Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2018, 10:01:41 AM »
but he didn't just bluntly say "people say x, therefore truth value"
Outside of the world of mathematics it’s pretty much impossible to prove anything absolutely
There is a reason why in UK courts something must be proven beyond reasonable doubt.
You have 10 witnesses that say that Pete shot Tom in cold blood over a dispute over the FE Wiki. They all claim they saw him.
What if they are all mistaken? It’s possible. Or it was someone who really looks like Pete.
But Pete’s fingerprints are on the gun.
Well, how do you know he didn’t handle the gun earlier in the day then left the gun lying around and someone else shot Tom?
…and so on.
The objections can get increasingly ridiculous but you could always say there’s some doubt. But is the doubt reasonable?
That’s for the jury to decide.

If I was building a case for a round earth the fact that every serious scientist believes in a round earth would absolutely be part of the case.
In itself it doesn’t prove it, but it does add weight to the likelihood of it being true.
This why they have "expert witnesses" in court cases, their expertise does add weight to a claim.
It doesn't automatically make it true but their opinion isn't irrelevant either.

Is it possible that every scientist is mistaken?
That all rocket launches by multiple countries are faked and secretly land somewhere?
That every photo and video from space is faked.
That every astronaut is lying.
That all the space tourists are too, or have been fooled somehow.
That the ISS isn't real and observations of it from earth are actually of something else?
Is it possible that Sky is lying about their signals coming from a geostationary satellite or being fooled by the European space agency?
Is it possible that GPS and satellite phones work in a way differently to the way they’re said to?

By the strictest definition of the word I’d have to concede that yes, all this is possible.
But is there anything which provides some reasonable doubt and makes any of this plausible?
I’d say no.

And the thing is, you can test things for yourself. You should get horizon dip on a globe earth, several ways have been shown recently which demonstrates that, I see no effort from any FE to do their own tests. As someone else noted, you can observe the ISS for yourself. You don't have to take other people's word for it.
You say you have done some experiments on the sinking ship thing. It's a shame your results aren't more easily available, I'd like to look at them.
The best I've seen about that on here is from Tom where a speck was "restored" by zoom. But the speck was just that, you could see no detail. And when they zoomed in it was clear the ship was not as far away as the horizon. You can see plenty of examples online of ships beyond the horizon which can't be restored by zoom because they are clearly behind a "hill of water". I don't have the equipment to do my own tests and, honestly, I don't feel the need to.

I'd like to understand why Tom thinks that earth is different from the other planets. Yes, there's life here. But otherwise we have many of the same characteristics as the other planets, there's no good reason to think we're special (leaving religion aside) or different from the other planets.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline ElTrancy

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2018, 01:40:14 PM »
but he didn't just bluntly say "people say x, therefore truth value"
Outside of the world of mathematics it’s pretty much impossible to prove anything absolutely
There is a reason why in UK courts something must be proven beyond reasonable doubt.
You have 10 witnesses that say that Pete shot Tom in cold blood over a dispute over the FE Wiki. They all claim they saw him.
What if they are all mistaken? It’s possible. Or it was someone who really looks like Pete.
But Pete’s fingerprints are on the gun.
Well, how do you know he didn’t handle the gun earlier in the day then left the gun lying around and someone else shot Tom?
…and so on.
The objections can get increasingly ridiculous but you could always say there’s some doubt. But is the doubt reasonable?
That’s for the jury to decide.

If I was building a case for a round earth the fact that every serious scientist believes in a round earth would absolutely be part of the case.
In itself it doesn’t prove it, but it does add weight to the likelihood of it being true.
This why they have "expert witnesses" in court cases, their expertise does add weight to a claim.
It doesn't automatically make it true but their opinion isn't irrelevant either.

Is it possible that every scientist is mistaken?
That all rocket launches by multiple countries are faked and secretly land somewhere?
That every photo and video from space is faked.
That every astronaut is lying.
That all the space tourists are too, or have been fooled somehow.
That the ISS isn't real and observations of it from earth are actually of something else?
Is it possible that Sky is lying about their signals coming from a geostationary satellite or being fooled by the European space agency?
Is it possible that GPS and satellite phones work in a way differently to the way they’re said to?

By the strictest definition of the word I’d have to concede that yes, all this is possible.
But is there anything which provides some reasonable doubt and makes any of this plausible?
I’d say no.

And the thing is, you can test things for yourself. You should get horizon dip on a globe earth, several ways have been shown recently which demonstrates that, I see no effort from any FE to do their own tests. As someone else noted, you can observe the ISS for yourself. You don't have to take other people's word for it.
You say you have done some experiments on the sinking ship thing. It's a shame your results aren't more easily available, I'd like to look at them.
The best I've seen about that on here is from Tom where a speck was "restored" by zoom. But the speck was just that, you could see no detail. And when they zoomed in it was clear the ship was not as far away as the horizon. You can see plenty of examples online of ships beyond the horizon which can't be restored by zoom because they are clearly behind a "hill of water". I don't have the equipment to do my own tests and, honestly, I don't feel the need to.

I'd like to understand why Tom thinks that earth is different from the other planets. Yes, there's life here. But otherwise we have many of the same characteristics as the other planets, there's no good reason to think we're special (leaving religion aside) or different from the other planets.

That...that is probably the best argument I've ever read...
Please fucking launch a mininuke at me, I've become hopelessly lost.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2018, 05:23:45 PM »
We can view other objects and see that they are round. They are also barren and lifeless. The two are quite related. Round worlds can't support life.

Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2018, 05:47:46 PM »
They are also barren and lifeless.
Only as far as we know. My favorite solution to the Fermi Paradox: they're out there somewhere, just impossible to see.
Quote
The two are quite related.
Correlation =/= causation.
Quote
Round worlds can't support life.
If Europa's surface ice suddenly melted, what would stop life from forming?
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Offline ElTrancy

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2018, 05:50:43 PM »
They are also barren and lifeless.
Only as far as we know. My favorite solution to the Fermi Paradox: they're out there somewhere, just impossible to see.
Quote
The two are quite related.
Correlation =/= causation.
Quote
Round worlds can't support life.
If Europa's surface ice suddenly melted, what would stop life from forming?

I'm also confused, since A is similar to B and A and B don't have life, then C can't support life if it was like A and B...does that make any sense?
Please fucking launch a mininuke at me, I've become hopelessly lost.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2018, 07:19:33 PM »
They are also barren and lifeless.
Only as far as we know. My favorite solution to the Fermi Paradox: they're out there somewhere, just impossible to see.

That's not a solution, that's a concession.

Quote
The two are quite related.
Correlation =/= causation.

An idea parroted by people who have never once touched the subject of data analysis in their entire lives.

Quote
Round worlds can't support life.
If Europa's surface ice suddenly melted, what would stop life from forming?

What exactly would cause life to form there? I'm sure you know exactly how life is formed, and you can prove it. Your Nobel prize in chemistry awaits!

Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2018, 08:01:45 PM »
They are also barren and lifeless.
Only as far as we know. My favorite solution to the Fermi Paradox: they're out there somewhere, just impossible to see.

That's not a solution, that's a concession.
Our largest telescopes can barely make out exoplanets as tiny dots. Do you really think that we'd see aliens?
Quote

Quote
The two are quite related.
Correlation =/= causation.

An idea parroted by people who have never once touched the subject of data analysis in their entire lives.
Ah, so pirates prevent global warming? Got it.
Quote
Quote
Round worlds can't support life.
If Europa's surface ice suddenly melted, what would stop life from forming?

What exactly would cause life to form there? I'm sure you know exactly how life is formed, and you can prove it. Your Nobel prize in chemistry awaits!
Perhaps I should restate it: how does the fact that Europa is a sphere preclude the formation of life?
Recommended reading: We Have No Idea by Jorge Cham and Daniel Whiteson

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2018, 09:43:25 PM »
An idea parroted by people who have never once touched the subject of data analysis in their entire lives.
Dude, come on!

http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2018, 03:21:40 PM »
Our largest telescopes can barely make out exoplanets as tiny dots. Do you really think that we'd see aliens?

No, they don't? You're only referring to visible spectrum telescopes trying to visibly look at planets. That's a very shortsighted way of viewing the universe.

Ah, so pirates prevent global warming? Got it.

Do you have evidence they don't? Pirates cut down on shipping lanes, and shipping is by far the largest contributor of CO2. Dismissing a correlation just because you think it's silly is a good way to make you look silly instead.

Perhaps I should restate it: how does the fact that Europa is a sphere preclude the formation of life?

How does it not?

An idea parroted by people who have never once touched the subject of data analysis in their entire lives.
Dude, come on!

http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

And? Have you investigated all of those correlations and concluded that they're 100% unrelated and can't possibly ever be equal? The argument was "correlation =/= causation", which is wrong. Correlation and causation are equal sometimes, and not equal at others. Plainly stating that they are unequal all the time is just a way to show how uneducated you are regarding statistics.

Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2018, 03:29:26 PM »
*sigh*

When people say that Correlation does not equal Causation pretty much everyone understands that to mean that just because there is a Correlation between two sets of data that doesn't mean that they are correlated because one causes the other.

Obviously correlation is a possibility. But not a given because of the correlation.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2018, 03:37:13 PM »
Perhaps I should restate it: how does the fact that Europa is a sphere preclude the formation of life?

How does it not?
Can't come up with a single reason a sphere cannot support life. You're the one claiming it can't, support your claim.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2018, 03:43:53 PM »
*sigh*

When people say that Correlation does not equal Causation pretty much everyone understands that to mean that just because there is a Correlation between two sets of data that doesn't mean that they are correlated because one causes the other.

Obviously correlation is a possibility. But not a given because of the correlation.

Obviously it's not understood as that, given how both of you made extremely poor arguments for the statement in the first place which only go to show a further misunderstanding of the subject.

Perhaps I should restate it: how does the fact that Europa is a sphere preclude the formation of life?

How does it not?
Can't come up with a single reason a sphere cannot support life. You're the one claiming it can't, support your claim.

For what reason does the universe exist? If you cannot answer, then the universe doesn't exist! Very astute argument you have going. Tell me more.

What we know: no spherical body has life on it

What you claim: yeah they totally can have life they just don't

Who is the one that really needs to support a claim here? It isn't me, all the evidence is already in my favor.

Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2018, 03:46:26 PM »
What we know: no spherical body has life on it
Er...I can think of one that does.  :D
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2018, 04:09:27 PM »
Perhaps I should restate it: how does the fact that Europa is a sphere preclude the formation of life?

How does it not?
Can't come up with a single reason a sphere cannot support life. You're the one claiming it can't, support your claim.

For what reason does the universe exist? If you cannot answer, then the universe doesn't exist! Very astute argument you have going. Tell me more.

What we know: no spherical body has life on it

What you claim: yeah they totally can have life they just don't

Who is the one that really needs to support a claim here? It isn't me, all the evidence is already in my favor.
You're claiming there's a reason specifically a spherical body cannot support life. If Earth is a spherical body, it's in the right everything to support life. What would prevent it? What about a planet being spherical stops the ability for it to support life? Even if Earth is flat, what is the difference between a flat body and a spherical body that prevents life from developing upon a spherical body? Your claim is there's something, so what is it?

Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2018, 04:11:32 PM »
Our largest telescopes can barely make out exoplanets as tiny dots. Do you really think that we'd see aliens?

No, they don't? You're only referring to visible spectrum telescopes trying to visibly look at planets. That's a very shortsighted way of viewing the universe.
Then you tell me how, given a round Earth, we could observe extraterrestrial life.
Quote
Ah, so pirates prevent global warming? Got it.
Do you have evidence they don't? Pirates cut down on shipping lanes, and shipping is by far the largest contributor of CO2. Dismissing a correlation just because you think it's silly is a good way to make you look silly instead.
On the other hand, it kinda makes you look silly if you're presented literally a joke correlation and try to take it seriously. Thank you for my new sig quote.

Also, shipping by boat is fairly low-carbon and would have been zero-carbon at the time piracy was widespread.
Quote
Perhaps I should restate it: how does the fact that Europa is a sphere preclude the formation of life?

How does it not?
Because the only thing, as far as I know, precluding life on Europa is that its oceans are frozen. If I hypothetically thaw its oceans and keep it that way for billions of years, why shouldn't life form?

Playing hot potato with the burden of proof does nothing. I am asking you what shape has to do with life.
Quote
An idea parroted by people who have never once touched the subject of data analysis in their entire lives.
Dude, come on!

http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

And? Have you investigated all of those correlations and concluded that they're 100% unrelated and can't possibly ever be equal? The argument was "correlation =/= causation", which is wrong. Correlation and causation are equal sometimes, and not equal at others. Plainly stating that they are unequal all the time is just a way to show how uneducated you are regarding statistics.
The point of that is that it's p-hacking.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2018, 10:53:32 AM »
Outside of the world of mathematics it’s pretty much impossible to prove anything absolutely
That may be your personal epistemology, but I have little interest in philosophy.

There is a reason why in UK courts something must be proven beyond reasonable doubt.
You have 10 witnesses that say that Pete shot Tom in cold blood over a dispute over the FE Wiki. They all claim they saw him.
What if they are all mistaken? It’s possible. Or it was someone who really looks like Pete.
But Pete’s fingerprints are on the gun.
Well, how do you know he didn’t handle the gun earlier in the day then left the gun lying around and someone else shot Tom?
…and so on.
The objections can get increasingly ridiculous but you could always say there’s some doubt. But is the doubt reasonable?
That’s for the jury to decide.
Okay. Let's say I didn't shoot Tom. What does it matter that 10 people claim they saw me (you could easily round up 10 angry RE'ers to say something incriminating about me - some people really dislike me)? If your methodology leads to a false conclusion, then frankly I don't want to hear much about it.

And, of course, we both know that common law systems fail regularly. You have complex issues like jury nullification, the decline of the legal profession which focuses so much in determining bureaucratic legalisms over the spirit of the matter, etc.

Yeah, if you want to view the world as a lawyer, I'm not stopping you, but I'm definitely not coming with you.

In itself it doesn’t prove it, but it does add weight to the likelihood of it being true.
I don't believe I've ever denied it. What I questioned is the circular reasoning of "We should believe NASA because NASA said we should believe them." It's the same as the Bible - the Bible is the infallible word of God because God said so in the Bible. Sorry, that's simply insufficient. To take it back to your Phoenix Wright analogy - me saying that I totally didn't murder Tom, if presented by itself and with no supporting arguments, is not going to be particularly relevant to the case most of the time.

It doesn't automatically make it true but their opinion isn't irrelevant either.
Okay, so basically you've written a whole bunch of paragraphs that boil down to you explicitly agreeing with me. Why do I even bother?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 10:56:01 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2018, 11:43:04 AM »
What I questioned is the circular reasoning of "We should believe NASA because NASA said we should believe them."

I suggest you believe them because they, and others, provide solid evidence for what they say, and that evidence is in a far better form than simple line diagrams and commentary in a hundreds-year old text like ENaG, which seems to be the go-to reference point around here.

Again, why does it always come back to NASA ... ?  The world was proved to be a globe long before they came along.

The first orbital satellite, animal in space, man and woman in space, were all Russian/Soviet accomplishments.

There are multiple other Space Agencies in the world. There are numerous organisations in geodesic and other disciplines unconnected to NASA who also provide solid evidence of the globe.

There's a new satellite launch almost every day, somewhere in the world, by both govt-led space agencies and by independent, commercial operators. There's a satellite industry in most every civilised country on Earth. You can buy/hire your own satellite uplink/downlink truck and test them for yourself, by renting bandwidth on any of many satellites. You can buy/hire a portable satellite rig, such as used by news-gathering teams, and again - test the systems for yourself. You can hire a company like SpaceX to launch satellites for you. You can install your own domestic satellite TV reception kit, and self-align it with multiple satellites. 

70+ years - c'mon, let that sink in - 70+ years of launching satellites into orbit, since Sputnik in 1957.

Eye witnesses to launches. Hundreds of thousands of operational personnel, including designers, builders, operators, etc. Eye witnesses to their progress across the skies, both professional and amateur. Tracking by multiple independent agencies. Use of satellite data by multiple customers and consumers. Eye witnesses to failed satellites burning up on re-entry. Eye-witnesses to a recent satellite, having completed almost two orbits, leaving Earth orbit to head out beyond Mars.

I'm genuinely baffled as to how you can write all this off as .... hoax, conspiracy, whatever way you want to describe it.

In terms of quality and quantity of firm, solid data, it tramples all over ENaG and leaves it wheezing in the dust.
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2018, 11:51:26 AM »
Okay. Let's say I didn't shoot Tom. What does it matter that 10 people claim they saw me (you could easily round up 10 angry RE'ers to say something incriminating about me - some people really dislike me)?

Really? How is that is possible? You are so very charming.

Quote
If your methodology leads to a false conclusion, then frankly I don't want to hear much about it.

Well, the more relevant question is whether there is ANY methodology which CANNOT lead to a false conclusion.
I'd say no, no there isn't.
If you know of one then let's hear it.

The legal process is, in theory, about discerning truth. Inherent in it is the admission that it is imperfect, hence reasonable doubt.
But there is no perfect system and as evidence stacks up for something it becomes less and less reasonable to doubt it.
It might not be a perfect way of determining what is true but it's probably the best we can do.

Can I definitively say that the earth is round? In the truest sense, no. But is there any reasonable doubt? None at all.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 11:52:57 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2018, 01:00:56 PM »
Well, the more relevant question is whether there is ANY methodology which CANNOT lead to a false conclusion.
I don't particularly care - if your methodology leads you to a false conclusion, then I have little interest in it and will pursue alternatives. After all, I'm just exchanging a guaranteed failure for a likely failure.

I suggest you believe them because they, and others, provide solid evidence for what they say, and that evidence is in a far better form than simple line diagrams and commentary in a hundreds-year old text like ENaG, which seems to be the go-to reference point around here.
That's rather quite different from what you said before. You were so adamant that pointing out the BBC quoted them saying these things was important. I propose that it is not. Without trying to run away from the subject, would you care to defend your position?
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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2018, 01:25:46 PM »
I don't particularly care - if your methodology leads you to a false conclusion, then I have little interest in it and will pursue alternatives.
That actually makes sense IF you can demonstrate that your methodology is less likely to lead to a false conclusion or cannot lead to a false conclusion.
Can you?
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis