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1
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by Tom Bishop on Today at 02:16:13 PM »
Quote from: honk
The difference is that CEOs and celebrities aren't public servants. It absolutely matters if people are spending money on the president's businesses to try and curry favor with him.

Wrong. When you pay a business for a product or service you get something in return. It is a stretch to say that a business owner owes something more to someone who already bought a good or a service from him.

In contrast to owning and operating a business, politicians regularly solicit and receive millions of dollars through donations. Politician like Obama were asking for large sums of money from donators, even in his last term. Why should we believe that a business owner is more likely to be corrupt than a politician who is handed a wad of cash by a corporation for vague reasons through donation companies?

What you believe should happen is also irrelevant to the fact that Trump's voters knew that he would be running his businesses once elected, especially when he was elected for his second term. Trump made that very clear, and people supported him for it, especially in light of the malicious prosecution against Trump and his companies. The voters wanted this. That is called democracy, and supersedes your small leftist complaint.

Quote from: honk
We were doing just fine with the expectation that the president should not be making money on the side before Trump came along, and we'll continue to do just fine by taking the next step of codifying it into law.

Laws which are codified through Congress are the result of democracy and representative democracy. Congress votes on the matter, and people vote for congress members. In this case, the people have already voted on this.

The fact that businesses have existed long before the creation of the country and neither the founders of the United States, its many congresses, or its courts up to present have had an issue with this also shows that you are on the losing side of this and do not have a supportable argument. You would be better off with a list of examples of corruption which have harmed the country through this mechanism, rather than handwaving a potential one in contrived scenarios where people owe strangers favors from unsolicited money and without agreement that a favor is owed.
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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by Action80 on Today at 05:23:40 AM »
It's not like there's a long history of presidents.
FTFY.
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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by honk on Today at 12:00:00 AM »
That's not the issue in conflict of interest. Conflict of interest issues deal with workplace ethics and responsibilities. It doesn't matter if a bank is giving bigger loans to CEOs. It doesn't matter if celebrities are using their celebrity to get last minute tables at high profile restaurants. The issue arises when that CEO or celebrity utilizes their workplace to give favor to that entity. As long as they are not doing that then they are free to receive benefits and make as much money as they want, and so is Trump.

The difference is that CEOs and celebrities aren't public servants. It absolutely matters if people are spending money on the president's businesses to try and curry favor with Trump. And rather than allow the president to dabble in business and take it on faith that they can resist the temptation to use their awesome power to benefit their own business interests, I think it's much simpler and safer if we legally require the president to divest from all business interests before they take office and prohibit them from taking new ones, and then we don't need to worry about this kind of thing. If you really want to be president, then you should be willing to make the sacrifice of forgoing your business aspirations. Bear in mind that this is only a problem because Trump made it one. It's not like there's a long history of presidents in the modern era running side gigs. We were doing just fine with the expectation that the president should not be making money on the side before Trump came along, and we'll continue to do just fine by taking the next step of codifying it into law.
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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by Action80 on May 17, 2025, 07:10:17 PM »

Also, Obama is well known for having rejected gifts.

https://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/01/politics/barack-obama-michelle-obama-gifts

Quote
But Obama, like any other federal employee, is legally barred from accepting any of it outright.
This was in 2015. 

Where in the hell does the article state Obama was "well known," for rejecting gifts?
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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by Tom Bishop on May 17, 2025, 01:28:47 PM »
I just see a bung of random clips without context. "If I said that, that's quid pro quo", said what? Quid pro quo requires a pro quo. I don't see that Trump has offered anything in return.

I also don't see that there is a history of presidents rejecting gifts. The gifts given to presidents go to the National Archives, which is where the plane is going. So I am not sure what you guys are whining about, exactly.
That's from the june 28 debate.


"Joe could be a convicted felon with all of the things that he’s done. He’s done horrible things. All of the death caused at the border, telling the Ukrainian people that, we’re going to want a billion dollars or you change the prosecutor. Otherwise, you’re not getting a billion dollars. If I ever said that, that’s quid pro quo. That – we’re not going to do anything. We’re not going to give you a billion dollars unless you change your prosecutor having to do with his son. This man is a criminal."


Yes, what Joe biden did is close to quid pro quo because it is a political act in exchange for a financial favor. But more accurately it's closer to blackmail and corruption because it was money they were already supposed to get, which he was threatening to withhold unless they fired the prosecutor, which would coincidentally benefit his son.

I don't see how this relates to the plane situation, however.

Quote from: Lord Dave
Also, Obama is well known for having rejected gifts.

https://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/01/politics/barack-obama-michelle-obama-gifts

Quote
But Obama, like any other federal employee, is legally barred from accepting any of it outright.
This was in 2015.

It says that he can't accept it "outright", by which they mean "personally." Read the rest of that section for context. In the previous paragraph in the same section and topic it says that the Obama Presidency did accept the gifts:

    "In the Obamas’ case, most of the items have been dispensed to the National Archives, while a few, including wine and perishables, are handled by the Secret Service."

The Obama Presidency accepted the gifts, even if they didn't get put on display and were not particularly paraded. This affirms that the norm is for the US President to accept the gifts, and that they ultimately go to the National Archives. It is actually inappropriate and rude to tell a King or Queen that you don't want the gift that they made efforts to prepare for you.
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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by Lord Dave on May 17, 2025, 01:10:01 PM »
I just see a bung of random clips without context. "If I said that, that's quid pro quo", said what? Quid pro quo requires a pro quo. I don't see that Trump has offered anything in return.

I also don't see that there is a history of presidents rejecting gifts. The gifts given to presidents go to the National Archives, which is where the plane is going. So I am not sure what you guys are whining about, exactly.
That's from the june 28 debate.


"Joe could be a convicted felon with all of the things that he’s done. He’s done horrible things. All of the death caused at the border, telling the Ukrainian people that, we’re going to want a billion dollars or you change the prosecutor. Otherwise, you’re not getting a billion dollars. If I ever said that, that’s quid pro quo. That – we’re not going to do anything. We’re not going to give you a billion dollars unless you change your prosecutor having to do with his son. This man is a criminal."


Also, Obama is well known for having rejected gifts.

https://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/01/politics/barack-obama-michelle-obama-gifts

Quote
But Obama, like any other federal employee, is legally barred from accepting any of it outright.
This was in 2015. 
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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by Tom Bishop on May 17, 2025, 12:05:10 PM »
I just see a bunch of random clips without context. "If I said that, that's quid pro quo", said what? Quid pro quo requires a pro quo. I don't see that Trump has offered anything in return.

I also don't see that there is a history of presidents rejecting gifts. The gifts given to presidents go to the National Archives and Records Administration, which is where the plane is going. Considering that this is how it has worked in the past, I am not sure what you guys are whining about.
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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by Lord Dave on May 17, 2025, 04:18:08 AM »
Lets ask 2016 Trump what he thinks if 2025 Trump.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump
« Last post by Action80 on May 16, 2025, 08:47:59 PM »
^Shhh...quiet everyone...

markjo is going to tell us all about how he knows what is and isn't "classified," concerning AF1...aka, stuff real close to the "basic physics," or "emoluments," buzzwords that he so dearly loves to toss about as an "insider."

LMMFAO!!!