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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2018, 02:16:55 AM »
All those photos are of flares. But if you use a filter you can take a picture of the actual light source. Which is what has been done above with the photos I showed you.

Can you find a picture of a light source which maintains its apparent size when moving into the distance that isn't due to flare?

That's what you'd need to put forward to support this.

The effects in Georgii Shipin's gallery (https://www.shutterstock.com/g/georgiishipin?searchterm=light) are due to an effect of camera focusing and aperture, not flares. We did talk about it at one point. Diffusion scattering or some such. I will see if I can find those old discussions.

I do find it remarkable for light sources to maintain their size, no matter how far away they are.
You are correct in that light sources never quite maintain their angular size as they move away.
For distant objects angular size is simply size/distance. It is usually expressed in degrees and then is close enough to size/(57 x distance).
For example using Globe figures, the moon's distance averages about 384,400 km and the earth's equatorial radius is 6378 km.
When the moon is rising or setting (over the Globe) the distance from the viewer is simply the 384,400 km but if directly overhead it is closer by the earth's equatorial radius of 6378 km.
Hence the moon should appear about 1.7% larger when directly.
This is not noticeable, especially as there is rarely any nearby visual reference. The difference is even less if the moon is not directly overhead.

And the sun, at about 149 million km, is so far away that even astronomers cannot measure the distance using simple parallax with any baseline on earth.
Here the change in size change is only about 0.004% and totally imperceptible.

The sun and moon on any current flat earth model are, of course, a completely different story. In that case the distance may change by a factor of three or more, hence the problem.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
It does suggest that the mechanism in Earth Not a Globe may be possible if this same sort of mechanism could occur in the atmosphere, which at times in contemporary literature is described as acting like a lens in some ways.
Lens flare (probably really just very gross overexposure) can certainly make the sun seem larger than it is when well above the horizon, making it appear to shrink as it loses brightness as it approaches the horizon.
Observations of the moon have no such problem, though it still quite possible to overexpose a photo the moon. The full moon is a very bright object.

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2018, 11:07:21 AM »

I do find it remarkable for light sources to maintain their size, no matter how far away they are.


Really?

Suns diameter varies from 32.6 arc minutes To 31.4 arc minutes throughout the year.

If a light source (sun) does not get smaller the further or closer it is, why the change in the measurable diameter of the sun?

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2018, 08:21:59 PM »

I do find it remarkable for light sources to maintain their size, no matter how far away they are.


Really?

Suns diameter varies from 32.6 arc minutes To 31.4 arc minutes throughout the year.

If a light source (sun) does not get smaller the further or closer it is, why the change in the measurable diameter of the sun?

Some of those lights in that gallery do get slightly bigger when they get too close to the camera. Otherwise they seem to be all the same size stretching into the distance. It appears to be purely a far field effect. I imagine that if one of those lights were one inch from the camera lens that it would look a lot bigger than when in the far field.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2018, 10:19:01 PM »

I do find it remarkable for light sources to maintain their size, no matter how far away they are.


Really?

Suns diameter varies from 32.6 arc minutes To 31.4 arc minutes throughout the year.

If a light source (sun) does not get smaller the further or closer it is, why the change in the measurable diameter of the sun?

Some of those lights in that gallery do get slightly bigger when they get too close to the camera. Otherwise they seem to be all the same size stretching into the distance. It appears to be purely a far field effect. I imagine that if one of those lights were one inch from the camera lens that it would look a lot bigger than when in the far field.

So light source size does change then? At what distance does this “far field” effect happen? You will be able to provide tables and evidence as well as a formula for calculating this?

Or does “seem to” constitute proof?

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2018, 12:05:10 AM »
Using a solar filter, eliminating "flare" and not artistically playing with depth of field as that photographer has done, I can, for the purpose of proper angular size measurement/observation, make it so that the sun is not subject to the optical effects of the terrestrial lights in these photographs. Those photographs are not a fair analogy. See my images on the first page of this topic.


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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2018, 10:27:02 PM »
Using a solar filter, eliminating "flare" and not artistically playing with depth of field as that photographer has done, I can, for the purpose of proper angular size measurement/observation, make it so that the sun is not subject to the optical effects of the terrestrial lights in these photographs. Those photographs are not a fair analogy. See my images on the first page of this topic.
;) Who needs a solar filter ;)? Not I when I get a nice mist this morning that makes possible nice sharp photos of the sun just above the horizon.

30th of May 2018 at 06:43 Elev 2.0° Azm 64.1° size 0.54° x 0.50°
I don't think there's any "magnification effect caused by the intense rays of light passing through the strata of the atmolayer" though there is about 8% vertical shrinking due to refraction.

And just to show the elevation:

30th of May 2018 at 06:44 Elev 2.2° Azm 64.1°

Max_Almond

Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2018, 02:30:06 AM »
Surely this has been put to bed?

Everyone agrees, right, that the sun doesn't significantly change size during the day - and therefore doesn't significantly change its distance from any particular observer.

The sun as proposed by the Flat Earth Society, which travels towards and away from each observer, therefore, is impossible.

Offline hexagon

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2018, 08:27:33 AM »
The lights in this gallery above get bigger because of blurriness. People used a lens with low depth of field and focused on something in the foreground. Photographers call this effect "bokeh", which is Japanese for "blurry".

I also would suggest to have a look into an optics book to inform oneself what the expression "far field" means... 

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2018, 05:04:22 PM »
What's happening here?




Where's the true horizon?
Are those waves?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2018, 10:36:17 PM »
Wanted to post an interesting picture of the setting sun, taken last week (not by me) from the Del Mar Fairgrounds during an evening of the San Diego County Fair.



Lots going on in this photo: mirage, compression, diffusion, refraction...makes for a beautiful and unusual sunset.


(Yikes. Originally posted this without the photo.)

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2018, 12:38:25 AM »
A very unusual sunset seen from San Diego last night.



Not just a green flash, but it's inverted.

Earthman

Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2018, 01:13:35 AM »
Flat Earth Sunset - Impossible on a Globe Earth :)


Earthman

Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2018, 01:30:06 AM »
Wanted to post an interesting picture of the setting sun, taken last week (not by me) from the Del Mar Fairgrounds during an evening of the San Diego County Fair.



Lots going on in this photo: mirage, compression, diffusion, refraction...makes for a beautiful and unusual sunset.


(Yikes. Originally posted this without the photo.)

Wow, what a wonderful Sunset over the Curvizon. Look at that beautiful curve. I just can't understanding why flat earthers believe the oceans are horizontal.

Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2018, 01:42:24 AM »
Flat Earth Sunset - Impossible on a Globe Earth :)


The picture quality is so bad here it's impossible to tell what's even happening in this video. If I had to hazard a guess the sun appears to be sinking behind large amounts of clouds gathered on the horizon, giving the effect of the 'point' of the sun steadily shrinking? Failing to see what's so impossible about that, but again I can't even tell what's going on here for sure to begin with.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2018, 02:37:08 AM »
Flat Earth Sunset - Impossible on a Globe Earth :)

That *does* more closely represent what I think a sunset on a flat earth* would look like, although I'd expect it to slow it's apparent descent and never get that low before "winking" out, either due to distance or some spotlight effect.

In my world, sunsets I've seen behave more like this (4 minutes in real time; 40 seconds sped up)



This is from last Spring. No lens filter. Exposure and atmospheric conditions provided the filter to knock down the glare so we see the sun at its actual size throughout.

And here's a rough one (in real time this time) from just the other night, experimenting with a telescope + iPhone. No filter.



*Note: A flat earth without electromagnetic accelerator, that is.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 03:28:24 AM by Bobby Shafto »