tl;dr: NASA would not be able to classify information concerning faking a Moon landing.

These are the current rules for classification of information. §3.3(a) states that all documents from more than 25 years ago are automatically declassified, with nine exceptions outlined in §3.3(b):

  • Information identifying a key intelligence source or weaken intelligence gathering.
  • Information regarding WMDs.
  • Codebooks.
  • Information that would weaken a state-of-the-art weapons system.
  • War plans that are still in effect.
  • Information that would greatly weaken diplomatic relations.
  • Presidential security detail or its vulnerabilities.
  • Weaknesses in national security emergency preparations.
  • Information whose declassification would violate a treaty or act of Congress.

I must ask, which of these would faking the Moon landings fall under?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 01:26:50 AM by 9 out of 10 doctors agree »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2018, 11:26:57 PM »
4.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 11:30:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline SiDawg

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Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2018, 11:29:11 PM »
Sonofabitch... i just got how your signature works haha. I was wondering why you and westprog loved me so much!

But i guess moon landing would fall under 6 :P
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Long range, high altitude, potentially solar powered airplanes [...] If the planes are travelling approx 15 miles about earth, that works out to around 2,200 mph, or Mach 3

Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2018, 11:29:55 PM »
4.
Care to elaborate? I can't see how the mere fact that the Moon landings were faked could weaken a state-of-the-art weapons system.
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Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2018, 11:32:24 PM »
But i guess moon landing would fall under 6 :P
It would certainly discredit the US, but how would it do any more damage than that?
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Offline Tontogary

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Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2018, 11:58:31 PM »
4.

Shortest post in history.

Care to elaborate on it? How could the fact that moon landings were faked be used to undermine a state of the art weapons system?

Your claim, your proof required, or at least an explanation.

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2018, 01:16:57 AM »
Consider the purpose of NASA's creation during the Cold War and you will see the consequence of it being all fake.

Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2018, 01:26:29 AM »
Consider the purpose of NASA's creation during the Cold War and you will see the consequence of it being all fake.
Funny you should mention that, because §1.7(a)(2) specifically forbids classifying documents in order to "prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or agency".

And remember, §1.1(b) puts the burden of proof on the person who wants it classified.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2018, 01:32:17 AM »
Consider the purpose of NASA's creation during the Cold War and you will see the consequence of it being all fake.
Funny you should mention that, because §1.7(a)(2) specifically forbids classifying documents in order to "prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or agency".

And remember, §1.1(b) puts the burden of proof on the person who wants it classified.

Wrong. NASA's creation during the Cold War was to allow for nukes with an international range, space weapons, and weapon delivery systems.

Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2018, 01:34:22 AM »
Consider the purpose of NASA's creation during the Cold War and you will see the consequence of it being all fake.
Funny you should mention that, because §1.7(a)(2) specifically forbids classifying documents in order to "prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or agency".

And remember, §1.1(b) puts the burden of proof on the person who wants it classified.

Wrong. NASA's creation during the Cold War was all about nukes with an international range, space weapons, and weapon delivery systems.
Of course, FET contends that the rockets were all real, so how would declassifying how they did the rest undermine ICBMs?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2018, 01:43:10 AM »
Of course, FET contends that the rockets were all real, so how would declassifying how they did the rest undermine ICBMs?

Long range ICBMs require earth orbit to exist. If NASA is a fraud that can't get anything into earth orbit then it weakens the US ICBM Iron Curtain for itself and its allies.

The fact that the United States won the Cold War and put these highly advanced military systems in place is the main reasons the United States is the overwhelming superpower in the world today, why the US Dollar is the standard currency of the world, and why many countries have its reserves in US dollars.

The ability to get nukes into orbit changes the world power dynamic. Wars can now be won at the push of a button without drafting your countrymen and sending your people to die in battle. It is the ultimate weapon. This ultimate weapon is what has allowed the USA to be the most prosperous and stable country on earth. It is the key to its power, and it takes little insight to see why that is important to protect.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 01:59:13 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2018, 01:52:08 AM »
ICBMs usually travel in suborbital trajectories, which saves a lot of fuel. It would also be possible on a flat Earth.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2018, 02:00:08 AM »
ICBMs usually travel in suborbital trajectories, which saves a lot of fuel. It would also be possible on a flat Earth.

Look at Hitler's rocket programs during WWII. Without getting into earth orbit he could only get his rockets to an operational range of 200 miles or so.

After WWII ended the Cold War goal was to get Hitler's rockets into orbit for unlimited range, and to put in a nuclear payload. The rockets thenceforth were all based on the Nazi V2 design. The V2 was recreated from Nazi blueprints and launched in White Sands New Mexico, and modifications were made to it until it could allegedly get into earth orbit.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 02:05:41 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2018, 02:04:48 AM »
Look at Hitler's rocket programs during WWII. Without getting into earth orbit he could only get his rockets to an operational range of 200 miles or so.
They could get rockets to 500 miles according to my source. At that point, it's not much Δv away from intercontinental.
Quote
After WWII ended the Cold War goal was to get Hitler's rockets into orbit for unlimited range, and to put in a nuclear payload. The rockets thenceforth were all based on the Nazi V2 design.
Again, ICBMs don't go to orbit.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2018, 02:21:40 AM »
Look at Hitler's rocket programs during WWII. Without getting into earth orbit he could only get his rockets to an operational range of 200 miles or so.
They could get rockets to 500 miles according to my source. At that point, it's not much Δv away from intercontinental.
Quote
After WWII ended the Cold War goal was to get Hitler's rockets into orbit for unlimited range, and to put in a nuclear payload. The rockets thenceforth were all based on the Nazi V2 design.
Again, ICBMs don't go to orbit.

The V2 Wikipedia page says that it has an operational range of 200 miles. If it was possible to Hitler to send a rocket 500 miles, that would still require him to place his weapon near a country's border. It is not much of an ultimate weapon if your enemy can intercept the launch vehicle and destroy it, nor is it much good if you can't reach all of your enemies with it. Hitler couldn't hit the US with his rockets. This limited the terror of his weapon.

A weapon that can be launched from anywhere, and hit any target, is the ultimate threat.

Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2018, 02:28:03 AM »
I can tell that this thread won't go anywhere as-is, since most of the details of ICBMs are top secret, so allow me to take a different approach: what makes fake ICBMs and mutually assured destruction qualify as state-of-the-art? And why would ICBMs avoid being exposed as fake, but not Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative?
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JohnAdams1145

Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2018, 04:51:45 AM »
Consider the purpose of NASA's creation during the Cold War and you will see the consequence of it being all fake.
Funny you should mention that, because §1.7(a)(2) specifically forbids classifying documents in order to "prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or agency".

And remember, §1.1(b) puts the burden of proof on the person who wants it classified.

Wrong. NASA's creation during the Cold War was to allow for nukes with an international range, space weapons, and weapon delivery systems.

Wait, what? I thought you said that intercontinental ballistic missiles don't work! So why would we form a space agency to allow for things that don't work? That's like me creating a space agency and perpetuating lies to hide my flying rubber ducky! Seems like the U.S. and USSR are a bunch of bumbling idiots!

Oh wait! Now you're saying that they DO work? That the U.S. is a superpower because of the intercontinental range of its missiles? HOW CAN THEY BE MISTAKEN THEN, ABOUT THE FLAT EARTH? You know, if you had a semblance of an understanding of how ... force diagrams and Newton's 2nd Law ... work, perhaps you'd see that ballistic missiles with intercontinental range have to go really high?

Long range ICBMs require earth orbit to exist. If NASA is a fraud that can't get anything into earth orbit then it weakens the US ICBM Iron Curtain for itself and its allies.

You really need to do some 30-second searches before spouting this nonsense. Seriously. This is not even a debate when one side comes back with such poor argument. Why in the world do you think you're so much better than all of the scientists in the U.S. government and in private institutions everywhere when you can't even do elementary physics and don't even understand elementary concepts in space travel? Do you really think you're that good?
1. "Iron Curtain" does NOT refer to the U.S. ICBM stockpile. I don't even know where you got this misconception in history from.
2. ICBMs do not require orbit to exist. Do you not understand how a ballistic trajectory (i.e. introductory mechanics taught at any respectable educational institution) works? That's like saying pitchers need to send baseballs into orbit for them to make it to home plate. Where do you get these misconceptions from? Why do you think you're even in a position to criticize established science?

Why haven't you taken a class in physics at your local community college? I'll ask again, do you really think you know that much about physics when you can't even get basic details correct?

While the technical details of ICBMs are closely-guarded secrets, the basic physics about how they work are well-known. It's even in the name: ballistic missiles... We know they burn solid fuel for a while, and then just fall toward their destinations.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 05:01:21 AM by JohnAdams1145 »

Offline andiwd

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Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2018, 08:22:03 AM »
Actually if the gravitational attraction of a a disk does not drop away according to the inverse-square law but is approximately constant and perpendicular to the disk, missile trajectories become parabolic rather than segments of elliptical orbits; as such they wouldn't have the range to be inter-continental.

The bizarre aspect of this theory though is if both America and the Soviet Union know that it's impossible to go into space or launch missiles at one another, why did they spend such staggering amounts of money perpetuating the myth? You could make the claim of course that one side was scared the other side was able to do it and was spending money to keep up the masquerade, but that falls apart since according the FET the Soviets and Americans must have jointly conspired to keep up this farce (Soviets confirming the moon landing and Apollo/Soyuz). If they both know each other were faking it, why didn't the Soviets just occupy Europe since a major part of the nuclear deterrent was a myth?

Offline isaacN

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Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2018, 03:46:03 PM »
Consider the purpose of NASA's creation during the Cold War and you will see the consequence of it being all fake.

The Cold War was brought into being long before NASA came along. The true historical date, and not a flat earth imagined one is 1947, though one could argue that Potsdam in 1945 laid the foundations. Imagining NASA created the Cold War after WW2 is just ludicrous and has no historical basis whatsoever.
Your atempt to once more distort historical facts to suit your own agenda is rather concerning.

Offline isaacN

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Re: Where are the documents from NASA that show it's all a hoax?
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2018, 03:58:15 PM »
Look at Hitler's rocket programs during WWII. Without getting into earth orbit he could only get his rockets to an operational range of 200 miles or so.
They could get rockets to 500 miles according to my source. At that point, it's not much Δv away from intercontinental.
Quote
After WWII ended the Cold War goal was to get Hitler's rockets into orbit for unlimited range, and to put in a nuclear payload. The rockets thenceforth were all based on the Nazi V2 design.
Again, ICBMs don't go to orbit.

The V2 Wikipedia page says that it has an operational range of 200 miles. If it was possible to Hitler to send a rocket 500 miles, that would still require him to place his weapon near a country's border. It is not much of an ultimate weapon if your enemy can intercept the launch vehicle and destroy it, nor is it much good if you can't reach all of your enemies with it. Hitler couldn't hit the US with his rockets. This limited the terror of his weapon.

A weapon that can be launched from anywhere, and hit any target, is the ultimate threat.

You really have no idea of historical facts. The V2 rockets were initially viewed as a terror weapon aimed mostly at civilian targets in London, where 3,000 civilians were killed,and other European cities. The Germans fired just under 4000 with over half being directed towards targets in the Uk, where it created much terror among the population. The USA was never seen as a target fo the V2. Though the first photo from space, 1947, was taken from a V2, again well before the creation of your arch enemy NASA.