Yaakov ben Avraham

The British Empire brought civilisation.
« on: December 04, 2013, 04:53:15 PM »
Greetings. I thought I would start this topic in order to see what the overall thought is. So here goes. I'm reading the collected works of Sir Henry Rider Haggard, who lived in England & S. Africa during the late 19th & early 20th Centuries. He wrote over 50 best selling adventure novels. The character of Allen Quatermain was an inspiration for Indiana Jones. Haggard wrote during the glory of the British Empire, when people were proud to be British, & to go out & conquer 1/4 of the world, & bring civilisation to those who needed it most. A far cry from modern Britishers, who, like most Caucasians, are too busy apologising for being such! So, the thrust of this is that the British Empire & the Pax Britannica was one of the best things the world ever saw. Any thoughts on this?

Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2013, 04:57:34 PM »
To what areas of the world did they "bring civilization" to, and what makes the prior laws and customs of the people who came under British control not definitive of civilization for them?
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2013, 05:05:51 PM »
It's a shaky one, while the British did "Build the railways" as people tend to say about India, it wasn't necessarily for the natives' benefit. The railys in India, for instance were built to transport troops more efficiently into the country and raw materials out. This resulted in famines and an untrained and de-skilled population forced to buy British imports

The 'civilisation' which was brought was enforced at the end of a gun for the benefit of the British and Indian upper-classes.


But then, the situation wasn't too rosy at home, either. Britain may have owned a quarter of the globe, but the lower classes in Britain didn't really see much of it.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2013, 05:15:19 PM »
Well, lets look @ Africa. It was a mess of constant wars & savagery before the British arrived, & since they left! Only under British rule was there prosperity & peace. I'll grant that this benefited chiefly the upper crust, but that was the case all over the world, not just Britain & its Empire. I'll have to go for a bit, but I'll be back this afternoon. I'll respond to new posts then.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 05:19:27 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2013, 06:15:28 PM »
When was there peace and prosperity in Africa? 
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2013, 06:29:48 PM »
Well, lets look @ Africa. It was a mess of constant wars & savagery before the British arrived, & since they left! Only under British rule was there prosperity & peace. I'll grant that this benefited chiefly the upper crust, but that was the case all over the world, not just Britain & its Empire. I'll have to go for a bit, but I'll be back this afternoon. I'll respond to new posts then.

Do you have any idea how often the British empire was at war with other European nations during that age?
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.

Offline spank86

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Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 06:40:39 PM »
to go out & conquer 1/4 of the world, & bring civilisation to those who needed it most.

ahem, 1/3rd.

don't do us down.  :P



To what areas of the world did they "bring civilization" to, and what makes the prior laws and customs of the people who came under British control not definitive of civilization for them?

The cult of Thuggee and the practice of burning wives on their husbands funeral pyre spring to mind.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2013, 08:15:35 PM »
Spank, I was thinking of both. Wife burning was declared illegal in 1864 during the early years of the British Raj, & the Thuggees were wiped out in the 1870's. Britain did not have any wars w/ European states between 1815 & 1914. The Pax Britannica lasted 99 yrs. They did have to pacify natives & Boers in S. Africa, of course. During British rule in Africa, the natives were prevented from fighting each other, admittedly @ gunpoint. Under British rule, Southern Rhodesia was the breadbasket of Africa. Today, the nation (now called Zimbabwe) can't even feed itself. 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 08:17:58 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 09:14:21 PM »
"Pacify the natives ". How nice. You seem to have forgotten the Crimean War in the 1800s as well.   S. Africa is hardly what one would call a peaceful nation under British rule. There are many who make arguments that Britains blind attempt at homogenizing its colonies local ethnicities greatly contributed to events like the Rwandan genocide.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline spank86

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Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2013, 09:22:44 PM »
"Pacify the natives ". How nice. You seem to have forgotten the Crimean War in the 1800s as well.   S. Africa is hardly what one would call a peaceful nation under British rule. There are many who make arguments that Britains blind attempt at homogenizing its colonies local ethnicities greatly contributed to events like the Rwandan genocide.

I'd say that's more because we didn't get a chance to finish than anything else.

Funny how we get flack for both dividing India/Pakistan down religious lines and NOT dividing Africa among tribal ones.

Make your minds up people.




It's also worth noting that neither India nor Africa were peaceful tranquil places prior to our arrival. Nor were large swathes of them precisely independent.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2013, 09:30:40 PM »
You are right about the Crimean War. On that point I stand corrected. Rwanda & Burundi were French-ruled, I believe. Aside from that, Spank is right.

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Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2013, 10:48:43 PM »
"Pacify the natives ". How nice. You seem to have forgotten the Crimean War in the 1800s as well.   S. Africa is hardly what one would call a peaceful nation under British rule. There are many who make arguments that Britains blind attempt at homogenizing its colonies local ethnicities greatly contributed to events like the Rwandan genocide.

I'd say that's more because we didn't get a chance to finish than anything else.

Funny how we get flack for both dividing India/Pakistan down religious lines and NOT dividing Africa among tribal ones.

Make your minds up people.




It's also worth noting that neither India nor Africa were peaceful tranquil places prior to our arrival. Nor were large swathes of them precisely independent.

Well you only get flack because colonization through empire has never been very good for those getting colonized is it?  I do not doubt that these places were violent before but claiming that Britain brought peace through superior firepower is not particularly accurate.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2013, 11:01:56 PM »
I see nothing wrong w/ pacifying people that need it. Think how many could have been saved in Rwanda had the French been in charge in '94. Chances are, the mess would have never started. But if it had, it would have been stopped by means of the French Foreign Legion, I expect, which has only lost 1 engagement in its 180-odd year history (Dien van Phu [sp?] in 1954). Think how many countries the US pacifies (or tries to) in the 20th & 21st Centuries! We aren't very good @ it though. The British were.

Offline spank86

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Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2013, 11:05:23 PM »
"Pacify the natives ". How nice. You seem to have forgotten the Crimean War in the 1800s as well.   S. Africa is hardly what one would call a peaceful nation under British rule. There are many who make arguments that Britains blind attempt at homogenizing its colonies local ethnicities greatly contributed to events like the Rwandan genocide.

I'd say that's more because we didn't get a chance to finish than anything else.

Funny how we get flack for both dividing India/Pakistan down religious lines and NOT dividing Africa among tribal ones.

Make your minds up people.




It's also worth noting that neither India nor Africa were peaceful tranquil places prior to our arrival. Nor were large swathes of them precisely independent.

Well you only get flack because colonization through empire has never been very good for those getting colonized is it?  I do not doubt that these places were violent before but claiming that Britain brought peace through superior firepower is not particularly accurate.

depends on your definition of peace.

I mean everywhere has crime and punishment and the world was a much more violent place in those days.

For a large number of Indians it was a pretty damn good thing.

Those that didn't die from cross border raids between principalities and the merchant middle classes that is.

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Offline Excelsior John

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Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2013, 12:28:19 AM »
Greetings. I thought I would start this topic in order to see what the overall thought is. So here goes. I'm reading the collected works of Sir Henry Rider Haggard, who lived in England & S. Africa during the late 19th & early 20th Centuries. He wrote over 50 best selling adventure novels. The character of Allen Quatermain was an inspiration for Indiana Jones. Haggard wrote during the glory of the British Empire, when people were proud to be British, & to go out & conquer 1/4 of the world, & bring civilisation to those who needed it most. A far cry from modern Britishers, who, like most Caucasians, are too busy apologising for being such! So, the thrust of this is that the British Empire & the Pax Britannica was one of the best things the world ever saw. Any thoughts on this?
You mean the empire of prejidice and hate? Yeah. One of the gretest things the world has ever seen along with the holacaust and slavary :D!!!!!!!!!!!! Pff ::)
Viva la FES!
Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham link=https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=59968.msg1544396#msg1544396
Excelsior:...You are clearly a reasonable and intelligent person.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2013, 12:34:05 AM »
3 spelling errors in 1 paragraph.

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Offline Excelsior John

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Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2013, 12:37:03 AM »
3 spelling errors in 1 paragraph.
Your point? Moron
Viva la FES!
Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham link=https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=59968.msg1544396#msg1544396
Excelsior:...You are clearly a reasonable and intelligent person.

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Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2013, 12:38:18 AM »
Your point? Moron

C'mon, EJ.  No need to do that here.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2013, 12:41:52 AM »
My point? That someone who writes like a 3rd grader can't be taken seriously.

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Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2013, 01:03:25 AM »
"Pacify the natives ". How nice. You seem to have forgotten the Crimean War in the 1800s as well.   S. Africa is hardly what one would call a peaceful nation under British rule. There are many who make arguments that Britains blind attempt at homogenizing its colonies local ethnicities greatly contributed to events like the Rwandan genocide.

I'd say that's more because we didn't get a chance to finish than anything else.

Funny how we get flack for both dividing India/Pakistan down religious lines and NOT dividing Africa among tribal ones.

Make your minds up people.




It's also worth noting that neither India nor Africa were peaceful tranquil places prior to our arrival. Nor were large swathes of them precisely independent.

Well you only get flack because colonization through empire has never been very good for those getting colonized is it?  I do not doubt that these places were violent before but claiming that Britain brought peace through superior firepower is not particularly accurate.

depends on your definition of peace.

I mean everywhere has crime and punishment and the world was a much more violent place in those days.

For a large number of Indians it was a pretty damn good thing.

Those that didn't die from cross border raids between principalities and the merchant middle classes that is.

I see nothing wrong w/ pacifying people that need it. Think how many could have been saved in Rwanda had the French been in charge in '94. Chances are, the mess would have never started. But if it had, it would have been stopped by means of the French Foreign Legion, I expect, which has only lost 1 engagement in its 180-odd year history (Dien van Phu [sp?] in 1954). Think how many countries the US pacifies (or tries to) in the 20th & 21st Centuries! We aren't very good @ it though. The British were.

I think you suffer from a major case of historical bias. Intervening can have very mixed effects.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.