Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1200 on: October 27, 2014, 03:47:55 AM »
GRINNING. Not at all. I simply state a fact. You make an Appeal to Authority, which is a logical fallacy in and of itself, and then you choose the wrong authority?! Not too bright. Tolkien would have laughed at you if you had tried to quote him to support your position. And he might have punched you in the nose. Or as least sued your sorry ass self.

Because you seem to have missed it: Tolkien's personal beliefs don't have anything to do with his Legendarium being significantly better than the Bible.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1201 on: October 27, 2014, 03:55:28 AM »
Of course, that's a matter of personal opinion, and about 1 billion 15 million persons alive TODAY seem to disagree with you, as did he. And that doesn't include all the people who lived and died BEFORE the ones currently living. You are more and more of schmuck every time you you open your yap. But continue, please. I enjoy being amused. I don't know of anyone who is willing to die for believing in Tolkien's admittedly interesting work. I know a lot of people who would be willing to die for their Faith, Jewish or Christian.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 03:56:59 AM by Yonah ben Amittai »

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1202 on: October 27, 2014, 04:46:28 AM »
QUOTE OF RAMA SET: "I agree it is incomprehensible.  How do you reconcile that God did make such a command and that you yourself believes that the command is still in effect, and that it is only the difficulty in showing Palestinians to be Amalekites that saves them from extermination?  Indeed you showed that you were willing to order extermination of them for merely claiming to be natives to Israel.  Are you from the Bronze Age?"

Because of the universal nature of God, God is also the God of the "Palestinians". Therefore, although the commandment has not been abolished, I am inclined to believe personally that God would be happier with a controlled deportation rather than extermination. And further, I think the reason there ARE no more Amalekites is simply because God does not WANT his people exterminating ANYONE. As you have all correctly pointed out, unlike in the Bronze Age, we understand that there are better ways to deal with problems then wholesale elimination of a people, however distasteful a people they may be.

Except I am not talking about what we understand, I am talking about God's commandment.  It was pretty unequivoical:

Quote from: Samuel 15:2-10
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

So yes, while I agree that there are obviously better ways to deal with Palestinians, the point is that your God is so barbaric and hateful that he, as the source of all morality, sentences all Amalek babies to be slain only because of an accident of birth.  It is undeniable that your God is utterly immoral and evil.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1203 on: October 27, 2014, 04:49:01 AM »
God commanded you slay dat ass.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1204 on: October 27, 2014, 04:56:48 AM »
QUOTE OF RAMA SET: "I agree it is incomprehensible.  How do you reconcile that God did make such a command and that you yourself believes that the command is still in effect, and that it is only the difficulty in showing Palestinians to be Amalekites that saves them from extermination?  Indeed you showed that you were willing to order extermination of them for merely claiming to be natives to Israel.  Are you from the Bronze Age?"

Because of the universal nature of God, God is also the God of the "Palestinians". Therefore, although the commandment has not been abolished, I am inclined to believe personally that God would be happier with a controlled deportation rather than extermination. And further, I think the reason there ARE no more Amalekites is simply because God does not WANT his people exterminating ANYONE. As you have all correctly pointed out, unlike in the Bronze Age, we understand that there are better ways to deal with problems then wholesale elimination of a people, however distasteful a people they may be.

Except I am not talking about what we understand, I am talking about God's commandment.  It was pretty unequivoical:

Quote from: Samuel 15:2-10
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

So yes, while I agree that there are obviously better ways to deal with Palestinians, the point is that your God is so barbaric and hateful that he, as the source of all morality, sentences all Amalek babies to be slain only because of an accident of birth.  It is undeniable that your God is utterly immoral and evil.

However, I would contrast that with two things. 1, the fact that Amalekites no longer exist. This is an act of the same God that commanded their very destruction. He found a far better way to do it than genocide. Rather, he bred them out of existence. 2, I think he did this because of the text that you read later in the Hebrew Scriptures. Again I refer you to Isaiah and the Minor Prophets. Nation shall not rise up against nation, and neither shall mankind again know war. And they shall beat their swords in the plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks. And later in the the text (Malachi, I think, unless its Micah, I am running off memory here), Justice, justice ye shall pursue!

The God of the Hebrew Bible was able to ultimately save the Amalekites through peacefully breeding them out of existence to the point where fighting them would be impossible. Sounds pretty smart to me. Therefore, he at the same time doesn't break his promise to the Israelites. His commandments are eternal, even that one, but in that case, it can't be exercised, so the brutality is avoided as well. Two birds with one stone, eh?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 04:58:38 AM by Yonah ben Amittai »

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Offline beardo

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1205 on: October 27, 2014, 05:45:42 AM »
Surely God could have given the others the abililty to understand as well, and not just Moses. I mean, he's God. R-right??
The Mastery.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1206 on: October 27, 2014, 05:50:26 AM »
QUOTE OF RAMA SET: "I agree it is incomprehensible.  How do you reconcile that God did make such a command and that you yourself believes that the command is still in effect, and that it is only the difficulty in showing Palestinians to be Amalekites that saves them from extermination?  Indeed you showed that you were willing to order extermination of them for merely claiming to be natives to Israel.  Are you from the Bronze Age?"

Because of the universal nature of God, God is also the God of the "Palestinians". Therefore, although the commandment has not been abolished, I am inclined to believe personally that God would be happier with a controlled deportation rather than extermination. And further, I think the reason there ARE no more Amalekites is simply because God does not WANT his people exterminating ANYONE. As you have all correctly pointed out, unlike in the Bronze Age, we understand that there are better ways to deal with problems then wholesale elimination of a people, however distasteful a people they may be.

Except I am not talking about what we understand, I am talking about God's commandment.  It was pretty unequivoical:

Quote from: Samuel 15:2-10
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

So yes, while I agree that there are obviously better ways to deal with Palestinians, the point is that your God is so barbaric and hateful that he, as the source of all morality, sentences all Amalek babies to be slain only because of an accident of birth.  It is undeniable that your God is utterly immoral and evil.

However, I would contrast that with two things. 1, the fact that Amalekites no longer exist. This is an act of the same God that commanded their very destruction. He found a far better way to do it than genocide. Rather, he bred them out of existence. 2, I think he did this because of the text that you read later in the Hebrew Scriptures. Again I refer you to Isaiah and the Minor Prophets. Nation shall not rise up against nation, and neither shall mankind again know war. And they shall beat their swords in the plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks. And later in the the text (Malachi, I think, unless its Micah, I am running off memory here), Justice, justice ye shall pursue!

The God of the Hebrew Bible was able to ultimately save the Amalekites through peacefully breeding them out of existence to the point where fighting them would be impossible. Sounds pretty smart to me. Therefore, he at the same time doesn't break his promise to the Israelites. His commandments are eternal, even that one, but in that case, it can't be exercised, so the brutality is avoided as well. Two birds with one stone, eh?

So he replaced Genocide with Eugenics.  Great....

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1207 on: October 27, 2014, 07:19:18 AM »
Of course, that's a matter of personal opinion, and about 1 billion 15 million persons alive TODAY seem to disagree with you, as did he. And that doesn't include all the people who lived and died BEFORE the ones currently living. You are more and more of schmuck every time you you open your yap. But continue, please. I enjoy being amused. I don't know of anyone who is willing to die for believing in Tolkien's admittedly interesting work. I know a lot of people who would be willing to die for their Faith, Jewish or Christian.
So that's the qualifier for a religion?

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Offline beardo

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1208 on: October 27, 2014, 10:08:00 AM »
"A lot of people have faith in something, so it must be true"
The Mastery.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1209 on: October 27, 2014, 01:29:33 PM »
Surely God could have given the others the abililty to understand as well, and not just Moses. I mean, he's God. R-right??

I suppose. But it would have been a bit complicated to give 2 million people the chance to ask questions. I mean, Moses himself probably had a shit-ton of those, don't you think?


QUOTE OF RAMA SET: "So he replaced Genocide with Eugenics.  Great....

Or you might say he knew that it was going to happen, so he simply let it occur.


Of course, that's a matter of personal opinion, and about 1 billion 15 million persons alive TODAY seem to disagree with you, as did he. And that doesn't include all the people who lived and died BEFORE the ones currently living. You are more and more of schmuck every time you you open your yap. But continue, please. I enjoy being amused. I don't know of anyone who is willing to die for believing in Tolkien's admittedly interesting work. I know a lot of people who would be willing to die for their Faith, Jewish or Christian.
So that's the qualifier for a religion?

Not in the slightest. I merely point out that as being one quality which Tolkien's material lacks. In and of itself, I agree, it would not be enough to qualify as a religion. Put it with enough other things, and bingo.

What are those other things? Well, lets face it, the Judeo-Christian code has effected beneficially most systems of law in the West, and even outside the West (basically wherever the West ended up). Of course, before I get the inevitable whining about "genocide of native peoples", lets be honest, people like the Aztecs had it coming. And even with that, the spread of disease was unintentional, as the Europeans had no idea what their bodies carried.

Lets face it. Tolkien never intended to start a religion, and would have probably laughed, and possibly even sued your sorry ass for suggesting anything of the sort. And the question of whether his material is better than the Bible is a matter of opinion, and it is not an opinion that would have been shared by him, given that he was a devout Catholic. Methinks you all need to grow up and act like adults. I realise that is hard for many of you, since you all appear to be stuck in this "waah fuckin' waah" stage of the eternal three year old age group. If I don't get my way, I shall throw myself upon the floor and kick and scream until the adults give me what I want. Waah fuckin' waah.


"A lot of people have faith in something, so it must be true"

Not at all. Again, you have missed the point. It has nothing to do with a lot of people having faith. I was merely pointing out that a lot of people disagreed with him on the literary nerits of Tolkien vs the Bible. That does  not mean anything about the Bible's inspired nature or lack thereof. That is a whole different argument.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 01:32:15 PM by Yonah ben Amittai »

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Offline beardo

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1210 on: October 27, 2014, 01:49:31 PM »
Surely God could have given the others the abililty to understand as well, and not just Moses. I mean, he's God. R-right??

I suppose. But it would have been a bit complicated to give 2 million people the chance to ask questions. I mean, Moses himself probably had a shit-ton of those, don't you think?
God is not powerful enough to answer over 2 million questions at once. Got it.
The Mastery.

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1211 on: October 27, 2014, 02:07:35 PM »
Surely God could have given the others the abililty to understand as well, and not just Moses. I mean, he's God. R-right??

I suppose. But it would have been a bit complicated to give 2 million people the chance to ask questions. I mean, Moses himself probably had a shit-ton of those, don't you think?
God is not powerful enough to answer over 2 million questions at once. Got it.

I hope people learn to start praying just one at a time so God does not get overwhelmed. 

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Offline Tau

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1212 on: October 27, 2014, 02:11:24 PM »
Is there any meaningful difference between the jewish God and Hitler? Both demanded absolute deference, both were more than happy to order the extinction of multiple races through genocide and eugenics, and both felt that their people deserved land which did not belong to them.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1213 on: October 27, 2014, 02:14:56 PM »
Surely God could have given the others the abililty to understand as well, and not just Moses. I mean, he's God. R-right??

I suppose. But it would have been a bit complicated to give 2 million people the chance to ask questions. I mean, Moses himself probably had a shit-ton of those, don't you think?
God is not powerful enough to answer over 2 million questions at once. Got it.

I hope people learn to start praying just one at a time so God does not get overwhelmed. 
Quite so.
The Mastery.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1214 on: October 27, 2014, 02:37:35 PM »
When you read the bible, its almost as if god keeps forgetting he is omnipotent. Weird.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1215 on: October 27, 2014, 04:08:06 PM »
Surely God could have given the others the abililty to understand as well, and not just Moses. I mean, he's God. R-right??

I suppose. But it would have been a bit complicated to give 2 million people the chance to ask questions. I mean, Moses himself probably had a shit-ton of those, don't you think?
God is not powerful enough to answer over 2 million questions at once. Got it.


When you read the bible, its almost as if god keeps forgetting he is omnipotent. Weird.


I think you are all forgetting the manner in which God has always brought a new dispensation to the world. There are many ways he could do it. I suppose he could do it any way he so chose. But he chooses to bring it through one individual, probably because (and this is my guess, not that of the Rabbis, or other people far smarter than me) such a person is far more capable of receiving such a dispensation than your average John Q. Public. And for example, he chose one person, Abraham, to be the father of a nation, the Hebrews. Why a nation? I don't know. He promised them a land, Canaan. They lived there for some time. All the way til they went down to Egypt under Jacob. They spent 430 years there. They went back under Moses.

Why did Moses receive the Law and not the whole nation at once? Well, probably because he could read and write (and again, that is just my guess, not that of the Rabbis or of men much smarter than me; I don't know what they suggest, I'd have to look it up). But the fact that it has to be written down for posterity indicates that someone has to be able to do so, and, again, this is a guess, but I suspect slaves probably didn't know how to read and write, so, once again, Moses would be an ideal choice.

And now we come to the comment that takes the taco for utmost stupid in the entire thread that I have seen yet. Someone has to be a complete fucking idiot to come up with this one. I quote the following gem of stupidity:


Is there any meaningful difference between the jewish God and Hitler? Both demanded absolute deference, both were more than happy to order the extinction of multiple races through genocide and eugenics, and both felt that their people deserved land which did not belong to them.

First off, God did not use positive eugenics in any form. He simply allowed humans to do what humans do, which is intermarry with one another until they no longer exist as groups. In fact, the Jews are one of the few groups that has survived as long as it has because of its tendency NOT to do that. During the Bronze Age, genocide was a standard procedure, whether ordered by God or man. If the Hebrews had not engaged in the practice, it would have been them that would have been genocided (to coin a verb).

Since Canaan was promised to Abraham way back when, long before Moses was even thought of, your last point is no point at all. Remember that after the destruction of four of the Five Cities on the Plain, there was virtually nobody left in Canaan. Abraham's family was. Anyone who came knew the land was his. If they chose to settle there, they knew the land was his. Even though Jacob chose to leave for reasons of famine, the fact that other people showed up was their fault, not his. That does not negate his  claim to the land.

So, bitch and belly-ache all you want. The fact is, that your left-wing "sit around the campfire and lets make friends and sing "CumBayYa" shit isn't real. I mean, seriously. Do you people even hear yourselves, or see what you fucking type? You sound and read like clowns. Lets all go out and make like buddies. Please. Its not realistic.

The fact is that there are no moderate Muslims in the world that are willing to speak out against the ones that are killing and slaughtering people that don't agree with them, because they are too damned afraid of being next on the list. The fact also is that  in the fucking Bronze Age brutality was such that either you did it to them, or they did it to you. Take your pick. And don't tell me you would have done anything differently.

If you had lived during the Bronze Age, and the opportunity had presented itself, you would have slaughtered your enemy, and taken his land and women captive. That is the way it was done. And if you had done otherwise, they would have done it to you. And you would have known that. So, don't tell me that YOU would have been different. If you are stupid enough to try to tell me that, I will laugh in your face.

With a Master's degree in History, I know full well what people are. You are no different than anyone else. The Gandhis and the Mother Theresas of the world are few and far between. I seriously doubt if there is one of those among any of us here.

So, whether you say its because you would have done it, or because your God ordered you to do it, the fact is you would have slaughtered your enemy, and hung his head on a fucking pike, and taken his women captive, and married the virgins, and given the married girls over to the soldiers for spoil. That's just how it was.

Its not a matter of being like Hitler. And in fact, today's Israel with the so-called "Palestinians" is far kinder than any other Occupying Power in the history of the world, as I have proven in previous postings on this thread. So I strongly suggest you shut the fuck up and quit your bitching. I have never seen more WAAAAAAAAAAH FUCKIN' WAAAAAAAAAAH! in my entire life.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 04:13:56 PM by Yonah ben Amittai »

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1216 on: October 27, 2014, 04:12:37 PM »
Yeah, there is no middle ground between liking Hitler and sitting around a campfire while holding hands and singing songs about friendship.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

Rama Set

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1217 on: October 27, 2014, 04:39:35 PM »
Yonah-After the shooting in Ottawa a Muslim spoke out against Islamic violence to a national audience. Stop being such a bigot and thinking that disliking genocide makes someone soft.




Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1218 on: October 27, 2014, 04:48:13 PM »
A MUSLIM, 1, spoke out against. My, that's mighty white of him! I don't see them doing anything to stop it though. Until I see every Muslim in the United States lining up at recruiting stations to enter the military, and volunteering to go over there, until I see Muslims in the Middle East start sending armies to fight ISIS, until I start seeing Muslims in the Middle East starting to support Israel in its fight against Hamas (ISIS Lite) and Hezbollah, I don't buy the bullshit.

I oppose genocide myself. I'm only saying that if we had lived in the Bronze Age, we would have thought differently, and you are no different than me. And don't pretend for a moment that you are. Quit the pie in the sky "Cumbaya" shit. Be real.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 09:33:57 PM by Yonah ben Amittai »

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #1219 on: October 27, 2014, 05:03:55 PM »
Quote
until I see Muslims in the Middle East start sending armies to fight ISIS

You know that most Iraqis figting IS are Muslims, right? As are the Jordanians, Arabs, Saudis, Kurds, Bahrainians...