In fact, during the first Gulf War, when our soldiers were there to defend them, that law had to be placed in temporary abeyance so that our soldiers who were Jewish would be allowed to be deployed there. My brother who was in the military was aware of this problem. So I would encourage you to get your facts straight on the matter.

Again, the actions of a theocratic, absolute monarchy are not rational reasons to advocate for violence against Arabs or to speak of them as subhumans.

That said, you're wrong.  I've watched you be wrong with my own eyes.  Israelis are not permitted into Saudi Arabia.  Anyone with an Israeli visa is not permitted into Saudi Arabia.  American citizens of any religion are typically permitted into Saudi Arabia.  Once there, no one will try to kill you for being a Jew.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2011/06/delta-saudia-arabia-and-jewish-travellers
Quote
It is true that some Jewish travelers—usually people who were born in Israel or who have evidence of travel to Israel on their passports—sometimes have trouble obtaining visas for Saudi Arabia and some other Middle Eastern countries. This is not a new development. But there are ways to get around the restriction, and Jewish travelers can fly to Saudi and have done so in the past.

That's cool that the Jewish Geocities Library compiled of a list of all the times some Arabs were shitty to some Jews, though.  Sweet paper.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 06, 2014, 04:55:03 AM
I'll keep that in mind the next time the law has to be put into abeyance so that American soldiers can defend the Kingdom. Granted, it is possible that the law has been in abeyance since 1991. But I do know that up to that date, a Jew could not enter the Kingdom, because they had to place Saudi laws into abeyance in order to permit our soldiers of Jewish Faith to do so. It is possible that this was never changed. Again, get your facts straight. And I will get mine up to date.

And I'll be sure that after I claim my Israeli Right of Return that I try to get around Saudi Law forbidding my entry to the Kingdom. Not that I have any desire to enter such a hole in the first place. But the point is not that. The point is to indicate that with the exception of Israel, most of the nations of the Middle East are savage pits of wrath where it basically sucks to be you unless you are a Muslim. Israel is the ONLY democracy in the Middle East, and the ONLY country that allows freedom of religion to its citizens. Even to the so-called "Palestinians", it allows considerable freedom, given that they are under military occupation. I have indicated that earlier in the thread.

Let's be honest, and call a spade a spade. Most ME countries live under some level of Sharia. Depending on the country, this can be more or less. Saudi Arabia represents one extreme, and Turkey represents the other. Most fall in the middle somewhere. But, with the exception of Turkey (and even they have been flirting with it a little), ME countries other than Israel expect their people to adhere to a code designed for the Seventh Century. Adultery? Cut your head off. You're a woman and you get raped? Well, too bad you can't prove it was rape, must have been your fault. Cut your head off, or at the very least, an honour killing. If you aren't a Muslim, well, it DEFINITELY sucks to be you. Welcome to Egypt, where it is a noted fact that Coptic girls are kidnapped every day and forcibly converted and married to their Muslim kidnappers.

The only country that treats its minorities at all well is Morocco, from what I understand. For whatever reason, the present King's father invited Jews to live in the Kingdom, and promised full civil rights. There are now 5,000 of them there. And they are treated well, I gather. Iran treats her minorities as second class citizens, but mostly leaves them be if they stay very quiet and duck.

So, out of all the countries in the Middle East, which is the only one that is civilised, and treats its citizens equally? Israel. There are Arabs serving in the Knesset. There are Arabs on the Supreme Court. There are Arabs who serve (voluntarily) in the IDF (they are NOT subject to the draft, as Jews are). All citizens in Israel are allowed to practice their faiths openly, and access to the Holy Sites are guaranteed.

So, don't whine to me about Muslims and Arabs until I start seeing countries like the KSA treat me with the same respect that Israel treats Arabs. Don't even go there with me.
Title: Is the Exodus True?
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 06, 2014, 06:49:53 AM
QUOTE: "Israel’s Population at the Exodus

What was the population of Israel at the Exodus from Egypt. When one looks at the figures given in the Bible, it appears that there could have been as many as two and a half million people (if one includes the women and the children). Is this possibly correct?
 
The Book of Numbers in two places (once at the beginning of the Exodus and again at the end) shows a population of adult males to number just over 600,000. There can be no doubt that these figures in both accounts in Numbers are correct, but this would not square with some other historical data that are found in the account of the Exodus. [See Appendix Six for information on this matter.]

The key to understand the true approximation of the number of people is given in the Bible itself. It concerns one census of people upon which all the rest hinges. What is that census? It is that of the firstborn. We are told how many firstborn there were from a month old and upwards (including even the oldest of the men who were firstborn, and remember that some actual firstborn children could be substituted with others if the need arose—Genesis 48:14; I Chronicles 5:1,2—even daughters could take on the role in certain cases—Numbers 27:1–11). The census of firstborn showed there were 22,273 (Numbers 3:40-43). This means there were that many firstborn who made up the population of Israel. Yet a full third of that number would have been underage and had yet produced no families of their own, and another third would have been old and beyond the age of child bearing and they would have fewer family members. If we say that about a third of the firstborn would have had families (male and female) under their control, then each family would (we are guessing here) might have 8 to 10 members in it. Eight to ten times the one third having families would equal about 70,000 people (and with youngsters and oldsters added to them it would be no more than 120,000 (not two and a half million).

And in the episode with the Moabites just before the Israelites entered the land of promise (Numbers 25:9) they lost 24,000 men (Paul said 23,000 but that was from the initial plague ("in one day," I Corinthians 10: eight) and not the 1000 or so that died afterwards. This reduced the population of Israel to about 95,000 people (both males and females) who crossed over the Jordan into the Land of Canaan. It is interesting that when the twelve tribes of Israel went to war with the Midianites near the end of the Exodus, Joshua asked for only 1000 men from each tribe (Numbers 31:1-5). This number fits in nicely with a total population of about 40,000 men who were capable of making war when Israel crossed the River Jordan. And what do we have Joshua telling us just after Israel crossed the Jordan and just before they attacked the city of Jericho? Notice it carefully. Joshua said: "About forty thousand prepared for war passed over before the Lord unto battle, to the plains of Jericho" (Joshua 4:13).

But what about the prodigious numbers of men mentioned in the two censuses (one at the beginning of the Exodus and the other at the end) which yielded just over 600,000 men, which would give a total population (with women and children) of about two and a half million? This can easily be understood if one will recognize a peculiar way the biblical people looked on their ancestors. Note this point carefully. When Abraham died, he was said to be "gathered to his people" (Genesis 25: eight). This same expression is said of others when they died. Ishmael (Genesis 25:17), Isaac (Genesis 35:29), Jacob (Genesis 49:33). And though Moses and Aaron were brothers, each of them were gathered to their own people (that is, people who were ascribed to them). Note how God said to Moses: "die in the mount whither you go up, and be gathered unto your people; as Aaron your brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people" (Deuteronomy 32:50). In the case of Jacob being "gathered to his people," he specifically requested that he be buried in the cave of his fathers in the land of Canaan because he and his posterity had inherited that cave and that land from the time of Abraham (Genesis 49:29-33).

The Bible tells us that God has what he calls "The Book of Life" (better, it means "The Book of the Living" and it is so rendered in Psalm 69:28). This book in heaven contained the names of the righteous dead (as well as those then alive and in good standing in the community of Israel), but it was still called "The Book of the Living" even though the majority of people written in the book were in fact dead. Among those in the book were the people of Abraham (who were worthy), those of Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron etc., etc. Now the genealogical tables maintained by the Israelites were similar. Note that when Moses asked for the number of the men at the census in Israel, he asked the leaders of the tribes to "declare their PEDIGREES after their families" (Numbers 1:18). In the census of just over 600,000 men, the total number also included all the names they had in the genealogical tables (who were also destined in the resurrection to inherit the Land of Canaan) who were their ancestors—the dead as well as the living.

The apostle Paul used this same principle in reverse when he stated that Levi was in the loins of Abraham his father (though he was a fourth generation descendant) when Abraham met Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:9,10). This aggregate number of people (both living and dead) recorded in the genealogical tables and counted in the censuses of Israel reached back to include Abraham and all his early family, because when Abraham died even he was "gathered to his people" (Genesis 25: eight). Yes, even the earlier ancestors of Abraham were included, and the tables no doubt embraced various family names (this is, pedigrees) that could have reached back to Noah, and even to Adam himself.

When Jacob went to Egypt there were about 70 people who went with him (Exodus 1:5), but they multiplied exceedingly (Exodus 1:7). In five or six generations, until the time of Moses, there could have been almost 500,000 Israelite men who were living when Moses was born. At that time, Pharaoh began to kill the males of the Israelites when they were born (though the midwives at first did not obey Pharaoh— Exodus 1:17) and there was a great reduction in Israelite population just before the Exodus. However, if one would count all the Israelites from the time of Jacob unto Moses (counting the names in "the pedigrees" as Moses commanded) and add the number of Israelites at the Exodus about 120,000, then the figures given in the two censuses can be reasonably understood. In a word, the Israelites counted the names of their pedigrees (the Israelites and their ancestors who were dead but still to inherit the land)."

Source: http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec095.htm

QUOTE: "The Population at the Exodus

In Question Ninety-Five I answer the so-called problem of the population of Israel at the Exodus that has given people so much trouble over the centuries. To keep my answer short for the question itself, I did not present some of the problems that scholars have had to face if one takes the men of the two censuses to be living men who accompanied Moses with the rest of the Israelites out of Egypt. We get into imponderable difficulties if we do so. The answer I give in Question Ninety-Five presents the most reasonable explanation of this matter. But let us look at some of the problems that Question Ninety-Five attempts to answer.

In the first place, when Israel left Egypt they had 603,550 armed men for war if all of those men were living at the time (Numbers 1:46). This number included all able bodied men from the age of twenty (Numbers 1:45) to the age of retirement at year fifty (Numbers 4:3;John 8:57) or sometimes sixty (Leviticus 27:7). But if all the women, children and older people over fifty (or sixty) are included, the number of Israelites who left Egypt must have numbered about two and a half million. This is a vast amount of people going into a desolate desert area east of Egypt. Let us assume for a moment that all the men of the census were indeed living at the time and were not a part of the pedigree records that were mentioned by Moses which also included (the dead and the living). Let us look at the difficulties if we reckon all the men as then living.

Moses took the Israelites along the regular roads of communication. They went by “the way [highway] of the wilderness of the Red Sea” (Exodus 13:18); “the way [highway] of Mount Seir unto Kadesh-barnea” (Deuteronomy 1:2); “and the king’s highway” (Numbers 21:22). These roads in the latter part of their journey connected various settlements with water wells, springs and mountain passes. They were usually constructed by governments for military and commercial purposes. The ancient roads were similar to ones today in their routings but they had no asphalt coverings for high speed transport. They were normally graded roadbeds which wagons or caravans could use. Israel used the well-traveled roads in their journeys from Egypt to Palestine. And herein comes the first difficulty.

When our American west was being settled, wagon trains followed the various trails. A typical wagon train could have had some 250 people in it and was a quarter of a mile or so in length. Thus, if a wagon train were extended to a mile in length, there could theoretically be nearly 1000 people in it (though in practical terms there would no doubt be less). But Israel supposedly numbered two and a half million people if all the people of the censuses were then living. But Moses promised the king of Edom that “we will not pass through the fields, or vineyard. . .we will not turn to the right hand nor to the left” (Numbers 20:17). In other words, Moses said that Israel would stay directly on the narrow road through the country of Edom. If one mile of road could hold about 1000 Israelites with wagons, etc. (which is very reasonable), then the length of the Israelite march would be at least 2,500 miles long. Such a length of people would stretch from Egypt to the border of China. This, of course, is hardly possible. Even if the wagons went ten abreast, the train would still be 250 miles long. If they journeyed a hundred wagon abreast, such a massive wagon train of Israelites would still be 25 miles long. As anyone can see, Israel would never have been able to stay on the roads with such a mass of people. Yet Moses told the king of Edom that Israel would never step off a single road through his territory.

A Further Difficulty

After traveling some six weeks into a desolate wilderness, the Israelites came in contact with the Amalekite army (Exodus 17: eight). Israel had in their army no less than 600,000 men (that is, if the men were all living men)—more than all the combined armed forces of Great Britain today. And yet, the armies of Amalek were able to defeat Israel while the hands of Moses remained unlifted (Exodus 17:11). Israel finally prevailed and conquered the Amalekites. But herein lies a problem. For any army to defeat another in normal combat, the winning army usually has a superior force. Were there also some 600,000 Amalekite soldiers out in the middle of the Sinai desert as well? While Israel had miraculous water and food to sustain them alive in such a desolate environment, did the heathen Amalekites also have the miraculous food and water supplies? How could such a vast heathen army provide for itself in such hostile conditions?

Of course, with the explanation that I have given in Question Ninety-Five, this is not a problem of importance.

Another Dilemma

If all those 600,000 men were living men, then we have other difficulties. Soon after the defeat of the Amalekite army, Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses, met him not far from Mt. Sinai (Exodus 18). Jethro was amazed that Moses had yet to establish a chain of command in judging Israel. He hastened him to initiate a rulership of men over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens (Exodus 18:21) so that Moses would not be worn out by trying to settle all the judicial affairs of 2 1/2 million people. But this information represents a major problem. Israel had already been on their journey some six weeks and they numbered about the size of the city of Los Angeles on the move (that is, as I have been pointing out, if the men were all living men). Would it not be impossible to muster such a prodigious quantity of people into some kind of orderly march without various chains of command already established? This is a major difficulty as anyone would admit who looks closely at the matter.

Another Perplexity

After wondering forty years in the wilderness, Israel invaded the land of Canaan under the leadership of Joshua. Though all the first men of war died in the wilderness, a new generation of Israelite men numbering 601,730 were armed for war (Numbers 26). This means there were still about two and a half million people who crossed the River Jordan and were responsible for capturing the city of Jericho (again, if all the men were living men). But this does not square with the facts. Look at this.

The ruins of Jericho (the city that Joshua conquered) are still to be seen today. There can be no doubt of the identification of the site. When I have taken people to Israel and show the ruins of ancient Jericho, they express amazement at its smallness. It’s an area of about ten acres. Professor Kenyon, who excavated the site from 1952 to 1956, says that the greatest population that Jericho could possibly have had was 3,000 souls. The area of Jericho was a little under two square city blocks. If we allow that Jericho had a population of 3,000 people, then the Israelites would have outnumbered those Canaanite residents over 800 to one if all the men were living. Some have wondered why God had to cause the walls to tumble down when Israel had such an extraordinary advantage.

Let’s put it another way. On New Year’s Day in Pasadena, California there is the annual Rose Bowl football game. About 106,000 people can sit in the stadium bleachers. Suppose the ancient city of Jericho were placed in the center of the Rose Bowl stadium, one would have to have 24 times the New Year’s spectators to equal the amount of Israelites who conquered little Jericho. No miracle would have been necessary to subdue Jericho.

The former Prime Minister of modern Israel, David Ben-Gurion, saw the problem of having so many men as recorded in the censuses. He thought his ancient forefathers of the Exodus did not number 600,000 armed men for the war, but only 600. If that were so, the logistical problems associated with the above examples could be better dealt with. However, with only 600 Israelite soldiers leaving Egypt (or some 2,500 people when the women, children, and older people are included), the Egyptian Pharaoh could hardly have said “Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we” (Exodus 1:9). BenGurion’s suggestion would also be counter to Bible information which says Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, told Moses to divide up judicial responsibility among the Israelites into thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens (Exodus 18:21). The thousands that Jethro had reference to certainly represent more than 600.

And there are further problems. Some scholars have shown that since Jethro did not suggest that Moses place rulers over “a hundred thousand,” over “fifty thousand,” or even over “ten thousand,” Jethro may have been aware that Moses’ army of men were less than ten thousand in number. This is because Jethro’s suggestion started out only with thousands (and then downward). However, we are told that 40,000 (not 600,000) did in fact cross the Jordan River (Joshua 4:13).

These are some examples of some of the problems with Israel’s population at the Exodus if one does not read what Moses said carefully. Indeed, Moses was including in each of the censuses the pedigrees of the Israelites (and these genealogical tables listed people with the living Israelites who could have numbered the actual amount of men Moses mentioned). In truth, Moses included the dead (the pedigrees) as well as those living in his census accounts. This means that even though the dead were dead, they still were reckoned by Moses (and by God) as having their inheritance along with the living Israelites to the Land of Canaan. This was simply a way in which all were guaranteed their right of inheritance, and in the resurrection from the dead which will occur under the leadership of the new Joshua (Jesus, that is Christ Jesus), all Israel and all Christians will indeed inherit the promises. Read Question Ninety-Five again for the biblical answer to these so-called problems."

Source: http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec107.htm

Although this is a Christian response, it contains much good information, so I thought I would include it here. Please note that I have written the number "8" as "eight" because the machine kept registering it as an emoticon.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 06, 2014, 07:25:18 AM
tl;dr
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 06, 2014, 05:35:07 PM
The Buddhist treatment of Christians in Burma is sufficient justification for my serial killings of American Buddhists (note for law enforcement officers: this is an analogy. I am not actually a serial killer)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 06, 2014, 10:16:28 PM
sandokhan is yaakov's alt.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 06, 2014, 10:26:14 PM
I freely admit that Yonah and Yaakov are the same person. But I don't know Sandokhan at all.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 07, 2014, 08:09:07 AM
There used to be a muslim on the old site for some time. I'm sure you two would have gotten along well.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 07, 2014, 08:35:18 AM
Ah, I remember him! Can't remember the name though.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 07, 2014, 08:46:58 AM
It was something muslimy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spanner34.5 on October 07, 2014, 11:18:06 AM
QUOTE: "Anyone promoting genital mutilation of children, male or female, should be banned forever. Consenting adults should be allowed to mutilate themselves, if they wish. Subjecting minors is just plain wrong!"

 Ok. Let's deal with this rude and immature comment first, shall we (NOTE TO CENSORS: Not an insult to the person who made the remarks, but rather a commentary on the remarks themselves; there is a difference)?

Point One: 1. I am sure that if you looked up the word "bris" in a Hebrew dictionary, you would get a different definition. Point Two: 2. Male circumcision is practiced by non-Jews often in the USA as a health measure to aid in the cleaning of the penis. It causes very little or no pain, and in no way damages the penis. FGM, on the other hand, serves no valid purposes, is not backed by ANY religious practices whatsoever, and causes permanent and lasting harm to the female genitalia, aside from being horrifically painful. Conclusion: My advice, Spanner, would be to grow up, and cease to be an anti-Semitic, uninformed child, and begin to act like an adult (NOTE TO CENSORS: Also not an insult, but rather, a fair observation on the maturity or lack thereof of a person). That would benefit us all.
An interesting rant. I have never posted anything anti-semitic and never will.

I will react no more to someone whose opinion I despise.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 07, 2014, 12:40:59 PM
Ok, let me break it down for you. Anybody who can't figure out the difference between FGM and standard male circumcision can be clearly defined as anti-Semitic. Anyone who would illegalise one of the primary rituals of our Faith can be defined as an anti-Semite. I don't know how you get around either of those two things. Ergo, you are posting things that are anti-Semitic. Ergo, you are an anti-Semite. I am not trying to insult you, I am just defining what you are.

I don't care whether you respond to me or not. That sounds like a personal issue if you ask me. By not responding to me, you have acknowledged the superiority of my argument. Thank you. Have a pleasant day.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 07, 2014, 01:55:59 PM
Saddam, you are illogical. No further comment is necessary. And by the way: Godwin's Law. You lose.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 07, 2014, 05:59:38 PM
Ok. Now that the ban has expired, I shall return as Yaakov, with thanks to the Censors for allowing me to be Yonah. I shall attempt to behave myself as Yaakov. Let me assure my mates here that Yonah is indeed Yaakov, but there are no other alts out there. As you can see, I'm not very good at pretending to be someone else. :)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 07, 2014, 06:21:47 PM
We're allowed to completely circumvent our bans with alts?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 07, 2014, 06:24:20 PM
We're allowed to completely circumvent our bans with alts?

No.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 07, 2014, 06:24:30 PM
Is that a question for a Jew, or just a general question directed to no one in particular? If the latter, please stay on topic and ask a Jew anything.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 07, 2014, 06:25:03 PM
Alex, I suspect the answer to that is generally, No. I think they were tolerant of me because they might have realised that I would shut up. They happened to be right. Plus, they realised they could shut me up if I stepped out of line even slightly. I chose not to. I wouldn't try it, if I were you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 07, 2014, 06:27:26 PM
We're allowed to completely circumvent our bans with alts?

No.

Did you and the other censors arrange a special agreement for Yonah/Yaakov, then?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 07, 2014, 06:31:02 PM
We're allowed to completely circumvent our bans with alts?

No.

Did you and the other censors arrange a special agreement for Yonah/Yaakov, then?

He didn't circumvent a ban.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 07, 2014, 06:32:16 PM
Ok, there's a conspiracy going on then.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 07, 2014, 06:33:28 PM
Of course there is, Dodo. The world is flat! There are evil people who want to make us believe it is round! Haven't you heard that yet? *GRIN*
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 07, 2014, 06:33:33 PM
He didn't circumvent a ban.

Yaakov was banned again on Oct. 4th. He registered as Yonah the same day and continued posting.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 07, 2014, 06:35:52 PM
He didn't circumvent a ban.

Yaakov was banned again on Oct. 4th. He registered as Yonah the same day and continued posting.

Indeed, as there was no ban imposed on Yonah. What did he circumvent, exactly?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 07, 2014, 06:36:44 PM
Yaakov was banned. Whoever is in control of Yaakov created Yonah to circumvent the ban on his original account. Are you trying to say that Yaakov and Yonah are not the same person??  ???

The plot thickens.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 07, 2014, 06:37:23 PM
He didn't circumvent a ban.

Yaakov was banned again on Oct. 4th. He registered as Yonah the same day and continued posting.

Indeed, as there was no ban imposed on Yonah. What did he circumvent, exactly?

I thought the purpose of a ban was to keep a particular person from posting for a certain amount of time, not a particular account.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 07, 2014, 06:39:22 PM
He didn't circumvent a ban.

Yaakov was banned again on Oct. 4th. He registered as Yonah the same day and continued posting.

Indeed, as there was no ban imposed on Yonah. What did he circumvent, exactly?

I thought the purpose of a ban was to keep a particular person from posting for a certain amount of time, not a particular account.

Not this ban.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 07, 2014, 06:40:44 PM
In short, Yaakov makes up 75% of the this entire forum's discussions. If he was banned this whole place would cease to function. You guys made the right choice.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 07, 2014, 07:04:05 PM
Yaakov, why do you think theists gets so offended when people offend their religion, when literally no one gives a crap when theists offends atheism?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 07, 2014, 07:05:41 PM
Because there's about 1 atheist (not non-religious) to every 10 theists in pretty much every country around the world.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 07, 2014, 07:07:49 PM
Because there's about 1 atheist (not non-religious) to every 10 theists in pretty much every country around the world.

Um, no. A lot of European countries are 50%+ atheist.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 07, 2014, 07:08:50 PM
Because there's about 1 atheist (not non-religious) to every 10 theists in pretty much every country around the world.

Um, no. A lot of European countries are 50%+ atheist.

Atheist or non-religious? Regardless, everyone knows America is the whole world, eurofag.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 07, 2014, 07:11:51 PM
Because there's about 1 atheist (not non-religious) to every 10 theists in pretty much every country around the world.

Um, no. A lot of European countries are 50%+ atheist.

Atheist or non-religious? Regardless, everyone knows America is the whole world, eurofag.

Atheistic religions aren't particularly common in Europe, so I don't know why you're asking.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 07, 2014, 07:13:34 PM
BEARDO, it really depends on where you live, and what kind of theist you are. If you live in say, Pakistan, and you're a Catholic, you'd better not get offended at anything, or you will rapidly be told to shut the fuck up and do what your told by the Muslim majority, and if you don't like it, you will go bye-bye real quick. If you live in Ireland, and you are a Jew, you won't go bye-bye, but if you make your objections known too loudly, you will experience considerable social pressure to conform by shutting the fuck up.

If you live in Estonia, which is one of the most atheist countries in the world, nobody really gives a flaming fuck who says what. And anybody who gets too nasty, irrespective of their beliefs or lack thereof tends to get laughed at. In this country (the US), most Americans are theistic. We also have the highest "church" attendance of any Western nation in the world. I put the word "church" in quotes because I mean churches, temples, synagogues, etc. 86% of our population claims to be Christian. 46% attends a house of worship of some sort 2 times a month or more. In an environment like that, being an atheist is not likely to be easy, except in certain environments, like college campuses, which are known for their liberalism. I think you get my point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Снупс on October 07, 2014, 09:22:31 PM
Because there's about 1 atheist (not non-religious) to every 10 theists in pretty much every country around the world.

Um, no. A lot of European countries are 50%+ atheist.

Atheist or non-religious? Regardless, everyone knows America is the whole world, eurofag.

Atheistic religions aren't particularly common in Europe, so I don't know why you're asking.
Are you implying that if someone is non-religious, they have to be atheist?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 07, 2014, 11:12:19 PM
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Снупс on October 07, 2014, 11:24:50 PM
Or would consider themselves deist or something.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 07, 2014, 11:27:43 PM
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.

Some of us also practice Agnostic-atheist-new-age-Christianism.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 07, 2014, 11:43:25 PM
And by 'here' I meant Australia. Most people here are atheist heathens.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 08, 2014, 01:35:28 AM
Ok, let me break it down for you. Anybody who can't figure out the difference between FGM and standard male circumcision can be clearly defined as anti-Semitic.
So ignorance of medical procedures is anti-jew now?  Damn.  At this rate simply being non-jew will be anti-jew.

Quote
Anyone who would illegalise one of the primary rituals of our Faith can be defined as an anti-Semite.

Not all who are circumsized are Jews.  Therefore it is not Jew specific and can not be considered an attack on your faith.  Much like making alcohol illegal isn't an attack on communion.  (Wine is the blood of Jesus and all that)
Quote
I don't know how you get around either of those two things. Ergo, you are posting things that are anti-Semitic. Ergo, you are an anti-Semite. I am not trying to insult you, I am just defining what you are.
I was wrong, the next step is to label anything YOU don't understand as anti-jew.  I'd hate to be an astrophysicist in Israel right now.

Quote
I don't care whether you respond to me or not. That sounds like a personal issue if you ask me. By not responding to me, you have acknowledged the superiority of my argument. Thank you. Have a pleasant day.
For someone who says they don't care what others think, you seem to be very sensitive to what we say.  Almost as though your trying to prove your superiority yet can't understand why everyone isn't agreeing with you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 08, 2014, 01:48:32 AM
Question: why do you call Jew haters anti-semite when Semite refers to more than just Jews and the person who associated anti-semite (incorrectly) to only be about Jew hating was a proto Nazi?  Why not just say "anti-jew" and deny the Nazis of their word?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 04:30:15 AM
Question: why do you call Jew haters anti-semite when Semite refers to more than just Jews and the person who associated anti-semite (incorrectly) to only be about Jew hating was a proto Nazi?  Why not just say "anti-jew" and deny the Nazis of their word?

The rest of what you said wasn't worth a response. This, however, is a worthwhile question. Whatever I may think of the origin of the word, the fact remains that, in the English language, and in several others, the word "anti-Semite" has come to be accepted as being the appropriate word to describe a person who despises Jews. It doesn't matter that the term is not scientific. Its just like the fact that we still tend to divide the human species into races, even though most of us know that race itself has no meaningful relevance from an anthropological or scientific point of view.

The fact that the term "anti-Semite" refers to a person who hates Jews, even if that person is an Arab, and is therefore a Semite, is not my problem. Welcome to the joys of the language.

QUOTE: "MYTH

“Arabs cannot be anti-Semitic as they are themselves Semites.”

FACT

The term “anti-Semite” was coined in Germany in 1879 by Wilhelm Marr to refer to the anti-Jewish manifestations of the period and to give Jew-hatred a more scientific sounding name.1 “Anti-Semitism” has been accepted and understood to mean hatred of the Jewish people. Dictionaries define the term as: “Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews” and “Hostility towards Jews as a religious or racial minority group, often accompanied by social, economic and political discrimination.”2

The claim that Arabs as “Semites” cannot possibly be anti-Semitic is a semantic distortion that ignores the reality of Arab discrimination and hostility toward Jews. Arabs, like any other people, can indeed be anti-Semitic.

“The Arab world is the last bastion of unbridled, unashamed, unhidden and unbelievable anti-Semitism. Hitlerian myths get published in the popular press as incontrovertible truths. The Holocaust either gets minimized or denied....How the Arab world will ever come to terms with Israel when Israelis are portrayed as the devil incarnate is hard to figure out.”

— Columnist Richard Cohen3

1Vamberto Morais, A Short History of Anti-Semitism, (NY: W.W Norton and Co., 1976), p. 11; Bernard Lewis, Semites & Anti-Semites, (NY: WW Norton &Co., 1986), p. 81.
2Oxford English Dictionary; Webster’s Third International Dictionary.
3Washington Post, (October 30, 2001)."


Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFtreatment.html#n1
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 08, 2014, 04:31:35 AM
Because there's about 1 atheist (not non-religious) to every 10 theists in pretty much every country around the world.

Um, no. A lot of European countries are 50%+ atheist.

Atheist or non-religious? Regardless, everyone knows America is the whole world, eurofag.

Atheistic religions aren't particularly common in Europe, so I don't know why you're asking.
Are you implying that if someone is non-religious, they have to be atheist?

No.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 05:10:11 AM
QUOTE: "Are you implying that if someone is non-religious, they have to be atheist?"

"No." END QUOTE.

This is an interesting discussion. What exactly constitutes "Religious" vs "Observant" vs "Spiritual" vs anything else, for that matter? Lets look at the three words I've quoted specifically.

Religious: People normally associate this word with a person who belongs to an established denomination (in the US, Christianity, but it can apply to non-Christian beliefs as well) of a Faith, and who observes its beliefs, and follows its doctrinal rules strictly. Often times, these are people who pray in response to issues, and they expect a response from God as a result of their religiosity. So, in the case of a religious Jew, if his car goes off a bridge, and he prays to survive, and in fact does, he will account it to prayers answered due to his religiosity.

Observant: This word generally is associated with people, particularly Jews, who observe the rituals of their Faith with extreme punctuality, not because they expect a response from God, but because they have been told to do so by the Deity, irrespective of His response or lack thereof. Therefore, if the Observant Jew goes off the bridge, and lives to tell about it, he probably won't choose to account it to God. In other words, he believes in God, but is hardly arrogant enough to think that God plans his day around his troubles. He will account his living to the fact that he managed to get the door open fast enough to get the hell out of the damned car before it sank.

Spiritual: This describes a person who believes in a Higher Power of some sort, but essentially creates his own belief structure. It is very hard to categorise this person, because there are as many types of "spirituality" as their are "spiritual persons". The word can be used in a more orthodox sense to refer to the spirituality of the Catholic Church, or Tibetan Buddhists, or Sunni Muslims, or the Jews, or what have you, but for the purpose of this discussion, we will use the first definition, in opposition to the first two words above. If the spiritual person goes off the bridge and lives, he will probably thank the divine spark within him for keeping his spirit alive to do more good for others that much longer, or some such thing as that. It differs with each "spiritual person".

In a nutshell, there you have it, friends.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 08, 2014, 07:13:46 AM
Question: why do you call Jew haters anti-semite when Semite refers to more than just Jews and the person who associated anti-semite (incorrectly) to only be about Jew hating was a proto Nazi?  Why not just say "anti-jew" and deny the Nazis of their word?

The rest of what you said wasn't worth a response.
I'm glad you admit the superiority of my argument.  Thanks. :)

Quote
This, however, is a worthwhile question. Whatever I may think of the origin of the word, the fact remains that, in the English language, and in several others, the word "anti-Semite" has come to be accepted as being the appropriate word to describe a person who despises Jews. It doesn't matter that the term is not scientific. Its just like the fact that we still tend to divide the human species into races, even though most of us know that race itself has no meaningful relevance from an anthropological or scientific point of view.

The fact that the term "anti-Semite" refers to a person who hates Jews, even if that person is an Arab, and is therefore a Semite, is not my problem. Welcome to the joys of the language.

QUOTE: "MYTH

“Arabs cannot be anti-Semitic as they are themselves Semites.”

FACT

The term “anti-Semite” was coined in Germany in 1879 by Wilhelm Marr to refer to the anti-Jewish manifestations of the period and to give Jew-hatred a more scientific sounding name.1 “Anti-Semitism” has been accepted and understood to mean hatred of the Jewish people. Dictionaries define the term as: “Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews” and “Hostility towards Jews as a religious or racial minority group, often accompanied by social, economic and political discrimination.”2

The claim that Arabs as “Semites” cannot possibly be anti-Semitic is a semantic distortion that ignores the reality of Arab discrimination and hostility toward Jews. Arabs, like any other people, can indeed be anti-Semitic.

“The Arab world is the last bastion of unbridled, unashamed, unhidden and unbelievable anti-Semitism. Hitlerian myths get published in the popular press as incontrovertible truths. The Holocaust either gets minimized or denied....How the Arab world will ever come to terms with Israel when Israelis are portrayed as the devil incarnate is hard to figure out.”

— Columnist Richard Cohen3

1Vamberto Morais, A Short History of Anti-Semitism, (NY: W.W Norton and Co., 1976), p. 11; Bernard Lewis, Semites & Anti-Semites, (NY: WW Norton &Co., 1986), p. 81.
2Oxford English Dictionary; Webster’s Third International Dictionary.
3Washington Post, (October 30, 2001)."


Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFtreatment.html#n1
So if anti-semite eventually came to mean the proper term (anyone whose language root is Semite) then will you call yourself anti-semite as you hate Palestinians who are part of this group?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 08, 2014, 11:13:15 AM
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.

Often people "count as Christian" because they are members of a church due to having been born that way. I, for instance, am legally a Christian because I'm a member of the evangelical Lutheran church of Finland, but I also happen to be an atheist because I don't believe in God, which happens to be the only necessary factor in atheism.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 08, 2014, 11:20:02 AM
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.

Often people "count as Christian" because they are members of a church due to having been born that way. I, for instance, am legally a Christian because I'm a member of the evangelical Lutheran church of Finland, but I also happen to be an atheist because I don't believe in God, which happens to be the only necessary factor in atheism.
Ever thought about canceling your membership? I did it a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 08, 2014, 11:21:07 AM
I don't remember if I'm a Christian. I didn't do communion at school and I'm not sure if I was baptised church of England.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 08, 2014, 11:24:52 AM
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.

Often people "count as Christian" because they are members of a church due to having been born that way. I, for instance, am legally a Christian because I'm a member of the evangelical Lutheran church of Finland, but I also happen to be an atheist because I don't believe in God, which happens to be the only necessary factor in atheism.
Ever thought about canceling your membership? I did it a couple of years ago.

I've thought about it, but I don't really care enough to go through with it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 12:48:25 PM
Those State Churches can be a real bitch. You are automatically a member unless you take the time and trouble to say you are not. At least in Scandinavia. The English and the Scottish Churches are not that way, to my knowledge. But the Lutheran State Churches  of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Iceland can b e a pain to get out of, because legally you are born into them.

LORD DAVE, actually, no, you have no argument. Hence, no need to respond.

Regarding your proposal on the evolution of the word "anti-Semite", that is also a non-argument, since the word is highly unlikely to ever make such an evolution. Ergo, I am not going to have to worry about it. I already despise "Palestinians", and have never denied it. That, in present day parlance, makes me anti-"Palestinian", and possibly anti-Arab, although I have less of a problem with non-"Palestinian" Arabs.

Lets face it. Even other Arabs despise the "Palestinians". The only reason "Palestinians" have any support at all in the world is because Arabs hate Jews more than they despise the "Palestinians". But if the Jews did not exist, no self-respecting Arab would want anything to do with a "Palestinian", who at the best are classified as half-breeds by other Arabs, given their Canaanite heritage, and at worst are basically considered to be lower than the dust. I'm not trying to be insulting or nasty. I'm just telling it like it is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 08, 2014, 12:59:28 PM
LORD DAVE, actually, no, you have no argument. Hence, no need to respond.
Denial won't help you in the long run.

Quote
Regarding your proposal on the evolution of the word "anti-Semite", that is also a non-argument, since the word is highly unlikely to ever make such an evolution. Ergo, I am not going to have to worry about it. I already despise "Palestinians", and have never denied it. That, in present day parlance, makes me anti-"Palestinian", and possibly anti-Arab, although I have less of a problem with non-"Palestinian" Arabs.

Lets face it. Even other Arabs despise the "Palestinians". The only reason "Palestinians" have any support at all in the world is because Arabs hate Jews more than they despise the "Palestinians". But if the Jews did not exist, no self-respecting Arab would want anything to do with a "Palestinian", who at the best are classified as half-breeds by other Arabs, given their Canaanite heritage, and at worst are basically considered to be lower than the dust. I'm not trying to be insulting or nasty. I'm just telling it like it is.
Language changes often so its quite likely that the meaning of the word will change.  Hopefully before you die.

Also: why is it OK to be anti-muslim but jot anti-jew? 
And: do you feels Jews are given special treatment because of the holocaust and if so, is that fair?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 01:34:41 PM
Its ok to be anti-Muslim because they have a habit of blowing shit up and taking hostages when they don't like something. We don't. Neither do the Christians. As for the question regarding the Holocaust, I won't deny, sometimes we ARE given a pass because of it, the same way Negroes in the USA are given a pass because of slavery.

Is that fair? Well, it depends what you are being given a pass for. If you are being given a pass for bad behaviour, then no, it is not fair, and I shall acknowledge that some Jews do act like alter kackers and then excuse it on grounds of the victim mentality. My response to that is, "Dude! Grow the fuck up! The Holocaust ended 69 years ago. Quit whining."

Now, what about the nation of Israel? I only have a few minutes before I have to leave, so let me make this quick. The State of Israel is NOT perfect. One can, and should, be willing to criticise, or listen to constructive criticisms of the various policies of the State of Israel without automatically screaming "anti-Semitism!".

HOWEVER, and this is key, there is a difference between constructive criticism, and criticism for its own sake. To criticise Israel constructively is once thing. To criticise it because it is Israel is something yet again, and that IS anti-Semitism, and needs to be called out as such.

Israel is, facts be known, one of the kindest occupying powers in the history of the world. I challenge anybody to find me an occupying power that would allow the occupied to criticise the leaders of the occupiers, to sue in the occupier's supreme court, to request review of any action the occupying military takes, etc. You will be hard-pressed to find any occupying power in the world other than Israel that permits this.

I challenge anyone to find me a more moral army than Israel's. Israel does everything it can to try to get civilians out of the way, by dropping leaflets, by phone calls, text messages, roof knocking... find me another army that does the same.

Now, is the IDF perfect? NO! When it fucks up, should it be called out? YES! I think every Jew, Israeli and otherwise, would agree. But all told, Israel as a nation, and its army, are a helluva lot more moral than just about any other country you are going to find.

So, do some Jews demand unfair treatment because of the Holocaust? Yes. Is that unfair? Damn straight it is, and they should learn to shut the fuck up, because they make us ALL look bad. But we are NOT all that way. I have to go. I'll be back later today. See you then.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 08, 2014, 02:15:24 PM
Its ok to be anti-Muslim because they have a habit of blowing shit up and taking hostages when they don't like something.
So it's ok to be anti-x if they do things you don't like?  What if they started blowing up say... nazis?  You'd have to still be anti-muslim right?  Because they're blowing shit up and taking hostages when they don't like Nazis?  Or maybe Palistinians?  What if they blew them up and took hostages?  Wouldn't you have to still be anti-muslim?  And what about American Muslims who don't blow shit up and take hostages when they don't like something?  (and most muslims at that)  I'm only guessing but based on what I see in suicide bombings, mortar attacks, and active combat units, I'd wager the total amount of Muslims who blow shit up and take hostages isn't even reaching the millions yet.  Are you anti-muslim because a minority blow shit up and take hostages when they don't like something?

Quote
We don't. Neither do the Christians.
Uuuuhhh.....
I'm pretty sure Israel (Jews) have blown up plenty of things they don't like.  Most notably in the Arab world.  Not sure they left hostages though but they do have POWs.  Does that count?


As for the question regarding the Holocaust, I won't deny, sometimes we ARE given a pass because of it, the same way Negroes in the USA are given a pass because of slavery.

Quote
Is that fair? Well, it depends what you are being given a pass for. If you are being given a pass for bad behaviour, then no, it is not fair, and I shall acknowledge that some Jews do act like alter kackers and then excuse it on grounds of the victim mentality. My response to that is, "Dude! Grow the fuck up! The Holocaust ended 69 years ago. Quit whining."
What is ok to be given a pass for?

Quote
Now, what about the nation of Israel? I only have a few minutes before I have to leave, so let me make this quick. The State of Israel is NOT perfect. One can, and should, be willing to criticise, or listen to constructive criticisms of the various policies of the State of Israel without automatically screaming "anti-Semitism!".

HOWEVER, and this is key, there is a difference between constructive criticism, and criticism for its own sake. To criticise Israel constructively is once thing. To criticise it because it is Israel is something yet again, and that IS anti-Semitism, and needs to be called out as such.

Israel is, facts be known, one of the kindest occupying powers in the history of the world. I challenge anybody to find me an occupying power that would allow the occupied to criticise the leaders of the occupiers, to sue in the occupier's supreme court, to request review of any action the occupying military takes, etc. You will be hard-pressed to find any occupying power in the world other than Israel that permits this.

I challenge anyone to find me a more moral army than Israel's. Israel does everything it can to try to get civilians out of the way, by dropping leaflets, by phone calls, text messages, roof knocking... find me another army that does the same.

Now, is the IDF perfect? NO! When it fucks up, should it be called out? YES! I think every Jew, Israeli and otherwise, would agree. But all told, Israel as a nation, and its army, are a helluva lot more moral than just about any other country you are going to find.

So, do some Jews demand unfair treatment because of the Holocaust? Yes. Is that unfair? Damn straight it is, and they should learn to shut the fuck up, because they make us ALL look bad. But we are NOT all that way. I have to go. I'll be back later today. See you then.
So Israel IS a conquer and occupying nation.  Gotcha.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 09:51:42 PM
QUOTE: "So it's ok to be anti-x if they do things you don't like?  What if they started blowing up say... nazis?  You'd have to still be anti-muslim right?  Because they're blowing shit up and taking hostages when they don't like Nazis?  Or maybe Palistinians?  What if they blew them up and took hostages?  Wouldn't you have to still be anti-muslim?  And what about American Muslims who don't blow shit up and take hostages when they don't like something?  (and most muslims at that)  I'm only guessing but based on what I see in suicide bombings, mortar attacks, and active combat units, I'd wager the total amount of Muslims who blow shit up and take hostages isn't even reaching the millions yet.  Are you anti-muslim because a minority blow shit up and take hostages when they don't like something?"

Ok. First, Muslims don't dislike Nazis. In fact, one of the best-selling books in many Muslim countries for years has been Mein Kampf. 2nd, they don't like Jews. Their Qur'an tells then NOT to like Jews. Those are the facts of life. And the majority don't have the cajones to force the minority to STOP blowing shit up and taking hostages. Ergo, you have to treat them all alike.

Jews only blow shit up in the Arab world when the Arab world attacks them first, or plans on attacking them first (as in the Six Day War). Israel fights defensive wars. They have no designs on other countries' territory. POW's do not count as hostages, since they are taken in accordance with the laws of war.

I never denied that Israel has conquered and occupied territory. It is their right. The Land of Israel belongs to the Jews. The "Palestinians" have no rights there at all, and should be forcibly deported. Those who refuse to leave peacefully should be forced out at gunpoint. Greater Israel SHOULD be conquered, and occupied. There is no question there. Nor have I ever suggested otherwise. You can't be accused of having designs on another country's territory when its your country that was stolen from you and you are taking back what is rightfully yours.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 08, 2014, 10:50:18 PM
Ownership of land is construct of man. To insist that Jews somehow own a section of arid desert because 'holy text' is flat out retarded.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 11:00:06 PM
Well, at least you can spell the word ''retarded" correctly. That's a start. Frankly, it has less to do with the text, and more to do with the fact that the Jews took the land from the Canaanites. The Bible's history is more or less accurate in terms of the Israelites entering Canaan and taking the land from the people who lived there before. The people who lived in Canaan, and were the ancestors of modern "Palestinians" (according to "Palestinians" themselves, not me), were savage animals that engaged in human sacrifice, temple prostitution, and other social ills that the Israelites wiped out, thereby doing the world a service. Now, if you take my perspective (and that of most scholars, for that matter), "Palestinians" are a blend of Canaanite and Arab ancestry. The Canaanites deserved what they got, and still would. The Arabs are invaders in a land that is not theis, so they have to leave. So long, goodbye, auf wiedershen, etc. Have a good life, but don't have it in Greater Israel, thank you very much.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 08, 2014, 11:01:28 PM
Why don't the opposing groups just go halfsies on the land?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 11:25:18 PM
Israel has tried that. SEVERAL times. In 1947, British Mandate Palestine, which was Jordan,Israel, West Bank, and Gaza Strip, was supposed to be divided in half, the Jews said yes, the Arabs said no. Then Jordan was created as an Arab state. Then What was left of Palestine, today's Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza was supposed to go in half. The Jews said yes, the Arabs said no. Then the Jews said fuck it, and declared independence in the land they then controlled, and were summarily attacked by 6 Arab armies. They won the war, and ended up with more land than they would have had if the Arabs had said yes the second time. In 2001, Israel proposed to Yasir Arafat that he take 96% of the West Bank including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip for an independent State of Palestine. The asshole started the Second Intifada instead. Israel evacuated the Gaza Strip in 2005. They promptly were repaid by thousands of rockets being rained on their country. Now they have to control the ports of entry and the airspace of the territory to prevent this.

EVERY SINGLE TIME Israel tries to give the "Palestinians" a damn thing, they get bitten in the ass for it. So now, the Jews aren't giving a damn thing. Let the bastards suffer. That's what they deserve anyway.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 08, 2014, 11:42:53 PM
So Jews have virtually no land. They are then offered 50% of the pie and the Arabs get upset. The same offer is made again, the Arabs are still upset. The Jews, supported with massive foreign aid (for some retarded reason) win a bunch of wars, benevolently preside over the ghettoization of the native Arabs and then offer the Arabs less than 50%. The Arabs are still upset, so the Jews silently allow apocalyptic zionists to encroach on the ghetto and build a wall around the rest. Is that about right?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 08, 2014, 11:46:30 PM
Well, at least you can spell the word ''retarded" correctly. That's a start. Frankly, it has less to do with the text, and more to do with the fact that the Jews took the land from the Canaanites. The Bible's history is more or less accurate in terms of the Israelites entering Canaan and taking the land from the people who lived there before. The people who lived in Canaan, and were the ancestors of modern "Palestinians" (according to "Palestinians" themselves, not me), were savage animals that engaged in human sacrifice, temple prostitution, and other social ills that the Israelites wiped out, thereby doing the world a service. Now, if you take my perspective (and that of most scholars, for that matter), "Palestinians" are a blend of Canaanite and Arab ancestry. The Canaanites deserved what they got, and still would. The Arabs are invaders in a land that is not theis, so they have to leave. So long, goodbye, auf wiedershen, etc. Have a good life, but don't have it in Greater Israel, thank you very much.

The Jews didn't take the land at all. It's a much more messy history than that, as many different groups of people eventually coagulated into a Jewish community back then (including Canaanites themselves). Besides, who gives a fuck what happened thousands of years ago? The area has changed hands numerous times since then.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 08, 2014, 11:48:29 PM
Sounds like the Jews are just as bad as the Arabs in this situation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 08, 2014, 11:59:08 PM
Jews and Arabs are both humans? Well, colour me surprised!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 09, 2014, 12:47:19 AM
So Jews have virtually no land. They are then offered 50% of the pie and the Arabs get upset. The same offer is made again, the Arabs are still upset. The Jews, supported with massive foreign aid (for some retarded reason) win a bunch of wars, benevolently preside over the ghettoization of the native Arabs and then offer the Arabs less than 50%. The Arabs are still upset, so the Jews silently allow apocalyptic zionists to encroach on the ghetto and build a wall around the rest. Is that about right?

Actually, the Jews got NO foreign aid except from other Jews until AFTER the War for Independence. Israel then began receiving aid from the United States which has been steady since. I believe Germany and Britain also help. But I don't think they get much from elsewhere. And given the fact that Arabs don't belong in Greater Israel anyway, the fact that Israel was willing to share is pretty cool to me. I have no sympathy for th bastards. But within the Green Line, 22% the population IS Arab, and they are happy. They vote, serve in the Knesset, serve (voluntarily; they are NOT subject to the draft as Jews are) in the IDF, they serve in on the Supreme Court, and have all the other rights and duties of citizens. And they are happy as such. Ask the avg Arab citizen of Israel if he would rather live elsewhere in the ME. He will think you are high. So don't sit there and lecture me about the big bad Jews. Show me a country in the Middle East that treats its Jews as well as Israel treats its Arab citizens. "Palestinians" are not citizens, but occupied persons. They get what they have been dishing out, and they have to FUCKING LIKE IT! I have no sympathy for them.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 09, 2014, 12:57:20 AM
What would you say to the accusation that Judaism has caused more problems than it has solved? Arguably it has lowered the quality of life across the entire planet by a significant margin due to wars, in-fighting, and petty rules.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 09, 2014, 01:12:34 AM
So Jews have virtually no land. They are then offered 50% of the pie and the Arabs get upset. The same offer is made again, the Arabs are still upset. The Jews, supported with massive foreign aid (for some retarded reason) win a bunch of wars, benevolently preside over the ghettoization of the native Arabs and then offer the Arabs less than 50%. The Arabs are still upset, so the Jews silently allow apocalyptic zionists to encroach on the ghetto and build a wall around the rest. Is that about right?

Actually, the Jews got NO foreign aid except from other Jews until AFTER the War for Independence. Israel then began receiving aid from the United States which has been steady since. I believe Germany and Britain also help. But I don't think they get much from elsewhere. And given the fact that Arabs don't belong in Greater Israel anyway, the fact that Israel was willing to share is pretty cool to me. I have no sympathy for th bastards. But within the Green Line, 22% the population IS Arab, and they are happy. They vote, serve in the Knesset, serve (voluntarily; they are NOT subject to the draft as Jews are) in the IDF, they serve in on the Supreme Court, and have all the other rights and duties of citizens. And they are happy as such. Ask the avg Arab citizen of Israel if he would rather live elsewhere in the ME. He will think you are high. So don't sit there and lecture me about the big bad Jews. Show me a country in the Middle East that treats its Jews as well as Israel treats its Arab citizens. "Palestinians" are not citizens, but occupied persons. They get what they have been dishing out, and they have to FUCKING LIKE IT! I have no sympathy for them.
By Arabs you mean non-Muslims right?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 09, 2014, 01:41:17 AM
Actually, no. The vast majority of Arabs in Israel are indeed Muslim. They are simply among the civilised of the batch.

What would you say to the accusation that Judaism has caused more problems than it has solved? Arguably it has lowered the quality of life across the entire planet by a significant margin due to wars, in-fighting, and petty rules.


I would say that it is rather difficult to say that .02% of the population has caused too many problems for the world. In fact, given that 22% of all Nobel Prizes belong to Jews, I would say that we have had a very powerful influence for good on the world. And given the fact that most of the world gets its basic codes of ethics from Mosaic legislation (the Ten Commandments and related codes of law) (including even the Muslims), I would further say that we have been a pivotal force for ethical and moral values. Even the UN, as useless as it is, at its very best, has tried to live according to the dictates of the Jewish Scripture. Look at  what is printed on the outside of the building. Its a quote from Isaiah. "Nation shall not take up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." I would say your remark simply demonstrates gross ignorance at best, or deliberate malice at worst.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 09, 2014, 01:48:54 AM
Actually, no. The vast majority of Arabs in Israel are indeed Muslim. They are simply among the civilised of the batch.
Woah, hold on.  You said and have been saying that all Muslims are bad.  Now you're contradicting that?  WTF?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 09, 2014, 02:11:04 AM
I'm not overly fond of them. But I've always said that if Arab citizens of Israel in the Green Line are willing to take an oath of citizenship and obedience to the Israeli State, then I'm inclined to let them stay there. There are some good Muslims. The trouble is, the ones that are usually don't have the cajones to fight the ones who are assholes. But, if you can find me those who do, then I am happy to revise my opinions. I never said my opinions were immutable.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 09, 2014, 02:15:45 AM
So Jews have virtually no land. They are then offered 50% of the pie and the Arabs get upset. The same offer is made again, the Arabs are still upset. The Jews, supported with massive foreign aid (for some retarded reason) win a bunch of wars, benevolently preside over the ghettoization of the native Arabs and then offer the Arabs less than 50%. The Arabs are still upset, so the Jews silently allow apocalyptic zionists to encroach on the ghetto and build a wall around the rest. Is that about right?

Actually, the Jews got NO foreign aid except from other Jews until AFTER the War for Independence. Israel then began receiving aid from the United States which has been steady since. I believe Germany and Britain also help. But I don't think they get much from elsewhere. And given the fact that Arabs don't belong in Greater Israel anyway, the fact that Israel was willing to share is pretty cool to me. I have no sympathy for th bastards. But within the Green Line, 22% the population IS Arab, and they are happy. They vote, serve in the Knesset, serve (voluntarily; they are NOT subject to the draft as Jews are) in the IDF, they serve in on the Supreme Court, and have all the other rights and duties of citizens. And they are happy as such. Ask the avg Arab citizen of Israel if he would rather live elsewhere in the ME. He will think you are high. So don't sit there and lecture me about the big bad Jews. Show me a country in the Middle East that treats its Jews as well as Israel treats its Arab citizens. "Palestinians" are not citizens, but occupied persons. They get what they have been dishing out, and they have to FUCKING LIKE IT! I have no sympathy for them.

I wasn't complaining about the Jews, just trying to get the facts straight.  You know the assertion that the Arabs "don't belong in Greater Israel" is a huge part of the problem.  There you go waving your holy book like it should have any effect on international discourse.  It is fine that you believe internally some truly horrific and bizarre shit, and it is fine that muslims, chirstians and hindus do the same, but it has no place in the affairs of nations, as it can only serve to divide, enflame and enrage people against one another.  Especially religions, like Judaism, that so clearly define an in-group and an out-group. 

If my little tongue-in-cheek precis of the last 60 years of Israeli history did not illuminate the extremely obvious and logical reasons why Arabs are pissed off with Israel, then I doubt that you will ever desire peace and good will.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 09, 2014, 09:16:23 PM
QUOTE: "I wasn't complaining about the Jews, just trying to get the facts straight.  You know the assertion that the Arabs "don't belong in Greater Israel" is a huge part of the problem.  There you go waving your holy book like it should have any effect on international discourse.  It is fine that you believe internally some truly horrific and bizarre shit, and it is fine that muslims, chirstians and hindus do the same, but it has no place in the affairs of nations, as it can only serve to divide, enflame and enrage people against one another.  Especially religions, like Judaism, that so clearly define an in-group and an out-group. 

If my little tongue-in-cheek precis of the last 60 years of Israeli history did not illuminate the extremely obvious and logical reasons why Arabs are pissed off with Israel, then I doubt that you will ever desire peace and good will."

Your "little tongue-in-cheek precis of the last 60 years of Israeli history" did not illuminate anything other than your own ignorance. Jews have had a continuous presence in Greater Israel for 4500 years. The Bible is simply a record that proves this. Even if you don't believe in God, the Bible is accurate on the subject of the idea that Jews became masters of Canaan under Joshua.

Archaeology (as Netanyahu pointed out at the UN the other day) and history demonstrate that Israel is the homeland of the Jew, that was stolen from him by others. Now it belongs to us again, by rights. Forget about God, if you wish. The fact remains that the land is ours, and the Arabs can go screw themselves. There are 22 countries they can live in if they wish, and only ONE, TINY Jewish state. So, as far as I am concerned, the Arabs can take their complaints and $0.75 American, and go a buy a cup of f-----g coffee. That is all their opinion is worth. And peace can only be had with Arabs when you force them into submission and obedience, straight up. That is what we need to do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spoon on October 09, 2014, 09:56:20 PM
Jewish dietary restrictions are literally retarted. Why can you not mix dairy and meat?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 09, 2014, 10:41:43 PM
Ok, aside from y'all's inability to spell the word "retarded", let me break it down for you. In the Torah, There is a commandment that states, "you shall not boil a kid (the young of a goat) in its mother's milk."

Now, here is where a principle can be demonstrated. The Torah gives certain commandments. But the Rabbis who EXPLAINED the Torah wanted to "build a fence around the Torah". The idea was that if you didn't break the laws surrounding the laws, you would never get close enough to breaking the laws themselves. Now that probably doesn't make much sense. Let me explain.

So, you have the Torah, with its rules that allow or forbid certain things. You don't want to break those rules. Then, around that, you have a set of rules that exist such that, if you follow that larger set of rules, you won't come anywhere close to breaking Torah rules.

The rule you asked about is one of those. Its not in the Torah. Its one of those that the Rabbis legislated as a rule that builds a fence around the Torah. If you can't even mix milk and meat on your plate, you certainly aren't going to be able to boil a kid in the milk of its mother!

Now, before you ask the question, DO I mix milk and meat? Yes, I do. I follow strictly biblical commandments, unless I see extraordinarily good reasons to follow Rabbinically ordained ones. Obviously, if I am at Shul, or an Orthodox Jew's home, then I will follow the more strict practices. But in my personal life, I tend to disregard Rabbinical laws unless I see the value in them peronally, and there are many that I do. But there are many that I don't, and this is one of them.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 09, 2014, 11:25:37 PM
that's just retarted
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on October 09, 2014, 11:48:01 PM
I thought we'd had a holocaust and Adolfplanet had wiped all the jews from this forum?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: la xasop on October 10, 2014, 01:08:50 AM
I also happen to be an atheist because I don't believe in God, which happens to be the only necessary factor in atheism.

Incorrect. That is the only necessary factor in nontheism, which includes both agnosticism and atheism.

Agnostics don't believe in God, but they also don't believe in the absence of God. Atheists subscribe to the belief that God does not exist, in addition to not holding the belief that God exists.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 10, 2014, 03:05:31 AM
Ok, aside from y'all's inability to spell the word "retarded", let me break it down for you. In the Torah, There is a commandment that states, "you shall not boil a kid (the young of a goat) in its mother's milk."

Now, here is where a principle can be demonstrated. The Torah gives certain commandments. But the Rabbis who EXPLAINED the Torah wanted to "build a fence around the Torah". The idea was that if you didn't break the laws surrounding the laws, you would never get close enough to breaking the laws themselves. Now that probably doesn't make much sense. Let me explain.

So, you have the Torah, with its rules that allow or forbid certain things. You don't want to break those rules. Then, around that, you have a set of rules that exist such that, if you follow that larger set of rules, you won't come anywhere close to breaking Torah rules.

The rule you asked about is one of those. Its not in the Torah. Its one of those that the Rabbis legislated as a rule that builds a fence around the Torah. If you can't even mix milk and meat on your plate, you certainly aren't going to be able to boil a kid in the milk of its mother!

Now, before you ask the question, DO I mix milk and meat? Yes, I do. I follow strictly biblical commandments, unless I see extraordinarily good reasons to follow Rabbinically ordained ones. Obviously, if I am at Shul, or an Orthodox Jew's home, then I will follow the more strict practices. But in my personal life, I tend to disregard Rabbinical laws unless I see the value in them peronally, and there are many that I do. But there are many that I don't, and this is one of them.

All things considered, due to commercialization of farms, the probability of you eating beef while simultaneously drinking milk from its mother is ridiculously high.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 10, 2014, 03:35:01 AM
Jewish dietary restrictions are literally retarted. Why can you not mix dairy and meat?
From what I heard, it was essentially an issue of cross contamination.  Wooden bowls, utensils and such were common back in the day and could be very difficult to clean as thoroughly as you might like.  Bits of dairy products could get caught in the tiny cracks of the wood and contaminate the meat or vice versa.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 10, 2014, 03:46:10 AM
Agnostics don't believe in God, but they also don't believe in the absence of God. Atheists subscribe to the belief that God does not exist, in addition to not holding the belief that God exists.
Yeah, no. This is a common mistake propagated by religious people, possibly because it lets them use convenient tactics like "but you can't prove that there is no god!"

Atheism is the rejection of the belief in the existence of any deities, but it does not make any assertion about the non-existence of gods either. A person holds the belief or makes the claim that no deities exist is an antitheist, or a gnostic atheist.

An agnostic is a person who acknowledges that they cannot be certain of their position on theism, as there is no real evidence to conclude god or no god, while a gnostic would make a claim that they know their position is correct. An agnostic may be a theist, atheist, or antitheist (or anything else).

(A)gnosticism is essentially independent of (a)theism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFfrhiL4gwU
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 11:38:15 AM
IRUSH, that risk does not exist on a kosher farm.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 12:47:25 PM
Well. As much as I am NOT fond of Muslims, I think the choices this year for the Nobel Peace Prize were brilliant. Malala Yousefsai (sp?) of Pakistan and the Hindu gentleman of India were perfect. Gandhi would have been proud. This marks the second time that a Muslim has won a Nobel Prize, the first time being one in Literature. This also marks the youngest Peace Prize recipient ever, with Malala being just 17.

I truly am VERY happy to see them both win, especially young Malala. She has a proud and bright future ahead of her. But a Hindu of India and a Muslim of Pakistan winning together is truly brilliant, given the history of bad blood between those religions and those countries. May God bless them both, and may the cause of peace be advanced between both countries and their respective faiths. Omein.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 10, 2014, 01:14:13 PM
You are still a bigot. This is the equivalent of saying "I am not a bigot, I have a Muslim friend"
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 01:34:26 PM
Actually, I do have a Muslim friend, but that is beside the point. I never denied not liking Muslims, and the fact that Malala is a wonderful child who deserved this award, and is a compliment to her people, her faith, and to the human race does not change the fact that most Muslims are dangerous. The fact that I have a good Muslim friend doesn't change that either.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 10, 2014, 01:49:17 PM
most muslims?  as in over 500M?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 01:51:51 PM
Pretty much, yes. I personally think they are not a threat as long as they stay in their part of the world. But in our country, or other non-Muslim nations, they are dangerous, and must be deported forthwith.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on October 10, 2014, 02:48:08 PM
Yaakov, why do Jews cut their penises off?  Serious question. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 03:17:16 PM
First off, let me specify that we don't cut off our penises, and neither do Muslims, who also have the rite of circumcision. Now, as to WHY God ordered Abraham to remove the foreskin of Isaac's penis at age 8 days, and at the same time remove the foreskin of Ishmael's penis (Ishmael was 13 years old; OUCH!), I don't know. The Bible simply says that God ordered Abraham to do it. He also had to do it to himself (MAJOR OUCH!). The Bible only says that God commanded it as a mark to indicate that Jews were in the covenant relationship with God.

Now, Jews are the children of Isaac, and have continued to perform this act to infants at the age of 8 days. Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael and continue to do this ceremony on boys at the age of 13 years. Now, Ishmael was NOT the son of the Promise, Isaac was. Hence the Bible said that Ishmael would become a great nation, which he did, founding the 12 Tribes of Arabia. So he was not neglected by God, but he was not the son of the Promise in the way that Isaac was.

But back to circumcision as a commandment. The Bible doesn't explain, why that as opposed to something else. Now, it is possible that the Talmud does. I have not examined the subject. I don't have the Talmud in my library, because I can't afford it, quite frankly. The whole collection of 20 odd books costs several hundred dollars. I do have a compendium of Jewish Law that might explain it, or at least attempt to. I shall do some research in my compendium, and perhaps visit the library at the shul and see what I can find in the Talmud. Perhaps the Rabbi can explain it to me as well. I shall tell you my answer if and when I get one.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on October 10, 2014, 03:36:48 PM
Kind of seems like a scam.  Once you cut your penis, you can't grow it back, so they have you. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 03:42:03 PM
It depends on where you live. In America, many infants are circumcised so that they can better clean their penis, and so that they are less likely to catch HIV/AIDS and other STDs from a female partner, as circumcision has proven to reduce this problem as well. So, in a country where many are circumcised, a person's lack of foreskin will not be remarked on. Now, I suppose if you live in a country wherein circumcision is not practiced much, you might have some issues if you drop your pants in front of other persons (say, in the military for a "nuts and butts" exam). Certainly it was easy for the Nazis to figure out who the Jewish men were. All they had to do was require a man to drop his pants. Non-Jewish German men at that time did not circumcise their boys.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 10, 2014, 03:51:37 PM
Circumcision decreases the penis's sensitivity with regards to sex.  This story was likely created to quell the pleasure of sex at an early age.

AIDS/HIV did not exist (or were not know of) at the time so that's not a reason.

Its also possible that Abraham was a sick bastard who decided to mutilate the penis of his sons out of insanity or mental illness and y'all assumed God said so.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on October 10, 2014, 03:58:07 PM
It depends on where you live. In America, many infants are circumcised so that they can better clean their penis, and so that they are less likely to catch HIV/AIDS and other STDs from a female partner, as circumcision has proven to reduce this problem as well. So, in a country where many are circumcised, a person's lack of foreskin will not be remarked on. Now, I suppose if you live in a country wherein circumcision is not practiced much, you might have some issues if you drop your pants in front of other persons (say, in the military for a "nuts and butts" exam). Certainly it was easy for the Nazis to figure out who the Jewish men were. All they had to do was require a man to drop his pants. Non-Jewish German men at that time did not circumcise their boys.

Why do Jews worry so much about STDs?  Are you permiscuous? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 10, 2014, 05:24:11 PM
I don't have the Talmud in my library, because I can't afford it, quite frankly. The whole collection of 20 odd books costs several hundred dollars.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm#t01

For free!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 06:08:31 PM
Thank you Rama Set. PLEASE NOTE: This is the Babylonian Talmud only. There is also a Palestinian Talmud. The two of them together make up the whole Talmud. They were each prepared in parts where Jews were then living (during the approximate years 500 BC-500 AD). Please also scroll up and read the brief intro to the site that Rama Set so kindly provided.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 10, 2014, 07:05:50 PM
Circumcision decreases the penis's sensitivity with regards to sex.  This story was likely created to quell the pleasure of sex at an early age.

AIDS/HIV did not exist (or were not know of) at the time so that's not a reason.

Its also possible that Abraham was a sick bastard who decided to mutilate the penis of his sons out of insanity or mental illness and y'all assumed God said so.
If you're cutting children's penises because a voice told you so, then yeah you're probably crazy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 08:30:56 PM
I expect other STD's did exist, however, even though HIV/AIDS didn't. It does, from what I have been told, desensitize the penis a bit. I would suggest that denial of God's existence makes one crazy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 10, 2014, 10:00:54 PM
I expect other STD's did exist, however, even though HIV/AIDS didn't.
Since blood tests didn't exist either, any STD would have been one that has easily identifiable symptoms.  And such women with those were loose and not worth marrying.  And as we all know, it was a sin to have sex out of wedlock and all married women are virgins on their wedding day so this, theory doesn't hold water.

Quote
It does, from what I have been told, desensitize the penis a bit.

It does.


Quote
I would suggest that denial of God's existence makes one crazy.

I'm crazy for other reasons.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 10, 2014, 10:50:34 PM
Quite

I don't have the Talmud in my library, because I can't afford it, quite frankly. The whole collection of 20 odd books costs several hundred dollars.

So you're willing to advocate the extermination or relocation or Muslims for your faith, but not pay a few hundred dollars? I see.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 10, 2014, 11:25:17 PM
If someone claimed to be God, what would convince you that it really is God?  Like if you found a burning bush that spoke to you (like Moses) how would you know it's God and not a guy with a speaker in a burning bush?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 11, 2014, 04:38:20 AM
I expect other STD's did exist, however, even though HIV/AIDS didn't. It does, from what I have been told, desensitize the penis a bit. I would suggest that denial of God's existence makes one crazy.

It's crazy to reject something that's completely unverifiable?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 11, 2014, 04:57:02 AM
QUOTE: "Since blood tests didn't exist either, any STD would have been one that has easily identifiable symptoms.  And such women with those were loose and not worth marrying.  And as we all know, it was a sin to have sex out of wedlock and all married women are virgins on their wedding day so this, theory doesn't hold water."

Well, for an interesting take on prostitution, read about Judah and Tamar in Gen. 38.

I don't anticipate being spoken to by a voice in a burning bush. So the point is irrelevant. And remember, the bush burned but was not consumed. First off, SOMEONE wouldn't convince me. SOMEONE implies a human being. We don't believe that humans can be God. We leave that to the Christians, who believe that Jesus is God.

So anything claiming to be God would have to be non-human or non-animal, presumably non-corporeal. So, how would YOU determine it was God?

And yes, it is crazy to believe that the entire universe and all that therein lies is an accident. Again, for further argumentation, read Anselm's Argument of Ontology.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Sean on October 11, 2014, 05:42:49 AM
The God argument is bad. The universe can not exist without creation but God can.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 11, 2014, 06:07:13 AM
And yes, it is crazy to believe that the entire universe and all that therein lies is an accident. Again, for further argumentation, read Anselm's Argument of Ontology.

But then what created God? If everything has a beginning, then God must too. If God is eternal, then why can't the Universe also be eternal?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 11, 2014, 12:08:30 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 01:09:53 PM
So the big bang and the age of the universe is perfectly solved in your mind, but God is necessary as well? What a strange view you have there.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 11, 2014, 01:15:35 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

Who said the universe was created by accident. A lack of intelligent will does not automatically make something accidental. That is a non-sequitur. It is a mistake commonly made when conceptualizing evolution through natural selection. Based on our current knowledge the creation of the universe was likely non-random.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 11, 2014, 02:08:49 PM
QUOTE: "Since blood tests didn't exist either, any STD would have been one that has easily identifiable symptoms.  And such women with those were loose and not worth marrying.  And as we all know, it was a sin to have sex out of wedlock and all married women are virgins on their wedding day so this, theory doesn't hold water."

Well, for an interesting take on prostitution, read about Judah and Tamar in Gen. 38.
Unless it says that prostitutes are perfectly ok to marry, its irrelevant to the discussion or why God would give you foreskin then say "cut it off" a few thousand years after doing so.  Doesn't make much sense now does it?

Quote
I don't anticipate being spoken to by a voice in a burning bush. So the point is irrelevant. And remember, the bush burned but was not consumed. First off, SOMEONE wouldn't convince me. SOMEONE implies a human being. We don't believe that humans can be God. We leave that to the Christians, who believe that Jesus is God.

So anything claiming to be God would have to be non-human or non-animal, presumably non-corporeal.
God can't appear to you as a human, animal, or other physical object?  Wow, your god is pretty limited.  (Appear being not the same as IS.  So Jesus IS a human but God could appear to you looking like an old man who can walk through walls) 

Quote
So, how would YOU determine it was God?
I can't.  To determine someone or something is God, I have to first believe that God exists.  I do not. 
You, however, do.  Hence why I'm asking you.  I mean, if Moses accepted a burning bush with a disembodied voice, why can't you?  I'm sure he didn't think he'd see one either.

Quote
And yes, it is crazy to believe that the entire universe and all that therein lies is an accident. Again, for further argumentation, read Anselm's Argument of Ontology.
Except God.  He was totally an accident. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 11, 2014, 05:45:17 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

Who said the universe was created by accident. A lack of intelligent will does not automatically make something accidental. That is a non-sequitur. It is a mistake commonly made when conceptualizing evolution through natural selection. Based on our current knowledge the creation of the universe was likely non-random.

You would have to find a very good explanation to prove to me that the creation of the Universe was non-random, and yet non-intelligent. That is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever had the misfortune of every hearing. Not that you are dumb, which you are clearly not, but that the statement you uttered was.

QUOTE: "Since blood tests didn't exist either, any STD would have been one that has easily identifiable symptoms.  And such women with those were loose and not worth marrying.  And as we all know, it was a sin to have sex out of wedlock and all married women are virgins on their wedding day so this, theory doesn't hold water."

Well, for an interesting take on prostitution, read about Judah and Tamar in Gen. 38.
Unless it says that prostitutes are perfectly ok to marry, its irrelevant to the discussion or why God would give you foreskin then say "cut it off" a few thousand years after doing so.  Doesn't make much sense now does it?

Quote
I don't anticipate being spoken to by a voice in a burning bush. So the point is irrelevant. And remember, the bush burned but was not consumed. First off, SOMEONE wouldn't convince me. SOMEONE implies a human being. We don't believe that humans can be God. We leave that to the Christians, who believe that Jesus is God.

So anything claiming to be God would have to be non-human or non-animal, presumably non-corporeal.
God can't appear to you as a human, animal, or other physical object?  Wow, your god is pretty limited.  (Appear being not the same as IS.  So Jesus IS a human but God could appear to you looking like an old man who can walk through walls) 

Quote
So, how would YOU determine it was God?
I can't.  To determine someone or something is God, I have to first believe that God exists.  I do not. 
You, however, do.  Hence why I'm asking you.  I mean, if Moses accepted a burning bush with a disembodied voice, why can't you?  I'm sure he didn't think he'd see one either.

Quote
And yes, it is crazy to believe that the entire universe and all that therein lies is an accident. Again, for further argumentation, read Anselm's Argument of Ontology.
Except God.  He was totally an accident. 

God COULD appear as a human, or anything else for that matter. However, that would NOT be in line with how God has chosen to reveal himself to the Jewish People for 4500 years. So I suspect that doing so would be very unlikely. Praying to a human or animal is directly forbidden in Judaism. I don't think that God would appear as something to which Jews are forbidden to pray.

Foreskin was ordered to be removed as a sign of being part of the Covenant. Why that and not something else, I am uncertain. I don't particularly care, however. It is what it is. The benefits to it outweigh the negatives.

God was not an accident, since he has ALWAYS existed, without beginning, and without end.

As for determining that something was God if I saw it, I have no frame of reference for doing that, as I have never had the experience. I recommend you read Torah. That might give you some ideas as to how certain people handled the issue.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 11, 2014, 06:05:38 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

Who said the universe was created by accident. A lack of intelligent will does not automatically make something accidental. That is a non-sequitur. It is a mistake commonly made when conceptualizing evolution through natural selection. Based on our current knowledge the creation of the universe was likely non-random.

You would have to find a very good explanation to prove to me that the creation of the Universe was non-random, and yet non-intelligent. That is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever had the misfortune of every hearing. Not that you are dumb, which you are clearly not, but that the statement you uttered was.

How exactly are you defining the word random?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 06:14:13 PM
>causality is a stupid idea

uhhh lol

Also, the big bang couldn't have been accidental if there isn't a god, because accidents are unexpected or unintentional events and there would have to be a cognitive being with the ability to expect or have the intent for something else in order for an event to be an accident. As for whether or not it was random, it's impossible to know so I don't know why it would be stupid to believe either way. It's not like random events are particularly remarkable, especially since the big bang theoretically had an unlimited amount of time to occur at random - which makes its occurrence given a long enough timespan a near certainty.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 11, 2014, 06:21:35 PM
You would have to find a very good explanation to prove to me that the creation of the Universe was non-random, and yet non-intelligent. That is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever had the misfortune of every hearing. Not that you are dumb, which you are clearly not, but that the statement you uttered was.
The creation of snowflakes is non-random and non-intelligent.  Just saying.

Quote
God COULD appear as a human, or anything else for that matter. However, that would NOT be in line with how God has chosen to reveal himself to the Jewish People for 4500 years. So I suspect that doing so would be very unlikely. Praying to a human or animal is directly forbidden in Judaism. I don't think that God would appear as something to which Jews are forbidden to pray.
Jews can pray to burning bushes?

Quote
Foreskin was ordered to be removed as a sign of being part of the Covenant. Why that and not something else, I am uncertain. I don't particularly care, however. It is what it is. The benefits to it outweigh the negatives.
So did Abraham remove his own foreskin?
Also, isn't that kind of Gay?  I mean, how do jewish men identify other jewish men?  Why they have to look at each other's penises right?
And what about women?  Not allowed to be in a Covenant?
And did God confirm this with anyone else other than Abraham?  If someone came upp to you and said "God came to me as a tree shaking without wind and told me to cut my arm to show servitude."  Would you?

Quote
God was not an accident, since he has ALWAYS existed, without beginning, and without end.
Replace God with Universe.  Just because the earliest we have is a big bang, doesn't mean that was the start nor does it mean that this is the only universe to have ever existed.

Quote
As for determining that something was God if I saw it, I have no frame of reference for doing that, as I have never had the experience. I recommend you read Torah. That might give you some ideas as to how certain people handled the issue.
So basically you believe God exists but God himself couldn't prove it to you.  No wonder he doesn't talk to you.

Also: Every way in the Torah can be faked using modern technology.  Not sure it applies.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 11, 2014, 06:33:20 PM
ran·dom
ˈrandəm/Submit
adjective
1.
made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
"a random sample of 100 households"
synonyms:   unsystematic, unmethodical, arbitrary, unplanned, undirected, casual, indiscriminate, nonspecific, haphazard, stray, erratic; More
antonyms:   systematic
STATISTICS
governed by or involving equal chances for each item.
(of masonry) with stones of irregular size and shape.
2.
informal
odd, unusual, or unexpected.
"I find it impossible to not laugh at such a random guy"

>causality is a stupid idea

uhhh lol

Also, the big bang couldn't have been accidental if there isn't a god, because accidents are unexpected or unintentional events and there would have to be a cognitive being with the ability to expect or have the intent for something else in order for an event to be an accident. As for whether or not it was random, it's impossible to know so I don't know why it would be stupid to believe either way. It's not like random events are particularly remarkable, especially since the big bang theoretically had an unlimited amount of time to occur at random - which makes its occurrence given a long enough timespan a near certainty.

Since NOTHING, not even time, existed before the Big Bang, other than God, there was NO TIME in which something could have occurred randomly.

You would have to find a very good explanation to prove to me that the creation of the Universe was non-random, and yet non-intelligent. That is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever had the misfortune of every hearing. Not that you are dumb, which you are clearly not, but that the statement you uttered was.
The creation of snowflakes is non-random and non-intelligent.  Just saying.

Quote
God COULD appear as a human, or anything else for that matter. However, that would NOT be in line with how God has chosen to reveal himself to the Jewish People for 4500 years. So I suspect that doing so would be very unlikely. Praying to a human or animal is directly forbidden in Judaism. I don't think that God would appear as something to which Jews are forbidden to pray.
Jews can pray to burning bushes?

Quote
Foreskin was ordered to be removed as a sign of being part of the Covenant. Why that and not something else, I am uncertain. I don't particularly care, however. It is what it is. The benefits to it outweigh the negatives.
So did Abraham remove his own foreskin?
Also, isn't that kind of Gay?  I mean, how do jewish men identify other jewish men?  Why they have to look at each other's penises right?
And what about women?  Not allowed to be in a Covenant?
And did God confirm this with anyone else other than Abraham?  If someone came upp to you and said "God came to me as a tree shaking without wind and told me to cut my arm to show servitude."  Would you?

Quote
God was not an accident, since he has ALWAYS existed, without beginning, and without end.
Replace God with Universe.  Just because the earliest we have is a big bang, doesn't mean that was the start nor does it mean that this is the only universe to have ever existed.

Quote
As for determining that something was God if I saw it, I have no frame of reference for doing that, as I have never had the experience. I recommend you read Torah. That might give you some ideas as to how certain people handled the issue.
So basically you believe God exists but God himself couldn't prove it to you.  No wonder he doesn't talk to you.

Also: Every way in the Torah can be faked using modern technology.  Not sure it applies.

Snowflakes are created by God, each one of them, and are NOT random in any way. There IS an intelligence behind them.

No, Jews cannot pray to burning bushes. Your point is well made. But, it is far more likely that someone would worship a person as a saint or something if they thought it was God, as the Christians do with Jesus. Besides that, we do not believe that the bush was God. We believe that God was in the bush, if you will. But your point is well taken. Suffice it to say that we do not worship any kind of image. Our God is utterly incorporeal.

Abraham actually did circumcise himself. Women are part of the Covenant, but there is no physical indicator of that.

Modern technology did not exist 4500 years ago. Your point?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 06:39:48 PM
ran·dom
ˈrandəm/Submit
adjective
1.
made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
"a random sample of 100 households"
synonyms:   unsystematic, unmethodical, arbitrary, unplanned, undirected, casual, indiscriminate, nonspecific, haphazard, stray, erratic; More
antonyms:   systematic
STATISTICS
governed by or involving equal chances for each item.
(of masonry) with stones of irregular size and shape.
2.
informal
odd, unusual, or unexpected.
"I find it impossible to not laugh at such a random guy"

ok?

Quote
Since NOTHING, not even time, existed before the Big Bang, other than God, there was NO TIME in which something could have occurred randomly.

[citation needed]
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 06:40:52 PM
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 06:45:23 PM
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 06:48:28 PM
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!

Are you trying to say that time is not an abstract concept? I'm confused by your snide coolness.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 11, 2014, 06:51:35 PM
Is Jew gold worth more than plain gold?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 06:59:16 PM
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!

Are you trying to say that time is not an abstract concept? I'm confused by your snide coolness.

I'm just wondering why you think "abstract concept" means anything in this context, or how you followed that to the conclusion that its existence is relative to observation

I guess time didn't exist before humans came around, wow!!!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 07:00:01 PM
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!

Are you trying to say that time is not an abstract concept? I'm confused by your snide coolness.

I'm just wondering why you think "abstract concept" means anything in this context, or how you followed that to the conclusion that its existence is relative to observation

I guess time didn't exist before humans came around, wow!!!

Maybe this will help you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time

& http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 07:05:40 PM
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!

Are you trying to say that time is not an abstract concept? I'm confused by your snide coolness.

I'm just wondering why you think "abstract concept" means anything in this context, or how you followed that to the conclusion that its existence is relative to observation

I guess time didn't exist before humans came around, wow!!!

Maybe this will help you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time

& http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest

It doesn't, please explane
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 07:05:59 PM
No.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 11, 2014, 07:19:23 PM
The existence of time is completely dependent on observation. If an entity does not exist that can observe a passage of time (e.g. retain some form of memory or recording of the past) then the past effectively does not exist. This is true unless you can provably show a passage of time without observation. You would need experimental evidence of a chronoton or some other form of "time particle." Otherwise, time really doesn't exist, only the present exists. The future or past is an invention of the human mind.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 11, 2014, 07:20:53 PM
The question of "If a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?", is reminiscent of the issue of the minyan in Judaism. To have a full quorum for prayer, there must be 10 adult males in the Orthodox tradition, or 10 adult persons (men or women) in the Conservative tradition. If there are less, the service is shortened drastically.

I have often wondered at this. It seems to me that, even if there is only one Jew praying, what about the countless Angels singing glory to God as well, with whom (notice I did not say TO WHOM) we pray? Why aren't they counted? Note that the Reform do NOT count the Minyan. The service is the same if there are 2 Jews or 50 Jews.

So back to the tree. Of course it makes a noise. Even if you aren't there, SOMETHING is. Another human, or a fox, or a rodent, or SOMETHING is there! It wouldn't break in a vacuum. And even if it did, the Angels would be there to hear it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 07:21:43 PM
The existence of time is completely dependent on observation. If an entity does not exist that can observe a passage of time (e.g. retain some form of memory or recording of the past) then the past effectively does not exist.

It's impossible to tell whether you're being ironic or not.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 07:25:55 PM
Time is hypothesized to be the 4th dimension. I think scientists came to this conclusion because of time dilation. So it's something. Maybe it's just a byproduct of mass? The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however. That's not going to change. Like Rushy said, unless you can prove that there are time particles or some other such thing then I don't understand the point you're trying to make, Blanko.

And Yaakov, what if there are no rodents to observe the tree? Please don't cite angels.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 07:37:41 PM
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 07:39:47 PM
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.

I personally agree, but that is still debatable.

Sorry for my poor word choice.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 07:42:07 PM
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.

I personally agree, but that is still debatable.

Sorry for my poor word choice.

It's as debatable as saying that your observations are incorrect and that time doesn't exist at all, period. After all, you couldn't possibly prove otherwise :^)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 07:43:18 PM
Exactly.

Time hurts my head.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 11, 2014, 07:43:34 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

That was the beginning of the observable Universe, yes. There are many theories regarding how our Universe came about, none of them involve a God.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 07:44:02 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

That was the beginning of the observable Universe, yes. There are many theories regarding how our Universe came about, none of them involve a God.

What about creation science?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 11, 2014, 07:47:55 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

That was the beginning of the observable Universe, yes. There are many theories regarding how our Universe came about, none of them involve a God.

What about creation science?

No such thing. Creation myth is more accurate.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 11, 2014, 07:52:17 PM
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.

Prove it. Prove to me that time is a literal, concrete object that exists regardless of observation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 11, 2014, 07:59:42 PM
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.

Prove it. Prove to me that time is a literal, concrete object that exists regardless of observation.

Nobody made that claim.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 11, 2014, 08:02:49 PM
Nobody made that claim.

Except that Blanko is claiming that time would still exist if no one was there to see it while simultaneously saying it is an abstract idea. Abstract ideas don't exist outside of the human mind, which is why they are abstract in the first place. So yes, Blanko did make that claim.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 11, 2014, 08:10:40 PM
Nobody made that claim.

Except that Blanko is claiming that time would still exist if no one was there to see it while simultaneously saying it is an abstract idea. Abstract ideas don't exist outside of the human mind, which is why they are abstract in the first place. So yes, Blanko did make that claim.

Please show me where Blanko or anybody else made the claim that time is an object.

Furthermore, "time" is just an abstraction of a real phenomenon. Matter and energy can change without being observed, and time is just that: the movement of energy and matter.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 08:15:23 PM
Fuck off and take it to the other thread.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 12, 2014, 10:35:17 AM
QUOTE from Vaux: "And Yaakov, what if there are no rodents to observe the tree? Please don't cite angels."

Why can't I cite Angels? The Talmud, and the Qur'an both cite Angels and Djinn. Angels are made of Light, and Djinn are made of Smokeless Fire.  Humans are made of Dust (sometimes translated as Clay).

Your refusal to accept either Djinn or Angels does not speak for their non-existence, but rather, for your own ignorance of their existence. Judaism and Islam acknowledge belief in both. Christianity at least acknowledges belief in Angels and rebellious Angels (Demons), as does Islam. Judaism doesn't accept that idea, hence the lack of belief in Hell. Other religions also cite belief in Angels. Among them are Mormonism, Zoroastrianism, various forms of Hinduism, Yazidis, and other related groups in Iraq and surrounding countries.

The fundamental fact is that a good 90% of the world is theistic. Even the Buddhist world, at least in its Tibetan form, is theistic. To deny the existence of God, to espouse open atheism, is to be a small minority. Although I don't dispute your right to do so, I certainly don't believe that the onus is on me to prove my case. The Ontological Argument has already done that.

I don't accept "Creation Science" any more than Richard Dawkins does. Frankly, I consider it a load of crap. Even assuming I accepted a literal interpretation of Genesis (and I am not so sure that I do), the text never claimed to be a frigging science book. Those who take it as such have their head stuck in their ass, in my own opinion.

But to stop me from mentioning Angels and Djinn just because you yourself do not believe in them is simply absurd. What if a Djinn decided to make its presence known, as they are sometimes known to do?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 12, 2014, 03:27:40 PM
QUOTE from Vaux: "And Yaakov, what if there are no rodents to observe the tree? Please don't cite angels."

Why can't I cite Angels? The Talmud, and the Qur'an both cite Angels and Djinn. Angels are made of Light, and Djinn are made of Smokeless Fire.  Humans are made of Dust (sometimes translated as Clay).

Your refusal to accept either Djinn or Angels does not speak for their non-existence, but rather, for your own ignorance of their existence. Judaism and Islam acknowledge belief in both. Christianity at least acknowledges belief in Angels and rebellious Angels (Demons), as does Islam. Judaism doesn't accept that idea, hence the lack of belief in Hell. Other religions also cite belief in Angels. Among them are Mormonism, Zoroastrianism, various forms of Hinduism, Yazidis, and other related groups in Iraq and surrounding countries.

The fundamental fact is that a good 90% of the world is theistic. Even the Buddhist world, at least in its Tibetan form, is theistic. To deny the existence of God, to espouse open atheism, is to be a small minority. Although I don't dispute your right to do so, I certainly don't believe that the onus is on me to prove my case. The Ontological Argument has already done that.

I don't accept "Creation Science" any more than Richard Dawkins does. Frankly, I consider it a load of crap. Even assuming I accepted a literal interpretation of Genesis (and I am not so sure that I do), the text never claimed to be a frigging science book. Those who take it as such have their head stuck in their ass, in my own opinion.

But to stop me from mentioning Angels and Djinn just because you yourself do not believe in them is simply absurd. What if a Djinn decided to make its presence known, as they are sometimes known to do?
And what do you base the existence of angels and djinn on?  Is it because your Rabbi said so?  Is it because a 4,000 year old book says so?  Or is it because everyone around you says so?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 12, 2014, 03:59:39 PM
QUOTE from Lord Dave: "And what do you base the existence of angels and djinn on?  Is it because your Rabbi said so?  Is it because a 4,000 year old book says so?  Or is it because everyone around you says so?"

And upon what do you base their non-existence on?

I base their existence on the experience of many men in Scripture. I base the existence of Djinn on my own personal experience, which I shall not explain to you, except to say that I believe it to be a valid experience of the existence of a Djinn. And, said 4,000 yo book has been around far longer than you or me, and will continue to be around long after we are dust. I have seen no reason to accept the attacks of idiots the like of Richard Dawkins, whose name will be forgotten within a year or two of his death, I expect.

The name of Moses, however, has not been forgotten in 4500 years. So ask me which one I trust more, Moses or Richard Dawkins. I think my point has been made.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 12, 2014, 04:19:29 PM
QUOTE from Lord Dave: "And what do you base the existence of angels and djinn on?  Is it because your Rabbi said so?  Is it because a 4,000 year old book says so?  Or is it because everyone around you says so?"

And upon what do you base their non-existence on?
The same thing I base the non-existence of Unicorns.  Do YOU believe in Unicorns?  And Dragons?  Maybe the Easter Bunny?  Or what about Santa Clause?  They have stories about them.  Heck, we have tons of pictures AND they're believed by more people than all the Jews in the world.

Quote
I base their existence on the experience of many men in Scripture. I base the existence of Djinn on my own personal experience, which I shall not explain to you, except to say that I believe it to be a valid experience of the existence of a Djinn. And, said 4,000 yo book has been around far longer than you or me, and will continue to be around long after we are dust. I have seen no reason to accept the attacks of idiots the like of Richard Dawkins, whose name will be forgotten within a year or two of his death, I expect.

The name of Moses, however, has not been forgotten in 4500 years. So ask me which one I trust more, Moses or Richard Dawkins. I think my point has been made.
Neither have the great Pharos of Egypt, or the Gods of Olympus, or even Norse Gods.  Are they just as real?

Believing in the words of someone who had stuff written about them 4,000 years ago is not very credible as a source.  For all you know, Moses may not even be his real name.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 12, 2014, 05:16:15 PM
"Name
Moses' name is given to him by Pharaoh's daughter: "He became her son, and she named him Moshe (Moses)." This name may be either Egyptian or Hebrew. If connected to an Egyptian root, via msy "to be born" and ms, "a son", it forms a wordplay: "he became her son, and she named him Son." There should, however, be a divine element to the name Moses (bearers of the Egyptian name are the "son of" a god, as in Thutmose, "son of Thut"), and his full name may therefore have included the name of one of the Egyptian gods. If the name is from a Hebrew root, then it is connected to the verb "to draw out": "I drew him (masha) out of the water," states Pharaoh's daughter, possibly looking forward to Moses at the well in Midian, or to his role in saving Israel at the Red Sea. Most scholars agree that the name is Egyptian, and that the Hebrew etymology is a later interpretation.[11]" {Wikipedia}.

Therefore I expect his name was Moshe, but derived from the Egyptian, since his foster mother was Egyptian. I seriously doubt she would have called him anything in Hebrew. The fact that the word is also a word in Hebrew (meaning something else, of course), is coincidental, and lucky for us, particularly insofar as that "something else" has something to do with narrative of his birth (being drawn out of the water).

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 12, 2014, 06:39:57 PM
If I were to base my worldview on a book, I think LotR would be better. At least it's more internally consistent.

Also, Dawkins is a world renown scientist. He has published heaps of literature (atheist books aside) and even has a foundation in his name. I don't think he'll be forgotten quickly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 12, 2014, 06:48:35 PM
Interestingly enough, the author of LotR was an EXTREMELY devout Roman Catholic. JRR Tolkien rejected most of Vatican II, especially the changes to the Mass, particularly the use of the vernacular, insisting on responding to his Priest in Latin, even after the service was being done in English.

So, when I hear people talking about JRR Tolkien being more consistent than the Bible, I laugh, because they are unknowingly making fools of themselves.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 12, 2014, 07:02:55 PM
Interestingly enough, the author of LotR was an EXTREMELY devout Roman Catholic. JRR Tolkien rejected most of Vatican II, especially the changes to the Mass, particularly the use of the vernacular, insisting on responding to his Priest in Latin, even after the service was being done in English.

So, when I hear people talking about JRR Tolkien being more consistent than the Bible, I laugh, because they are unknowingly making fools of themselves.

What? I said his mythos was more internally consistent. There's entire websites devoted to pointing out the inconsistencies in the Bible, not so for the Tolkienverse. It was written by one man throughout his lifetime, and while he wasn't always consistent, it was more consistent than a text authored by dozens of people over hundreds of years.

Besides, it's just plain cooler. The Abrahamic God ranges from a crazy murderer to a benevolent retart. Eru is significantly less bizarre.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 12, 2014, 07:17:21 PM
Eri is practically deistic with only a couple of interventions since the beginning of Ëa.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Fortuna on October 12, 2014, 07:30:45 PM
Why do you believe in something that has no verifiable evidence?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 12, 2014, 07:33:14 PM
What an original question, Andrew.


Short answer, faith.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 12, 2014, 07:47:25 PM
The fact that you can't spell "retard" right speaks volumes. That is precisely the point. I won't speak for the so-called "New Testament". It is not a book I believe in, it is not a part of my Faith, and I consider it as irrelevant to my life as I do the Qur'an or the Bhagavad-Gita.

But, looking at the Jewish Bible alone of 24 Books (the Protestants divide these books differently and come up with 39, but the text is the same), the fact that they were written by so many people, and yet, are as consistent as they are is quite amazing. I estimate that the Hebrew Bible had approximately 25 authors in total. Looking at the text the way Protestants divide it, into 39 individual books (Jews count the Minor Prophets, of which there are 12, as one book, and they count 1 and 2 Kings, and 1 and 2 Samuel, and 1 and 2 Chronicles, and Ezra and Nehemiah, as each being one book), one can see that there is considerable unity in the text. Of course, your modern day so-called "liberal biblical scholars" would say otherwise. Not that that is particularly relevant, given that they can't even get the New Testament right regarding the so-called "Q" source. How could I possibly expect them to get the Divine Word right?

You telling me that there are websites devoted to the inconsistencies of the Bible is about as relevant as informing me that in reality, the Pope is indeed Catholic. I am aware of the websites, and have read quite a few of them. Invariably they are critical of Christianity, rather than Judaism, so they spend most of their time on the New Testament, or on a Christian interpretation of the Hebrew Bible.

Keep in mind, I have read the New Testament twice, which I expect is probably at least once or twice more than you have. I have  read the Hebrew Bible once in full, and the Torah twice, which again, is probably at least once or twice more than you have. And in Shul we go through the entire Torah once a year. So, that should count as well.

My inevitable conclusion to the Hebrew Scriptures is the following: If there is something in it that you do not understand, or that appears inconsistent, this is due to your lack of understanding. I would advise seeking out resources that are reliable, both pro and con, to bring to the matter, and exploring the true meaning of the text, and without taking the verses out of context. In fact, if at all you find verses that make no sense, don't just read those, but rather, read the entire chapter in which they appear, and perhaps the chapter before, and the chapter after. This will give you a background for what the author is trying to say.

But remember, and THIS IS KEY: if you fail to comprehend the text, it is not because of a weakness in the text. It is because your mind is failing to comprehend. There IS an answer. It is your duty to find it. That is the simple answer to that. It really isn't that hard.

Allow me to demonstrate by way of example. The Torah has often been used to display the idea that Moses did not write all of it, or for that matter, any of it. Instead, we are told that the Yahwist Source, the Elohist Source, the Priestly Source, and Deuteronomist Source wrote it (JEPD Sources). These sources later were redacted into one complete volume that we today know as the Pentateauch.

In a word, BULLSHIT. Moses wrote the Torah. Moses led the people out of Egypt. As far as numbers go, that is a debatable question. For an interesting take on that, read the following:  Source: http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec095.htm

And the following:  Source: http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec107.htm

Both are Christian sources, but contain much good information.

Anyway, why did Moses refer to God as "YHWH" at one point and as "Elohim" at another point? I don't know, and frankly, I don't care much. It was how he chose to do it, or how God told him to do it. Perhaps it had to do with the nature of God being first God, and later, friend. I am not sure. But both titles are acceptable to God.

And why would Deuteronomy have to be written separately from the other four books? There is absolutely no reason to assume this unless you have an agenda to push. And why would the Priests need to write their stuff separately? Moses WAS a Priest. He was uniquely qualified for writing that material as well as the rest of it. So, what is the major malfunction here?

The rest of the Hebrew Bible has no contradictions that can't be explained. It is your duty to see that they are, rather than questioning the text. So, grow up, put on your big-boy pants, and get to work!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 12, 2014, 08:13:51 PM
Eri is practically deistic with only a couple of interventions since the beginning of Ëa.

Yes, except he doesn't dare people to kill their kids before yelling "LOL JKS! Cut your doodle instead".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 12, 2014, 08:43:16 PM
"Name
Moses' name is given to him by Pharaoh's daughter: "He became her son, and she named him Moshe (Moses)." This name may be either Egyptian or Hebrew. If connected to an Egyptian root, via msy "to be born" and ms, "a son", it forms a wordplay: "he became her son, and she named him Son." There should, however, be a divine element to the name Moses (bearers of the Egyptian name are the "son of" a god, as in Thutmose, "son of Thut"), and his full name may therefore have included the name of one of the Egyptian gods. If the name is from a Hebrew root, then it is connected to the verb "to draw out": "I drew him (masha) out of the water," states Pharaoh's daughter, possibly looking forward to Moses at the well in Midian, or to his role in saving Israel at the Red Sea. Most scholars agree that the name is Egyptian, and that the Hebrew etymology is a later interpretation.[11]" {Wikipedia}.

Therefore I expect his name was Moshe, but derived from the Egyptian, since his foster mother was Egyptian. I seriously doubt she would have called him anything in Hebrew. The fact that the word is also a word in Hebrew (meaning something else, of course), is coincidental, and lucky for us, particularly insofar as that "something else" has something to do with narrative of his birth (being drawn out of the water).

This doesn't prove that he was actually named Moses or Moshe.

Also:
The fact that you can't spell "retard" right speaks volumes. That is precisely the point. I won't speak for the so-called "New Testament". It is not a book I believe in, it is not a part of my Faith, and I consider it as irrelevant to my life as I do the Qur'an or the Bhagavad-Gita.

But, looking at the Jewish Bible alone of 24 Books (the Protestants divide these books differently and come up with 39, but the text is the same), the fact that they were written by so many people, and yet, are as consistent as they are is quite amazing. I estimate that the Hebrew Bible had approximately 25 authors in total. Looking at the text the way Protestants divide it, into 39 individual books (Jews count the Minor Prophets, of which there are 12, as one book, and they count 1 and 2 Kings, and 1 and 2 Samuel, and 1 and 2 Chronicles, and Ezra and Nehemiah, as each being one book), one can see that there is considerable unity in the text. Of course, your modern day so-called "liberal biblical scholars" would say otherwise. Not that that is particularly relevant, given that they can't even get the New Testament right regarding the so-called "Q" source. How could I possibly expect them to get the Divine Word right?

You telling me that there are websites devoted to the inconsistencies of the Bible is about as relevant as informing me that in reality, the Pope is indeed Catholic. I am aware of the websites, and have read quite a few of them. Invariably they are critical of Christianity, rather than Judaism, so they spend most of their time on the New Testament, or on a Christian interpretation of the Hebrew Bible.

Keep in mind, I have read the New Testament twice, which I expect is probably at least once or twice more than you have. I have  read the Hebrew Bible once in full, and the Torah twice, which again, is probably at least once or twice more than you have. And in Shul we go through the entire Torah once a year. So, that should count as well.

My inevitable conclusion to the Hebrew Scriptures is the following: If there is something in it that you do not understand, or that appears inconsistent, this is due to your lack of understanding. I would advise seeking out resources that are reliable, both pro and con, to bring to the matter, and exploring the true meaning of the text, and without taking the verses out of context. In fact, if at all you find verses that make no sense, don't just read those, but rather, read the entire chapter in which they appear, and perhaps the chapter before, and the chapter after. This will give you a background for what the author is trying to say.

But remember, and THIS IS KEY: if you fail to comprehend the text, it is not because of a weakness in the text. It is because your mind is failing to comprehend. There IS an answer. It is your duty to find it. That is the simple answer to that. It really isn't that hard.

Allow me to demonstrate by way of example. The Torah has often been used to display the idea that Moses did not write all of it, or for that matter, any of it. Instead, we are told that the Yahwist Source, the Elowist Source, the Priestly Source, and Deuteronomist Source wrote it (JEPD Sources). These sources later were redacted into one complete volume that we today know as the Pentateauch.

In a word, BULLSHIT. Moses wrote the Torah. Moses led the people out of Egypt. As far as numbers go, that is a debatable question. For an interesting take on that, read the following:  Source: http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec095.htm (http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec095.htm)

And the following:  Source: http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec107.htm (http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec107.htm)

Both are Christian sources, but contain much good information.

Anyway, why did Moses refer to God as "YHWH" at one point and as "Elohim" at another point? I don't know, and frankly, I don't care much. It was how he chose to do it, or how God told him to do it. Perhaps it had to do with the nature of God being first God, and later, friend. I am not sure. But both titles are acceptable to God.

And why would Deuteronomy have to be written separately from the other four books? There is absolutely no reason to assume this unless you have an agenda to push. And why would the Priests need to write their stuff separately? Moses WAS a Priest. He was uniquely qualified for writing that material as well as the rest of it. So, what is the major malfunction here?

The rest of the Hebrew Bible has no contradictions that can't be explained. It is your duty to see that they are, rather than questioning the text. So, grow up, put on your big-boy pants, and get to work!
Please stop this.  We're far more intelligent than you seem to assume.  We know, all too well, that you're being delusional if you honestly believe that "My Faith isn't wrong, you're just stupid/ignorant" is a valid argument. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 12, 2014, 11:36:13 PM
Eri is practically deistic with only a couple of interventions since the beginning of Ëa.

Yes, except he doesn't dare people to kill their kids before yelling "LOL JKS! Cut your doodle instead".

Well he did annihilate the Great Armament of the Numenorians, so Eru was not exactly the nicest God ever.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 13, 2014, 12:28:52 AM
Eri is practically deistic with only a couple of interventions since the beginning of Ëa.

Yes, except he doesn't dare people to kill their kids before yelling "LOL JKS! Cut your doodle instead".

Well he did annihilate the Great Armament of the Numenorians, so Eru was not exactly the nicest God ever.

They sailed to Valinor in order to start a war, I think they got what they deserved.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2014, 03:20:04 AM
Eri is practically deistic with only a couple of interventions since the beginning of Ëa.

Yes, except he doesn't dare people to kill their kids before yelling "LOL JKS! Cut your doodle instead".

Well he did annihilate the Great Armament of the Numenorians, so Eru was not exactly the nicest God ever.

They sailed to Valinor in order to start a war, I think they got what they deserved.

Yaakov'd.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 03:25:32 AM
QUOTE: "Please stop this.  We're far more intelligent than you seem to assume.  We know, all too well, that you're being delusional if you honestly believe that "My Faith isn't wrong, you're just stupid/ignorant" is a valid argument."

Well, you are clearly ignorant as the nature of Judaism. You seem to perceive Judaism as a Religion like any other. It is not. Judaism, as I have said many times, is the Civilisation of the Jewish People. Its largest component may be Religion, but it is hardly only that. Our Civilisation is such that it combines aspects of Religion with Culture, Philosophy, and even Folkways. So you take something as sublime as the Bible and combine it with inane aspects of the Yiddishkeit such as Yiddish jokes, and you have the beginnings of Judaism as a Civilisation. Of course, there is much more. Everything about being a Jew can be classified as "practicing Judaism", from eating and drinking to praying. Your claim of knowing anything all too well, that I am delusional, is simply you being ignorant. It holds valid only in your mind.

Keep in mind that Jews saw God on Mt. Sinai. We had a National Theophany. Unlike every other religion on the planet, who depend on one person to have seen God (whom they then identify as a Prophet), we as a People saw God. You can read about this in the book of Exodus. I would recommend the book to you, even if you are a non-believer, since you might learn a little something.

But Jews as a People accepted the Commandments of Torah. We were the only nation to do so. God made us a People for Himself. As such, we are His Chosen, to be a Light unto the Nations. We have brought Monotheism to the world, and stand before  God as the mediator between God and a sinful race. We are the Priesthood, if you will, of the human race.

It is said that you can tell the moral qualities of a nation by how it treats its Jews. That is the bellwether. If a nation treats its Jews well, then you can generally expect that said nation will be a nation wherein law and order will abide, and where none shall be afraid. In a land where the Jews are brutalised, you will generally see that other people end up treated the same way.

For more reference to "Judaism as a Civilization", see the book of that title, written in America by Mordecai M. Kaplan, the seminal work on the subject. Originally written in 1934, the text has remained in print ever since, as it is the magnum opus of the founding father of Reconstructionist Judaism.

Fundamentally,the Atheist comes into the impossible situation that, no matter how hard he tries, he cannot prove the non-existence, or even probable non-existence, of God. The Theist, on the other hand, can prove the probable existence of God. This has been done often in theological discourse.

And when the Atheist attempts to criticise the Hebrew Scriptures, he runs into the problem that we use the same text all over the world, namely, the Masoretic Text. Although other texts are sometimes used for reference, ultimately, the Masoretic Text is taken as standard. Given that Christianity has no idea what standard they use (in fact, it varies from denomination to denomination), this makes Judaism much more pleasant to study.

The text of the Jewish Bible is remarkably consistent for having app. 25 authors over a period of about 2600 years from Moshe to Malachi. If you are having a hard time "getting it", that is an issue within you, not the Bible.

The fact is, you are grossly ignorant of Judaism as a Civilisation. I would say that for someone who denies believing  in God, you seem to spend an AWFUL amount of time here and in other threads attempting to refute belief in God. Sucks to be you that you aren't very successful. The only people who agree with you are people who already agreed with you at the get-go.

So where does that leave us? Oh, yes, the claim that I am delusional. How so? Given that app. 90% of the world believes in a Higher Power, I would suggest to you that someone who believes that the Universe and all that therein is came about by accident is TOTALLY delusional. If NOTHING exists, then how can SOMETHING come to exist, without an Uncaused Cause? Read up on your Plato, then come talk to me. And Read up on your Hebrew Scriptures. Then come talk to me.

By the way, could we eliminate the LotR from discussion? Take it to another thread!


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2014, 04:09:37 AM
In order:

1. Your immersion if your delusional belief in to your culture does not make it truer, only sadder.

2. Your only source for a national revelation is self referential and totally unreliable as such.

3. People can make current remarks about how cultures treat Jews and so on, but no serious thinker would imply morality is tied to treatment of Jews as there are moral cultures that would not have had contact with Jews until the last century or two. It is only a sassy intellectual exercise no different in intellectual  substance than this very thread.
 
4. Academics have shown by the always ethno-centric nature of religion and the spontaneous nature with which they can pop up (e.g. Cargo cults) that God is likely not to exist. As with all things in the scientific realm, there are no absolutes. We save those for you, the religious fanatic.

5. Atheists and agnostics spend a lot of time rebutting religious folk because of the dangerous and heinous thoughts that the religious utter, like casting aspersions on the millions of lawful and good Muslims because of the actions of some thousands.

6. 90% believe in some higher power ergo there must be God is utterly fallacious and goes by the name Argumentum ad Populem.

7. Again, I must stress that although creation need not be willful the laws of physics do not create phenomena by accident. Please learn the difference.

8. There have been many good arguments against the impossibility of an uncaused cause. Look them up your ignorance combined with acrimony and self-righteousness is unbecoming.

9. Eru's judgement upon the Great Armament was unjust because it was imposed upon a majority that were likely conscripted by the lords of Numenór. However, it was likely his last act in Eä and was obviously to preserve its unfolding cosmic harmony and as such could be viewed as righteous.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 13, 2014, 04:13:51 AM
Unlike every other religion on the planet, who depend on one person to have seen God (whom they then identify as a Prophet), we as a People saw God.

But Yaakov, you haven't seen god. That must mean you weren't the chosen people after all.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 04:47:47 AM
Unlike every other religion on the planet, who depend on one person to have seen God (whom they then identify as a Prophet), we as a People saw God.

But Yaakov, you haven't seen god. That must mean you weren't the chosen people after all.

I don't have to have. When my Forefathers saw God, they accepted the Torah for them and their descendants.

In order:

1. Your immersion if your delusional belief in to your culture does not make it truer, only sadder.

Your statement is utterly illogical. The Jew's very continued existence against all odds is proof of that. And your claim that my culture is delusional is not backed up by any evidence. The fact is undeniable that a sizable number of persons SAW GOD at Mt. Sinai. You can do with that what you wish.

2. Your only source for a national revelation is self referential and totally unreliable as such.

I am again inclined to disagree. Since the history of my People is both oral and written, it is very likely to be as true as Troy. Remember Heinrich Schliemann. You have a whole nation that saw the Deity. That is hard to gainsay. I don't think its self referential at all. In fact, we have learned from experience how to wrestle with God. We know our forefathers saw him in the deserts of Sinai, but we also know that in the Holocaust, he was silent. So, we have learned to struggle with him. But we have never denied what our forefathers have told us. An entire nation for 4500 years doesn't lie about things like that and get away with it.

3. People can make current remarks about how cultures treat Jews and so on, but no serious thinker would imply morality is tied to treatment of Jews as there are moral cultures that would not have had contact with Jews until the last century or two. It is only a sassy intellectual exercise no different in intellectual  substance than this very thread.

I am, of course, speaking of those cultures that have had frequent interaction with Jews. Actually there was a survey done of 190 countries, in which it was determined that 26% of adults worldwide harboured anti-Semitic feelings. The largest percentage was in the "Palestinian" Territories, where it was 93%. The lowest was in Laos, where it was at 0.02%. Any serious thinker would consider the morality of a culture that has harboured Jews in its territory for a long period of time to be partially determined by how it has treated said Jews.
 
4. Academics have shown by the always ethno-centric nature of religion and the spontaneous nature with which they can pop up (e.g. Cargo cults) that God is likely not to exist. As with all things in the scientific realm, there are no absolutes. We save those for you, the religious fanatic.

Since the fact that religion popping up has nothing whatsoever to do with whether God actually exists or not, the whole point is irrelevant. Some savage on Papua New Guinea after WWII building fake aeroplanes to entice "the gods" back is no commentary on whether a Supreme Being actually exists or not. Any "academic" who says it is probably received his credentials from a Cracker Jack box. As I said in an earlier post, the Atheist has no proof or even probable proof that God does not exist. At least the Theist has probable proof that he does.

5. Atheists and agnostics spend a lot of time rebutting religious folk because of the dangerous and heinous thoughts that the religious utter, like casting aspersions on the millions of lawful and good Muslims because of the actions of some thousands.

Of course, I'll keep in mind the dangerous thoughts of the atheists during the French Revolution, or the Russian, or the Chinese, or the Cambodian, or the Ethiopian, or... Lets see how many millions of people State sponsored Atheism has managed to kill. In Russia, some 40 million. In China, some 60 million. In Cambodia, 2 million. Shall I continue?

6. 90% believe in some higher power ergo there must be God is utterly fallacious and goes by the name Argumentum ad Populem.

I am not using the argument in that sense. I am merely saying that it is not up to us to prove to you that God exists. It is up to you to prove otherwise.

7. Again, I must stress that although creation need not be willful the laws of physics do not create phenomena by accident. Please learn the difference.

We've been over this. Please demonstrate. If you are not able to, then be silent.

8. There have been many good arguments against the impossibility of an uncaused cause. Look them up your ignorance combined with acrimony and self-righteousness is unbecoming.

Demonstrate or be silent. Plato, Aristotle, and MANY others would disagree, thank you.

9. Eru's judgement upon the Great Armament was unjust because it was imposed upon a majority that were likely conscripted by the lords of Numenór. However, it was likely his last act in Eä and was obviously to preserve its unfolding cosmic harmony and as such could be viewed as righteous.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 13, 2014, 04:55:54 AM
Atheism is Communism now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 05:07:29 AM
No, but Atheism was essentially the State Faith of Communism, lets be blunt. I am a member of the Communist Party USA, so I don't object to Communism per se, and neither does the Party. But lets be honest. The first people to go to their deaths were monks, nuns, priests, and Lams, Christian and Buddhist.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2014, 05:19:33 AM
In order:

1. Your immersion if your delusional belief in to your culture does not make it truer, only sadder.

Your statement is utterly illogical. The Jew's very continued existence against all odds is proof of that. And your claim that my culture is delusional is not backed up by any evidence. The fact is undeniable that a sizable number of persons SAW GOD at Mt. Sinai. You can do with that what you wish.

It is not a fact of any sort that a sizable number of people saw God. Between the self-referential nature of the bible, the penchant for the religious to interpret their texts in turn as literal or metaphorical, as they see fit and the complete lack of God's appearance to any other than the chosen people, it seems far more likely that God did not appear to the unwashed masses but rather the author of that particular portion of text was fulfiling a political agenda or some other corporeal need.

Quote
2. Your only source for a national revelation is self referential and totally unreliable as such.

I am again inclined to disagree. Since the history of my People is both oral and written, it is very likely to be as true as Troy.

You are not claiming the gods fought at Troy are you? Because that is what the mythological texts say. I treat the bible in the same light. Mythologized ancestry, nothing more.

Quote
Remember Heinrich Schliemann. You have a whole nation that saw the Deity. That is hard to gainsay.

Except that we don't have the testimony of a nation do we?  We have the words of the sole author of that section of the Torah. Quite easy to gainsay.

Quote
I don't think its self referential at all. In fact, we have learned from experience how to wrestle with God. We know our forefathers saw him in the deserts of Sinai, but we also know that in the Holocaust, he was silent. So, we have learned to struggle with him. But we have never denied what our forefathers have told us. An entire nation for 4500 years doesn't lie about things like that and get away with it.[/size]
Irrelevant.

Quote
3. People can make current remarks about how cultures treat Jews and so on, but no serious thinker would imply morality is tied to treatment of Jews as there are moral cultures that would not have had contact with Jews until the last century or two. It is only a sassy intellectual exercise no different in intellectual  substance than this very thread.

I am, of course, speaking of those cultures that have had frequent interaction with Jews. Actually there was a survey done of 190 countries, in which it was determined that 26% of adults worldwide harboured anti-Semitic feelings. The largest percentage was in the "Palestinian" Territories, where it was 93%. The lowest was in Laos, where it was at 0.02%. Any serious thinker would consider the morality of a culture that has harboured Jews in its territory for a long period of time to be partially determined by how it has treated said Jews.

I disagree and you have hardly made your case. Obviously the Palestinians would treat Jews badly, as anyone would treat their oppressive overlord. Your factoids don't happen to give any context either. I can determine exactly nothing about the subject from what you have told me.
 
Quote
4. Academics have shown by the always ethno-centric nature of religion and the spontaneous nature with which they can pop up (e.g. Cargo cults) that God is likely not to exist. As with all things in the scientific realm, there are no absolutes. We save those for you, the religious fanatic.

Since the fact that religion popping up has nothing whatsoever to do with whether God actually exists or not, the whole point is irrelevant. Some savage on Papua New Guinea after WWII building fake aeroplanes to entice "the gods" back is no commentary on whether a Supreme Being actually exists or not. Any "academic" who says it is probably received his credentials from a Cracker Jack box. As I said in an earlier post, the Atheist has no proof or even probable proof that God does not exist. At least the Theist has probable proof that he does.

I dare say the ease with which religions, professing privileged divine relations, pop up is a good indicator that religions hardly occur because of an actual divine relationship it rather because of a fact of human psychology and sociology.

Also, you can drop the notion that theists have "proof" based on arguments like Anselm's, et al.  These constitute nothing empirical, but rather a logical framework under which a God could occur. Nothing definitive, only something notional. There is no reason to suspect that metaphysical ideas must actually exist. 

Quote
5. Atheists and agnostics spend a lot of time rebutting religious folk because of the dangerous and heinous thoughts that the religious utter, like casting aspersions on the millions of lawful and good Muslims because of the actions of some thousands.

Of course, I'll keep in mind the dangerous thoughts of the atheists during the French Revolution, or the Russian, or the Chinese, or the Cambodian, or the Ethiopian, or... Lets see how many millions of people State sponsored Atheism has managed to kill. In Russia, some 40 million. In China, some 60 million. In Cambodia, 2 million. Shall I continue?

Please don't. This is like the religious version of Godwin's law. Nothing was done in the name of Atheism but rather under the guise of ideologies like communism, which you also espouse. Stop your emotional appeal.

Quote
6. 90% believe in some higher power ergo there must be God is utterly fallacious and goes by the name Argumentum ad Populem.

I am not using the argument in that sense. I am merely saying that it is not up to us to prove to you that God exists. It is up to you to prove otherwise.

I carry no burden of proof since my position is merely that your proof of God's existence is utterly unconvincing. All you have shown is an ancient text, written thousands of years ago by the power brokers of the time with no evidence of any supernatural occurrence since then that is anything more than anecdotal. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Quote
7. Again, I must stress that although creation need not be willful the laws of physics do not create phenomena by accident. Please learn the difference.

We've been over this. Please demonstrate. If you are not able to, then be silent.
Demonstrate what exactly?  That the laws of physics on the macro scale are deterministic?  This is hardly controversial. Please demonstrate that a creator is responsible for the universe's existence.

Quote
8. There have been many good arguments against the impossibility of an uncaused cause. Look them up your ignorance combined with acrimony and self-righteousness is unbecoming.

Demonstrate or be silent. Plato, Aristotle, and MANY others would disagree, thank you.
Argument from authority. You suck. Watch this rebuttal to the Kalam Cosmologocal Argument that tackles the exact territory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEw8VzzXcjE

Quote
9. Eru's judgement upon the Great Armament was unjust because it was imposed upon a majority that were likely conscripted by the lords of Numenór. However, it was likely his last act in Eä and was obviously to preserve its unfolding cosmic harmony and as such could be viewed as righteous.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 05:44:47 AM
In order:

1. Your immersion if your delusional belief in to your culture does not make it truer, only sadder.

Your statement is utterly illogical. The Jew's very continued existence against all odds is proof of that. And your claim that my culture is delusional is not backed up by any evidence. The fact is undeniable that a sizable number of persons SAW GOD at Mt. Sinai. You can do with that what you wish.

It is not a fact of any sort that a sizable number of people saw God. Between the self-referential nature of the bible, the penchant for the religious to interpret their texts in turn as literal or metaphorical, as they see fit and the complete lack of God's appearance to any other than the chosen people, it seems far more likely that God did not appear to the unwashed masses but rather the author of that particular portion of text was fulfiling a political agenda or some other corporeal need.

You can choose to reject the idea that an entire nation saw God. Your great great great great great grandchildren can also reject the idea that an entire nation fought the American Revolution.

Quote
2. Your only source for a national revelation is self referential and totally unreliable as such.

I am again inclined to disagree. Since the history of my People is both oral and written, it is very likely to be as true as Troy.

You are not claiming the gods fought at Troy are you? Because that is what the mythological texts say. I treat the bible in the same light. Mythologized ancestry, nothing more.

I'm not claiming anything about deities. But it wouldn't surprise me if angels weren't on hand that the Greeks thought were gods. And the fact that you are willing to disregard the evidence of 2 million persons (refer to my post above on that) makes you out to be acting the fool, nothing more.

Quote
Remember Heinrich Schliemann. You have a whole nation that saw the Deity. That is hard to gainsay.

Except that we don't have the testimony of a nation do we?  We have the words of the sole author of that section of the Torah. Quite easy to gainsay.

We have the words of Moses, and the testimony of every Jew who learned it at his father's knee for the 4500 years since it happened. Oral history has been proven right before. Again, I would direct you to Troy.

Quote
I don't think its self referential at all. In fact, we have learned from experience how to wrestle with God. We know our forefathers saw him in the deserts of Sinai, but we also know that in the Holocaust, he was silent. So, we have learned to struggle with him. But we have never denied what our forefathers have told us. An entire nation for 4500 years doesn't lie about things like that and get away with it.[/size]
Irrelevant.

Quote
3. People can make current remarks about how cultures treat Jews and so on, but no serious thinker would imply morality is tied to treatment of Jews as there are moral cultures that would not have had contact with Jews until the last century or two. It is only a sassy intellectual exercise no different in intellectual  substance than this very thread.

I am, of course, speaking of those cultures that have had frequent interaction with Jews. Actually there was a survey done of 190 countries, in which it was determined that 26% of adults worldwide harboured anti-Semitic feelings. The largest percentage was in the "Palestinian" Territories, where it was 93%. The lowest was in Laos, where it was at 0.02%. Any serious thinker would consider the morality of a culture that has harboured Jews in its territory for a long period of time to be partially determined by how it has treated said Jews.

I disagree and you have hardly made your case. Obviously the Palestinians would treat Jews badly, as anyone would treat their oppressive overlord. Your factoids don't happen to give any context either. I can determine exactly nothing about the subject from what you have told me.

Since the "Palestinians" are the ones who started the conflict, they are the ones who deserve the treatment, not us. Frankly, they deserve to be eliminated, through deportation. Trust me, Israel is by far a much kinder "overlord" than they deserve.
 
Quote
4. Academics have shown by the always ethno-centric nature of religion and the spontaneous nature with which they can pop up (e.g. Cargo cults) that God is likely not to exist. As with all things in the scientific realm, there are no absolutes. We save those for you, the religious fanatic.

Since the fact that religion popping up has nothing whatsoever to do with whether God actually exists or not, the whole point is irrelevant. Some savage on Papua New Guinea after WWII building fake aeroplanes to entice "the gods" back is no commentary on whether a Supreme Being actually exists or not. Any "academic" who says it is probably received his credentials from a Cracker Jack box. As I said in an earlier post, the Atheist has no proof or even probable proof that God does not exist. At least the Theist has probable proof that he does.

I dare say the ease with which religions, professing privileged divine relations, pop up is a good indicator that religions hardly occur because of an actual divine relationship it rather because of a fact of human psychology and sociology.

Also, you can drop the notion that theists have "proof" based on arguments like Anselm's, et al.  These constitute nothing empirical, but rather a logical framework under which a God could occur. Nothing definitive, only something notional. There is no reason to suspect that metaphysical ideas must actually exist. 

I'm only suggesting that we have more probable proof, not deductive proof. So your point is entirely irrelevant.

Quote
5. Atheists and agnostics spend a lot of time rebutting religious folk because of the dangerous and heinous thoughts that the religious utter, like casting aspersions on the millions of lawful and good Muslims because of the actions of some thousands.

Of course, I'll keep in mind the dangerous thoughts of the atheists during the French Revolution, or the Russian, or the Chinese, or the Cambodian, or the Ethiopian, or... Lets see how many millions of people State sponsored Atheism has managed to kill. In Russia, some 40 million. In China, some 60 million. In Cambodia, 2 million. Shall I continue?

Please don't. This is like the religious version of Godwin's law. Nothing was done in the name of Atheism but rather under the guise of ideologies like communism, which you also espouse. Stop your emotional appeal.

Hardly Godwin's. Simply an acknowledgement that all the governments that have been brutally atheist have been murderous thugs, and the first victims have always been the monks, priests, nuns, and Rabbis.

Quote
6. 90% believe in some higher power ergo there must be God is utterly fallacious and goes by the name Argumentum ad Populem.

I am not using the argument in that sense. I am merely saying that it is not up to us to prove to you that God exists. It is up to you to prove otherwise.

I carry no burden of proof since my position is merely that your proof of God's existence is utterly unconvincing. All you have shown is an ancient text, written thousands of years ago by the power brokers of the time with no evidence of any supernatural occurrence since then that is anything more than anecdotal. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

It is far more extraordinary to claim that the universe just exists randomly. So show me your evidence.

Quote
7. Again, I must stress that although creation need not be willful the laws of physics do not create phenomena by accident. Please learn the difference.

We've been over this. Please demonstrate. If you are not able to, then be silent.
Demonstrate what exactly?  That the laws of physics on the macro scale are deterministic?  This is hardly controversial. Please demonstrate that a creator is responsible for the universe's existence.

I have no need to demonstrate that a Creator is responsible. That's already been done by men smarter than me. Pick up a book or two. You have to prove to me that without a Creator, things can happen by accident, or even worse, by design (which is,without doubt, one of the dumbest things I have ever heard). A thing cannot occur on purpose without an inelligence behind it.

Quote
8. There have been many good arguments against the impossibility of an uncaused cause. Look them up your ignorance combined with acrimony and self-righteousness is unbecoming.

Demonstrate or be silent. Plato, Aristotle, and MANY others would disagree, thank you.
Argument from authority. You suck. Watch this rebuttal to the Kalam Cosmologocal Argument that tackles the exact territory.

Its not an Argument from Authority when the Authority is accurate.That's like saying it will rain because the weather man said so and being accused of arguing from authority.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEw8VzzXcjE

Quote
9. Eru's judgement upon the Great Armament was unjust because it was imposed upon a majority that were likely conscripted by the lords of Numenór. However, it was likely his last act in Eä and was obviously to preserve its unfolding cosmic harmony and as such could be viewed as righteous.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 13, 2014, 06:05:41 AM
Jesus, learn to quote properly already.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 06:08:50 AM
Jesus, learn to quote properly already.

I do quote properly. I just want it to clear who is me and who is he.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 13, 2014, 07:43:13 AM
No, but Atheism was essentially the State Faith of Communism, lets be blunt. I am a member of the Communist Party USA, so I don't object to Communism per se, and neither does the Party. But lets be honest. The first people to go to their deaths were monks, nuns, priests, and Lams, Christian and Buddhist.

Communism is secular, just like the US.

9. Eru's judgement upon the Great Armament was unjust because it was imposed upon a majority that were likely conscripted by the lords of Numenór. However, it was likely his last act in Eä and was obviously to preserve its unfolding cosmic harmony and as such could be viewed as righteous.

Actually, Tolkien essentially said that Eru pushed Golum into Mt. Doom. He also brought Gandalf back, since the Valar don't have that power. I also disagree with the innocence of the Numenoreans. I think at that stage, their society at large despised Eru and those who dwelt in the undying lands. There were a few Numenoreans who fled East, and did not stay on Numenor nor participate in the fleet that sailed West. They were the ones who founded Gondor, and stayed faithful to the command of not stepping foot in Valinor.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 12:24:15 PM
I appear to have miswritten myself. "I am a member of the Communist Party USA, so I don't object to atheism as such in an individual as long as it's polite. But, lets be honest. The first people to go to their deaths in Communist states along the lines of the USSR were monks, nuns, priests, Rabbis, and Lamas, Christian and Buddhist." I believe that Communism at its best is not at all antagonistic to religion, or at least, doesn't have to be. But lets face it. Soviet style (and Chinese) style Communism were both State Atheist, as North Korean style  Communism is today. They are all three historically incredibly vicious toward anything that even hints of belief in God.

All three of the forms of Communism mentioned above are FAR more vicious toward believers than believers ever have been toward atheism or toward each other. Of course, every American, or at least most, stupidly makes the statement, "religion is the cause of all the wars." Not only is such a statement untrue, it is simply stupid in the extreme. In reality, most wars are a conflict of nationalism, or over natural resources.

Taking the Middle East for example, Jews and Muslims are not fighting each other for religious reasons. They are fighting each other because Arabs claim the land on which the Jews have a patrimony, and vice versa. Religion is used to justify said patrimony. It is a secondary reason, not a primary one. Even if both groups were the SAME religion, they would probably STILL not be fond of each other. The fact that ISIS makes people convert to Islam, and then kills them anyway, is an example of this.

And the Middle East is one part of the world where it can safely be said that religion DOES actually play a pretty large role in things. Outside of there, it plays almost NO role in shaping conflicts. Even in the Indo-Pak situation, it is mostly natural resources they are fighting over at this point, although religion is used as an excuse.

Religion has been used A LOT as an excuse, but that is exactly what it is. There is ALWAYS something else that impels the conflicts. Religion is NEVER the reason, although it may be the STATED reason.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2014, 01:04:41 PM
Yaakov-
1. To say the revelation is as historical as the Anerican Revolution is terrifyingly inaccurate. Please talk to a PhD student about your idea and witness the blank and slightly troubled look you get.

2.Millions of people and only one surviving historical source... Not even one other written account amongst your gloriously literate society of antiquity. That strikes me as exactly what I would expect of the revelation were a myth.

3. I am not referring to whether or not the Oalestinians are getting what's coming to them merely that it is not at all surprising that they do have enmity with the Jews.

4. What is your standard of probability? Personal credulity?

5.Correlation does not equal causation.

6. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss.

7. I never said the universe exists and have pointed out that the laws of physics are deterministic. What's the problem here?

8. I have provided a rebuttal to Plato and Aristotle and you are asserting they are right merely because of who they are. Sounds like an argument from authority.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 04:19:14 PM
Yaakov-
1. To say the revelation is as historical as the American Revolution is terrifyingly inaccurate. Please talk to a PhD student about your idea and witness the blank and slightly troubled look you get.

The only reason it is thought of as less accurate is because it happened a LONG time ago, vs 238 years ago. Give it a few thousand years, and see how mythologised the American Revolution becomes. Hell, just watch Mel Gibson's "The Patriot", and see how mythologised it already is. For more on the Exodus from Egypt, read the Pocket Bible Handbook, by Henry H. Halley, 18th Edition, 2nd Printing, copyright 1950, pp. 106-127. Although Christian, and with considerable faults, it is still a pretty good reference. The book is still in print, but the current 25th Edition, though it does have its strengths, is generally not as good.However, for your reference, Halley's Bible Handbook, with the New International Version, copyright 2000, 2007 by Halley's Bible Handbook, Inc. It is done through Zondervan. I have it on my Nook, so no pagination, but the Chapter is "The Exodus from Egypt: Exodus-Deuteronomy".

2.Millions of people and only one surviving historical source... Not even one other written account amongst your gloriously literate society of antiquity. That strikes me as exactly what I would expect of the revelation were a myth.

And you are forgetting the non-canonical sources such as the Book of Jubilees, and other sources.

3. I am not referring to whether or not the Palestinians are getting what's coming to them merely that it is not at all surprising that they do have enmity with the Jews.

Understood.

4. What is your standard of probability? Personal credulity?

No response necessary.

5.Correlation does not equal causation.

Except insofar as that was the stated aim of the governments in question.

6. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss.

Summarise, please.l

7. I never said the universe exists and have pointed out that the laws of physics are deterministic. What's the problem here?

The universe doesn't exist?

8. I have provided a rebuttal to Plato and Aristotle and you are asserting they are right merely because of who they are. Sounds like an argument from authority.

I don't have 2 hours to listen to an argument. Summarise, please.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 13, 2014, 06:22:30 PM
Yaakov: You liar.  You big, fat, ugly, liar. I can't believe you can come in here and spout such horrible lies as fact.

You claim it's fact that Jews saw God at Mt. Sinai yet your own book says this is a lie. 

The Jews saw only smoke, not God.  They HEARD a voice, but saw nothing. 

For those interested let me paint you a picture:

Moses hears God tell him to go up a mountain.  He "talks" to God who tells him to tell everyone to listen to him because he did all the stuff for them.  So Moses comes back and tells his people who then agree.  So Moses has to go BACK up the mountain to tell God what they said.  At which point God tells them to get nice and clean and holy in 2 days and on the third, he'll talk to them.  Oh and that if anyone climbs the mountain or even touches it, they'll die. 

So on the third day, the mountain is covered in smoke with a big fire at the top (fire causes smoke FYI) and a loud voice proclaims the commandments. So Moses goes BACK up the mountain after this and spends 40 days and 40 nights to "receive" the stone tablets, the written Torah AND the Oral Torah.  So one guy was on a mountain, alone, and after 40 days, he returns with two written works and one oral one.  Why would it take God 40 days to give him this stuff?  It would take 10 seconds, max.  It's FAR more likely that it was Moses who did it.  Especially since he came back, broke the stone tablets, and had to go back for 40 days and nights to get new ones.

If this were any other religion, you'd call Moses a con man.  But because you were brainwashed into believing this, you can't accept any evidence contrary.

Moses was the original Wizard of Oz.  So put on your big boy pants and accept the truth.  Stop being a child who accepts dragons because your friends say someone saw one.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2014, 06:50:03 PM
Yaakov-
1. To say the revelation is as historical as the American Revolution is terrifyingly inaccurate. Please talk to a PhD student about your idea and witness the blank and slightly troubled look you get.

The only reason it is thought of as less accurate is because it happened a LONG time ago, vs 238 years ago. Give it a few thousand years, and see how mythologised the American Revolution becomes. Hell, just watch Mel Gibson's "The Patriot", and see how mythologised it already is. For more on the Exodus from Egypt, read the Pocket Bible Handbook, by Henry H. Halley, 18th Edition, 2nd Printing, copyright 1950, pp. 106-127. Although Christian, and with considerable faults, it is still a pretty good reference. The book is still in print, but the current 25th Edition, though it does have its strengths, is generally not as good.However, for your reference, Halley's Bible Handbook, with the New International Version, copyright 2000, 2007 by Halley's Bible Handbook, Inc. It is done through Zondervan. I have it on my Nook, so no pagination, but the Chapter is "The Exodus from Egypt: Exodus-Deuteronomy".

So as we get further from the event it becomes more mythologized. This does not help your argument really.

Quote
2.Millions of people and only one surviving historical source... Not even one other written account amongst your gloriously literate society of antiquity. That strikes me as exactly what I would expect of the revelation were a myth.

And you are forgetting the non-canonical sources such as the Book of Jubilees, and other sources.

How many sources refer to the revelation?

Quote
3. I am not referring to whether or not the Palestinians are getting what's coming to them merely that it is not at all surprising that they do have enmity with the Jews.

Understood.

4. What is your standard of probability? Personal credulity?

No response necessary.

So you concede and we need not take metaphysical arguments as evidence. Glad we agree.

Quote
5.Correlation does not equal causation.

Except insofar as that was the stated aim of the governments in question.

Citation required.

Quote
6. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss.

Summarise, please.l

That it is plausible that the universe can arise from the quantum fluctuations of empty space.

Quote
7. I never said the universe exists and have pointed out that the laws of physics are deterministic. What's the problem here?

The universe doesn't exist?

Oops!  Not sure what I meant by the first part however I have pointed out that laws of physics are deterministic and as such are non-random.

Quote
8. I have provided a rebuttal to Plato and Aristotle and you are asserting they are right merely because of who they are. Sounds like an argument from authority.

I don't have 2 hours to listen to an argument. Summarise, please.

That not everything that begins to exist must have a cause. We are not capable of making this statement with any sort of certainty.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 10:15:44 PM
Yaakov: You liar.  You big, fat, ugly, liar. I can't believe you can come in here and spout such horrible lies as fact.

You claim it's fact that Jews saw God at Mt. Sinai yet your own book says this is a lie. 

The Jews saw only smoke, not God.  They HEARD a voice, but saw nothing. 

For those interested let me paint you a picture:

Moses hears God tell him to go up a mountain.  He "talks" to God who tells him to tell everyone to listen to him because he did all the stuff for them.  So Moses comes back and tells his people who then agree.  So Moses has to go BACK up the mountain to tell God what they said.  At which point God tells them to get nice and clean and holy in 2 days and on the third, he'll talk to them.  Oh and that if anyone climbs the mountain or even touches it, they'll die. 

So on the third day, the mountain is covered in smoke with a big fire at the top (fire causes smoke FYI) and a loud voice proclaims the commandments. So Moses goes BACK up the mountain after this and spends 40 days and 40 nights to "receive" the stone tablets, the written Torah AND the Oral Torah.  So one guy was on a mountain, alone, and after 40 days, he returns with two written works and one oral one.  Why would it take God 40 days to give him this stuff?  It would take 10 seconds, max.  It's FAR more likely that it was Moses who did it.  Especially since he came back, broke the stone tablets, and had to go back for 40 days and nights to get new ones.

It would take 40 days at least to write the Written Torah by hand. The Oral Torah would take at LEAST that long to memorise. Then he would have to do it again!

If this were any other religion, you'd call Moses a con man.  But because you were brainwashed into believing this, you can't accept any evidence contrary.

Moses was the original Wizard of Oz.  So put on your big boy pants and accept the truth.  Stop being a child who accepts dragons because your friends say someone saw one.

I would say it's time for you to put on your big-boy pants and admit that 2 million people at one time don't lie and get away with it. Grow up.

"Chapter 19
19:1 In the third month after the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

19:2 And when they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the wilderness of Sinai, they encamped in the wilderness; and there Israel encamped before the mount.

19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying: 'Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:

19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself.

19:5 Now therefore, if ye will hearken unto My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be Mine own treasure from among all peoples; for all the earth is Mine;

19:6 and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.'

19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord commanded him.

19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.

19:10 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go unto the people, and sanctify them to-day and to-morrow, and let them wash their garments,

19:11 and be ready against the third day; for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Notice: He will come down in the sight of all the people. All 2 million of them.

19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying: Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it; whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death;

19:13 no hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live; when the ram's horn soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.'

19:14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their garments.

19:15 And he said unto the people: 'Be ready against the third day; come not near a woman.' 16 And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a horn exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.

Notice: Thunder and lightning and a thick cloud on the mount. This implies nowhere else.

19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

19:18 Now mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Notice: the Lord descended in fire on the mountain. What do you want him to do, show up as Derek Jeter?

19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice.

Moses speaks, and then God blantantly speaks. Damn!

19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

19:21 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish.

19:22 And let the priests also, that come near to the Lord, sanctify themselves, lest the Lord break forth upon them.'

19:23 And Moses said unto the Lord: 'The people cannot come up to mount Sinai; for thou didst charge us, saying: Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it.'

19:24 And the Lord said unto him: 'Go, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee; but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the Lord, lest He break forth upon them.'

19:25 So Moses went down unto the people, and told them.

Chapter 20
20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

20:2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

20:5 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

20:6 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;

20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the Lord thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;

20:11 for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

20:13 Thou shalt not murder.

20:13 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

20:13 Thou shalt not steal.

20:13 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

20:14 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. 15 And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off.

20:16 And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'

20:17 And Moses said unto the people: 'Fear not; for God is come to prove you, and that His fear may be before you, that ye sin not.'

20:18 And the people stood afar off; but Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

One assumes that there was no thick darkness elsewhere.

19 And the Lord said unto Moses: Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel: Ye yourselves have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

20:20 Ye shall not make with Me--gods of silver, or gods of gold, ye shall not make unto you.

20:21 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.

20:22 And if thou make Me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones; for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast profaned it.

20:23 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto Mine altar, that thy nakedness be not uncovered thereon."

Source: Tanach, Jewish Publication Society. http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/exodus-jps.html

I am astounded at your line of argumentation being so poor. I thought I was actually going to be challenged seriously. Wow. That was seriously weak, friend. When I can give you a kicking that badly in 10 minutes, I am disappointed, really. Better luck next time. If at first you don't succeed...

Of course, you will say that this proves nothing. But, you, like so many, fail to keep the rest of the Torah in context, namely, remembering the people the Lord has stricken down in His wrath. The Wizard of Oz didn't do that, and neither did Moses.  God did that. Try again...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 10:32:38 PM
Yaakov-
1. To say the revelation is as historical as the American Revolution is terrifyingly inaccurate. Please talk to a PhD student about your idea and witness the blank and slightly troubled look you get.

The only reason it is thought of as less accurate is because it happened a LONG time ago, vs 238 years ago. Give it a few thousand years, and see how mythologised the American Revolution becomes. Hell, just watch Mel Gibson's "The Patriot", and see how mythologised it already is. For more on the Exodus from Egypt, read the Pocket Bible Handbook, by Henry H. Halley, 18th Edition, 2nd Printing, copyright 1950, pp. 106-127. Although Christian, and with considerable faults, it is still a pretty good reference. The book is still in print, but the current 25th Edition, though it does have its strengths, is generally not as good.However, for your reference, Halley's Bible Handbook, with the New International Version, copyright 2000, 2007 by Halley's Bible Handbook, Inc. It is done through Zondervan. I have it on my Nook, so no pagination, but the Chapter is "The Exodus from Egypt: Exodus-Deuteronomy".

So as we get further from the event it becomes more mythologized. This does not help your argument really.

It helps insofar as it recognises that mythologising occurs with anything. The Exodus is as believable as the American Revolution will one day be.

Quote
2.Millions of people and only one surviving historical source... Not even one other written account amongst your gloriously literate society of antiquity. That strikes me as exactly what I would expect of the revelation were a myth.

And you are forgetting the non-canonical sources such as the Book of Jubilees, and other sources.

How many sources refer to the revelation?

I would have to check. I know the Book of Jubilees does. I know there are others. As far as numbers, I am not certain.

Quote
3. I am not referring to whether or not the Palestinians are getting what's coming to them merely that it is not at all surprising that they do have enmity with the Jews.

Understood.

4. What is your standard of probability? Personal credulity?

No response necessary.

So you concede and we need not take metaphysical arguments as evidence. Glad we agree.

I do not concede. I simply consider that you do not have an argument worth a response.

Quote
5.Correlation does not equal causation.

Except insofar as that was the stated aim of the governments in question.

Citation required.

The Dalai Lama. Chairman Mao repeatedly told him that religion was poison. The Cultural Revolution in which all religion was intended to be wiped out across the country. In Albania, which was officially declared an Atheist country in 1967, wherein EVERY single house of worship was closed, and where owning a Bible or Qur'an was punishable by death or long prison sentences. It was the only country in the world that actually went so far as to declare itself officially Atheist, and actually outlawed religion outright, although ALL Soviet, Chinese, and Korean style Communist countries severely curtailed the rights of believers. In the USSR, it was illegal to teach one's faith to anyone under the age of 18, even one's own children.

Quote
6. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss.

Summarise, please.l

That it is plausible that the universe can arise from the quantum fluctuations of empty space.

It might arise, but what kind of order would it have? Sounds like it would be pretty random to me.

Quote
7. I never said the universe exists and have pointed out that the laws of physics are deterministic. What's the problem here?

The universe doesn't exist?

Oops!  Not sure what I meant by the first part however I have pointed out that laws of physics are deterministic and as such are non-random.

Citation needed please.

Quote
8. I have provided a rebuttal to Plato and Aristotle and you are asserting they are right merely because of who they are. Sounds like an argument from authority.

I don't have 2 hours to listen to an argument. Summarise, please.

That not everything that begins to exist must have a cause. We are not capable of making this statement with any sort of certainty.

Forgive me, but saying that something exists without cause is utterly illogical in the extreme. That is absurd. I'll just leave that one there.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 13, 2014, 10:33:57 PM
This is starting to look like a sandokhan thread.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 13, 2014, 10:59:46 PM
God spoke in old english? interesting
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 11:03:51 PM
Ha. Very funny. That would be the 1917 JPS Translation, rather than the 1985 Translation, updated 1999. I pulled it off the Internet, as the Source indicates.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2014, 11:59:10 PM
So the American Revolution one day will sound like the Exodus. So your point is that one day in the future a completely mundane event will be characterized as supernatural, even though it wasn't. Got it. Can we move on?

Asking a question about your standard of what is probable is not even an argument. You know that right?

By your comments about atheist countries it appears you do not understand what a citation is. Please try again.

In regards to your comment bout a universe arising from nothing why are you using your opinion about what it seems like the universe should be?  Are you an expert in cosmology?  Here is a source that discusses in part how QM and other natural laws are deterministic.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-physics-free-will/

So please drop this nonsense that the universe is random. It only appears that way due to a lack of information. Again: universe=non-random=creation need not be an accident in the absence of a prime-mover.

Of course my summation of a PhD philosopher's argument