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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 04, 2013, 04:53:15 PM

Title: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 04, 2013, 04:53:15 PM
Greetings. I thought I would start this topic in order to see what the overall thought is. So here goes. I'm reading the collected works of Sir Henry Rider Haggard, who lived in England & S. Africa during the late 19th & early 20th Centuries. He wrote over 50 best selling adventure novels. The character of Allen Quatermain was an inspiration for Indiana Jones. Haggard wrote during the glory of the British Empire, when people were proud to be British, & to go out & conquer 1/4 of the world, & bring civilisation to those who needed it most. A far cry from modern Britishers, who, like most Caucasians, are too busy apologising for being such! So, the thrust of this is that the British Empire & the Pax Britannica was one of the best things the world ever saw. Any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 04, 2013, 04:57:34 PM
To what areas of the world did they "bring civilization" to, and what makes the prior laws and customs of the people who came under British control not definitive of civilization for them?
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 04, 2013, 05:05:51 PM
It's a shaky one, while the British did "Build the railways" as people tend to say about India, it wasn't necessarily for the natives' benefit. The railys in India, for instance were built to transport troops more efficiently into the country and raw materials out. This resulted in famines and an untrained and de-skilled population forced to buy British imports

The 'civilisation' which was brought was enforced at the end of a gun for the benefit of the British and Indian upper-classes.


But then, the situation wasn't too rosy at home, either. Britain may have owned a quarter of the globe, but the lower classes in Britain didn't really see much of it.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 04, 2013, 05:15:19 PM
Well, lets look @ Africa. It was a mess of constant wars & savagery before the British arrived, & since they left! Only under British rule was there prosperity & peace. I'll grant that this benefited chiefly the upper crust, but that was the case all over the world, not just Britain & its Empire. I'll have to go for a bit, but I'll be back this afternoon. I'll respond to new posts then.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rama Set on December 04, 2013, 06:15:28 PM
When was there peace and prosperity in Africa? 
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 04, 2013, 06:29:48 PM
Well, lets look @ Africa. It was a mess of constant wars & savagery before the British arrived, & since they left! Only under British rule was there prosperity & peace. I'll grant that this benefited chiefly the upper crust, but that was the case all over the world, not just Britain & its Empire. I'll have to go for a bit, but I'll be back this afternoon. I'll respond to new posts then.

Do you have any idea how often the British empire was at war with other European nations during that age?
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: spank86 on December 04, 2013, 06:40:39 PM
to go out & conquer 1/4 of the world, & bring civilisation to those who needed it most.

ahem, 1/3rd.

don't do us down.  :P



To what areas of the world did they "bring civilization" to, and what makes the prior laws and customs of the people who came under British control not definitive of civilization for them?

The cult of Thuggee and the practice of burning wives on their husbands funeral pyre spring to mind.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 04, 2013, 08:15:35 PM
Spank, I was thinking of both. Wife burning was declared illegal in 1864 during the early years of the British Raj, & the Thuggees were wiped out in the 1870's. Britain did not have any wars w/ European states between 1815 & 1914. The Pax Britannica lasted 99 yrs. They did have to pacify natives & Boers in S. Africa, of course. During British rule in Africa, the natives were prevented from fighting each other, admittedly @ gunpoint. Under British rule, Southern Rhodesia was the breadbasket of Africa. Today, the nation (now called Zimbabwe) can't even feed itself. 
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rama Set on December 04, 2013, 09:14:21 PM
"Pacify the natives ". How nice. You seem to have forgotten the Crimean War in the 1800s as well.   S. Africa is hardly what one would call a peaceful nation under British rule. There are many who make arguments that Britains blind attempt at homogenizing its colonies local ethnicities greatly contributed to events like the Rwandan genocide.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: spank86 on December 04, 2013, 09:22:44 PM
"Pacify the natives ". How nice. You seem to have forgotten the Crimean War in the 1800s as well.   S. Africa is hardly what one would call a peaceful nation under British rule. There are many who make arguments that Britains blind attempt at homogenizing its colonies local ethnicities greatly contributed to events like the Rwandan genocide.

I'd say that's more because we didn't get a chance to finish than anything else.

Funny how we get flack for both dividing India/Pakistan down religious lines and NOT dividing Africa among tribal ones.

Make your minds up people.




It's also worth noting that neither India nor Africa were peaceful tranquil places prior to our arrival. Nor were large swathes of them precisely independent.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 04, 2013, 09:30:40 PM
You are right about the Crimean War. On that point I stand corrected. Rwanda & Burundi were French-ruled, I believe. Aside from that, Spank is right.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rama Set on December 04, 2013, 10:48:43 PM
"Pacify the natives ". How nice. You seem to have forgotten the Crimean War in the 1800s as well.   S. Africa is hardly what one would call a peaceful nation under British rule. There are many who make arguments that Britains blind attempt at homogenizing its colonies local ethnicities greatly contributed to events like the Rwandan genocide.

I'd say that's more because we didn't get a chance to finish than anything else.

Funny how we get flack for both dividing India/Pakistan down religious lines and NOT dividing Africa among tribal ones.

Make your minds up people.




It's also worth noting that neither India nor Africa were peaceful tranquil places prior to our arrival. Nor were large swathes of them precisely independent.

Well you only get flack because colonization through empire has never been very good for those getting colonized is it?  I do not doubt that these places were violent before but claiming that Britain brought peace through superior firepower is not particularly accurate.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 04, 2013, 11:01:56 PM
I see nothing wrong w/ pacifying people that need it. Think how many could have been saved in Rwanda had the French been in charge in '94. Chances are, the mess would have never started. But if it had, it would have been stopped by means of the French Foreign Legion, I expect, which has only lost 1 engagement in its 180-odd year history (Dien van Phu [sp?] in 1954). Think how many countries the US pacifies (or tries to) in the 20th & 21st Centuries! We aren't very good @ it though. The British were.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: spank86 on December 04, 2013, 11:05:23 PM
"Pacify the natives ". How nice. You seem to have forgotten the Crimean War in the 1800s as well.   S. Africa is hardly what one would call a peaceful nation under British rule. There are many who make arguments that Britains blind attempt at homogenizing its colonies local ethnicities greatly contributed to events like the Rwandan genocide.

I'd say that's more because we didn't get a chance to finish than anything else.

Funny how we get flack for both dividing India/Pakistan down religious lines and NOT dividing Africa among tribal ones.

Make your minds up people.




It's also worth noting that neither India nor Africa were peaceful tranquil places prior to our arrival. Nor were large swathes of them precisely independent.

Well you only get flack because colonization through empire has never been very good for those getting colonized is it?  I do not doubt that these places were violent before but claiming that Britain brought peace through superior firepower is not particularly accurate.

depends on your definition of peace.

I mean everywhere has crime and punishment and the world was a much more violent place in those days.

For a large number of Indians it was a pretty damn good thing.

Those that didn't die from cross border raids between principalities and the merchant middle classes that is.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Excelsior John on December 05, 2013, 12:28:19 AM
Greetings. I thought I would start this topic in order to see what the overall thought is. So here goes. I'm reading the collected works of Sir Henry Rider Haggard, who lived in England & S. Africa during the late 19th & early 20th Centuries. He wrote over 50 best selling adventure novels. The character of Allen Quatermain was an inspiration for Indiana Jones. Haggard wrote during the glory of the British Empire, when people were proud to be British, & to go out & conquer 1/4 of the world, & bring civilisation to those who needed it most. A far cry from modern Britishers, who, like most Caucasians, are too busy apologising for being such! So, the thrust of this is that the British Empire & the Pax Britannica was one of the best things the world ever saw. Any thoughts on this?
You mean the empire of prejidice and hate? Yeah. One of the gretest things the world has ever seen along with the holacaust and slavary :D!!!!!!!!!!!! Pff ::)
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 12:34:05 AM
3 spelling errors in 1 paragraph.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Excelsior John on December 05, 2013, 12:37:03 AM
3 spelling errors in 1 paragraph.
Your point? Moron
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: junker on December 05, 2013, 12:38:18 AM
Your point? Moron

C'mon, EJ.  No need to do that here.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 12:41:52 AM
My point? That someone who writes like a 3rd grader can't be taken seriously.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rama Set on December 05, 2013, 01:03:25 AM
"Pacify the natives ". How nice. You seem to have forgotten the Crimean War in the 1800s as well.   S. Africa is hardly what one would call a peaceful nation under British rule. There are many who make arguments that Britains blind attempt at homogenizing its colonies local ethnicities greatly contributed to events like the Rwandan genocide.

I'd say that's more because we didn't get a chance to finish than anything else.

Funny how we get flack for both dividing India/Pakistan down religious lines and NOT dividing Africa among tribal ones.

Make your minds up people.




It's also worth noting that neither India nor Africa were peaceful tranquil places prior to our arrival. Nor were large swathes of them precisely independent.

Well you only get flack because colonization through empire has never been very good for those getting colonized is it?  I do not doubt that these places were violent before but claiming that Britain brought peace through superior firepower is not particularly accurate.

depends on your definition of peace.

I mean everywhere has crime and punishment and the world was a much more violent place in those days.

For a large number of Indians it was a pretty damn good thing.

Those that didn't die from cross border raids between principalities and the merchant middle classes that is.

I see nothing wrong w/ pacifying people that need it. Think how many could have been saved in Rwanda had the French been in charge in '94. Chances are, the mess would have never started. But if it had, it would have been stopped by means of the French Foreign Legion, I expect, which has only lost 1 engagement in its 180-odd year history (Dien van Phu [sp?] in 1954). Think how many countries the US pacifies (or tries to) in the 20th & 21st Centuries! We aren't very good @ it though. The British were.

I think you suffer from a major case of historical bias. Intervening can have very mixed effects.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 01:36:55 AM
It can if done poorly, the way the US does it. Britain was much wiser, usually.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rushy on December 05, 2013, 02:04:32 AM
Uhh no. The British brought British civilization, not civilization in general. "Civilization" is not some objective entity that you can slap onto a location. The British damn sure made the world more British and while it could be worse, it could be a hell of a lot better.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 02:28:51 AM
Well, Irush, that depends how you look @ things. British civilisation, while not perfect, is certainly better than the ones it displaced (if most of those can be called civilisations; I would say most cannot, save the Indian, & their culture was improved upon). So there you are.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rushy on December 05, 2013, 02:33:21 AM
What are you defining as the qualities that make British civilization better than what was already there?
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: spank86 on December 05, 2013, 02:59:05 AM
3 spelling errors in 1 paragraph.
Your point? Moron

yes, it probably was.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: spank86 on December 05, 2013, 03:01:08 AM
"Pacify the natives ". How nice. You seem to have forgotten the Crimean War in the 1800s as well.   S. Africa is hardly what one would call a peaceful nation under British rule. There are many who make arguments that Britains blind attempt at homogenizing its colonies local ethnicities greatly contributed to events like the Rwandan genocide.

I'd say that's more because we didn't get a chance to finish than anything else.

Funny how we get flack for both dividing India/Pakistan down religious lines and NOT dividing Africa among tribal ones.

Make your minds up people.




It's also worth noting that neither India nor Africa were peaceful tranquil places prior to our arrival. Nor were large swathes of them precisely independent.

Well you only get flack because colonization through empire has never been very good for those getting colonized is it?  I do not doubt that these places were violent before but claiming that Britain brought peace through superior firepower is not particularly accurate.

depends on your definition of peace.

I mean everywhere has crime and punishment and the world was a much more violent place in those days.

For a large number of Indians it was a pretty damn good thing.

Those that didn't die from cross border raids between principalities and the merchant middle classes that is.

I see nothing wrong w/ pacifying people that need it. Think how many could have been saved in Rwanda had the French been in charge in '94. Chances are, the mess would have never started. But if it had, it would have been stopped by means of the French Foreign Legion, I expect, which has only lost 1 engagement in its 180-odd year history (Dien van Phu [sp?] in 1954). Think how many countries the US pacifies (or tries to) in the 20th & 21st Centuries! We aren't very good @ it though. The British were.

I think you suffer from a major case of historical bias. Intervening can have very mixed effects.

I never claimed it wasn't mixed, merely that for a lot it was better and i believe it would have been better still had it not been ended abruptly.

If you look at ex imperial territories you can more or less rank them from most to least successful based on the length of time we were in charge (USA begin a slight anomaly)
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 03:06:34 AM
Well, a written language, for 1. Most cultures the British displaced didn't write. Government, for 2. Most cultures displaced were absolute monarchies functioning as dictatorships. Laws, for 3. If India had been ruled by Germany or Russia or China (or by many of her own native Princes!), Gandhi would have been done in w/i 5 minutes! He did what he did because he had inalienable rights under British law. Those are just a few examples. I could go on, but that should suffice.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rushy on December 05, 2013, 03:16:39 AM
Well, a written language, for 1. Most cultures the British displaced didn't write.

Give me one native civilization the British took over that didn't have a written language.

Government, for 2. Most cultures displaced were absolute monarchies functioning as dictatorships.

And the British weren't? What British are you referring to?

3. If India had been ruled by Germany or Russia or China (or by many of her own native Princes!), Gandhi would have been done in w/i 5 minutes! He did what he did because he had inalienable rights under British law. Those are just a few examples. I could go on, but that should suffice.

None of those places would have enslaved an entire country in the first place.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rama Set on December 05, 2013, 03:18:02 AM
Well, Irush, that depends how you look @ things. British civilisation, while not perfect, is certainly better than the ones it displaced (if most of those can be called civilisations; I would say most cannot, save the Indian, & their culture was improved upon). So there you are.

This is more racist than gentile is.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 03:35:30 AM
Xhosa was not a written language. Nor were most sub-Saharan African languages before European contact. Britain had established parliamentary democracy early in the Imperial period. Victoria was hardly an absolute monarch.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rushy on December 05, 2013, 03:50:33 AM
Xhosa was not a written language. Nor were most sub-Saharan African languages before European contact. Britain had established parliamentary democracy early in the Imperial period. Victoria was hardly an absolute monarch.

Missionaries made Xhosa a written language, they were there before the British came along.

http://www.alsintl.com/resources/languages/Xhosa/

Britain had established parliamentary democracy early in the Imperial period. Victoria was hardly an absolute monarch.

The parliament during most of the British empire's years is not the sort of parliament you think of today. It existed as more or less advisors to the current monarch, the monarch could still do whatever s/he wished with tyrannical power.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 04:11:27 AM
It still took European missionaries to make it a written tongue. Parliament, by the time of Victoria, had become a fairly representative body w/ political power. Even as far back as Henry VIII, tyrant though he was, Parliament controlled money, & stopped Henry from @ least 1 war. By the time of the Glorious Revolution in 1688, when they 'invited' the Catholic King James II to abdicate, and kindly offered the throne to his Protestant daughter Mary II, & her husband William the Stadholder, they had proven themselves stronger than monarchs. It is true that the franchise was limited til the latter half of the 19th Century, but nobody's perfect. The fact that the franchise even existed was a step up from most countries.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rushy on December 05, 2013, 04:13:55 AM
It still took European missionaries to make it a written tongue.

In other words, the British didn't do anything. Thanks for pointing that out.

Parliament, by the time of Victoria, had become a fairly representative body w/ political power. Even as far back as Henry VIII, tyrant though he was, Parliament controlled money, & stopped Henry from @ least 1 war. By the time of the Glorious Revolution in 1688, when they 'invited' the Catholic King James II to abdicate, and kindly offered the throne to his Protestant daughter Mary II, & her husband William the Stadholder, they had proven themselves stronger than monarchs. It is true that the franchise was limited til the latter half of the 19th Century, but nobody's perfect. The fact that the franchise even existed was a step up from most countries.

The parliament had little power and was almost non-stop corrupted by tyrants. That hardly counts as very civilized, even by Britain's own standards.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 04:22:38 AM
British history begs to differ with you. Inviting a king to leave and appointing a new one is hardly powerless. And by the Victorian Age, the height of Britain's power and prestige, she held very little power. Have to smoke my cigar. Back in an hour or so.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 05, 2013, 08:57:53 AM
My point? That someone who writes like a 3rd grader can't be taken seriously.

Then stop replying and taking him seriously.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: spank86 on December 05, 2013, 11:29:59 AM
None of those places would have enslaved an entire country in the first place.

Are you kidding?

Germany had African colonies too, Tanganyika springs to mind,

China is currently occupying Tibet against it's will,

and Russia was pretty much enslaving it's own country plus I take it you never heard of Russian America (how do you think they sold Alaska to the Americans)?

Face it, we weren't unique, we were just the best at it.


Missionaries made Xhosa a written language, they were there before the British came along.

British missionaries in large part.

Thats the form of the empire in general, spearheaded by traders and missionaries and the army rolled in when things got nasty. If the natives played nice and signed trade agreements the army didn't have to roll in at all.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 05, 2013, 11:43:10 AM
The whole process of colonialism, from England, Spain, portugal, Germany, Russia, Scotland (Look up Panama's history and laugh) was a process of robbing blind the land and people whilst flooding it with 'civilisation' in the form of products and businesses still controlled by their colonial masters. For examples of British arsiness, you don't have to go any further than Ireland.

That isn't to say there weren't any benefits - there's a reason why India and co remain in the Commonwealth.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 02:42:00 PM
I do not deny that Britain had more than just altruistic reasons to go and create empire. But, while those reasons were many and varied, and not all admirable, overall, the British experience was a positive one, hence the existence of the Commonwealth, which includes one nation that was never a part of the Empire, namely Mozambique, which was controlled by the Portuguese. But recently they signed up for the Commonwealth. Why? To take advantage of the aspects of British civilisation that so many of Britain's former colonies have been able to benefit from.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 05:28:09 PM
Well, & as re: Germany, they created their first concentration camps in what is today Namibia. When the natives revolted due to the Germans' brutal treatment, the Germans proceeded to kill 50% of one tribe (the smaller of the 2 major ethnic groups in the area), & 80% of the larger. & the camps were every bit as bad as the ones during WWII. The Belgians in what is now the DR of Congo were as bad. The land (77 X larger than Belgium itself) was re: as the king's personal property, & every native in it as his slave. The Belgians' interesting ways of 'disciplining' (ie, torturing) recalcitrant natives included cutting Achilles tendons to prevent escape, smashing ankles for the same purpose, & other horrific acts that would never have been tolerated by British authorities. Not to say that abuse never happened under the British. It did, but it was never the norm, & was stopped when learned about. In the Congo, it was the natural state of things.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: spank86 on December 05, 2013, 05:33:51 PM
I think one of the worst acts of the British empire (as distinguished from the east India company) was our construction of "concentration camps" during the boer war. Originally designed simply to cut off the flow of support to Boer guerrillas by concentrating their civilian base into a small guarded area, neglect and general lack of interest in their welfare resulted in massive deaths due to starvation/malnutrition and disease.

Oddly that's one we've never apologized for, however that's not to say the Boers were very nice people. they weren't. It's manly due to the need to placate them after the war that such virulent racism was allowed to continue and flourish in south Africa leading to most of it's problems since (not to say there wasn't a degree of racism inherent in the empire but there's racism, and then there's racism).

Unfortunately a short term easy solution created long term problems.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 05:41:01 PM
Well, Spank, there's no argument there. The treatment of the Boers was inexcusable by anyone's standards, including Britain's own. Granted the Boers used to shoot natives for sport. They were nothing nice. The first thing the British had to stop when they arrived in S. Africa was that practice of shooting down natives like dogs for fun. That still does not excuse the camps, though. Boers were nothing nice, but treating them that way was unconsionable.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 05, 2013, 05:41:48 PM
You know that britain had what amounted to concentration camps around its empire, right? Especially in Africa during the Boer War.

EDIT: spank beat me to it

Amongst other atrocities were the massacres of civilians around the globe :
Jallianwala Bagh - India
Bloody Sunday - Ireland
Bombing of civilians in Iraq under British rule
Batang Kali massacre - Malaysia

etc etc.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: spank86 on December 05, 2013, 05:45:49 PM
You'll note most of those took place during the dying days of the empire.

The Amritsar massacre in particular was not typical and was mostly down to a severely misguided commander.

Bloody Sunday was the result of using poorly trained military as police, never gonna end well. It was also an extremely poor tactical decision.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 05:46:59 PM
Granted, there were inexcusable acts. But, for example, the Amritsar Massacre was thoroughly investigated & people were punished. Not that that makes it ok! But @ least Britain did hold its military accountable for their conduct.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 07, 2013, 03:10:13 AM
I think Spank is right. The longer a place was controlled by Britain, the better off it seems to be, the US being the odd man out there. Part of it, though, is the following: in nations predominantly British (or German-British in the USA), the countries are doing better than ones w/ fewer Europeans. The UK itself, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, the USA. This isn't to say that Whites are ethnically better, but that their culture is, @ any rate.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rama Set on December 07, 2013, 01:26:37 PM
Did you leave the French out of that list for a specific reason?
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 07, 2013, 02:21:12 PM
Well, I was only referring to countries that had been ruled by Britain. Parts of France were (after all, English Kings used the style 'King of England & France, & Lord of Ireland' until the accession of James I, & Henry VI had been crowned King of France in Paris), but it was back when England herself was one of 3 nations in the British Isles (Wales had been controlled by England for awhile). Both England & France were nation-building, & English rule of part of France was part of that country growing a pair & booting England out under Joan of Arc. The point is that France didn't get colonised like say, India. When the English left, they hadn't radically changed French government, culture, or language like they did in Canada, Australia, etc.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rama Set on December 07, 2013, 08:59:08 PM
You mentioned Germany as an important influence on the States, what about France?  France was even more important in the development of Canada.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rushy on December 07, 2013, 09:10:59 PM
All the non-terrible British people left when the United States came into being. Only the idiots were left on the island, resulting in a propagation of idiocy and the downfall of the British empire.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 07, 2013, 09:14:03 PM
Rama, you are quite right. I stand corrected.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: beardo on December 07, 2013, 11:37:28 PM
I'm going to rule the Empire of Britannia.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Lemon on December 07, 2013, 11:43:51 PM
I think Ireland could have done without Britain. We'd eventually have gotten to where we are, from observation of those around us, I think.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 07, 2013, 11:53:44 PM
To be honest, as pro- Imperialist as I may be, I admit, Ireland probably could have done w/o British rule. At least the Catholic section of it.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 11:25:51 AM
One can believe that workers should own the means of production & still believe in civilising people that need it.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: spank86 on December 08, 2013, 12:04:37 PM
I think Ireland could have done without Britain. We'd eventually have gotten to where we are, from observation of those around us, I think.

where you are being economically in the shit you mean?

Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on December 08, 2013, 02:30:44 PM
The British Empire had its bad points, but if it wasn't for Britain being as dominant as we were the world would probably have found another more dominant civilisation (possibly China etc...) which may not have promoted the things we take for granted in society today. Such as democracy and the freedom of speech.


Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rama Set on December 08, 2013, 02:34:11 PM
You sound like modern day Americans.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on December 08, 2013, 02:42:26 PM
You sound like modern day Americans.

What's a modern day American?
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Lemon on December 08, 2013, 03:43:10 PM
I think Ireland could have done without Britain. We'd eventually have gotten to where we are, from observation of those around us, I think.

where you are being economically in the shit you mean?

We're going to be in bits either way, Might as well suck under our own terms.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rama Set on December 08, 2013, 04:00:55 PM
You sound like modern day Americans.

What's a modern day American?

An American who lives in the modern day...
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: spank86 on December 08, 2013, 05:09:46 PM
You sound like modern day Americans.

There's a big difference between saying it when you look into the past and saying it when you look at the flaws of the present.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: markjo on December 09, 2013, 12:09:53 AM
Funny how we get flack for both dividing India/Pakistan down religious lines and NOT dividing Africa among tribal ones.

Make your minds up people.
Well, if you could learn how do draw borders that make sense, then maybe you wouldn't get so much flack.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: spank86 on December 09, 2013, 07:50:19 AM
Funny how we get flack for both dividing India/Pakistan down religious lines and NOT dividing Africa among tribal ones.

Make your minds up people.
Well, if you could learn how do draw borders that make sense, then maybe you wouldn't get so much flack.

I'm not sure there was one in India.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 02:48:30 PM
There wasn't a border in India. The borders drawn were NOT made by the British, but by Mohammed Ali Jinnah & Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. Where there was a Muslim majority, that was Pakistan (hence W. Pakistan & E. Pakistan, which later became Bangladesh). Where there was a Hindu majority became India. Where the situation was mixed, the state in question was allowed to choose. In Princely States, that meant the ruler choosing (hence Jammu & Kashmir going to India; the province is about 60% Muslim, but the Princely dynasty was Hindu). The only thing for the British to do was to approve the final decisions, which they did. The fact that there was no natural border is indicated by the fact that Punjab, home of the Sikhs, was divided in half. They weren't considered by either Muslims or Hindus. If India's borders had been drawn by the British, Punjab would probably be independent.
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 10, 2013, 03:04:50 AM
Well, it wasn't just the British who brought civilisation. The French did too. Looking @ the current situation in the Central African Republic, the French are having to go there to hopefully put an end to the mess going on. If they'd never left, this probably wouldn't have started!
Title: Re: The British Empire brought civilisation.
Post by: Rama Set on December 10, 2013, 05:57:41 PM
Well, it wasn't just the British who brought civilisation. The French did too. Looking @ the current situation in the Central African Republic, the French are having to go there to hopefully put an end to the mess going on. If they'd never left, this probably wouldn't have started!

Well thats impossible to know.  Perhaps it would have been replaced with an even worse situation.