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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2018, 02:02:49 PM »
That actually makes sense IF you can demonstrate that your methodology is less likely to lead to a false conclusion or cannot lead to a false conclusion.
Can you?
I doubt you'll entertain it, but I can certainly try. One of the main reasons the legal system has to rely upon reasonable doubt is that we can't (or at least really don't want to) try to reproduce a murder over and over until we're sure that we reproduced the perfect murder. Even if we take the absurdity of that proposal out of the equation, common law has its benefits when trying to figure out things that happened in the past. The Zetetic approach is that of one who is not concerned much with time. I'm not in a rush, and the Earth is unlikely to suddenly change shapes [or, rather, if it does, I'll have more important concerns to deal with], and outside of some violent individuals sending me the occasional death threat, the Earth being flat has very little impact on my life.

There is no reason for me not to take my time, and to carry on expanding my worldview rather than settling on a false conclusion.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2018, 02:13:23 PM »
That's rather quite different from what you said before. You were so adamant that pointing out the BBC quoted them saying these things was important. I propose that it is not. Without trying to run away from the subject, would you care to defend your position?

I have no recollection of saying or writing this, and a search on the forum for the term "BBC" only brings up your post here. No other posts.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2018, 02:28:10 PM »
I have no recollection of saying or writing this, and a search on the forum for the term "BBC" only brings up your post here. No other posts.
Even the magnificent Pete Svarrior makes mistakes sometimes - I mixed this discussion up with another one, and I mistook you for another avatar-less RE'er with a remarkably similar posting style. My apologies.
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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2018, 03:46:39 PM »
That actually makes sense IF you can demonstrate that your methodology is less likely to lead to a false conclusion or cannot lead to a false conclusion.
Can you?
I doubt you'll entertain it, but I can certainly try. One of the main reasons the legal system has to rely upon reasonable doubt is that we can't (or at least really don't want to) try to reproduce a murder over and over until we're sure that we reproduced the perfect murder. Even if we take the absurdity of that proposal out of the equation, common law has its benefits when trying to figure out things that happened in the past. The Zetetic approach is that of one who is not concerned much with time. I'm not in a rush, and the Earth is unlikely to suddenly change shapes [or, rather, if it does, I'll have more important concerns to deal with], and outside of some violent individuals sending me the occasional death threat, the Earth being flat has very little impact on my life.

There is no reason for me not to take my time, and to carry on expanding my worldview rather than settling on a false conclusion.
Hmm. We need to be careful here because we are on the verge of having a sensible debate.

I do see the difference between trying to determine what has happened and trying to determine the truth about, say, the shape of the earth.
But there are common threads. In order to determine what is true we have to look at evidence. In my example that would be witness testimony, forensic evidence and so on. For something like the shape of the earth that would be experimental data. Observations.

But in both cases the evidence only adds to the probability that the theory is correct. Nothing is definitive in the purest sense.
I've given a whole list of things above that would have to be true in order for the earth to be flat.
Possible? I guess so, again in the purest sense. Plausible in any way? Not remotely.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2018, 04:30:43 PM »
I've given a whole list of things above that would have to be true in order for the earth to be flat.
Possible? I guess so, again in the purest sense. Plausible in any way? Not remotely.
Right, and we've generated similar lists as an argument against the Earth being round. The Wiki page on Occam's Razor is a good example of a mediocre argument (though not one I'm looking to outright remove - enhance, perhaps). I don't like that format, since it doesn't add much to the discussion; or, at the very least, it carries little persuasive power. You and I will probably find different things to be highly implausible.
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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2018, 04:37:01 PM »
Right, and we've generated similar lists as an argument against the Earth being round.
Where can I find one such list? I'd like to debunk it.
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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2018, 05:41:03 PM »
I've given a whole list of things above that would have to be true in order for the earth to be flat.
Possible? I guess so, again in the purest sense. Plausible in any way? Not remotely.
Right, and we've generated similar lists as an argument against the Earth being round. The Wiki page on Occam's Razor is a good example of a mediocre argument (though not one I'm looking to outright remove - enhance, perhaps). I don't like that format, since it doesn't add much to the discussion; or, at the very least, it carries little persuasive power. You and I will probably find different things to be highly implausible.
The Occam's Razor page is weak. If you want me to go through it then I can but as you say, it's not based on observations, it's just saying "wow, NASA claim to be able to send rockets into space, I don't believe that's possible so isn't it simpler to think they can't?". I mean, what kind of argument is that?! It's too subjective.
If you can point me in the direction of a better link then I'd like to have a look.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2018, 06:41:18 PM »
It's just something I've seen come up in discussion before. As I said, it's not an argument format that I consider particularly useful or interesting, so I didn't exactly make any effort to take note of it.
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Offline Spycrab

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2018, 10:04:00 PM »
Well it's a matter of phrasing. It can swing both ways. e.g.

Is the earth stationary and unmoving with an invisible dome and tyrannical secret government lying to the masses about the earth's shape in a desperate attempt to get money from taxpayers by making them think it is for a space program, constantly fabricating photos to keep up the illusion, compounded by multiple illusions and a bizarre set of rules for perspective, or is the earth round and life goes on as normal?

Is the earth a speck in the infinite cosmos spinning around a burning ball of plasma that is one of an infinite number that are all in turn spinning around impossibly large galaxies, that there are also an infinite number of, and 95% of all that is invisible, but still has mass, and the earth is indeed a sphere but it is too big to see the roundness, and the sun doesn't orbit us, it just looks like it does, or is the earth flat like it looks like it is?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2018, 05:14:14 AM »
I've given a whole list of things above that would have to be true in order for the earth to be flat.
Possible? I guess so, again in the purest sense. Plausible in any way? Not remotely.
Right, and we've generated similar lists as an argument against the Earth being round. The Wiki page on Occam's Razor is a good example of a mediocre argument (though not one I'm looking to outright remove - enhance, perhaps). I don't like that format, since it doesn't add much to the discussion; or, at the very least, it carries little persuasive power. You and I will probably find different things to be highly implausible.
The Occam's Razor page is weak. If you want me to go through it then I can but as you say, it's not based on observations, it's just saying "wow, NASA claim to be able to send rockets into space, I don't believe that's possible so isn't it simpler to think they can't?". I mean, what kind of argument is that?! It's too subjective.
If you can point me in the direction of a better link then I'd like to have a look.

You may not like it, but the conclusions in the Occam's Razor page in our Wiki are the simplest explanations.
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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2018, 07:15:52 AM »
It's just something I've seen come up in discussion before. As I said, it's not an argument format that I consider particularly useful or interesting, so I didn't exactly make any effort to take note of it.
How convenient.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2018, 10:53:58 AM »
How convenient.
I agree - it would be very inconvenient for me to memorise every discussion I've participated in over the past decade or so, just so I can respond to every request from some guy with entitlement issues.

Seriously, though? You're going to pull this shit when I'm making a point against FE'ers? Are you so desperate on pulling a "gotcha"?

Well it's a matter of phrasing. It can swing both ways.
That's certainly part of the problem. Either side can make a "well duh!" non-argument to support their position, but the conversation will never go anywhere.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 10:57:12 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2018, 01:04:01 PM »
You may not like it, but the conclusions in the Occam's Razor page in our Wiki are the simplest explanations.
And the only things wrong with that are

1) Simplest is subjective. There is no objective "simplometer" you can use to determine which is the simplest.
2) That page has been written with a FE slant, so of course you make it sound like your explanation is the simplest.
3) Occam's razor is not a fundamental law of the universe, it's just a guideline.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2018, 12:39:11 AM »
3) Occam's razor is not a fundamental law of the universe, it's just a guideline.
While I disagree with Tom on other points, he has you dead to rights here. Occam's Razor is an extremely common principle in the scientific method. And, as you pointed out yourself, it is deeply flawed and can't serve as anything more than an informal guideline. This is just one of many ways in which the Zetetic method is superior.
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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2018, 07:18:43 AM »
Occam's razor isn't hard baked into the scientific method, it is just a guideline. If it were then we wouldn't have Relativity or Quantum Theory which may be many things but simple isn't one of them. If you agree it is flawed in the sense that it is not some universal law that the simplest explanation is always the correct one then why do you have a Wiki page about it (which honestly isn't well written, you can write a page like that to back up any idea if you word it in the right way). More work on the Wiki?
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2018, 07:32:02 AM »
Occam's razor isn't hard baked into the scientific method, it is just a guideline. If it were then we wouldn't have Relativity or Quantum Theory which may be many things but simple isn't one of them. If you agree it is flawed in the sense that it is not some universal law that the simplest explanation is always the correct one then why do you have a Wiki page about it (which honestly isn't well written, you can write a page like that to back up any idea if you word it in the right way). More work on the Wiki?

The page is a response to the "Occam's Razor shows that you are wrong" posts we regularly receive.

Where does the page assert that the simplest explanation is the correct explanation? That is something you have entirely made up. Universal rule? Correct? Who said any of that? The page is merely determining the simplest explanation.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2018, 09:03:26 AM »
(which honestly isn't well written, you can write a page like that to back up any idea if you word it in the right way). More work on the Wiki?
Please stop doing this. I opened this conversation by bringing up the page and saying it needs work. I'm glad you agree, but don't phrase it as a suggestion.
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Offline isaacN

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2018, 03:33:04 PM »
3) Occam's razor is not a fundamental law of the universe, it's just a guideline.
While I disagree with Tom on other points, he has you dead to rights here. Occam's Razor is an extremely common principle in the scientific method. And, as you pointed out yourself, it is deeply flawed and can't serve as anything more than an informal guideline. This is just one of many ways in which the Zetetic method is superior.

While the scientific method has brought about every discovery that has led to the modern world, with countless scientific break throughs and discoveries, im strugling to find one discovery that has been made by the Zetetic method that has benefited society. Bearing that in mind, on what basis are you making the claim that the Zetetic is superiour, i would really like to understand your reasoning.

Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2018, 03:37:36 PM »
Occam's razor isn't hard baked into the scientific method, it is just a guideline. If it were then we wouldn't have Relativity or Quantum Theory which may be many things but simple isn't one of them. If you agree it is flawed in the sense that it is not some universal law that the simplest explanation is always the correct one then why do you have a Wiki page about it (which honestly isn't well written, you can write a page like that to back up any idea if you word it in the right way). More work on the Wiki?

The page is a response to the "Occam's Razor shows that you are wrong" posts we regularly receive.

Where does the page assert that the simplest explanation is the correct explanation? That is something you have entirely made up. Universal rule? Correct? Who said any of that? The page is merely determining the simplest explanation.
But it's not. You need to use Occam's Razor correctly, which in this context isn't 'the simplest explanation' but closer to 'which makes the least amount of assumptions' to which I would argue it is FE that makes more assumptions. Occam's Razor, in the scientific community, tends to be about a preference towards empirical explanation/observations as those are the simplest. The ones involving your senses. In that vein, Occam's Razor is very much a core part of Zeteticism as well. When applied to hypotheticals and similar, it's closer to asking the least amount of assumptions. Which, as far as NASA is concerned, I haven't been able to come up with how FE makes less assumptions.

Offline isaacN

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Re: Are other objects in the Solar System Flat as well?
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2018, 03:42:33 PM »
No.

How can you be so sure of this? On what data are you basing your answer on?