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Offline Spikily

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Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« on: April 26, 2018, 01:39:04 PM »
So I was asking around and was asked the question, Are other objects in the solar system, like the moon, flat like the earth?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2018, 01:40:32 PM »
No.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline Spikily

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2018, 06:14:31 PM »
Why Though?

Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2018, 07:05:56 PM »
Why Though?
Because other objects are observably non-flat due to a variety of factors, most notably things like the movement of the Great Red Spot on Jupiter.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2018, 08:24:34 PM »
Why Though?

If basketballs are round does that mean the basketball court must be round as well?
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2018, 08:57:45 PM »
Why Though?

If basketballs are round does that mean the basketball court must be round as well?

If all other planets are round, and exhibit the same characteristics as the Earth, in going around the Sun, in having Moons of their own .... why would Earth be flat?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2018, 09:17:06 PM »
Why Though?

If basketballs are round does that mean the basketball court must be round as well?

If all other planets are round, and exhibit the same characteristics as the Earth, in going around the Sun, in having Moons of their own .... why would Earth be flat?

You're right. They must not exhibit the same characteristics as the earth then.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2018, 10:31:57 PM »
You're right. They must not exhibit the same characteristics as the earth then.
Don't they?
Orbit the sun, have their own moons, have atmospheres and seasons and night and day and poles and geology.
There are lots of similarities between earth and the other planets.

There's life here because we are in the "Goldilocks zone" and other planets aren't and maybe we won the cosmic lottery, but fundamentally the inner rocky planets have very similar characteristics.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 07:10:28 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2018, 11:51:30 PM »
You're right. They must not exhibit the same characteristics as the earth then.

But they do. Hundreds upon thousands of astronomers, cosmologists, astrophysicists and the like all agree on this.

Who are you to contradict them?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2018, 08:44:15 AM »
Who are you to contradict them?
A person who doesn't fall for arguments from authority
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2018, 10:25:49 AM »
Who are you to contradict them?
A person who doesn't fall for arguments from authority

The 'authority' in question is/are not some evil subspecies of mankind.

They are/were regular, ordinary folks like you and me, except they've built up experience and knowledge in their field which you have not.

If you wish to correct me on this, and outline your specific qualifications and experience in the field of astronomy, astrophysics, or the like, please do so.

If someone repeatedly quotes from ENaG, are they "arguing from authority", or not?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2018, 11:43:02 AM »
The 'authority' in question is/are not some evil subspecies of mankind.
I don't care. If your argument is "this is true because Big Space Man said so", then your argument is useless.

If someone repeatedly quotes from ENaG, are they "arguing from authority", or not?
No, you've failed to present an analogous situation. If someone repeatedly claim that the Earth is flat because Rowbotham said so, they would be arguing from authority. Explicitly bringing up the work someone has done is not the same.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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<Parsifal> I like looking at Chinese Wikipedia with Noto installed
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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2018, 05:46:44 PM »
Why Though?

I think the problem is people wrongly classify the earth as a planet. So, many assume that if the earth is a planet, it must be the shape of other celestial bodies.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 05:48:44 PM by Pickel B Gravel »
Hi y'all. I am a typical GENIUS girl who does NOT follow the masses and who does NOT blindly accept what is told to me without EVIDENCE. That being said, I don't believe in a lot of "facts" (the quotations mean they're NOT actual facts) including evolution, the holocaust, and the globular earth HYPOTHESIS.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2018, 11:05:45 PM »
The 'authority' in question is/are not some evil subspecies of mankind.
I don't care. If your argument is "this is true because Big Space Man said so", then your argument is useless.

No different from FEer saying "this is true because Big Man Rowbotham said so", surely?

If someone repeatedly quotes from ENaG, are they "arguing from authority", or not?
No, you've failed to present an analogous situation. If someone repeatedly claim that the Earth is flat because Rowbotham said so, they would be arguing from authority. Explicitly bringing up the work someone has done is not the same.

Why bring up his work at all, if it doesn't support the claim of the Earth being flat? If it doesn't support this, what does it support?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2018, 12:19:55 PM »
Why bring up his work at all, if it doesn't support the claim of the Earth being flat? If it doesn't support this, what does it support?
I'm not sure where you got this idea, but given the falsity of your premise, I'll answer your question with a resounding "Yes"
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline ElTrancy

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2018, 05:49:32 PM »
Why Though?

I think the problem is people wrongly classify the earth as a planet. So, many assume that if the earth is a planet, it must be the shape of other celestial bodies.
I'm confused, Earth is not a planet? Alright, give us proof. You say so yourself that you do not accept facts without proof, so please support your claims or nobody will take you seriously. Also, I would like to have a debate about evolution, or the holocaust in a different setting, if possible.
Please fucking launch a mininuke at me, I've become hopelessly lost.

Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2018, 07:43:04 PM »
The 'authority' in question is/are not some evil subspecies of mankind.
I don't care. If your argument is "this is true because Big Space Man said so", then your argument is useless.
Well. Not useless.

During the Brexit debate there was an infamous quote from Gove about people having "had enough of experts",
I think it was in the context of economists who failed to predict various financial crashes so what do they know about the economic impact of Brexit?
Fairly reasonable, I guess. The economy is notoriously complicated difficult to predict. But the general point is not reasonable.

If I go to the doctor with certain symptoms and he says I need an MRI, after he's looked at the results and told me what he thinks is wrong I don't say "Let me look at that..."
I might ask for a second opinion but I'd want that second opinion to come from another medical expert. I don't have the medical knowledge or experience to interpret the results myself.
They do. That's what makes them the experts, or authorities. Doesn't automatically mean they're right, but their training and experience makes their opinion about what is wrong more valid than mine.

When every single serious scientist says that we're living on a planet which shares a lot of common features with the other planets and, like the other planets, is revolving around the sun then it's not irrelevant to the debate.

Could they all be wrong? I suppose it's possible.
But that would also mean that every single space agency is lying to us.
Every rocket launch is faked - in the sense that they don't really go into orbit.
Every photo and piece of film from space is faked.
A load of people are involved in the production of those photos and video and are keeping quiet about it.
Every astronaut is lying.
The space tourists are too.
Sky are lying about my TV signals coming from a satellite, or they are being tricked into thinking they are and the signals are coming from some other source.
GPS also works in a way differently to the way we are led to believe.
The airline and shipping industries are lying or mistaken about the way they plot their routes taking into account the curve of the earth.
And so on.

If there was some serious debate about this in science then fine, appealing to an authority who happens to back up a heliocentric model would be fallacious.
But there isn't. This debate was settled hundreds of years ago and nothing has come to light since which casts any doubt on that.

Pointing that out is not invalid or useless as part of the debate.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2018, 07:25:52 AM »
Pointing that out is not invalid or useless as part of the debate.
It is entirely invalid and useless. The FE position questions whether or not we should believe the "authorities" on the matter. Retorting with "but look at all those things they said!" is pointless unless it comes with an additional qualifier. The FE side has no business that something is false just because NASA said it (although we are guilty of this at times), and the RE side is not going to get anywhere just saying "NASA said so ergo it's true".

By your own admission, this is what sets Gove's infamous quote apart from the issue here. Gove qualified his claims for why we shouldn't trust experts - whether his justification was good or not is another matter entirely, but he didn't just bluntly say "people say x, therefore truth value"
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline hexagon

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2018, 08:45:15 AM »
The reliability of an expert relies on his qualification. And the level to be a scientist is very high. E.g. studying physics is not like learning a foreign language, where you just memorize the new vocabulary and grammar. Studying physics means that you went through all the theories by yourself. You reproduce the proofs, you apply them in different situations, you repeat experiments by yourself and interpret the results. Given the hundred thousands of physics students world-wide every day some important experiment is done again by some, one import law is derived again, again and again. You can not be a scientist by just repeating what someone else said. That's not how it works...   

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2018, 09:12:19 AM »
The FE position questions whether or not we should believe the "authorities" on the matter.

But with the situation today, less and less of those who have the evidence are the "authorities". For just one example, look at SpaceX. Do you regard them as an "authority" figure? If so, why? I see them as an independent, a private company. One that crept  up and quietly subverted the establishment, in at least one aspect of space flight (reusability).

With the equipment available to you and any other flat earther today, you can see things which show you, beyond any doubt, that we have multiple objects in orbital flight around the Earth.

You can observe the ISS for yourself. You see it at particular times because its track is predictable, and the predictions are not based on any kind of FE mechanics or motion

(isstracker, in-the-sky.org, or just google "when will the iss pass over me" or similar...)

You can buy tracking telescopes and software which track the smaller satellites for you. The only reason the tracking software works is that it knows where each satellite will be, because their tracks are predictable. These predictions are not based on any kind of FE mechanics or motion

(Plane Wave Media, or planewavemedia on YouTube for their demonstration videos)

You can buy/rent a satellite uplink truck in practically any civilised country, and a FE friend could receive a downlink from you in another civilised country where they could rent another truck

(google "satellite truck rental {placename}" for the locale in which you want to rent

You can test what the authority says with a small amount of gear, and not much expenditure. Have you tried any of this so far? If not, why not?  Would you be willing to try this in the future? If not, why not?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?