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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2018, 04:07:43 PM »
Rowbotham also saw sunset differently from how I do:



The bottom 1/3rd of this sun isn't being "compressed" by perspective while the upper 2/3rd remain orb-like.
The angular diameter of this sun, at less than 1° elevation, is the same as it was at solar noon.

The sun doesn't "compress" to a vanishing point. 

Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2018, 07:48:35 PM »
If sunset was because of the sun reaching the "vanishing point" then it would, well, vanish.
There's a clue in the name.
It wouldn't just remain a consistent size and slowly sink below the horizon.
The idea that it really is further away and therefore should be smaller but it just happens to be magnified by the exact amount as to appear as if it remains exactly the same size is laughable really.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2018, 12:17:50 AM »
I think he's talking about those occasions where the bottom of the sun appears compressed just above the horizon. Examples:
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170120.html
https://www.123rf.com/photo_59742326_boat-and-sunset-on-the-horizon-above-sea.html?fromid=enM5dFI5U1JrOFdMZG81YlBtb3VRQT09

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2018, 04:57:38 AM »
Or maybe ...

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2018, 01:14:42 PM »
Or maybe this


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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2018, 03:50:10 PM »
Great thread and very clear evidence.   Would like to see Pete chime in. 
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2018, 06:06:36 PM »
"Illusions of a Sunset"
by Wide Wake
(starting at 7:40 mark)

Transcript of Wide Awake's commentary (my responses in blue italic)

"[The sun is] going to do a vanishing act more than it is going to go over any kind of curvature...There's going to be an arrow that pops up here, and I'm going to show you, right where this arrow points, where the true horizon line is. This is the sun reflecting off the water that's past that water line."



"That is your true horizon line."

Actually, no. The inverted mirage image is not reflecting off the water .  It's a temperature/density inversion that is causing an inverted, inferior mirage of the sun to appear, rising up to merge with the setting sun.


"And as the sun sinks, or appears to sink, it's not really sinking...But what I want you to do is pay close attention to the size of the sun right now and watch how it blends into its own reflection. It's basically going to disappear into its own reflection. It's going to get smaller within its own reflection. People say that if the earth was flat you would see the sun get smaller and smaller and smaller. Well, when it gets to this point it does get smaller. But we don't see it with our naked eyes."

Actually, the sun IS merging into it's mirage (mirror reflection), but it won't be disappearing "into its own reflection." It'll be disappearing behind the inversion layer/horizon, not receding due to distance as it moves (accelerates?) away.

"And this is why I've done this zoom-in video. Now, what you'll see is right here this is where the magic's going to begin, because if you watch it, on each side, it's actually going to get smaller. It's blending into its own reflection. You don't notice this standing on a shore. Because most of us are just in awe of such a beautiful sunset."



Actually, the sun isn't getting smaller.  The diminishing size from side to side is the orb of the sun becoming obscured as less and less of its upper arc remains visible, with it's upper rim inverted by the inversion.

"But now, what I'm going to do is put another arrow here. It was a little windy that day but I waited until this video settled down a little bit, and I put another arrow here to show you where that actual horizon line is. It is there."



"What you're actually seeing is the sun is shrinking into its own reflection. And nobody realizes this. Nobody sees this."

Not shrinking. Just seeing less and less of it's upper rim, like going behind a mirror.



"Right about here, actually, is -- I used the zoom tool -- I took that portion of the video from that point to the end of this, to this next transition, and I used the zoom tool and I zoomed in on it and I wanted to give you a close up view and a slow motion view of that sun...Now this is the sun, and it's going to slowly disappear. It's going to do a magic act. It's going to do an illusion. It's going to deceive you because it is going to disappear but it's going to disappear into the atmosphere. Just like some of my boats that I show get out to a certain point on the horizon, it disappears back into that mirage -- that glass area, that mirroring area, that area that mirrors the sky."



Just moments before, Wide Awake was claiming that the true horizon was higher where the "merging" into the reflection was supposedly occurring. Now, that horizon is gone and the sun is "disappear[ing] into the atmosphere." But actually, the horizon is where it always was, and "the atmosphere" into which he claims the sun is disappearing is the top of that inversion layer, and the sun's light being obscured by it.


"So, I've got this think slowed way down. This is what I want you to see how this is working. And how where below this you can see the visible water line but above that water line you can tell that is a mirroring of the sky. And this is mirrored from the top to the bottom. You split that in half, it's just mirroring the sun  slowly fading away."



Actually, this is the last vestiges of the upper arc of the sun's orb.  It is the last refracted light of the "top" of the sun passing through an inversion layer. It is not the full sun shrinking to a point and fading into the atmosphere. Even the timing belies Wide Awake's assessment of what has transpired. In real time, this sequence took 8 seconds to happen. The full sequence of sunset, from the appearance of the mirage to the full disappearance last 3 minutes.

"The sun never sets."

I wish WideAwake (or Phuket Word) were participants on this board. Much better to have some dialogue rather than just "distant" rebutting.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 04:36:39 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2018, 11:59:39 AM »
Very interesting, thank you for doing this work.

Our knowledge increases by seeing and observing and it seems you have done fair share amount of that. An explanation must be seen or observed in order to be real. Seems you want to show us that sun does not change in size (except for apparent size) during it's path across the sky.

You know that flat earth theory says the same? "This is how the sun's diameter is maintained throughout the day."
As the saying goes "The internet belongs to the lunatics in their walled gardens" - Xiang Yu

I see a Flat Earth. And I can't imagine anything else.

I got work to do. 0.00018% of Christians believe in a Flat Earth. Pls help

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2018, 05:25:11 PM »
Very interesting, thank you for doing this work.

Thanks for the thanks. It's been both fun and stimulating.

You know that flat earth theory says the same? "This is how the sun's diameter is maintained throughout the day."

I've read that, but that explanation could only address atmospheric effects very close to sunset. Even if it was a sound explanation for sunset observation, it doesn't explain a constant sun size as sun moves from midday toward sunset.

And besides, Chapter X of "Earth not a Globe" offers an explanation for why, as Rowbotham claims, the sun appears LARGER before sunset than at midday. The wiki article cites his rationale, but for why it stays the same size vice getting smaller.

Still others claim the sun DOES get smaller.

Whatever the (theoretical) explanation, my observation is that the sun's angular diameter doesn't change, either throughout the day or day-to-day. Whatever earth/sun model for which one might advocate needs to account for that.

Offline isaacN

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2018, 06:41:25 AM »
Very interesting, thank you for doing this work.

Our knowledge increases by seeing and observing and it seems you have done fair share amount of that. An explanation must be seen or observed in order to be real. Seems you want to show us that sun does not change in size (except for apparent size) during it's path across the sky.

You know that flat earth theory says the same? "This is how the sun's diameter is maintained throughout the day."

While Mr. Shafto has indeed put in a great deal of effort into producing his evidence, he has not increased our knowledge of the sun by one iota. He has just demonstrated a feature of the sun that has always been know about, and that is its unchanging apparent size. The dimensions of the sun along with other aspects of its structure and inner workings are very accurately known and are freely available. The fact that the information we have available regarding the sun is produced by multiple third hand authority does in no way diminish its validity. Most of the information we require in our day to day lives is not self derived rather it has been produced by a wide range of third party authorities . Selectively checking individual pieces of third hand authority derived information is in the end futile as the vast majority of people have neither the means nor the technical knowhow to perform the required corobarative experiments. In the end we rely on the way in which authority derived information is checked by multiple agencies to ensure its accuracy.

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2018, 08:48:14 AM »
Thanks for posting this very good thread Bobby.

I have on board my ship sextant for measuring angles pretty accurately and have been taking a series of measurements each day as we have proceeded from a position of about 20 degrees south to where we were yesterday about 20 degrees north.
The suns declination (or latitude where the sun is right overhead) at present is about 16 degrees north, so in about 10 days we have gone from a place on earth about 35 degrees south of where the sun is overhead to right underneath it, and now are north of the suns path.

The angle of the suns elevation has gone from about 55 degrees above the horizon at noon, to 90 degrees, and now has started to drop from the zenith at noon.

I have taken the suns diameter using the sextant at noon each day we have been able to (some days it was obscured by cloud) and have been able to cross check my measurements.
By taking the upper limb, and putting it onto the lower limb, and the other way round i am able to measure not only the suns diameter, but using the almanacs reading for the semi diameter of the sun, cross check my readings.

Over the last 10 days or so i have observed the suns semi diameter at Noon to be 31.8 minutes of arc consistently, even though we have travelled over about 2,000 miles closer to the suns track over the earth.
There has been NO CHANGE in the suns diameter at noon, at different apparent altitudes, when it has been crossing the meridian.

 I have also taken the same measurements through the day, and have seen the same results, ie that the suns diameter does not change throughout the day, even shortly after sunrise, through noon, to before sunset.

This shows that wherever you are on earth, at whatever time of day it is, the suns diameter does not change, and simple maths will tell you that the range of differences in distance, if the sun were only 3000 miles away, the diameter would change greatly.
It does not therefore it proves the sun is a great distance away...and the earth therefore is global.

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2018, 05:49:39 PM »
Maybe a bit off-topic, but a neat alignment of sunset with the Scripps pier (La Jolla) that occurs 2x a year...

Offline isaacN

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2018, 09:14:34 PM »
Maybe a bit off-topic, but a neat alignment of sunset with the Scripps pier (La Jolla) that occurs 2x a year...


Nice photo, like it.

Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2018, 08:14:26 PM »
Rowbotham also saw sunset differently from how I do:



The bottom 1/3rd of this sun isn't being "compressed" by perspective while the upper 2/3rd remain orb-like.
The angular diameter of this sun, at less than 1° elevation, is the same as it was at solar noon.

The sun doesn't "compress" to a vanishing point.

When he says “now consider what happens when the sun is setting”, does he mean receding?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2018, 05:59:01 AM »
This can't be right.


Max_Almond

Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2018, 02:37:49 AM »
Someone's suggesting that to explain the sun setting on a flat earth?

Lol.

Though I suppose it beats sliding coins along a table with a camera slightly lower than the edge. ;)

Here's a cool interactive tool that shows what the flat earth sun should look like, and that it would dramatically change size throughout the day:


https://www.geogebra.org/m/C9BcVgd4

And here are three photos of the sun taken several hours apart through welders' glass to eliminate the flare:



Or if you prefer videos, here's a setting sun taken with a solar filter on the camera, again staying the same size:



We know that things get smaller as they move further away from us. We know that the sun doesn't change its apparent size (much) during the day or the year.

And we know that the flat earth model requires the sun to vary its distance from any particular observer enormously, and continuously.

This one fact, therefore, of the sun appearing to stay the same size really ought to be enough to put flat earth to bed.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 02:44:02 AM by Max_Almond »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2018, 10:39:31 PM »
This one fact, therefore, of the sun appearing to stay the same size really ought to be enough to put flat earth to bed.

Look at Georgii Shipin's gallery: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/georgiishipin?searchterm=light

The lights in the background are generally all the same size. While I believe this to be an effect of the camera and lens in his photos, who is to say that such a similar phenomena can't manifest upon the atmosphere as an effect there as well?

It is clearly possible for bright lights to maintain their size into the distance.

There are similar things seen with bright headlights and such: https://wiki.tfes.org/images/a/a7/Headlight_example.jpg
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 11:56:03 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Max_Almond

Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2018, 11:20:18 PM »
All those photos are of flares. But if you use a filter you can take a picture of the actual light source. Which is what has been done above with the photos I showed you.

Can you find a picture of a light source which maintains its apparent size when moving into the distance that isn't due to flare?

That's what you'd need to put forward to support this.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2018, 11:49:22 PM »
All those photos are of flares. But if you use a filter you can take a picture of the actual light source. Which is what has been done above with the photos I showed you.

Can you find a picture of a light source which maintains its apparent size when moving into the distance that isn't due to flare?

That's what you'd need to put forward to support this.

The effects in Georgii Shipin's gallery (https://www.shutterstock.com/g/georgiishipin?searchterm=light) are due to an effect of camera focusing and aperture, not flares. We did talk about it at one point. Diffusion scattering or some such. I will see if I can find those old discussions.

I do find it remarkable for light sources to maintain their size, no matter how far away they are.

It does suggest that the mechanism in Earth Not a Globe may be possible if this same sort of mechanism could occur in the atmosphere, which at times in contemporary literature is described as acting like a lens in some ways.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 12:07:25 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Max_Almond

Re: Observation of Sun Size During the Day
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2018, 11:57:18 PM »
Tom said: The effects in the gallery are due to some effect of camera focusing and aperture, not flares.

Reality says: Right words, wrong order. Lens flares are caused by the mechanisms of the camera.

Tom said: I do find it remarkable for light sources to maintain their size, no matter how far away they are.

Reality asks: Do you mean their actual size or their apparent size to the distant viewer?

What is "the mechanism in 'Earth not a Globe'"?