Show Posts
This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.
Please link us to the observations that verify that website, rather than attempting to divert.
Please link us to the observations that verify that website, rather than attempting to divert.How about the fact that if you google for "timeanddate.com is incorrect" - the only hits you get are for things like which cities have daylight savings time - and mundane stuff like that. Nobody seems to be complaining about any of the results about sunrises and sunsets and so forth.
If the underlying math behind that site was as badly wrong as FET predicts - there would be MOUNTAINS of complaints about errors of tens of minutes in sunrise and sunset times. Yet I see almost none of those. If you scroll down the search results far enough, you find an occasional complaint like that - but then if you read the place where the comment is made, it's always some user error like swapping latitude for longitude or forgetting a minus sign or something.
If timeanddate.com were that badly (and systematically) incorrect - there would MILLIONS of people complaining about it.
They don't - it clearly is a good match for the observations of people around the world where it's used.
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/timeanddate.com shows that this is the roughly 700'th most visited site on the Internet - they have over 50 million visitors PER DAY. If it didn't work well, either very few people would use it - or the complaint rates would be off the charts...and they're not.
Sure - you'll find a way to weasel out and reject this as evidence...I have popcorn ready.
You just fell short of saying that you'd accept this as evidence.
Will you accept such a demonstration as "proof" - if you will, then I'll do the work. If you won't, then it's a waste of my time.
* I pick four cities.
* I find widely published flight times and distances between them.
* I construct a quadrilateral from those distances.
* I calculate whether the diagonals "fit" to within a reasonable degree of error.
If they do, then I'd be forced to admit that the earth was flat.
If they do not - then you'd be forced to admit that it's not.
So...what's your answer - would you accept this methodology?
dateandtime.com gives fully accepted data you can use for analysis to produce a model of the earth.Quote from: 3DGeekAt some point in that movement, the sun MUST, for 100% sure be setting in the south or north of some other densely inhabited part of the world. Since we know for 100% sure that this never happens.
How do you know that it never happens? The Sun can set South-West, even in the Round Earth model.
Please provide your source on word-wide observation logs of the sun before continuing your argument. Thanks!
Quote from: Tom Bishop 8link=topic=6588.msg121378#msg121378 date=1501427725dateandtime.com has data that is not disputed, you should use that for your work.The sun being over the equator in the Flat Earth model isn't "impossible". I don't see what point you are making there.
Tom - you're missing the point. Yes, of course the sun is vertically above the equator twice a year (mid-day in spring and autumn).
The point is this: IF the sun is over the equator (in FET) - then it must be simultaneously directly to the SOUTH of places at the same longitude in the Northern Hemisphere/Hemiplane and directly NORTH of some points in the Southern Hemiplane...and the distance from those points would be enough to ensure that (by your own math) the sun would be setting in those locations.
In RET, the sun is so far away that it never comes anywhere near the horizon at noon in spring and autumn.
Hands up anyone who ever saw the sun setting anywhere other than the West?
Even more to the point I was trying to get to in the first place. On that day, when it's noon anywhere, the place the sun is rising is going to see a sunrise dew east, but the location where the sun is overhead at that moment IS NOT EAST of there. Hence, that map is impossible.
Do you have any source for these observations?
http://wiki.tfes.org/Layout_of_the_Continents Is enough of a source to wreck itself. Print the top map as large as you can. Place a tack anywhere on the equator. That's where the Sun is at noon on the equinox in the location you stuck it, also according to the wiki. Draw a line from the "Sun" dew west. That's all you need. The line headed west immediately diverges from the equator. Case closed, that map can't be.
At some point in that movement, the sun MUST, for 100% sure be setting in the south or north of some other densely inhabited part of the world. Since we know for 100% sure that this never happens.
What about it? Flat Earth maps are currently under investigation. If you have some data to contribute I would suggest starting a formal thread to collect such information to share. *The contribution is that the investigation on the Flat Earth maps can conclusively end thanks to the airline data provided here and accessible online. Because of this data, all current Flat Earth map proposals are known to be false. Not slightly off, not an approximate representation, but fundamentally flawed. This is a significant contribution to help the members of this forum and society discover and accept the truth about the shape of the Earth. The data and it's application is not presented to antagonize or mislead, it is presented as factual information that help us accept truth and disregard falsehood.
*emphasis added by myself
Not all map possibilities have been considered. There is no accepted Flat Earth map. There are only proposals which have been made by a few people, with no attempts at accuracy except to show basic features of the model.
In order to prove a Flat Earth wrong you will need to show that it is impossible to make a Flat Earth map. You will need to find logs of all airline flights, map all continental distance and layout possibilities under monopole and bipole models, consider that there are many airports which do not have direct nonstop routes between each other, look into jet streams, and study flight delays which are said to happen to 25% of all flights. And only then, once thoroughly investigated, can you claim that there is no possible Flat Earth map. I expect nothing less from someone who declares any map to be impossible.
OK - so if I did that - you'd believe me?!?!
If you'll promise to accept this as definitive evidence of the impossibility of the Flat Earth - then I'd be more than happy to undertake that work! I already have the means to do it (I write flight simulator software for a living) - and I have nothing else important to do next weekend.
All that is necessary is to produce four cities in a rough square with non stop flights between each one and the other three. This will make up a quadrilateral with two diagonals. If the world is flat then the diagonal distances will be geometrically consistent with the length of the four sides and that fact can be trivially demonstrated with geometry that's been known since the Ancient Greeks.
If the world is round, then the diagonals won't agree.
Would you really accept that evidence?
The sun being over the equator in the Flat Earth model isn't "impossible". I don't see what point you are making there.
Tom - you're missing the point. Yes, of course the sun is vertically above the equator twice a year (mid-day in spring and autumn).
The point is this: IF the sun is over the equator (in FET) - then it must be simultaneously directly to the SOUTH of places at the same longitude in the Northern Hemisphere/Hemiplane and directly NORTH of some points in the Southern Hemiplane...and the distance from those points would be enough to ensure that (by your own math) the sun would be setting in those locations.
In RET, the sun is so far away that it never comes anywhere near the horizon at noon in spring and autumn.
Hands up anyone who ever saw the sun setting anywhere other than the West?
Even more to the point I was trying to get to in the first place. On that day, when it's noon anywhere, the place the sun is rising is going to see a sunrise dew east, but the location where the sun is overhead at that moment IS NOT EAST of there. Hence, that map is impossible.
How can you say that when you do not have a model? Clearly the path of the sun shows the earth to be round with multiple observations and measurements from different locations.
You wouldn't accept us showing you a map and proclaiming that it it true and beyond question, right?I for one, would absolutely love to see your map. I however would just say it’s fake. I would attempt to verify if stands up to measured distances and so on. Do you guys seriously not even have a map?
So why, then, should we accept the sun calculators as unquestionable? Claims were made in this thread, and they need to be supported with evidence. The creator of this thread is maintaining that he has posted "facts" with his sun calculator predictions and that everyone reading should accept it without question. If you guys predict that the sun will appear at a particular spot at a certain date and location, then we expect that you will be able to support your prediction. It is not automatically true.
I did call the original sunrise time’s facts. So what? I immediately offered multiple other options, anything you could agree to just to get to the simple… wait for it…. Fact that the sun rises in the east. Dun dun dunnnnnnnn!!!!!!
Just out of curiosity, how many times does a utterly simple calculator have to predict the sunrise and sunset (not to mention you can set it to times in the past) before it’s excepted? Why haven’t you made one based on your theories yet? Give the formula and I program it for you.
The sun predictions need to be affirmed with actual observations. We have asked for these sun observations on many occasions throughout the years, and after a lot of searching, the Round Earth proponents come up empty again and again, all while still maintaining their vague references that the plethora of data is out there, which they somehow cannot seem to find. It is getting to be quite pathetic.
You can keep saying it and it doesn't change anything. How can you be so obtuse? Let's quote YOUR wiki, shall we?
"To locate your latitude on the flat earth, it's important to know the following fact: The degrees of the earth's latitude are based upon the angle of the sun in the sky at noon equinox.
That's why 0° N/S sits on the equator where the sun is directly overhead, and why 90° N/S sits at the poles where the sun is at a right angle to the observer. At 45 North or South from the equator, the sun will sit at an angle 45° in the sky. The angle of the sun past zenith is our latitude."
Just keep reading that until it sinks in or go delete it or prove it wrong.
Knowing that as you recede North or South from the equator at equinox, the sun will descend at a pace of one degree per 69.5 miles, we can even derive our distance from the equator based upon the position of the sun in the sky.
http://wiki.tfes.org/Finding_your_Latitude_and_Longitude
And now it looks to me like Tom and others are beginning to concede the point that the South Pole definitely has similar daylight traits as the North Pole... thus the search for a new map model must begin in earnest.
What about it? Flat Earth maps are currently under investigation. If you have some data to contribute I would suggest starting a formal thread to collect such information to share. *The contribution is that the investigation on the Flat Earth maps can conclusively end thanks to the airline data provided here and accessible online. Because of this data, all current Flat Earth map proposals are known to be false. Not slightly off, not an approximate representation, but fundamentally flawed. This is a significant contribution to help the members of this forum and society discover and accept the truth about the shape of the Earth. The data and it's application is not presented to antagonize or mislead, it is presented as factual information that help us accept truth and disregard falsehood.
*emphasis added by myself
Do you agree the site is accurate for your location, surely something you would be interested in checking?As requested, have you made observations and measurements? If www.timeanddate.com was producing incorrect numbers we would know and nobody would be using it.
You want us to gather your evidence for your claims for you? Why would we do that? Your claim, your burden.
We have no idea how accurate timeanddate.com is. There is no transparency. We have no observational reports of verification and we don't even know how the data is being created. As far as we know that website, or the source it gets its information from, is slightly modifying the sunlight model every time someone reports a discrepancy to the point where it is no longer based on a Round Earth Model.
Your carefully crafted words like 'slightly modifying the sunlight model' make no sense.
You use the word 'we' a lot, but who are 'you' when the key point is to determine the correct shape etc. of the earth, whatever it is? If 'you' believe eg. the times of sunrise and sunset, which prove a round earth if you do the maths, are wrong you should say where they are incorrect.
All the data we have shows a round earth, if you believe otherwise then why is do difficult for 'you' to provide a few sample measurements to show otherwise?
As requested, have you made observations and measurements? If www.timeanddate.com was producing incorrect numbers we would know and nobody would be using it.