Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« on: April 23, 2018, 06:38:49 AM »
..and why isn't the FE side "winning" a single thread in the Debate forum?

Scrolling through pages after pages of the forum, I see the remains of many great threads that utterly destroy the FE myth. In most of them all the FE questions, misunderstandings, and objections have been addressed. I get that there are only a few flat-heads left here to reply to forum posts, and we're all very grateful for your efforts, but you'd at least hope to see some threads where the RE side is losing...

Offline Westprog

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2018, 07:15:39 AM »
..and why isn't the FE side "winning" a single thread in the Debate forum?

Scrolling through pages after pages of the forum, I see the remains of many great threads that utterly destroy the FE myth. In most of them all the FE questions, misunderstandings, and objections have been addressed. I get that there are only a few flat-heads left here to reply to forum posts, and we're all very grateful for your efforts, but you'd at least hope to see some threads where the RE side is losing...

I think you're misunderstanding how it works.

Flat Earth is considered to be a fact. It's the starting point. Any arguments that appear to cast doubt on Flat Earth are inherently flawed.

There's a constant insistence that FE advocates are thinking for themselves and are not willing to just accept propaganda. They say this, but watch how they operate and it works quite differently. Ask a FE advocate what evidence would convince them to change their mind, what experiment could be carried out that would prove the point, and they'll insist that there can be no such evidence. Flat Earth is a fact, not a theory . It can't be disproved.

So the more ingenious the proofs that the Earth is not flat, the more deluded the proponent must be. There is no meeting of minds possible.

Consider the nature of Flat Earth belief. It's a way of getting emotional satisfaction at the expense of understanding the world correctly. It allows a sense of superiority and cleverness from people who don't get such feelings from their normal life. Note how self-satisfied they are, how they almost pity the people who haven't got the same understanding. They won't give up this emotional satisfaction just to be part of the ordinary crowd.

In a way, the people who think they can "win" an argument against a Flat Earth believer are almost equally deluded. That is not going to happen. It's quite possible to function in society as a Flat Earth believer. Nowadays, there are all sorts of people who believe all sorts of things. The number of people who need to accept that the Earth is round in order to do their jobs is quite small - pilots, navigators, surveyors, geographers.

The important point to realise is that if FE believers were susceptible to evidence, they wouldn't be FE believers in the first place.

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2018, 08:21:40 AM »
..and why isn't the FE side "winning" a single thread in the Debate forum?

Scrolling through pages after pages of the forum, I see the remains of many great threads that utterly destroy the FE myth. In most of them all the FE questions, misunderstandings, and objections have been addressed. I get that there are only a few flat-heads left here to reply to forum posts, and we're all very grateful for your efforts, but you'd at least hope to see some threads where the RE side is losing...

I think you're misunderstanding how it works.

Flat Earth is considered to be a fact. It's the starting point. Any arguments that appear to cast doubt on Flat Earth are inherently flawed.

There's a constant insistence that FE advocates are thinking for themselves and are not willing to just accept propaganda. They say this, but watch how they operate and it works quite differently. Ask a FE advocate what evidence would convince them to change their mind, what experiment could be carried out that would prove the point, and they'll insist that there can be no such evidence. Flat Earth is a fact, not a theory . It can't be disproved.

So the more ingenious the proofs that the Earth is not flat, the more deluded the proponent must be. There is no meeting of minds possible.

Consider the nature of Flat Earth belief. It's a way of getting emotional satisfaction at the expense of understanding the world correctly. It allows a sense of superiority and cleverness from people who don't get such feelings from their normal life. Note how self-satisfied they are, how they almost pity the people who haven't got the same understanding. They won't give up this emotional satisfaction just to be part of the ordinary crowd.

In a way, the people who think they can "win" an argument against a Flat Earth believer are almost equally deluded. That is not going to happen. It's quite possible to function in society as a Flat Earth believer. Nowadays, there are all sorts of people who believe all sorts of things. The number of people who need to accept that the Earth is round in order to do their jobs is quite small - pilots, navigators, surveyors, geographers.

The important point to realise is that if FE believers were susceptible to evidence, they wouldn't be FE believers in the first place.

There was a good post about using airline miles and times to prove the flat earth could not exist, and the argument against accepting it came down to that no one knows what any distance on earth is!
This was because distances are calculated on a RE model, therefore if you cannot come up with a way of measuring distances that are independent of a Re model, all measured (and also calculated distances) are false.

I did manage to show a way, using a speed measuring device that is calibrated to the earth (flat or not) and it has since gone very quiet.

Most of the difficult questions are met with a wall of silence, or the argument is sidetracked with some minor point scoring attempts, which detract from the questions asked.

There are some really weird assumptions as well, it was stated by one FEer, that he reserved his opinion of my integrity because he thinks sailors are not honest! (I am a seafarer not a sailor, there is a difference!)

I too am aware of the very few FEers who debate on this forum, so have to question if it is actually a valid forum?

Finally on this point it is rather ironic that FEers are so adamant that their own preconceived ideas mean that any other idea is to be discarded when this very thing is warned about in EnaG chapter 1!
Given the amount of evidence, observations, and carefully collected data, could anyone maintain the world is flat?

“None can doubt that by making special experiments, and collecting manifest and undeniable facts, arranging them in logical order, and observing what is naturally and fairly deducible therefrom, the result must be more consistent and satisfactory than the contrary method of framing a theory or system--assuming the existence and operation of causes of which there is no direct and practical evidence, and which is only claimed to be "admitted for the sake of argument," and for the purpose of giving an apparent and plausible, but not necessarily truthful explanation of phenomena. All theories are of this character.”

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Offline SiDawg

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2018, 08:51:10 AM »
Yep i'm certain Rowbotham would have been convinced of the globe a long time ago. It's very telling that I haven't ONCE heard someone admit they're wrong on even the most minor of elements, from the "casual saturday morning you tube commentator" to the staunch full attack mode condescending flat earther... just ONCE i'd like to read someone say "hmm yeah good point"

There's a post on you tube where some guy says that people should be able to jump off the earth because the cavendish experiment only measured a very small force. I pointed out to them that the force measured was only between two balls... Still didn't get it! Cue nonsense endless argument and complete failure to accept a very simple "apple = apple, orange = orange" argument.

Not to mention perspective... This is particularly irksome. Some guy called P Brane draws a diagonal line on a side view and proclaims "this is how perspective works" and all the flat earthers post endless comments "wow! Brilliant! Thanks!" ... I mean come on... I've been meaning to post on how perspective ACTUALLY works, but sadly my apartment was flooded. That was one occasion I wish that water DIDN'T always find a level lol But an understanding of perspective, a very very simple concept, very easily explains why you don't get sunrise/sunset if the sun is circling above you. I just want to know I've reached ONE flat earther and it'll make it OK lol  For just one person to say "actually yeah that makes total sense!"

But apparently an alternate theory for sunrise/sunset is about "magnetism bending light"!??! And the only details i get were "pfft you need to read zetetic writings"... Can't find ANYTHING on it anywhere... So we can give very very simple explanations for why they're wrong, but they're allowed to introduce scientifically revolutionary ideas and not provide any links to research or experimental evidence of any type... I'm starting to realise you're right Westprog: i am deluded! It's somewhat addictive though.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 08:53:13 AM by SiDawg »
Quote from: Round Eyes
Long range, high altitude, potentially solar powered airplanes [...] If the planes are travelling approx 15 miles about earth, that works out to around 2,200 mph, or Mach 3

Offline Westprog

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2018, 09:37:26 AM »
I'm starting to realise you're right Westprog: i am deluded! It's somewhat addictive though.

I'm not saying that there's no merit in the arguments. It's allowed me to see some interesting topics in detail which help explain just why the global Earth is such an obvious and undeniable fact, rather than a scientific theory which needs propping up. It's also helped me to examine certain psychological states of denial, which are applicable in many other areas. It's good training for arguing a well-presented case.

If the aim is to convert people who believe in a flat Earth, though, it's pointless. Nobody will be convinced by the facts. The p-brane video is an excellent example. There are hundreds of people expressing admiration for what should be considered self-debunking.

Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2018, 04:05:20 PM »
Yes, and also notice that there isn't a single RE-defender that after reading the wiki, the forums, or watching any of their highly-coveted bullshit youtube videos became convinced that the Earth is flat. Hmmm...

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2018, 04:20:06 PM »
Yes, and also notice that there isn't a single RE-defender that after reading the wiki, the forums, or watching any of their highly-coveted bullshit youtube videos became convinced that the Earth is flat. Hmmm...
That's a very strange observation. Look, I get you don't like us, but to just outright claim we don't exist... how rude!

Overall, this thread is an excellent illustration of cognitive bias. You think that the debate has been won, so how dare there be people who disagree with you?!. It's a useless line of inquiry, and one that will at best be ignored, and at worst turn into two sides shouting "nuh uh!" over one another.

You've got the threads where the RE'ers seem to be ahead, and those are an absolute party. Then you've got the vast majority of threads that not many people engage with, because they've been discussed to death/the OP is simply lazy, resort to a particularly dishonest rhetoric, or because they've simply been missed. Then you have fantastic morsels like that guy who thought he's proven Texas and Japan are one and the same on the Round Earth and refused to acknowledge that his methodology is bunk. A fair few RE'ers were singing his accolades before the error came to light, too. Strangely enough, those threads are forgotten by those who really want to forget them.

You also mistake a reduction in interest from FE'ers to talk to you for a reduction of FE'ers on this site. These things happen in waves. Eventually, the shitposters will get bored and we'll be back to business as usual. In the meantime, you guys can enjoy your... whatever it is you're doing, and we'll just focus on other forms of outreach.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 04:27:22 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline Westprog

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2018, 04:38:21 PM »
Yes, and also notice that there isn't a single RE-defender that after reading the wiki, the forums, or watching any of their highly-coveted bullshit youtube videos became convinced that the Earth is flat. Hmmm...
That's a very strange observation. Look, I get you don't like us, but to just outright claim we don't exist... how rude!

Overall, this thread is an excellent illustration of cognitive bias. You think that the debate has been won, so how dare there be people who disagree with you?!. It's a useless line of inquiry, and one that will at best be ignored, and at worst turn into two sides shouting "nuh uh!" over one another.

You've got the threads where the RE'ers seem to be ahead, and those are an absolute party. Then you've got the vast majority of threads that not many people engage with, because they've been discussed to death, resort to a particularly dishonest rhetoric, or because they've simply been missed. Then you have fantastic morsels like that guy who thought he's proven Texas and Japan are one and the same on the Round Earth and refused to acknowledge that his methodology is bunk. A fair few RE'ers were singing his accolades before the error came to light, too. Strangely enough, those threads are forgotten by those who really want to forget them.

I think you're missing the fundamental issue. The advocates of the round Earth are, generally, willing to look at various experiments which would reveal evidence supporting or debunking their theories. For example, the claim that the horizon always rises to eye level can be tested, and there's various experiments proposed which will show whether or not this is true. But this is always something driven by the people wishing to test the theories, and to be bound by the results.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to admit that if a particular experiment failed to show a round Earth, given that all such experiments always do show a round Earth, most of us would be somewhat nonplussed. We'd re-examine the details of the experiment. If the experiment were performed by someone else, we'd want to verify that it was performed correctly. But we'd at least accept the idea of designing experiments to reveal the truth, and accepting that the truth is found by performing a series of experiments.

Would we believe historical accounts of experiments performed many years ago using suspect methodology. No, but we'd at least want to re-design the experiments and perform them again.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2018, 05:06:07 PM »
I think you're missing the fundamental issue. [...]
The latter seems by and large identical to how most Flat Earthers operate, while the former is fairly rare, but easily observed among FE'ers and RE'ers alike. Granted, if you spend too much time looking at loonies on YouTube, you could probably develop a particularly bad opinion of either group. However, if you choose to interpret the world based on such broad generalisations, I would argue that it is you who's missing a fundamental issue.

It is extremely tempting to paint your in-group as the "good guys" and the out-group as the ignorant bunch. It's just not particularly helpful to anyone.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 05:08:00 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2018, 05:23:20 PM »
Look, I get you don't like us

Not a question of dislike, merely disagreement.

Overall, this thread is an excellent illustration of cognitive bias. You think that the debate has been won, so how dare there be people who disagree with you?!.

Funny, that seems to be EXACTLY the attitude displayed by Parallax, Bishop, et al ...

Eventually, the shitposters will get bored and we'll be back to business as usual.

What IS 'business as usual' here?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2018, 05:26:47 PM »
Not a question of dislike, merely disagreement.
This was aimed at Obviously, specifically. I'd say his recent posts show a pretty clear distaste, mixed with some latent anger.

Funny, that seems to be EXACTLY the attitude displayed by Parallax, Bishop, et al ...
Parallax is a complete newcomer, and one I haven't really seen much of. As such, I'll refrain from commenting. Tom, well, he's always gonna be Tom. We love him just the way he is.

Notably, however, my suggestion that many RE'ers suffer from this mentality is not in any way meant to imply that no FE'ers ever share this problem. That would be crazy.

What IS 'business as usual' here?
Stay awhile and listen. When the peanut gallery calms down a bit, we should be able to go back to having relatively reasoned discussions. It's the atmosphere that's currently still mostly present in boards like PR&S or A&E - ones that don't get trollhammered quite so hard.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2018, 05:42:25 PM »
Stay awhile and listen. When the peanut gallery calms down a bit, we should be able to go back to having relatively reasoned discussions.

Have you read through the forum posts here? Pretty sure every post ends about the same, as I described earlier, and the point of this thread is to point that out. I don't think flatheads are capable of "reasoned discussions". You, for example, never contribute any counter-arguments, just snide remarks that try to show how clever you supposedly are :)

Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2018, 05:47:15 PM »
This was aimed at Obviously, specifically. I'd say his recent posts show a pretty clear distaste, mixed with some latent anger.

Of course they do, because these are the only emotions the FE hoax and its followers are worthy of, and this very forum shows why. And this isn't just me, if you haven't noticed: people who pay any attention to you (which is a very small percentage of the population, thank god) are pretty angry at how deaf & dumb you guys are. Given your lack of logic and understanding of basic physics, your comments and this entire website are distasteful indeed.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2018, 06:21:41 PM »
... Tom, well, he's always gonna be Tom. We love him just the way he is.

Really? What do you think he brings to the table?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2018, 06:30:38 PM »
Stay awhile and listen. When the peanut gallery calms down a bit, we should be able to go back to having relatively reasoned discussions. It's the atmosphere that's currently still mostly present in boards like PR&S or A&E - ones that don't get trollhammered quite so hard.

Be fair, there are enough RE people on here who do want to have some reasoned discussions.
There aren't many FE people engaging and those that do are either off their meds (J-man), probably trolls (Parallax) or Tom who combines a spectacular lack of knowledge with a unshakeable belief in his authority to talk about things he clearly has no understanding or (right now he's dividing days in a year by hours in a day and thinking the fact it's not a whole number means he's just proven Fermat's Last Theorem).
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Offline SiDawg

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2018, 11:26:30 PM »
So Pete, we can easily put this to the test: are you willing to accept that perspective doesn't work in the way Rowbotham or PBrane draw it? It is not simple a diagonal line drawn in an arbitrary position on a side view?
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Long range, high altitude, potentially solar powered airplanes [...] If the planes are travelling approx 15 miles about earth, that works out to around 2,200 mph, or Mach 3

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Offline kasai

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2018, 03:14:47 PM »
We've won like 80% of them. But for ignorant round-heads like you, you guys just end up quitting the debate in frustration.

Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2018, 03:18:45 PM »
We've won like 80% of them. But for ignorant round-heads like you, you guys just end up quitting the debate in frustration.
Sounds like wishful thinking to me. How about this: you can list threads where the flatties won. For each one, I'll try to find another thread where the round-heads won.
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Offline kasai

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2018, 03:20:51 PM »
We've won like 80% of them. But for ignorant round-heads like you, you guys just end up quitting the debate in frustration.
Sounds like wishful thinking to me. How about this: you can list threads where the flatties won. For each one, I'll try to find another thread where the round-heads won.
People like you kill my braincells

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Offline kasai

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Re: Are flat-heads willing to admit that they are wrong?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2018, 03:28:52 PM »
..and why isn't the FE side "winning" a single thread in the Debate forum?

Scrolling through pages after pages of the forum, I see the remains of many great threads that utterly destroy the FE myth. In most of them all the FE questions, misunderstandings, and objections have been addressed. I get that there are only a few flat-heads left here to reply to forum posts, and we're all very grateful for your efforts, but you'd at least hope to see some threads where the RE side is losing...
It's very ignorant for you to even say we lost most. Threads that have been utterly destroyed? You mean threads like a bridge that proves the curvature of the Earth? (Debunked). I mean we have threads like the one in my Signature down below that literally takes the studies of a round-head called Eratosthenes and literally use his "Circumference math" to prove the flat earth. (I recommend reading it)