[Ghost Spaghetti]

So... watched the video and the whole thing seems to be

'it's bad because marketing.'

There are a few legitimate problems like not seeing far enough ahead, but for 99% of the problems they showed they could have solved the problem by simply rolling, one of the most fundamental moves in the game (and he's a hedgehog. Which rolls in a ball to protect itself. You want a th*rking diagram here?) Even then, the game doesn't punish you severely, if you have rings you can usually scramble to grab a couple to keep playing. If the enemies were hidden and getting hit instantly killed you then I'd have more of a problem.

They criticise the open level design as a bad thing? One of the main reasons that the early Sonic games had so much replay factor was the sheer number of ways you could get through the levels. They felt more like places to me than Mario's flat worlds with some obstacles in the way. By going through the game carefully, hopping from platform to platform you had one level, by going fast, remembering to curl into a ball and jumping right you saw another level. By really taking your time to explore, jumping at every wall to see if it had hidden passages you saw another.

They also criticise the story. Let's be honest, if you're judging most 8-16 bit games on their story they'd almost all be awful.

[Ghost of V]

They also criticise the story. Let's be honest, if you're judging most 8-16 bit games on their story they'd almost all be awful.

That's my favorite part. It's fucking Sonic. C'mon. They just need a setpiece to set up for finding chaos emeralds. That's it. The whole video is straw-grasping, but this point is the biggest offender by far.



It was fun entertaining Snupes & Blanko's circlejerk, though.

[Blanko]

Nice dismissal, bro.

[Ghost of V]

Nice dismissal, bro.

Not my fault that Billy Corgan sucks at Sonic.

[Blanko]

Why do you keep using the "git gud" excuse? Sonic games are easy as fuck.

[Ghost of V]

Why do you keep using the "git gud" excuse? Sonic games are easy as fuck.

"Git gud" is not an excuse for anything. Like I said, Billy Corgan sucks at Sonic. He should get better. You're right: Sonic is easy as hell, and it's funny that you say that now after the fact.

When you don't understand basic principles in a game and then criticize the game because of that you're not reviewing the game honestly. Rolling, for example. You hold down. Is that hard?

[Blanko]

I think they understand, and they also understand that it exists purely as compensation for poor level design. Same goes for the ring system where you can just juggle one ring forever. You and Chris seem to be under the impression that being easy makes it fine, but it doesn't.

[Ghost of V]

I think they understand, and they also understand that it exists purely as compensation for poor level design. Same goes for the ring system where you can just juggle one ring forever. You and Chris seem to be under the impression that being easy makes it fine, but it doesn't.

"Being easy" was never part of this argument. It actually seemed like you were criticizing the game for being unfair (impeding Sonic's speed), which translate to difficulty. Yet, when you utilize all the tools given to you you can run through the games fairly quickly without having to stop (with the exception of the odd platform here and there, but most platforms are easily jumpable given you're playing the game correctly and building up momentum). Provided you know how to roll and jump most of their criticisms fly out the window.

[Blanko]

[...]which translate to difficulty.

Uh, no?

Let's make this as simple as possible: being stopped by obstacles that you can't realistically react to is not fun. And in a game that should be all about constant, flowing movement, it's really, really bad that the level design is centered around constantly hindering you from doing that. "Provided you know how to roll and jump" has fuck all to do with it, considering you even went on about how you need to memorize the levels to "get good". But really, what you meant to say was, you need to memorize the levels to start having fun. If you like that sort of thing then all the power to you, but that doesn't make it good design.

Ironically, a lot of the games' issues would be solved if Sonic was simply much slower. That's where the whole "marketing" thing comes in; his speed only serves the purpose of marketing Blast Processing TM.

[Ghost of V]

[...]which translate to difficulty.

Uh, no?

Let's make this as simple as possible: being stopped by obstacles that you can't realistically react to is not fun. And in a game that should be all about constant, flowing movement, it's really, really bad that the level design is centered around constantly hindering you from doing that. "Provided you know how to roll and jump" has fuck all to do with it, considering you even went on about how you need to memorize the levels to "get good". But really, what you meant to say was, you need to memorize the levels to start having fun. If you like that sort of thing then all the power to you, but that doesn't make it good design.

So you don't like platformers, or just have a very limited understanding of the genre. I see now. I understand your crticism, but it also applies to all platformers ever made.

I like being able to move constantly in Mario games too, but obtacles get in my way. Therefore, bad game. Right?  I'm sure removing all obstalces in a game would guarantee GOYT.

[Blanko]

So you don't like platformers, or just have a very limited understanding of the genre. I see now. I understand your crticism, but it also applies to all platformers ever made.

I like being able to move constantly in Mario games too, but obtacles get in my way. Therefore, bad game. Right? 

That would be bad, if Mario expected you to have superhuman reaction time to avoid obstacles. But it doesn't, so it's actually fine!

See, you seem to think that genre conventions exist in a vacuum and aren't subject to being criticised in relation to game mechanics. The obstacles in Mario games work fine because they're placed with consideration for the games' scroll speeds and what the player can be expected to react to. The same isn't true for Sonic. The levels feel like they were designed for a scroll speed similar to Mario, but then they cranked that shit up thanks to blast processing and it ends up being shit instead.

Actually, I'm convinced that you've never played a Mario game in your life. Please stop bringing it up.

[Ghost of V]

So you don't like platformers, or just have a very limited understanding of the genre. I see now. I understand your crticism, but it also applies to all platformers ever made.

I like being able to move constantly in Mario games too, but obtacles get in my way. Therefore, bad game. Right? 

That would be bad, if Mario expected you to have superhuman reaction time to avoid obstacles. But it doesn't, so it's actually fine!

See, you seem to think that genre conventions exist in a vacuum and aren't subject to being criticised in relation to game mechanics. The obstacles in Mario games work fine because they're placed with consideration for the games' scroll speeds and what the player can be expected to react to. The same isn't true for Sonic. The levels feel like they were designed for a scroll speed similar to Mario, but then they cranked that shit up thanks to blast processing and it ends up being shit instead.

Nope.

[Blanko]

So you don't like platformers, or just have a very limited understanding of the genre. I see now. I understand your crticism, but it also applies to all platformers ever made.

I like being able to move constantly in Mario games too, but obtacles get in my way. Therefore, bad game. Right? 

That would be bad, if Mario expected you to have superhuman reaction time to avoid obstacles. But it doesn't, so it's actually fine!

See, you seem to think that genre conventions exist in a vacuum and aren't subject to being criticised in relation to game mechanics. The obstacles in Mario games work fine because they're placed with consideration for the games' scroll speeds and what the player can be expected to react to. The same isn't true for Sonic. The levels feel like they were designed for a scroll speed similar to Mario, but then they cranked that shit up thanks to blast processing and it ends up being shit instead.

Nope.

Really? Nothing? I guess that means I win. :^)

[Ghost of V]

No, it just means I'm done arguing with your circlejerk argument that is based on exaggeration and flat-out lack of understanding of the game mechanics. You know you're wrong and you know why, but you still insist on grasping at straws.


Sonic is playable at high speeds for everyone else except you and Snupes, weird.

Have you stopped to think that you just suck at Sonic?

[Blanko]

Back to "git gud", I see. Did you watch the part of the video where they counted how many frames it takes for an obstacle to reach Sonic's model from the edge of the screen at a high speed? I guess that's grasping at straws, because everyone else is just so good at Sonic that they have literally superhuman reaction speeds. :^)

[Ghost of V]

Back to "git gud", I see. Did you watch the part of the video where they counted how many frames it takes for an obstacle to reach Sonic's model from the edge of the screen at a high speed? I guess that's grasping at straws, because everyone else is just so good at Sonic that they have literally superhuman reaction speeds. :^)

I don't know what to tell you. Have you considered actually collecting rings when you play a Sonic game? You know that Sonic can move at different speeds right? Have you considered rolling? You know that kills most enemies right? If you hold down and tap B over and over you instantly go into a roll that obliterates most obstacles.

Maybe you shouldn't base your arguments off a video your BFF happens to agree with. Perhaps play the game and get back to us?

And you're back to the "superhuman" thing again. I've covered this before, but: rolling. Even if the frames are a bit off and things catch up to Sonic faster than they should, rolling kills things. That's why it's in the game. If that's the only tangible argument that you can pull out of your ass (albeit, not even an original thought: from a video) then I don't think you're making much of a case. You're criticizing a small part of the game that one of the Sonic's tools turns into a non-point.

To add to that, you say that rolling was added to counter these problems, and if so... so what? Isn't attacking added to counter obstacles in any game??? Rolling solves the problem just like any other mechanic in any other game solves a different problem.

[Saddam Hussein]

hay guize

sonic is bad

[Blanko]

Maybe you shouldn't base your arguments off a video your BFF happens to agree with. Perhaps play the game and get back to us?

What an epic Vauxhall moment. Upboated

Why do you keep regurgitating arguments that I've already addressed? Rings are compensation. Rolling is compensation. Both are poorly implemented get out of jail free type mechanics, yet neither will prevent you from crashing into spikes or walls. You even said that things catch up faster than they should; so why are you so hellbent on defending your favourite game? Just admit it's flawed and move on.

Also, none of my arguments came from that video. It's pretty petty for you to imply that.

[Ghost of V]

Also, none of my arguments came from that video. It's pretty petty for you to imply that.

Did you watch the part of the video where they counted how many frames it takes for an obstacle to reach Sonic's model from the edge of the screen at a high speed?

Ok.


I've addressed each one of your points several times, yet you keep typing the same things. When your argument is circular, that's what happens.

[Blanko]

No, you're really not addressing anything. I'm saying that rolling and collecting rings don't solve major issues with the game, and your response is, have you tried rolling and collecting rings? Also have you tried to git gud??