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Offline Tumeni

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2018, 08:50:09 AM »
"NASA said so" is a particularly low standard of evidence.

No worse than "Rowbotham said so" ...
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline AATW

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2018, 09:12:23 AM »
]We did exactly what you and your kind requested of us - admitted that the reasoning was poor and not representative of FE thought, and removed it until it gets properly rewritten

The reasoning IS poor but it is fairly representative of FE thought - on here, anyway.
I certainly didn't request you to remove it, it was a perfectly honest page and explains the sort of reasoning I see on here.
Witness Tom's reaction to the boat and laser experiment. It shows him wrong, so it's fake. He spent 2 days trying to misunderstand it and raising one spurious objection after another. Then when he finally understood it he just declared it fake anyway. It contradicts what he believes so it has to be. No evidence needed.
There there's the multiple different experiments showing horizon dip at altitude. He explains them all away in different, spurious ways and it's notable that he has made no effort to do any experiments himself. Some empiricist he is.

The reaction to this "live stream" and the "Tesla in space" is similar. Has any flat earther done anything to determine whether these might be real? Because if they are then this would have to completely change your world view. Is it possible these things are faked? Technically I'd say it probably is these days. I mean, the launch clearly happened, there are too many witnesses for you to sensibly claim it didn't happen at all. But the technology probably exists to fake the footage. Do you have any evidence of that? If not then it's just denial and it's perfectly summed up by that Wiki page.

I'm not "holding it over your head" but I think it's fair game to bring it up when I see that sort of reasoning going on, and I see it a lot on here.
Maybe not every flat earther thinks this way but it's the sort of mindset I absolutely see regularly from the more prominent flat earthers on here.

The part about declaring the flat earth an obvious truth I'd concede I've not seen anyone on here say that. But the bit about denying any evidence which contradicts a flat earth is exactly what flat earthers on here do. So maybe a more accurate statement would be:

Quote
If personally unverifiable evidence contradicts a flat earth then the evidence is fabricated

The flat earth is true, in your minds, so anything which contradicts that must be false and you don't seem to feel the need to provide any evidence for that.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2018, 12:01:00 PM »
The word is spelled correctly (did you click the link?). My error was in using the wrong tense, thus it was a grammatical error not a spelling error.
The tense was rather clear in the context. I strongly suspect that you simply failed to spell it correctly, and your spell-checker didn't catch it because it would be a valid spelling in other tenses. That said, if it wasn't a typo and you actually consciously used the wrong tense, that only makes your failure more pronounced - why would you want to highlight that?

I gathered from follow up posts that you believe the footage to be CGI
I don't think I've said that, and if I did, it most certainly was not my intention.

"NASA said so" is a particularly low standard of evidence.

No worse than "Rowbotham said so" ...
Which, as you may recall, I consider to be a crappy argument.

If someone repeatedly claim that the Earth is flat because Rowbotham said so, they would be arguing from authority.

What is it with you people and repeating things I already said, as if they were somehow novel additions to the discussion?

I certainly didn't request you to remove it, it was a perfectly honest page and explains the sort of reasoning I see on here.
The deletion happened when you brought this up with me, and the responses in the thread appear to reflect RE'ers' desire for action to be taken.

You were also disappointed when it was taking me a while to do anything about it:

It's pretty much summed up on this Wiki page (which even Pete admitted is strange and he would look into, it's still there though)

Please, at least try to remain internally consistent. A few of you convinced me to look into this, and I decided in your favour. You're welcome, by the way.

The reaction to this "live stream" and the "Tesla in space" is similar. Has any flat earther done anything to determine whether these might be real?
Yes, and the answer is: they might.

Because if they are then this would have to completely change your world view.
Not really - it would just lend more credence to some models.

Do you have any evidence of that? If not then it's just denial and it's perfectly summed up by that Wiki page.
There is no relation between the logic in the former Wiki page and your perceived lack of evidence of the Conspiracy.

I'm not "holding it over your head"
You are, and I would ask you to do the polite thing and stop. Trying to force arguments that someone has made previously and then withdrew is not a good thing. Again, if I did this, I'd be repeatedly asking you whether you think Texas and Japan are the same place (because someone made that mistake once). But that's not how things work. We move on from past failures, and focus on the present.

Maybe not every flat earther thinks this way but it's the sort of mindset I absolutely see regularly from the more prominent flat earthers on here.

The part about declaring the flat earth an obvious truth I'd concede I've not seen anyone on here say that.
Yes - you haven't seen one of the core assumptions of the "proof". That's why it's no longer there. In fact, I needed to search for references to that page prior to writing here, just to make sure I've got my facts straight. Turns out it's almost exclusively you who brings it up. Quelle surprise.

But the bit about denying any evidence which contradicts a flat earth is exactly what flat earthers on here do.
You're welcome to your own opinion, just don't try to argue it by dishonestly bringing up retracted claims out of context. Alternatively, don't be surprised if people choose not to engage you in discussion. Nobody likes a liar.

The reasoning IS poor but it is fairly representative of FE thought - on here, anyway.
I can't recall a single FE'er who spoke in favour of that page. Your argument is unsubstantiated, other than you repeatedly shouting that FE'ers totally think this way. If you want to just decide what our thinking is, what's the point in discussion? You already know the answers. Grab a beer and a mirror, and discuss with yourself.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline AATW

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2018, 01:20:33 PM »
The deletion happened when you brought this up with me, and the responses in the thread appear to reflect RE'ers' desire for action to be taken.

I brought it up in a conversation about the way you guys think. It's a generalisation, obviously, but I see it a lot on here.
The line of thinking is: "The earth is flat, ergo everything which shows it not to be must be fake". They don't seem to feel the need to provide any evidence for that.
You were the one who said that you thought that was a strange page and said you would investigate.
I did not ask you to, neither did I comment that I thought you should. Others did but I can't speak for them.
For me the Wiki page showed poor reasoning but it is the sort of reasoning I see from flat earthers on here.

I commented on the fact that you hadn't removed the page, I didn't say I was disappointed about that.
I didn't "convince" you to look into it, I didn't ask you to look into it.

You have a nerve implying I'm lying about things when you say stuff like that which is demonstrably not true.

That said, I will stop referencing that Wiki page as you have deleted it.
But when I see people using this sort of reasoning:
Starting with the premise of a flat earth and then declaring evidence which shows that wrong to be false with no basis
I am going to call them out on it.

It is not my opinion that some people on here do that. I'm not repeatedly shouting that they think that way with no basis. They absolutely do and in my previous post I gave some examples of that which I see you have not commented on. Whether any FE person spoke on favour of that page is irrelevant. The examples of that kind of thinking are there for all to see.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline jcks

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2018, 01:38:28 PM »
The tense was rather clear in the context.

No it wasn't. That's why you pointed it out as an error and I acknowledged it.

I strongly suspect that you simply failed to spell it correctly

and your spell-checker didn't catch it because it would be a valid spelling in other tenses.

Wow, it's like I don't even have to try!

That said, if it wasn't a typo and you actually consciously used the wrong tense, that only makes your failure more pronounced - why would you want to highlight that?

Because it's possible that it was auto corrected on my phone to use present tense and I never gave it a second pass? I'm not sure what you're looking for here but we're getting off topic.

I gathered from follow up posts that you believe the footage to be CGI
I don't think I've said that, and if I did, it most certainly was not my intention.

Yes which is why the rest of my sentence is important.

Quote
...but I'd rather not assume and get a straight answer from you.

Now for my unanswered question in my last post.

Cool, what about the other two quotes?

Please respond.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2018, 06:23:44 PM »
I strongly suspect that you simply failed to spell it correctly

and your spell-checker didn't catch it because it would be a valid spelling in other tenses.
Congratulations, you where truly able to prove you're point with that one. After all, a spelling mistake can't be a spelling mistake if it accidentally formed another existent word. That would be mad.

Wow, it's like I don't even have to try!
You'd certainly do better not to - you seem very intent on making yourself look bad, and that's... well... not a good thing.

Because it's possible that it was auto corrected on my phone to use present tense and I never gave it a second pass?
That is certainly possible, and is fairly close to my original prediction. I'm still not sure why you'd try to make yourself look less educated by asserting that it was a grammatical error, rather than a simple overlooking. We're all human, you know.

Cool, what about the other two quotes?

Please respond.
"Oh, you didn't like my first argument from authority? But what about the other two arguments from authority that I also made?" - Yes, congratulations. The same criticism applies.

That said, I will stop referencing that Wiki page as you have deleted it.
Thanks. It's a shame I didn't get a full admission and an apology out of you, but as long as you stop being dishonest about this, I'm sure we can put your little faux pas to one side.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 06:27:23 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline jcks

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2018, 07:53:22 PM »
After all, a spelling mistake can't be a spelling mistake if it accidentally formed another existent word. That would be mad.

Correct. That would just be incorrect usage of the word or incorrect verb tense (a grammatical error).

You'd certainly do better not to - you seem very intent on making yourself look bad, and that's... well... not a good thing.

No you're just stuck in the past on this one.

Remember this?

Quote
But that's not how things work. We move on from past failures, and focus on the present.

That is certainly possible, and is fairly close to my original prediction. I'm still not sure why you'd try to make yourself look less educated by asserting that it was a grammatical error, rather than a simple overlooking. We're all human, you know.

A grammatical error is a grammatical error regardless of how it happened. Instead making excuses I acknowledged the issue and moved on. However, you seem desperate to use this as a way to discredit me or something.

"Oh, you didn't like my first argument from authority? But what about the other two arguments from authority that I also made?" - Yes, congratulations. The same criticism applies.

You do realize this came from your source right?

You asked how I could verify the footage was real. I pointed to examples in your source where the original video was identified.

Are you saying that those aren't the original videos?

Offline isaacN

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2018, 09:13:36 PM »
mislead
If you're going to nitpick over words, can you please at least spell them correctly?

Look - I get it. You don't like that I used the word "fake", and I did use it somewhat facetiously. I also provided ample clarification of what was meant. If your only issue is that you'd rather use a different word, rest assured that I won't stop you from using it - but I'll also disregard your preference in my own writing.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37778973

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Nasa has confirmed to the BBC that this is not live video from the International Space Station and said it must be old spacewalk video footage.

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It appears that at least part of the the video broadcast on Viral USA was filmed by astronaut Terry Virts during a spacewalk in February 2015.

Quote
While the footage on the Unilad Facebook page appears to come from a spacewalk by Russian cosmonauts in 2013.
"NASA said so" is a particularly low standard of evidence.

I think thats a bit unnecessary pointing out his spelling mistakes, when your own mistakes of logic are far more serious. While Im not a great fan of the bible i really like the story of the plank and the grain of sawdust as it perfectly desccribey your own situation quite nicely.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2018, 10:25:24 PM »
You do realize this came from your source right?
I don't see how this is relevant. I'm not disagreeing with the article - these organisations most likely said what the BBC claims they said. That doesn't magically make it an insurmountable truth.
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Offline jcks

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2018, 12:15:10 AM »
You do realize this came from your source right?
I don't see how this is relevant. I'm not disagreeing with the article - these organisations most likely said what the BBC claims they said. That doesn't magically make it an insurmountable truth.

So you when claim that the live stream is "fake" based on information from your source it is evidence. When I cite the same source using the same information as evidence for the validity of footage for said "fake" stream it is an appeal to authority.

Got it.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2018, 10:19:22 PM »
Got it.
No, you didn't get it at all. We know that not even NASA claims for this particular stream to be real. This doesn't magically make everything NASA says true, it just uncovers an inconsistency in the OP and your consequent attempts at devil's advocacy.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline jcks

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2018, 10:40:35 PM »
Got it.
No, you didn't get it at all. We know that not even NASA claims for this particular stream to be real. This doesn't magically make everything NASA says true, it just uncovers an inconsistency in the OP and your consequent attempts at devil's advocacy.

It's unfortunate that you saw the word NASA and decided ignore the rest of the quotes I posted, instead grouping them all under the "NASA is unreliable" umbrella. You should reread those quotes and tell me where the last two came from (hint: not NASA).

Offline isaacN

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #72 on: May 11, 2018, 07:27:10 AM »
Got it.
No, you didn't get it at all. We know that not even NASA claims for this particular stream to be real. This doesn't magically make everything NASA says true, it just uncovers an inconsistency in the OP and your consequent attempts at devil's advocacy.

You want NASA live tv here it is;
https://www.nasa.gov/nasalive
Are you claiming all these, past and future broadcasts are all fake?
If so that’s one hell of a conspiracy!
For example, take the recent launch of the Mars mission.
According to you they would have to have ,faked the design and manufacture of the lander, faked the televised launch, and will have to fake all the data it will stream back to Earth when it eventually lands!
According to you NASA’s fake factory must be one of the world’s largest industries, given all their other space missions along with Hubble and other images!
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 07:33:00 AM by isaacN »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2018, 02:25:55 PM »
You want NASA live tv here it is;
https://www.nasa.gov/nasalive
Yes, I already provided a link at the start of this thread. What is it with you people repeating my points and acting as if they were novel?

Are you claiming all these, past and future broadcasts are all fake?
No. I've made my position on this clear too many times, including smack dab on the front page of this website. Instead of putting words in my mouth, try and read some of our content.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline isaacN

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2018, 03:01:02 PM »
You want NASA live tv here it is;
https://www.nasa.gov/nasalive
Yes, I already provided a link at the start of this thread. What is it with you people repeating my points and acting as if they were novel?

Are you claiming all these, past and future broadcasts are all fake?
No. I've made my position on this clear too many times, including smack dab on the front page of this website. Instead of putting words in my mouth, try and read some of our content.

My link had you looked was a different one! though in the context of the debate its a pretty minor point of no consequence given your acusation. The question at hand is regarding the reality of the output of NASA vs the validity of your claims that it is all faked, thats the real question, and one that you constantly evade by picking on irrelevent points such as spelling and links.

It would be helpful if you could provide some evidence that at least attemts to prove all the output from NASA is fake rather than us just relying on your say so. We know for a fact that all the launches did indeed take place as there is plenty of corrobarative evidence to support them, such as live broadcasts etc, unlike your evidence which so far is non-existent. There is also a financial paper trail from all the hundreds/ thousands of organisations and companies involved in the design and manufacture of all the hardware/software used.
By all means have a differing position in a debate, but at least make some effort to justify and robustly back up your claim rather than simply resorting to snippy comments relating to spelling or duplicated links.

This is a serious question you are raising that has massive implications. Saying all the NASA missions are fake and all the data they have published over the years relating to our solar system and the universe is a giant scam, is huge, consequently your evidence to back up your claims also needs to be huge. So far Ive seen no evidence from yourself or any other flat earther that meets that criteria. Much more is required from you other than just a hollow conspiracy, which after reading your,  pretty thin to say the least, Wiki is all you currently have.


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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #75 on: May 11, 2018, 03:26:05 PM »
minor point of no consequence given your acusation
What accusation?
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline isaacN

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #76 on: May 11, 2018, 06:55:59 PM »
minor point of no consequence given your acusation
What accusation?

I think thats called evasion, and as far as this forum is concerned does it not constitute low content posting.
I think you know exactly what i was referring to, but you chose, rather than defend your position, to evade and avoid. That suggests to me that you have no answer to my question, is that the case?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #77 on: May 11, 2018, 06:59:04 PM »
I think you know exactly what i was referring to
No, I don't. That's why I asked you to clarify. I don't believe I've made any accusations in this thread.

minor point of no consequence given your acusation
Do not discuss moderation in the middle of a thread. If you believe that I've done something wrong, report the post to moderators - they'll look into it and set me straight if need be.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline isaacN

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #78 on: May 11, 2018, 07:07:17 PM »
I think you know exactly what i was referring to
No, I don't. That's why I asked you to clarify. I don't believe I've made any accusations in this thread.

minor point of no consequence given your acusation
Do not discuss moderation in the middle of a thread. If you believe that I've done something wrong, report the post to moderators - they'll look into it and set me straight if need be.

Well lets start with an easy one to establish where you stand.
Though not a live stream, Hubble images are an output from NASA that are made freely avaiable to the public, in fact the RAW data is made avaiable so that those members of the public who wish to process their own images via, a RAW converter photoshop plugin, can do so. Is it your position that all the online images and data that have been produced by Hubble are fake, or do you belive them to be genuine?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2018, 07:10:50 PM »
Is it your position that all the online images and data that have been produced by Hubble are fake, or do you belive them to be genuine?
I do not hold a strong position either way.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

If we are not speculating then we must assume