The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Bobby Shafto on April 23, 2018, 08:15:25 PM

Title: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on April 23, 2018, 08:15:25 PM
I thought it would be more appropriate to find an existing topic thread and inject some information into this well-worn topic, but when I tried I received a caution that due to the age and dormancy of the old topic, I might be advised to start a new one. But seeing as this is my first post on this board, I hope I'm not breaking any rules by starting a new topic is a post count of 0.  (I've been posting recently as "Yib" on another flat earth community's forum.)

I've been intrigued by what I would expect the sun to look like as it traversed the sky if the current flat earth visualization was a good model. Like most skeptics of the flat earth model, I feel that I should be able to see a marked difference in the sun's apparent size (width/diameter) from when it is at the highest point of elevation compared to when it is receded into the distance, low in elevation.

There's a video (who's source I can't identify) on YouTube showing a sunset, presumably in the Middle East, that DOES give the appearance I would expect of a diminishing sun as it recedes toward a horizon. But I've never personally seen a sunset like that. By my unmeasured eye, I feel like I see a sun sphere that's basically the same at low altitude as it is at high altitude, and it doesn't diminish to a vanishing point but becomes an obscured circle/sphere, as if over an edge.

So, "is that an illusion?" I ask myself. I've read the wiki(s) that propose a magnification explanation for why the sun doesn't diminish in apparent size as it sets towards the "conversion zone" of the horizon. Yet there are also videos by defenders of the current flat earth model attempting to verify that the sun DOES diminish in size as it "sets" into a vanishing plane/convergence zone.  So, does it or doesn't it?

Yesterday (Sunday, April 22nd 2018) I took some photographs of the sun and tried to be as careful as possible to avoid introducing aspects that would change the angular perspective of the sun. I included a solar filter and exposure settings to reduce the glare of the sun so that I could see its boundary. Using the same focal length for all photographs throughout the day, same resolution, same field of view, and without altering the photographs, it didn't matter whether the sun was at its closest point to my location (San Diego at 69° elevation due south) or 10 minutes to scheduled sunset (1½° elevation to the west). My measurements of the sun's pixel size from every test point was 605px +/- 5 pixels, the variance being due to precision error in where to choose the edge from which to measure.

The consistent size can't be akin to glare or lost focus since I accounted for that. The atmosphere, itself, acts as a filter as the sun's elevation drops and the intensity of the light is diminished. But if that's where magnification due to water vapor begins to take effect, it didn't seem to have a magnifying effect, unless it is perfectly synchronized to maintain a constant angular diameter of the sun until refractive elements take hold at around 1-2°. Only then, at less than 2°, did the circle of the sun start to become distorted, as it got "squashed" and its edge boundaries more irregular. However, it's horizontal width didn't change.

Even with some magnification, I would only expect it to reduce the rate of change, maybe, so that the evening sun might be larger than expected, but nevertheless smaller than the sun at solar noon. But that didn't happen.

I posted this on another forum, but didn't receive any feedback other than from those inclined to already agree with me. I'd appreciate a critical, contrary review. I can either re-post my data and observations, or provide a link to where they are posted.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Devils Advocate on April 23, 2018, 08:23:19 PM
Hi Bobby Shafto, I like your post, please can you upload the photos you mentioned as it was add the evidence factor, cheers  :-)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on April 23, 2018, 08:52:13 PM
...please can you upload the photos you mentioned as it was add the evidence factor, cheers  :-)
Might be less cluttering if I just provide links rather than in-lining the images.

Here's a table of the local time of each photograph, sun's elevation at time of photo and my measurement of resulting sun image.
TIME  | EL  | Width
09:25 | 40° | 607px
12:50 | 69° | 603px
15:45 | 45° | 608px
17:10 | 26° | 601px
17:45 | 20° | 610px
18:35 | 09° | 604px
18:55 | 05° | 604px
19:05 | 03° | 600px
19:15 | 1.5°| 601px
19:18 | 0.8°| 609px

And the photos. (These are cropped and annotated, but otherwise unedited. The sun image is unaltered from the original. If anyone needs to see the originals, with the encoded time/date and exposure settings, I can make those available too.)

1. http://oi66.tinypic.com/2ly5suh.jpg (http://oi66.tinypic.com/2ly5suh.jpg)
2. http://oi66.tinypic.com/w7bf48.jpg (http://oi66.tinypic.com/w7bf48.jpg)
3. http://oi67.tinypic.com/j9yi2w.jpg (http://oi67.tinypic.com/j9yi2w.jpg)
4. http://oi66.tinypic.com/21dk748.jpg (http://oi66.tinypic.com/21dk748.jpg)
5. http://oi65.tinypic.com/rrl56x.jpg (http://oi65.tinypic.com/rrl56x.jpg)
6. http://oi65.tinypic.com/25tuqna.jpg (http://oi65.tinypic.com/25tuqna.jpg)
7. http://oi68.tinypic.com/2emn8kw.jpg (http://oi68.tinypic.com/2emn8kw.jpg)
8. http://oi64.tinypic.com/2195507.jpg (http://oi64.tinypic.com/2195507.jpg)
9. http://oi68.tinypic.com/ftzmac.jpg (http://oi68.tinypic.com/ftzmac.jpg)
10. http://oi63.tinypic.com/292tthj.jpg (http://oi63.tinypic.com/292tthj.jpg)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on April 23, 2018, 09:01:31 PM
The last two show the sun without the use of an E15 solar filter. At that point, the filter was so dimming I couldn't open up the shutter speed/aperture enough to get a picture that I could keep from blurring due to wind moving my tripod.

You can see the slight "bloom" in the unfiltered sun in photo #9 even at a low elevation. That was the best I could do to reduce the glare without the filter.

The focal length for all photos was the same as was the resolution (1920x1080). I've cropped these to 1000x1000 for space, adding a little white space at the bottom for my gauge lines. The pixel widths are preserved.

Again, if there are any optics/camera details needed to evaluate what I've recorded, please ask and I'll do my best to answer. What I'm most interested in any objective flaws in this approach or analysis. I didn't convert these measurements to arcseconds or milliradians, or other common units of angular diameter. I just thought pixel width was sufficient and easiest to gauge.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on April 23, 2018, 09:08:30 PM
I think pixel measurement error is around +/- 5px, which I feel is small enough, and seems to correspond with the upper and lower bounds of what I measured.

Here, you can see the difficulty in choosing a boundary at this resolution, even with the filter. But a 1-2% measuring uncertainty shouldn't obscure any diminution of sun size, if it's occurring.

(http://oi66.tinypic.com/5b5l4o.jpg)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Devils Advocate on April 23, 2018, 09:13:49 PM
Hi Bobby, cheers for the links, having trouble seeing images on my tablet, just takes me to the page but no pics,but will try on my Mac later
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on April 23, 2018, 09:19:06 PM
Hi Bobby, cheers for the links, having trouble seeing images on my tablet, just takes me to the page but no pics,but will try on my Mac later
Hmm. Can you see this (photo #1)

(http://oi66.tinypic.com/2ly5suh.jpg)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Devils Advocate on April 23, 2018, 09:52:55 PM
Yes mate I can see that fine
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on April 24, 2018, 03:54:23 PM
No feedback? Criticisms? Commentary?
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Stagiri on April 24, 2018, 04:29:41 PM
No feedback? Criticisms? Commentary?

FEers often do not respond.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on April 24, 2018, 05:36:15 PM
I was starting to think it was something about me.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Stagiri on April 24, 2018, 05:41:41 PM
I was starting to think it was something about me.

Don't worry, it isn't  ;)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on April 24, 2018, 06:47:56 PM
I was starting to think it was something about me.

Don't worry, it isn't  ;)
I've read Tom Bishop's defense of why lights can appear larger in the distance due to atmospheric effects that counter the usual vanishing point explanation for things getting smaller with distance. But the illustrations he's chosen were streetlights and headlights where focus and optical effects like blooming or glare aren't accounted for.

I feel that by fixing focus, and making filter/exposure adjustments for glare, you can neutralize any blooming and get a sharper edge on the boundaries of the light source.

I could demonstrate how the sun can appear to shrink from a larger intense yellow glow to a smaller, red circle even at solar noon just by applying filtering and adjusting aperture/shutter/ISO. But at a point, the sun stops shrinking (assuming no change to focal length/FOV) and just gets dimmer the more filtering/exposure is applied.

I'm feeling pretty confident that I've captured the boundaries of the sun with my photos to within 1-2%, and that simply measuring pixels is a sound method of comparing diameter of the sun throughout the day as long as the focal point doesn't change. If the sun is moving away from a vantage point on a flat earth along a parallel plane, that pixel width should change markedly in the evening. If there's a magnification effect in play, it's remarkably tuned so that the sun doesn't appear to diminish to a vanishing point but instead remains the same width, even as it appears to sink behind an obstruction.

Not only that, but I can't calculate a way for the sun on a parallel plane 3000 miles above the flat earth to reach a low enough angle to even make it to the apparent horizon.  You run out of room. Given the distances involved, the sun should never appear lower than, say, 20° above the horizon from my vantage point before it would dim and recede. It would require an extraordinary amount of refraction (in the opposite direction) or a lensing medium extending low to the surface to make the sun appear 20° lower than it actually is.

And I can't work out a way for the "spotlight" explanation to be true without it manifesting itself somehow in a way we could see on the shape of the sun at sunrise/sunset. I'm really not trying to provoke anyone to defense of their beliefs or to try to convince anyone to change his mind. I'm just trying to understand how this assembly of explanations fit cohesively into a theory of flat earth and how I can test for them. The size of the sun was just one thing I thought I could examine, and I wanted to see if I could detect a change in sun size as would be predicted by a flat earth sun "setting" into a vanishing point horizon. I don't believe I did detect any change, but maybe there's something I missed or a flaw in my method or assumptions. I don't know any flat earthers to ask personally, so I came here (after finding no real FE input on the other community's message board).
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on April 29, 2018, 05:49:13 AM
Noticed the moon tonight at sunset. Thought I'd take the opportunity to "measure" it's width too. Same camera, focal length and resolution.

(http://oi67.tinypic.com/10oe4vl.jpg)

If I get up in time, I'll check and add the setting moon in the AM.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on April 29, 2018, 05:55:13 AM
Just a comment:
The moon was coming up over a low ridge when I took that first shot about 25 minutes before sunset. It looked huge. When I took the later shot when the moon was higher and the sky dark, it looked "normal."

I'd always heard the apparent large moon on a horizon of trees, or houses, or mountains was an optical illusion, due to the context of the terrestrial or man-made features. Still, I was surprised to see that, at least by measuring pixel width, the two moon images were the same size.



Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on April 30, 2018, 07:49:46 PM
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/i5672r.jpg)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on April 30, 2018, 08:43:43 PM
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/6tflv4.jpg)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: iamcpc on May 01, 2018, 07:20:05 PM
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/i5672r.jpg)


Flat earth sun size argument debunked:
https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset (https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Devils Advocate on May 01, 2018, 08:23:19 PM
I know which version I've seen, the only empirically observed option. The idea that sunset is "perspective" at work is utter b****x as this image shows
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on May 02, 2018, 07:14:55 AM
Taken from a video in which the videographer/narrator claims this is of the sun "shrinking" into the convergence layer.

(http://oi63.tinypic.com/dmvbcx.jpg)

Where he believes he sees a shrinking sun at the horizon intersection, I see the upper arc of a sun's disc, for which the diameter never changes.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on May 03, 2018, 04:07:43 PM
Rowbotham also saw sunset differently from how I do:

(http://oi68.tinypic.com/xfx342.jpg)

The bottom 1/3rd of this sun isn't being "compressed" by perspective while the upper 2/3rd remain orb-like.
The angular diameter of this sun, at less than 1° elevation, is the same as it was at solar noon.

The sun doesn't "compress" to a vanishing point. 
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 03, 2018, 07:48:35 PM
If sunset was because of the sun reaching the "vanishing point" then it would, well, vanish.
There's a clue in the name.
It wouldn't just remain a consistent size and slowly sink below the horizon.
The idea that it really is further away and therefore should be smaller but it just happens to be magnified by the exact amount as to appear as if it remains exactly the same size is laughable really.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: douglips on May 04, 2018, 12:17:50 AM
I think he's talking about those occasions where the bottom of the sun appears compressed just above the horizon. Examples:
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170120.html
https://www.123rf.com/photo_59742326_boat-and-sunset-on-the-horizon-above-sea.html?fromid=enM5dFI5U1JrOFdMZG81YlBtb3VRQT09
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on May 04, 2018, 04:57:38 AM
Or maybe ...
(http://oi68.tinypic.com/2u8cs2e.jpg)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on May 04, 2018, 01:14:42 PM
Or maybe this

(http://oi63.tinypic.com/292tthj.jpg)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: TomInAustin on May 04, 2018, 03:50:10 PM
Great thread and very clear evidence.   Would like to see Pete chime in. 
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on May 04, 2018, 06:06:36 PM
"Illusions of a Sunset"  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fnbYhF7j2U&feature=youtu.be&t=7m38s)
by Wide Wake
(starting at 7:40 mark)

Transcript of Wide Awake's commentary (my responses in blue italic)

"[The sun is] going to do a vanishing act more than it is going to go over any kind of curvature...There's going to be an arrow that pops up here, and I'm going to show you, right where this arrow points, where the true horizon line is. This is the sun reflecting off the water that's past that water line."

(http://i64.tinypic.com/ilwodw.jpg)

"That is your true horizon line."

Actually, no. The inverted mirage image is not reflecting off the water .  It's a temperature/density inversion that is causing an inverted, inferior mirage of the sun to appear, rising up to merge with the setting sun.


"And as the sun sinks, or appears to sink, it's not really sinking...But what I want you to do is pay close attention to the size of the sun right now and watch how it blends into its own reflection. It's basically going to disappear into its own reflection. It's going to get smaller within its own reflection. People say that if the earth was flat you would see the sun get smaller and smaller and smaller. Well, when it gets to this point it does get smaller. But we don't see it with our naked eyes."

Actually, the sun IS merging into it's mirage (mirror reflection), but it won't be disappearing "into its own reflection." It'll be disappearing behind the inversion layer/horizon, not receding due to distance as it moves (accelerates?) away.

"And this is why I've done this zoom-in video. Now, what you'll see is right here this is where the magic's going to begin, because if you watch it, on each side, it's actually going to get smaller. It's blending into its own reflection. You don't notice this standing on a shore. Because most of us are just in awe of such a beautiful sunset."

(http://i68.tinypic.com/2lcl7hz.jpg)

Actually, the sun isn't getting smaller.  The diminishing size from side to side is the orb of the sun becoming obscured as less and less of its upper arc remains visible, with it's upper rim inverted by the inversion.

"But now, what I'm going to do is put another arrow here. It was a little windy that day but I waited until this video settled down a little bit, and I put another arrow here to show you where that actual horizon line is. It is there."

(http://i66.tinypic.com/wkmtlu.jpg)

"What you're actually seeing is the sun is shrinking into its own reflection. And nobody realizes this. Nobody sees this."

Not shrinking. Just seeing less and less of it's upper rim, like going behind a mirror.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/ame2z8.jpg)


"Right about here, actually, is -- I used the zoom tool -- I took that portion of the video from that point to the end of this, to this next transition, and I used the zoom tool and I zoomed in on it and I wanted to give you a close up view and a slow motion view of that sun...Now this is the sun, and it's going to slowly disappear. It's going to do a magic act. It's going to do an illusion. It's going to deceive you because it is going to disappear but it's going to disappear into the atmosphere. Just like some of my boats that I show get out to a certain point on the horizon, it disappears back into that mirage -- that glass area, that mirroring area, that area that mirrors the sky."

(http://i68.tinypic.com/m8zh4i.jpg)

Just moments before, Wide Awake was claiming that the true horizon was higher where the "merging" into the reflection was supposedly occurring. Now, that horizon is gone and the sun is "disappear[ing] into the atmosphere." But actually, the horizon is where it always was, and "the atmosphere" into which he claims the sun is disappearing is the top of that inversion layer, and the sun's light being obscured by it.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2s7amon.jpg)

"So, I've got this think slowed way down. This is what I want you to see how this is working. And how where below this you can see the visible water line but above that water line you can tell that is a mirroring of the sky. And this is mirrored from the top to the bottom. You split that in half, it's just mirroring the sun  slowly fading away."

(http://i65.tinypic.com/2vt1wmd.jpg)

Actually, this is the last vestiges of the upper arc of the sun's orb.  It is the last refracted light of the "top" of the sun passing through an inversion layer. It is not the full sun shrinking to a point and fading into the atmosphere. Even the timing belies Wide Awake's assessment of what has transpired. In real time, this sequence took 8 seconds to happen. The full sequence of sunset, from the appearance of the mirage to the full disappearance last 3 minutes.

"The sun never sets."

I wish WideAwake (or Phuket Word) were participants on this board. Much better to have some dialogue rather than just "distant" rebutting.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Treep Ravisaras on May 05, 2018, 11:59:39 AM
Very interesting, thank you for doing this work.

Our knowledge increases by seeing and observing and it seems you have done fair share amount of that. An explanation must be seen or observed in order to be real. Seems you want to show us that sun does not change in size (except for apparent size) during it's path across the sky.

You know that flat earth theory says the same? "This is how the sun's diameter is maintained throughout the day." (https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset#Magnification_and_Shrinking)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on May 05, 2018, 05:25:11 PM
Very interesting, thank you for doing this work.

Thanks for the thanks. It's been both fun and stimulating.

You know that flat earth theory says the same? "This is how the sun's diameter is maintained throughout the day." (https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset#Magnification_and_Shrinking)

I've read that, but that explanation could only address atmospheric effects very close to sunset. Even if it was a sound explanation for sunset observation, it doesn't explain a constant sun size as sun moves from midday toward sunset.

And besides, Chapter X of "Earth not a Globe" offers an explanation for why, as Rowbotham claims, the sun appears LARGER before sunset than at midday. The wiki article cites his rationale, but for why it stays the same size vice getting smaller.

Still others claim the sun DOES get smaller.

Whatever the (theoretical) explanation, my observation is that the sun's angular diameter doesn't change, either throughout the day or day-to-day. Whatever earth/sun model for which one might advocate needs to account for that.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: isaacN on May 06, 2018, 06:41:25 AM
Very interesting, thank you for doing this work.

Our knowledge increases by seeing and observing and it seems you have done fair share amount of that. An explanation must be seen or observed in order to be real. Seems you want to show us that sun does not change in size (except for apparent size) during it's path across the sky.

You know that flat earth theory says the same? "This is how the sun's diameter is maintained throughout the day." (https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset#Magnification_and_Shrinking)

While Mr. Shafto has indeed put in a great deal of effort into producing his evidence, he has not increased our knowledge of the sun by one iota. He has just demonstrated a feature of the sun that has always been know about, and that is its unchanging apparent size. The dimensions of the sun along with other aspects of its structure and inner workings are very accurately known and are freely available. The fact that the information we have available regarding the sun is produced by multiple third hand authority does in no way diminish its validity. Most of the information we require in our day to day lives is not self derived rather it has been produced by a wide range of third party authorities . Selectively checking individual pieces of third hand authority derived information is in the end futile as the vast majority of people have neither the means nor the technical knowhow to perform the required corobarative experiments. In the end we rely on the way in which authority derived information is checked by multiple agencies to ensure its accuracy.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Tontogary on May 06, 2018, 08:48:14 AM
Thanks for posting this very good thread Bobby.

I have on board my ship sextant for measuring angles pretty accurately and have been taking a series of measurements each day as we have proceeded from a position of about 20 degrees south to where we were yesterday about 20 degrees north.
The suns declination (or latitude where the sun is right overhead) at present is about 16 degrees north, so in about 10 days we have gone from a place on earth about 35 degrees south of where the sun is overhead to right underneath it, and now are north of the suns path.

The angle of the suns elevation has gone from about 55 degrees above the horizon at noon, to 90 degrees, and now has started to drop from the zenith at noon.

I have taken the suns diameter using the sextant at noon each day we have been able to (some days it was obscured by cloud) and have been able to cross check my measurements.
By taking the upper limb, and putting it onto the lower limb, and the other way round i am able to measure not only the suns diameter, but using the almanacs reading for the semi diameter of the sun, cross check my readings.

Over the last 10 days or so i have observed the suns semi diameter at Noon to be 31.8 minutes of arc consistently, even though we have travelled over about 2,000 miles closer to the suns track over the earth.
There has been NO CHANGE in the suns diameter at noon, at different apparent altitudes, when it has been crossing the meridian.

 I have also taken the same measurements through the day, and have seen the same results, ie that the suns diameter does not change throughout the day, even shortly after sunrise, through noon, to before sunset.

This shows that wherever you are on earth, at whatever time of day it is, the suns diameter does not change, and simple maths will tell you that the range of differences in distance, if the sun were only 3000 miles away, the diameter would change greatly.
It does not therefore it proves the sun is a great distance away...and the earth therefore is global.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on May 07, 2018, 05:49:39 PM
Maybe a bit off-topic, but a neat alignment of sunset with the Scripps pier (La Jolla) that occurs 2x a year...
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/2znznk1.jpg)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: isaacN on May 07, 2018, 09:14:34 PM
Maybe a bit off-topic, but a neat alignment of sunset with the Scripps pier (La Jolla) that occurs 2x a year...
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/2znznk1.jpg)

Nice photo, like it.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Ballboy on May 08, 2018, 08:14:26 PM
Rowbotham also saw sunset differently from how I do:

(http://oi68.tinypic.com/xfx342.jpg)

The bottom 1/3rd of this sun isn't being "compressed" by perspective while the upper 2/3rd remain orb-like.
The angular diameter of this sun, at less than 1° elevation, is the same as it was at solar noon.

The sun doesn't "compress" to a vanishing point.

When he says “now consider what happens when the sun is setting”, does he mean receding?
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on May 24, 2018, 05:59:01 AM
This can't be right.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/3jiLBFROOcVnnyBSse/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Max_Almond on May 25, 2018, 02:37:49 AM
Someone's suggesting that to explain the sun setting on a flat earth?

Lol.

Though I suppose it beats sliding coins along a table with a camera slightly lower than the edge. ;)

Here's a cool interactive tool that shows what the flat earth sun should look like, and that it would dramatically change size throughout the day:

(https://www.metabunk.org/sk/sun-size-flat-earth-model-southern-hemisphere.gif) (https://www.geogebra.org/m/C9BcVgd4)
https://www.geogebra.org/m/C9BcVgd4

And here are three photos of the sun taken several hours apart through welders' glass to eliminate the flare:

(https://www.metabunk.org/attachments/sun-at-various-altitudes-jpg.17524/)

Or if you prefer videos, here's a setting sun taken with a solar filter on the camera, again staying the same size:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHTgtCY6-6o

We know that things get smaller as they move further away from us. We know that the sun doesn't change its apparent size (much) during the day or the year.

And we know that the flat earth model requires the sun to vary its distance from any particular observer enormously, and continuously.

This one fact, therefore, of the sun appearing to stay the same size really ought to be enough to put flat earth to bed.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 25, 2018, 10:39:31 PM
This one fact, therefore, of the sun appearing to stay the same size really ought to be enough to put flat earth to bed.

Look at Georgii Shipin's gallery: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/georgiishipin?searchterm=light

The lights in the background are generally all the same size. While I believe this to be an effect of the camera and lens in his photos, who is to say that such a similar phenomena can't manifest upon the atmosphere as an effect there as well?

It is clearly possible for bright lights to maintain their size into the distance.

There are similar things seen with bright headlights and such: https://wiki.tfes.org/images/a/a7/Headlight_example.jpg
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Max_Almond on May 25, 2018, 11:20:18 PM
All those photos are of flares. But if you use a filter you can take a picture of the actual light source. Which is what has been done above with the photos I showed you.

Can you find a picture of a light source which maintains its apparent size when moving into the distance that isn't due to flare?

That's what you'd need to put forward to support this.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 25, 2018, 11:49:22 PM
All those photos are of flares. But if you use a filter you can take a picture of the actual light source. Which is what has been done above with the photos I showed you.

Can you find a picture of a light source which maintains its apparent size when moving into the distance that isn't due to flare?

That's what you'd need to put forward to support this.

The effects in Georgii Shipin's gallery (https://www.shutterstock.com/g/georgiishipin?searchterm=light) are due to an effect of camera focusing and aperture, not flares. We did talk about it at one point. Diffusion scattering or some such. I will see if I can find those old discussions.

I do find it remarkable for light sources to maintain their size, no matter how far away they are.

It does suggest that the mechanism in Earth Not a Globe may be possible if this same sort of mechanism could occur in the atmosphere, which at times in contemporary literature is described as acting like a lens in some ways.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Max_Almond on May 25, 2018, 11:57:18 PM
Tom said: The effects in the gallery are due to some effect of camera focusing and aperture, not flares.

Reality says: Right words, wrong order. Lens flares are caused by the mechanisms of the camera.

Tom said: I do find it remarkable for light sources to maintain their size, no matter how far away they are.

Reality asks: Do you mean their actual size or their apparent size to the distant viewer?

What is "the mechanism in 'Earth not a Globe'"?
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: rabinoz on May 26, 2018, 02:16:55 AM
All those photos are of flares. But if you use a filter you can take a picture of the actual light source. Which is what has been done above with the photos I showed you.

Can you find a picture of a light source which maintains its apparent size when moving into the distance that isn't due to flare?

That's what you'd need to put forward to support this.

The effects in Georgii Shipin's gallery (https://www.shutterstock.com/g/georgiishipin?searchterm=light) are due to an effect of camera focusing and aperture, not flares. We did talk about it at one point. Diffusion scattering or some such. I will see if I can find those old discussions.

I do find it remarkable for light sources to maintain their size, no matter how far away they are.
You are correct in that light sources never quite maintain their angular size as they move away.
For distant objects angular size is simply size/distance. It is usually expressed in degrees and then is close enough to size/(57 x distance).
For example using Globe figures, the moon's distance averages about 384,400 km and the earth's equatorial radius is 6378 km.
When the moon is rising or setting (over the Globe) the distance from the viewer is simply the 384,400 km but if directly overhead it is closer by the earth's equatorial radius of 6378 km.
Hence the moon should appear about 1.7% larger when directly.
This is not noticeable, especially as there is rarely any nearby visual reference. The difference is even less if the moon is not directly overhead.

And the sun, at about 149 million km, is so far away that even astronomers cannot measure the distance using simple parallax with any baseline on earth.
Here the change in size change is only about 0.004% and totally imperceptible.

The sun and moon on any current flat earth model are, of course, a completely different story. In that case the distance may change by a factor of three or more, hence the problem.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
It does suggest that the mechanism in Earth Not a Globe may be possible if this same sort of mechanism could occur in the atmosphere, which at times in contemporary literature is described as acting like a lens in some ways.
Lens flare (probably really just very gross overexposure) can certainly make the sun seem larger than it is when well above the horizon, making it appear to shrink as it loses brightness as it approaches the horizon.
Observations of the moon have no such problem, though it still quite possible to overexpose a photo the moon. The full moon is a very bright object.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Tontogary on May 26, 2018, 11:07:21 AM

I do find it remarkable for light sources to maintain their size, no matter how far away they are.


Really?

Suns diameter varies from 32.6 arc minutes To 31.4 arc minutes throughout the year.

If a light source (sun) does not get smaller the further or closer it is, why the change in the measurable diameter of the sun?
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 26, 2018, 08:21:59 PM

I do find it remarkable for light sources to maintain their size, no matter how far away they are.


Really?

Suns diameter varies from 32.6 arc minutes To 31.4 arc minutes throughout the year.

If a light source (sun) does not get smaller the further or closer it is, why the change in the measurable diameter of the sun?

Some of those lights in that gallery do get slightly bigger when they get too close to the camera. Otherwise they seem to be all the same size stretching into the distance. It appears to be purely a far field effect. I imagine that if one of those lights were one inch from the camera lens that it would look a lot bigger than when in the far field.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Tontogary on May 26, 2018, 10:19:01 PM

I do find it remarkable for light sources to maintain their size, no matter how far away they are.


Really?

Suns diameter varies from 32.6 arc minutes To 31.4 arc minutes throughout the year.

If a light source (sun) does not get smaller the further or closer it is, why the change in the measurable diameter of the sun?

Some of those lights in that gallery do get slightly bigger when they get too close to the camera. Otherwise they seem to be all the same size stretching into the distance. It appears to be purely a far field effect. I imagine that if one of those lights were one inch from the camera lens that it would look a lot bigger than when in the far field.

So light source size does change then? At what distance does this “far field” effect happen? You will be able to provide tables and evidence as well as a formula for calculating this?

Or does “seem to” constitute proof?
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on May 27, 2018, 12:05:10 AM
Using a solar filter, eliminating "flare" and not artistically playing with depth of field as that photographer has done, I can, for the purpose of proper angular size measurement/observation, make it so that the sun is not subject to the optical effects of the terrestrial lights in these photographs. Those photographs are not a fair analogy. See my images on the first page of this topic.

Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: rabinoz on May 29, 2018, 10:27:02 PM
Using a solar filter, eliminating "flare" and not artistically playing with depth of field as that photographer has done, I can, for the purpose of proper angular size measurement/observation, make it so that the sun is not subject to the optical effects of the terrestrial lights in these photographs. Those photographs are not a fair analogy. See my images on the first page of this topic.
;) Who needs a solar filter ;)? Not I when I get a nice mist this morning that makes possible nice sharp photos of the sun just above the horizon.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/20mxsuek1nl97ck/P1030049%2020180530%2006.43.56%20Elev%202.1%C2%B0%20Azm%2064.1%C2%B0%20size%200.54%C2%B0%20x%200.51%C2%B0.JPG?dl=1)
30th of May 2018 at 06:43 Elev 2.0° Azm 64.1° size 0.54° x 0.50°
I don't think there's any "magnification effect caused by the intense rays of light passing through the strata of the atmolayer" though there is about 8% vertical shrinking due to refraction.

And just to show the elevation:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ubszwo1ctm2agpm/P1030050%2020180530%2006.44.27%20Elev%202.2%C2%B0%20Azm%2064.1%C2%B0.JPG?dl=1)
30th of May 2018 at 06:44 Elev 2.2° Azm 64.1°
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Max_Almond on May 30, 2018, 02:30:06 AM
Surely this has been put to bed?

Everyone agrees, right, that the sun doesn't significantly change size during the day - and therefore doesn't significantly change its distance from any particular observer.

The sun as proposed by the Flat Earth Society, which travels towards and away from each observer, therefore, is impossible.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: hexagon on May 30, 2018, 08:27:33 AM
The lights in this gallery above get bigger because of blurriness. People used a lens with low depth of field and focused on something in the foreground. Photographers call this effect "bokeh", which is Japanese for "blurry".

I also would suggest to have a look into an optics book to inform oneself what the expression "far field" means... 
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on May 30, 2018, 05:04:22 PM
What's happening here?

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iCBGa_jCiTQ/Ww7Y_tSS9jI/AAAAAAAAJ04/7C85Gy9eiHEJXV7Rf59bsqHs970TCz7LQCLcBGAs/s1600/ILLUSIONS_OF_A_SUNSET.gif)


Where's the true horizon?
Are those waves?
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on July 07, 2018, 10:36:17 PM
Wanted to post an interesting picture of the setting sun, taken last week (not by me) from the Del Mar Fairgrounds during an evening of the San Diego County Fair.

(http://oi66.tinypic.com/52duep.jpg)

Lots going on in this photo: mirage, compression, diffusion, refraction...makes for a beautiful and unusual sunset.


(Yikes. Originally posted this without the photo.)
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on November 04, 2018, 12:38:25 AM
A very unusual sunset seen from San Diego last night.

(http://oi67.tinypic.com/eagy3b.jpg)

Not just a green flash, but it's inverted.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Earthman on November 04, 2018, 01:13:35 AM
Flat Earth Sunset - Impossible on a Globe Earth :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15zNfRfpukk&index=147&list=FLiA3u9Cp8IHtFAUtmYmskxQ&t=0s
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Earthman on November 04, 2018, 01:30:06 AM
Wanted to post an interesting picture of the setting sun, taken last week (not by me) from the Del Mar Fairgrounds during an evening of the San Diego County Fair.

(http://oi66.tinypic.com/52duep.jpg)

Lots going on in this photo: mirage, compression, diffusion, refraction...makes for a beautiful and unusual sunset.


(Yikes. Originally posted this without the photo.)

Wow, what a wonderful Sunset over the Curvizon. Look at that beautiful curve. I just can't understanding why flat earthers believe the oceans are horizontal.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Curious Squirrel on November 04, 2018, 01:42:24 AM
Flat Earth Sunset - Impossible on a Globe Earth :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15zNfRfpukk&index=147&list=FLiA3u9Cp8IHtFAUtmYmskxQ&t=0s
The picture quality is so bad here it's impossible to tell what's even happening in this video. If I had to hazard a guess the sun appears to be sinking behind large amounts of clouds gathered on the horizon, giving the effect of the 'point' of the sun steadily shrinking? Failing to see what's so impossible about that, but again I can't even tell what's going on here for sure to begin with.
Title: Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
Post by: Bobby Shafto on November 04, 2018, 02:37:08 AM
Flat Earth Sunset - Impossible on a Globe Earth :)

That *does* more closely represent what I think a sunset on a flat earth* would look like, although I'd expect it to slow it's apparent descent and never get that low before "winking" out, either due to distance or some spotlight effect.

In my world, sunsets I've seen behave more like this (4 minutes in real time; 40 seconds sped up)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwn5c6aPmVc

This is from last Spring. No lens filter. Exposure and atmospheric conditions provided the filter to knock down the glare so we see the sun at its actual size throughout.

And here's a rough one (in real time this time) from just the other night, experimenting with a telescope + iPhone. No filter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lFmzNiEbcY

*Note: A flat earth without electromagnetic accelerator, that is.