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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2017, 09:06:01 PM »
Nothing.  The eclipse doesn't suddenly make it dangerous to look, it's always dangerous.  What the eclipse does is make it tempting to look.  Now that the eclipse is over, there's nothing to see and nobody is tempted to look.  But you could, on any day of the year, safely look at the sun with eclipse glasses.
This isn't just your usual kind of bring horribly wrong about everything. You're being wrong in ways that may potentially harm people if they listen to you. Luckily, your reputation here means it's unlikely anyone would take you seriously to begin with.

During an eclipse, your eyes receive much less visible light than they otherwise would from the sun, so your pupils dilate. But you're still exposed to an unsafe level of UV, which now goes straight into your eye and onto the retina. That's why looking at the sun during the eclipse unprotected is particularly dangerous. Do not do it.

There is also the issue of timing. Your pupil dilates massively during a total eclipse, so once the sun becomes visible again, it smashes your wide-open retina with an immense barrage of photons.

http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae586.cfm
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 09:09:59 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2017, 09:06:55 PM »
i'm personally sungazing uninterruptedly literally everyday for hour and a half with blinking. And still nothing happened to me, and i don't want anything happening to me.
Liar, liar, eyeballs on fire.

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Kids, Hmmm is either a troll or an idiot.  Please do not take his/her words seriously.
Rounder, i know that "kids" is just a locution, but it sounds so ironical, that you use it on the FE forum.
No, i'm sincere about being able capable of sungazing regularly for hours. It's not a problem for me.
I'm sure it's not, because I'm sure you're not actually doing it. 

Honestly dude, if you're going to troll at least try to be believable about it.

Or maybe this is you?
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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2017, 09:10:26 PM »
Nothing.  The eclipse doesn't suddenly make it dangerous to look, it's always dangerous.  What the eclipse does is make it tempting to look.  Now that the eclipse is over, there's nothing to see and nobody is tempted to look.  But you could, on any day of the year, safely look at the sun with eclipse glasses.
This isn't just your usual kind of bring horribly wrong about everything. You're being wrong in ways that may potentially harm people if they listen to you.

During an eclipse, your eyes receive much less visible light than they otherwise would from the sun, so your pupils dilate. But you're still exposed to an unsafe level of UV, which now goes straight into your eye and onto the retina. That's why looking at the sun during the eclipse unprotected is particularly dangerous. Do not do it.

There is also the issue of timing. Your pupil dilates massively during a total eclipse, so once the sun becomes visible again, it smashes your wide-open retina with an immense barrage of photons.

http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae586.cfm

Read it again.  I didn't say to look unprotected.
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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2017, 09:13:13 PM »
Read it again.  I didn't say to look unprotected.
You said "The eclipse doesn't suddenly make it dangerous to look, it's always dangerous." This is extremely wrong and extremely dangerous. Don't say it again, thanks.
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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2017, 09:15:07 PM »
Read it again.  I didn't say to look unprotected.
You said "The eclipse doesn't suddenly make it dangerous to look, it's always dangerous." This is extremely wrong and extremely dangerous. Don't say it again, thanks.
No, you're wrong.  Are you seriously going to disagree with the statement "it's always dangerous"?
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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2017, 09:17:50 PM »
No, you're wrong.  Are you seriously going to disagree with the statement "it's always dangerous"?
I'm going to do my best to protect the members of this forum from your extremely reckless allegation that "The eclipse doesn't suddenly make it dangerous to look". It does, in fact, make it much more dangerous to look. So much more dangerous that I can't help but suspect (especially now that you're defending this insanity) that you deliberately said otherwise in an attempt to cause harm.
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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2017, 09:28:20 PM »
No, you're wrong.  Are you seriously going to disagree with the statement "it's always dangerous"?
I'm going to do my best to protect the members of this forum from your extremely reckless allegation that "The eclipse doesn't suddenly make it dangerous to look". It does, in fact, make it much more dangerous to look. So much more dangerous that I can't help but suspect (especially now that you're defending this insanity) that you deliberately said otherwise in an attempt to cause harm.
He said the eclipse doesn't suddenly make it dangerous to look, it's always dangerous. That does not preclude the ability for the eclipse to make it more dangerous, it only precludes it NOT being dangerous when the eclipse isn't out. The eclipse making it more dangerous does not change the fact that it's always dangerous to look at the sun, nor does it change the fact the eclipse doesn't suddenly make it dangerous when it wasn't before. Those are the two points in the sentence. A) The sun isn't suddenly dangerous to look at just because there's an eclipse. Followed by the explanation B) The sun is always dangerous to look at. Nothing there makes it impossible or even really implies, that it can't be more dangerous to look during an eclipse.

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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2017, 10:35:26 PM »
To recap: the original question was "what makes the solar eclipse so special to the point that people can't look at it without having some sort of negative reaction?"  My reply was that it isn't about the eclipse, because it isn't ONLY during the eclipse that you can't look at the sun: you can't EVER look at the sun unprotected.  The eclipse doesn't cause the danger, the danger is always there; the eclipse causes people to WANT to look DESPITE the ever-present danger.  Any other day of the year, you don't have to tell people not to look at the sun, because most people aren't idiots and already know not to look at the sun.
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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2017, 10:37:24 PM »
I'm going to do my best to protect the members of this forum from your extremely reckless allegation that "The eclipse doesn't suddenly make it dangerous to look". It does, in fact, make it much more dangerous to look.
It doesn't, though.  BECAUSE IT'S ALWAYS DANGEROUS ALREADY

We are essentially arguing about "What is it about putting arsenic in tea that make arsenic so dangerous?"  It's not about the tea: arsenic is always deadly!  The tea just makes it easier to get the poison down.  For our discussion, it's not about the eclipse: looking at the sun is always dangerous!  The eclipse just makes it easier to forget that.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 10:39:59 PM by Rounder »
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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2017, 08:04:50 AM »
That does not preclude the ability for the eclipse to make it more dangerous, it only precludes it NOT being dangerous when the eclipse isn't out.
Rounder's statement of "The eclipse doesn't suddenly make it dangerous to look" does, in fact, directly contradict your defence. He did, openly and directly, state that the eclipse is no more dangerous than just looking at the sun on a normal day. That's an extremely dangerous thing to say if there's any risk of a random newcomer believing this known liar.

It doesn't, though.  BECAUSE IT'S ALWAYS DANGEROUS ALREADY
Touching a hot stove is mildly dangerous. You might get burnt. Jumping into a burning building is super dangerous. You might get burnt alive.

You're trying to equate the two by saying heat is always dangerous (except with a very revealing abuse of formatting). In doing so, you massively underrate the potential damage of staring at an eclipse, thus potentially making the threat seem acceptable to some.

It's appalling that you'd try to defend yourself over this rather than immediately apologise and delete your shite post. I now have no doubt that you're acting with harmful intent, and I will continue to bring this up in future encounters to warn others against your 4chan-esque games.

We are essentially arguing about "What is it about putting arsenic in tea that make arsenic so dangerous?"  It's not about the tea: arsenic is always deadly!  The tea just makes it easier to get the poison down.  For our discussion, it's not about the eclipse: looking at the sun is always dangerous!  The eclipse just makes it easier to forget that.
No. My first post here has already detailed two main ways (and that wasn't a comprehensive list) in which looking at an eclipse is inherently more dangerous than looking at the sun. Your attempts at denying that this has happened, and a simple restatement of your original dangerous suggestion are extremely telling. If this was a case of you just being uneducated, you would have already accepted the knowledge I served you on a golden platter. But what you want is to spread your falsity. Appalling.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 02:22:00 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2017, 04:15:48 PM »
What are you talking about, "harmful intent"?  I clearly and repeatedly said it was dangerous to look at the eclipse unprotected.  The fact that I don't agree with you about an eclipse being somehow super extra ultra dangerous, that's not the same as dismissing the very real danger.

it's always dangerous...I certainly hope nobody did what (Jai_mav) suggest.  I may argue and fight with you FE types, but that doesn't mean I actually bear you any ill will.  I definitely wouldn't wish blindness on any of you.

If you practice sungazing regularly, the eclipse won't do nothing to your vision
Kids, Hmmm is either a troll or an idiot.  Please do not take his/her words seriously.

Tell you what, I'll make it plain in case somebody else misunderstood me as Pete has:
Do not EVER, under ANY circumstances, look at the sun without the protection of an approved solar filter.

During an eclipse, not during an eclipse, during an ISS or Mercury or Venus transit, during high or low sunspot activity, during whatever else might be going on.

It will ALWAYS be dangerous, it will NEVER be safe, DON'T DO IT!

Got it Pete?
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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2017, 04:18:58 PM »
What are you talking about, "harmful intent"?  I clearly and repeatedly said it was dangerous to look at the eclipse unprotected.  The fact that I don't agree with you about an eclipse being somehow super extra ultra dangerous, that's not the same as dismissing the very real danger.

it's always dangerous...I certainly hope nobody did what (Jai_mav) suggest.  I may argue and fight with you FE types, but that doesn't mean I actually bear you any ill will.  I definitely wouldn't wish blindness on any of you.

If you practice sungazing regularly, the eclipse won't do nothing to your vision
Kids, Hmmm is either a troll or an idiot.  Please do not take his/her words seriously.

Tell you what, I'll make it plain in case somebody else misunderstood me as Pete has:
Do not EVER, under ANY circumstances, look at the sun without the protection of an approved solar filter.

During an eclipse, not during an eclipse, during an ISS or Mercury or Venus transit, during high or low sunspot activity, during whatever else might be going on.

It will ALWAYS be dangerous, it will NEVER be safe, DON'T DO IT!

Got it Pete?

Similarly, it is absolutely vital that one avoid looking directly at the moon. In fact, excessive exposure to lunar radiation is known to cause irreparable internal organ damage.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2017, 01:51:26 AM »
Quote
why we had to listen to every news channel in the nation warn us
StinkyOne, be aware(=beware) that usually news channels are just brainwashing us, and the human workers at news companies are even more heavily brainwashed and tricked than we are.

StinkyOne, i'm personally sungazing uninterruptedly literally everyday for hour and a half with blinking. And still nothing happened to me, and i don't want anything happening to me.
If i was blind, i wouldn't be here posting, i would have some sort of a long depression.
Why are you so afraid of looking at the sun with your bare eyes regularly?

Quote
There is no freaking conspiracy about the sun.
I will never agree on that. I'm still researching both sun and moon. The conspiracy is that the sun is 80-100% artificial, not natural, technologically made plasma/hologram/complex system object(sun simulator) and it exists in multitudes(nibiru sightings). Instead of a sun, there is a "sun system", that consists of multiple of suns sometimes interchanging one another and working at a variable/constant looping paths above different regions of earth.

Quote
Kids, Hmmm is either a troll or an idiot.  Please do not take his/her words seriously.
Rounder, i know that "kids" is just a locution, but it sounds so ironical, that you use it on the FE forum.
No, i'm sincere about being able capable of sungazing regularly for hours. It's not a problem for me.

Quote
A team of Texas A&M Aggies are planning a sun landing to land on the sun and explore the sun.
Just to be safe they plan to do this at night or during a total eclipse.
geckothegeek, and why are they gonna plan to do this at night, is it because the sun "changes it's mode" and becomes darker-orange, less bright, less hot and visible, when looking at the sky at sunset? My argument/arguments might sound stupid, but consider it/them. ;D ;D

Hmmm-
It's just an old, old, old  "Aggie Joke" that has been around for some time.  ;D
My apologies to all concerned for same.  ::)
Your arguments are lots less stupid than the joke. :)
Please don't take it seriously although I will admit it is a pretty seriously bad joke.  :P
Humor gets a bit weird at times at College Station as I am sure TomInAustin (are you a T-Sipper ?) will agree. ::)

Tsip here.

I just attended some Summer Term classes. Guess that makes me a "Former Student" here.

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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2017, 03:58:06 PM »
Do not EVER, under ANY circumstances, look at the sun without the protection of an approved solar filter.

During an eclipse, not during an eclipse, during an ISS or Mercury or Venus transit, during high or low sunspot activity, during whatever else might be going on.

It will ALWAYS be dangerous, it will NEVER be safe, DON'T DO IT!
Thanks, that will do. Not quite an apology but at least hopefully any potential damage is undone.
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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2017, 05:49:19 PM »
Quote
why we had to listen to every news channel in the nation warn us
StinkyOne, be aware(=beware) that usually news channels are just brainwashing us, and the human workers at news companies are even more heavily brainwashed and tricked than we are.

StinkyOne, i'm personally sungazing uninterruptedly literally everyday for hour and a half with blinking. And still nothing happened to me, and i don't want anything happening to me.
If i was blind, i wouldn't be here posting, i would have some sort of a long depression.
Why are you so afraid of looking at the sun with your bare eyes regularly?

Quote
There is no freaking conspiracy about the sun.
I will never agree on that. I'm still researching both sun and moon. The conspiracy is that the sun is 80-100% artificial, not natural, technologically made plasma/hologram/complex system object(sun simulator) and it exists in multitudes(nibiru sightings). Instead of a sun, there is a "sun system", that consists of multiple of suns sometimes interchanging one another and working at a variable/constant looping paths above different regions of earth.

Quote
Kids, Hmmm is either a troll or an idiot.  Please do not take his/her words seriously.
Rounder, i know that "kids" is just a locution, but it sounds so ironical, that you use it on the FE forum.
No, i'm sincere about being able capable of sungazing regularly for hours. It's not a problem for me.

Quote
A team of Texas A&M Aggies are planning a sun landing to land on the sun and explore the sun.
Just to be safe they plan to do this at night or during a total eclipse.
geckothegeek, and why are they gonna plan to do this at night, is it because the sun "changes it's mode" and becomes darker-orange, less bright, less hot and visible, when looking at the sky at sunset? My argument/arguments might sound stupid, but consider it/them. ;D ;D

Hmmm-
It's just an old, old, old  "Aggie Joke" that has been around for some time.  ;D
My apologies to all concerned for same.  ::)
Your arguments are lots less stupid than the joke. :)
Please don't take it seriously although I will admit it is a pretty seriously bad joke.  :P
Humor gets a bit weird at times at College Station as I am sure TomInAustin (are you a T-Sipper ?) will agree. ::)

Tsip here.

I just attended some Summer Term classes. Guess that makes me a "Former Student" here.

That gives you a lot more rights than what we call "the adopted alumni".  A vast throng of orange wearing fans.
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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2017, 07:24:58 PM »
Similarly, it is absolutely vital that one avoid looking directly at the moon. In fact, excessive exposure to lunar radiation is known to cause irreparable internal organ damage.

Actually, it can be dangerous to stare at the moon for a long time...through a telescope.  Focussed moonlight can be really quite bright.  My telescope came with a "moon filter" that you're supposed to use during prolonged lunar observations.   But unmagnified, it's obviously safe.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2017, 07:27:16 AM »
You could also use #14 welding goggles. I guess NASA faked those, as well. Also, NASA doesn't make the glasses. They just say don't be stupid and stare at the sun, which apparently is something flat Earthers need reminded of.

As for what makes the solar eclipse different, nothing. It is still absolutely the same unless you are in totality, but that only lasts a couple minutes. The Sun is still every bit as bright in the parts that aren't blocked by the moon and will still damage your eyes. It was about 80% covered where I was and while it was a bit darker out, the sun was still overpowering to glance at.

I agree mostly with what you're saying.

NASA doesn't make special glasses, however, if you're going to be staring at the sun for that long of a time period there has to be protective eyewear or else someone is getting sued.

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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2017, 02:40:28 PM »
You could also use #14 welding goggles. I guess NASA faked those, as well. Also, NASA doesn't make the glasses. They just say don't be stupid and stare at the sun, which apparently is something flat Earthers need reminded of.

As for what makes the solar eclipse different, nothing. It is still absolutely the same unless you are in totality, but that only lasts a couple minutes. The Sun is still every bit as bright in the parts that aren't blocked by the moon and will still damage your eyes. It was about 80% covered where I was and while it was a bit darker out, the sun was still overpowering to glance at.

I think the point that Pete is trying to make here is this:

* The pupils of our eyes change size to allow in more or less light as needed - so we see better at night but don't get dazzled in the daytime.
* During an eclipse, it gets dark.
* Hence the pupils open up wider to allow in more light during totality.
* So when small "beads" of light appear around the edges of the moon, our eyes are allowing in more of that light than they would normally do if you happened to glance at the un-eclipsed sun in daylight.
* Hence, the damage to the retina due to those small beads of light happens faster than the retina would be damaged if you looked at the uneclipsed sun.

What others here are saying - that it's dangerous to look at the uneclipsed sun - is also true...it's just a matter of degree.  What Pete points out is that because of the reaction of the pupil, damage due to staring at the first parts of the sun as it emerges from totality will happen faster than staring at the uneclipsed sun...and that's true.

The pupil can change from about 2mm to 8mm in diameter - giving a 16:1 variation in light input.   Hence, if your pupil was FULLY opened during totality - then damage due to the first rays of sunlight would theoretically happen 16 times faster than if it was fully constricted and staring at an uneclipsed sun.

However, the pupillary response is very fast - just a fraction of a second - so as those first beads of light appear, the increase in overall brightness will ramp up and the iris is going to start shutting out light...so I very much doubt that you'd be looking through a fully open iris for more than a very small fraction of a second.

Everything here depends on how the eye adjusts the iris when there is a very small patch of intense light...and that's something that has not been well studied.

So I score this argument as a tie.   You're both right - you're just arguing about different things - and all of the arguments involved depend very subtly on aspects of how the eye work that I'd lay good odds that none of us here understand.

Bottom line:  Don't look at the sun without the right eye protection...EVER.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2017, 06:08:37 PM »
The pupil can change from about 2mm to 8mm in diameter - giving a 16:1 variation in light input.   Hence, if your pupil was FULLY opened during totality - then damage due to the first rays of sunlight would theoretically happen 16 times faster than if it was fully constricted and staring at an uneclipsed sun.
"16 times faster" would be true only if the amount of light energy in front of the pupil from the first rays of sunlight were equal to the light energy from an uneclipsed sun, which is clearly a preposterous assumption.  Anything less than equal energy reduces the "16 times faster" claim.  The damage rate would be equal if the light energy from an uneclipsed sun was exactly 16x the amount of light energy from those first and last rays of sunlight (from the Baily's Beads / Diamond Ring).  I submit that 16x is still too low a multiplier from Baily's Bead energy to full sun energy, based on the fact that solar filters are required to reduce incoming infrared by a factor of 37 (more than double the 16x figure) and incoming UV and visible light by a factor of 300 (more than eighteen times the 16x figure)!.  Even if we assume some safety factor in those numbers, the naked sun must still be more than 16x as harmful to look at as Baily's Beads are, in which case Baily's Bead naked eye viewing cannot even reach the "just as dangerous" threshold, much less climb into "more dangerous" levels.

It is still dangerous, and I repeat my warning that NOBODY SHOULD LOOK AT THE SUN NAKED-EYE EXCEPT DURING TOTALITY, but that's because it's still dangerous, not because it's more dangerous.
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Re: Solar Eclipse
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2017, 07:54:00 PM »
The pupil can change from about 2mm to 8mm in diameter - giving a 16:1 variation in light input.   Hence, if your pupil was FULLY opened during totality - then damage due to the first rays of sunlight would theoretically happen 16 times faster than if it was fully constricted and staring at an uneclipsed sun.
"16 times faster" would be true only if the amount of light energy in front of the pupil from the first rays of sunlight were equal to the light energy from an uneclipsed sun, which is clearly a preposterous assumption.

No - it's actually not.

You're thinking about the TOTAL energy entering the eye - and I'm talking about the energy hitting each tiny photo-sensitive cell on the retina.

The thing is with visual damage from people who stared at the sun during eclipse is that they (mostly) didn't go completely blind.  They have a small circular ring of lost vision where the ring of sunlit beads were towards the end of the eclipse.   They have (mostly) normal vision outside of that area.   (I say "mostly" because some people stared at the sun without protection as the eclipse was just beginning - and those people have been more seriously blinded).

For the more common kind of damage - it's not the TOTAL energy entering the eye that matters - it's the amount of energy hitting each individual cell on the retina as the image of the sun is focussed onto it.

Each cell takes damage or doesn't depending on whether a bright part of the image was focussed on it or not.

So even though the total energy entering the eye during the eclipse is MUCH less (because most of the sun is covered up) - the energy hitting individual cells from a "bead" of sunlight is EXACTLY the same as what that cell would take if the sun was not eclipsed and the pupil was dilated to the same degree.   BUT the iris isn't dilated to the same degree - when the world goes dark, the iris opens wider and the per-retinal-cell energy could be as much as 16 times higher (I doubt it's THAT much - but it's definitely more than you'd otherwise expect).

So here is the nuanced answer:

* In full sunlight - the iris shuts out most of the light - but all of the cells onto which the sun's image falls are going to get damaged.
* In eclipsed sunlight - the iris shuts out much less light - but only the cells onto which a 'bead' of sunlight falls will be damaged.

In the first case, the retinal damage is more widespread - but happens more slowly than in the second case.  Exactly how much more faster the damage happens in the second case is at most 16 times faster - but might easily be less than that if the iris is not fully opened by the darkness of the eclipse.

Of course we all agree on the ultimate conclusion - which is that it's dangerous to look at the sun at any time.  Let's not dilute that message.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?