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Other Discussion Boards => Arts & Entertainment => Topic started by: Снупс on July 31, 2014, 01:39:12 AM

Title: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on July 31, 2014, 01:39:12 AM
I didn't really know where to put this, but:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYDsz1NFBJw

Finally, someone agrees. I have a place in my heart for the series, mainly thanks to Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 (which were mainly thanks to Sonic's levels and, more than anything, the chao gardens which omgomg adorable ;w; ), but I have always staunchly thought the first few games were simply not good games. They are terribly designed, IMO, and amazingly flawed, and this video really hits all the nails on their respective heads.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Crudblud on July 31, 2014, 01:51:04 AM
Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 are terribly designed and amazingly flawed.
I agree, Sonic should never have gone 3D.

Also, the most overrated game ever is Final Fantasy VII.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Vindictus on July 31, 2014, 01:56:15 AM
Quite like their pre-rec reviews now. Turns out the guys at RLM are more than just film hipsters.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on July 31, 2014, 02:04:05 AM
Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 are terribly designed and amazingly flawed.
I agree, Sonic should never have gone 3D.

Also, the most overrated game ever is Final Fantasy VII.

Sonic should never have been made, period. There are no good Sonic games (with maybe the exception of Sonic 3).
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on July 31, 2014, 02:58:35 AM
Ouch. I like Sonic 2. I've played hours of that game with my brothers as a child.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on July 31, 2014, 08:01:12 AM
Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 are terribly designed and amazingly flawed.
I agree, Sonic should never have gone 3D.

Also, the most overrated game ever is Final Fantasy VII.

Sonic should never have been made, period. There are no good Sonic games (with maybe the exception of Sonic 3).

The first four Sonic games (up to Sonic and Knuckles) were great games. Occasionally they've released a good one like Sonic Rush since, but generally they've been terrible. Sonic 4 had the potential to be good but it doesn't flow properly, things keep unlocking without giving you any idea how you did it, I have no idea what order the levels are supposed to be in, etc.

For one last hurrah, they should re-release the first 2D games with updated sound and visuals as one complete collection, throw in Sonic 4, CD, and some of the Game Gear games and let the spiny devil have his day.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on July 31, 2014, 06:12:22 PM



The first four Sonic games (up to Sonic and Knuckles) were great games.

Well this is where we disagree
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on August 01, 2014, 08:11:40 AM



The first four Sonic games (up to Sonic and Knuckles) were great games.

Well this is where we disagree

Fast paced, bright, colourful worlds, plenty of alternative routes and hidden paths through the levels if you bothered to explore, limited power-ups, mind-bending special stages. What's not to like?

Ok, they were probably a little too easy and the music in Sonic 1 was ear-wrenching, but otherwise, great games.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 01, 2014, 08:16:50 AM
Did you watch the video I linked? They go a lot more in-depth a lot better than I can, but basically the game's entire design is counter-intuitive, especially to its own "go fast" purpose. Playing Sonic games fast (again, with the possible exception of Sonic & Knuckles) is basically a death-trap if you don't have the levels already memorized or well-known from prior playthroughs (say, from being a kid and liking it because colours and it's a game). They even point out specific points in the game where you literally have about a quarter of a second to react to things coming from off-screen because of the centering of Sonic on a 4:3 screen.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Crudblud on August 02, 2014, 04:43:54 AM
Did you watch the video I linked?
I was going to, but those guys managed to annoy me within 10 seconds of opening their mouths. There's something very smug and stage-y about the whole thing that I don't like.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 02, 2014, 04:51:19 AM
ok
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Vindictus on August 02, 2014, 05:15:46 AM
Don't know where you get the smugness from. They have sat down with the intention of filming their opinions on Sonic, but that's about as set up as it gets. A big part of RLM's appeal is that they're just a couple of dudes that like watching movies (and now playing games!) and making videos about them bashing them or commenting on them in some way.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 02, 2014, 06:20:56 AM
I dunno, man, they were pretty smug.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Vindictus on August 02, 2014, 06:43:09 AM
I dunno, maybe I've been watching them for too long.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 02, 2014, 06:28:15 PM
If you guys don't like smug people, I have no idea what you're doing on FES or participating in literally any conversation here. :P
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on August 02, 2014, 06:29:23 PM
If you guys don't like smug people, I have no idea what you're doing on FES or participating in literally any conversation here. :P

Smug people don't have to like other smug people. Maybe we're all smug and we all hate each other.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 06:37:02 PM
If you guys don't like smug people, I have no idea what you're doing on FES or participating in literally any conversation here. :P

Smug people don't have to like other smug people. Maybe we're all smug and we all hate each other.

Seems like a pretty accurate description of the userbase here.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 02, 2014, 06:47:54 PM
If you guys don't like smug people, I have no idea what you're doing on FES or participating in literally any conversation here. :P

Smug people don't have to like other smug people. Maybe we're all smug and we all hate each other.

Seems like a pretty accurate description of the userbase here.
Yep.

I thought a lot of the fun in Sonic came from playing it multiple times and memorizing the level so that you could react in 8 seconds. It's cool to know that I still have Sonic 2 down pretty well. But I think my favorite Genesis game was Chuck Rock II: Son of Chuck.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 06:58:48 PM
I'd go as far to say that Sonic 2 & 3 (and possibly Sonic & Knuckles) are the best 2D platformers ever made. Learning the levels and eventually being able to speed through them is extremely satisfying. Throw in powerups, Super Sonic, large (but not confusing) levels with many secret areas and you have a recipie for some amazing 2D Blast Processing gaming. The music in both games is some of the best that generation as well. Sonic 1 isn't as good as the others, in my opinion. It's still a fun platformer. 2 & 3 expanded on 1's formula and made it better in every possible way. Sonic CD, while a pretty good game, is still not as good as Sonic 2 & 3. I found the level design in Sonic CD to be tedious, the levels were too large and the "past/future" gimmick just made things too confusing. Sonic CD is just grating to play in general. I've heard that the Sonic games for Gameboy Advance are really good, and I've played the first one... still didn't find it as engrossing as the originals. I don't even want to get into 3D Sonic games, although I do like Sonic Adventure 2 (mostly for Chao raising). Regardless, anyone who says the Sonic games for the Mega Drive are bad games knows nothing about gaming and should die of a vicious venereal disease.

Two of my favorite tracks from the 16bit era come from Sonic 3 & Knuckles:

http://youtu.be/bd8G40yhxNQ

http://youtu.be/5SKcTZNeRnQ

Not to mention, Michael Jackson actually worked on some of the music in Sonic 3 (supposedly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_3#Michael_Jackson.27s_involvement)).


And no, I haven't watched Snupes video. Those guys are indeed annoying. "The whole game is counter intuitive" just means "I suck a video games and video game design".
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 02, 2014, 07:10:50 PM
I love the music. Chemical Plant was always my favorite, but Casino Night 2-Player comes close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCcJnffie48&index=2&list=PLAFB17D22787204E2


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXr-P3wjdg8&list=PLAFB17D22787204E2&index=16
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 07:13:57 PM
Both are great tracks. But they are all great tracks.

I love the rubber band bassline in Emerald Hill Zone

http://youtu.be/6vaBxXCH9b8
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 02, 2014, 07:15:43 PM
Mystic Cave was my favorite level but probably my least favorite music.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Saddam Hussein on August 02, 2014, 07:34:31 PM
Lots of smugness in this here thread.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 07:44:17 PM
I have always staunchly thought the first few games were simply not good games. They are terribly designed, IMO, and amazingly flawed, and this video really hits all the nails on their respective heads.

A video confrims your feelings about a game? Have you stopped to think that you just suck at Sonic?

I have a place in my heart for the series, mainly thanks to Sonic Adventure 1 & 2

Oh nevermind, it all makes sense now.  ::)
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 02, 2014, 08:00:12 PM
Funny, Vauxhall is saying a lot of words but he's yet to say anything about actual game design.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 08:03:25 PM
Funny, Vauxhall is saying a lot of words but he's yet to say anything about actual game design.

Hold on, let me post a video real quick to confirm my opinions.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Vongeo on August 02, 2014, 08:05:17 PM
Why are you talking about Sonic but posting stuff from Dankey kang.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 02, 2014, 08:38:51 PM
Funny, Vauxhall is saying a lot of words but he's yet to say anything about actual game design.

Hold on, let me post a video real quick to confirm my opinions.

Ok, I'm waiting.

Anyway, I watched the video and it's pretty much in line with what I think of the games as well. It feels like the levels were designed for more of a precision platformer game, but were later implemented into Sonic mid-production with some added "go fast" props that don't actually add anything to the gameplay. Later games like Generations with its 2D sections seem to have better figured out what they expect the player to be able to react to and what the general overall flow for the levels should be. In the original games, you're either going really fast or really slow. There's no flow to speak of. Even if you use the "git gud fgt" excuse (which you really shouldn't unless you want to bring attention to the fact that the games are prime examples of so called "artifical difficulty"), that doesn't change the fact that there are A LOT of moving platforms sections that require you to not go fast. It also doesn't help that Sonic controls like dogshit when he's not going fast.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 09:13:55 PM
Which game are you referring to? Are you referring to the entirety of the Genesis Sonic games? Or are you refering to Mario games? Have you even spent much time with early Sonic?

Almost every game in the 16bit era had some sort of artificial difficulty, so that's forgivable.  The bit about Sonic controlling badly is a moot point because I disagree... I never really had a problem getting Sonic to jump on platforms.  That's more of a personal problem. Sonic is faster than your average platformer protagonist, and his movements were made to reflect that. If you have problems controlling Sonic there are two other characters you can play as: Knuckles and Tails (at least in 3 & K, which I am mostly referring to because it is my personal favorite), both of which can fly, making platforming that much easier. Or you could just, you know, get better. To put it bluntly, I was playing Sonic 3 at 5 years old and rarely had trouble finishing levels (with the exception of the Lava zone which I never beat when I was a kid). Sonic games are platformers. They are based around precise controls, and even Sonic games give you a lot of leeway when it comes to jumping and whatnot.

The level design in Sonic 3 is simply ahead of its time. There are so many branching paths in every level, and some parts are only accessible to certain characters. Each stage progresses in a way that makes sense, with set pieces that move you between levels (Knuckles causing you to fall into Hydrocity Zone, for example). This had not been done before in any platformer since Sonic 3, and it makes you feel like you're actually in a rich world instead of playing a game with black screens between each level. Also, each stage is very complex and allows the player to freely explore, yet the game never leaves you lost or confused about where to go next. Mario, Megaman, pretty much any platformer before Sonic 3 did not have anything like this; you simply moved level to level completing each stage in a timely fashion. The bosses in each stage are pretty sweet too.

Of course, most of this is based on my opinion, but many happen to agree that Sonic 3 had great level design. The purpose of the game is one part platforming, one part exploration... sort of like what they tried to do with SA 1 & 2. The fact that people can speedrun through the game without getting hit shows that the level design isn't really flawed, it's just made to be difficult for people playing through the first few times. Plaformers are about memorization after all. Mario is the same way.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 02, 2014, 09:16:55 PM
Level design is fine, just not for going fast.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 09:17:18 PM
Level design is fine, just not for going fast.

Oh. Ok.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM7mQzgjN_s

This guy seems to be doing fine at high speeds?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 02, 2014, 09:22:18 PM
Well, yes. Speedrunners tend to be good at going fast in games. Did you not learn anything from Rushy about using speedruns for arguments?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 09:29:03 PM
Well, yes. Speedrunners tend to be good at going fast in games. Did you not learn anything from Rushy about using speedruns for arguments?

Sonic is made for going fast. That's the game. The game was built around that. People play the game fast every time, and most people don't have a problem with it. Getting good at a platformer requires memorization and muscle memory, this applies to any platformer ever made. The speedrun was given to show you that the game runs well and is completely playable at high speeds. All you need to do is watch the first level to see that this game was built around going fast, and obviously the levels are built around that as well. Spikes and platforms are there to slow you down, yes, that's the point of obstacles..... would you prefer that Sonic just run straight through each level with minor annoyances to jump over? What fun would that be?

Perhaps you're just not a fan of platformers?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 02, 2014, 09:31:33 PM


A video confrims your feelings about a game? Have you stopped to think that you just suck at Sonic?

Oh hey, a Vauxhall argument. This is what I was expecting from your first post. I'm great at Sonic games, have played most of them and beat the first two many, many times (mostly as a child, but several times since then). Those games were huge for me.

However, I also don't let my personal nostalgia and opinion get in the way of the fact that (in my opinion) they're terribly designed and just not very good games. I've even said Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 were not good games, just that I have a soft spot for then because they were games I loved as a child. Of course, that doesn't matter because you're just pulling a Rushy as always.

And, btw, "people can memorize it" is not a good argument in favour of a game's design.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 09:33:55 PM
However, I also don't let my personal nostalgia and opinion get in the way of the fact that (in my opinion) they're terribly designed and just not very good games.

Ok? Are you going to follow up on this or...? Just saying something does not make it so.


And, btw, "people can memorize it" is not a good argument in favour of a game's design.

Getting good at a platformer requires memorization. That's part of the genre. Are you saying that SNES Mario games are poorly designed too?

I'm great at Sonic games

Obviously not.

Some people are just not good at platformers. I forgive you. Sticking with SA 1 & 2 is probably a good idea for you.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 02, 2014, 09:39:03 PM
Well, yes. Speedrunners tend to be good at going fast in games. Did you not learn anything from Rushy about using speedruns for arguments?

Sonic is made for going fast. That's the game. The game was built around that. People play the game fast every time, and most people don't have a problem with it. Getting good at a platformer requires memorization and muscle memory, this applies to any platformer ever made. The speedrun was given to show you that the game runs well and is completely playable at high speeds. All you need to do is watch the first level to see that this game was built around going fast, and obviously the levels are built around that as well. Spikes and platforms are there to slow you down, yes, that's the point of obstacles..... would you prefer that Sonic just run straight through each level with minor annoyances to jump over? What fun would that be?

Perhaps you're just not a fan of platformers?

No, people are not playing the game fast when the game forbids them from going fast. This is either through sections where the player is not allowed to go fast at all, or the player is being stopped due to things he couldn't have seen coming unless he had the level memorized. Thus, we have a situation where in order to play the game how you're supposed to, you must have already played the game previously and memorized it and even then that's only up to the points where the level design deliberately works against how the game is supposed to play. Most platformers are not like that. I don't know why you would think that's the case.

And what you're referring to as "getting good" is just playing through the game. Memorizing a level does not make you "get good" at the game, just at that individual level. Knowledge regarding one level does not carry over to the next one because you still wouldn't know the points in which the level will fuck you over if you try to go fast. So the game pretty much makes sure you have the worst possible experience on your first time playing through.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 09:41:01 PM
Well, yes. Speedrunners tend to be good at going fast in games. Did you not learn anything from Rushy about using speedruns for arguments?

Sonic is made for going fast. That's the game. The game was built around that. People play the game fast every time, and most people don't have a problem with it. Getting good at a platformer requires memorization and muscle memory, this applies to any platformer ever made. The speedrun was given to show you that the game runs well and is completely playable at high speeds. All you need to do is watch the first level to see that this game was built around going fast, and obviously the levels are built around that as well. Spikes and platforms are there to slow you down, yes, that's the point of obstacles..... would you prefer that Sonic just run straight through each level with minor annoyances to jump over? What fun would that be?

Perhaps you're just not a fan of platformers?

No, people are not playing the game fast when the game forbids them from going fast. This is either through sections where the player is not allowed to go fast at all, or the player is being stopped due to things he couldn't have seen coming unless he had the level memorized. Thus, we have a situation where in order to play the game how you're supposed to, you must have already played the game previously and memorized it and even then that's only up to the points where the level design deliberately works against how the game is supposed to play. Most platformers are not like that. I don't know why you would think that's the case.

And what you're referring to as "getting good" is just playing through the game. Memorizing a level does not make you "get good" at the game, just at that individual level. Knowledge regarding one level does not carry over to the next one because you still wouldn't know the points in which the level will fuck you over if you try to go fast. So the game pretty much makes sure you have the worst possible experience on your first time playing through.

The game forbids going fast when it's necessary. Like jumping from one platform to the next, or challenging a series of mooks, or avoiding spikes. Those are called obstacles. Ever heard of them?


Are you trying to say that a game is poorly designed if you die a few times the first few times playing it???

Damn, maybe every game sucks?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Vindictus on August 02, 2014, 09:51:41 PM
Do you realise what you just wrote? Wouldn't good game design revolve around going fast while dealing with obstacles, not having to stop and deal with them?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 02, 2014, 09:53:53 PM
The game forbids going fast when it's necessary. Like jumping from one platform to the next, or challenging a series of mooks, or avoiding spikes. Those are called obstacles. Ever heard of them?

No, I don't think slowly moving platforms or rotating obstacles are necessary in a game where the supposed objective is to go fast.

Quote
Are you trying to say that a game is poorly designed if you die a few times the first few times playing it???

If I die to something I can't see, then yeah. Let's compare to another game you've played: Dark Souls. You know why everyone thinks Bed of Chaos is a shitty, horrible mess of a boss? It's not because it's hard. It's because it broke the design philosophy of always giving the player the opportunity to know what to expect. In Sonic games, that would be the norm, not the exception.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 09:59:48 PM
Do you realise what you just wrote? Wouldn't good game design revolve around going fast while dealing with obstacles, not having to stop and deal with them?

That is entirely what Sonic is based on. You rarely have to come to a complete stop in 2D Sonic games. If you are, you're doing something wrong. You can breeze through most levels by jumping over every damn obstacle in the game, bouncing off enemies the whole way. I know this is true because I have done it. I don't think Blanko even said "come to a complete stop", he just said that the game is designed around impeding your speed... which it kind of is. The game is a platformer at heart; it was made to compete with Mario. If we compare it to Mario, then Mario is just as shitty... if not worse. Who ever wants to come to a complete stop in any game? Yet, almost every game has you coming to some sort of stop at points.

Going fast in Sonic games is a given, sure, but since the game is a platformer it naturally has to conform with some of the archaic conventions of the genre. This was the 16bit era, nothing was perfect... still, nothing is perfect. Sonic 3 is a damn good game when compared to several platformers made even 10+ years after it.


If I die to something I can't see, then yeah.

What? You know that rolling kills most enemies with the exception of armored ones, right? I could understand your argument if it was typical in Sonic games to just run off a ledge and die, but that is not typical at all. The ring system is also VERY generous with keeping you alive so that you can continue to go fast.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 02, 2014, 10:15:37 PM


However, I also don't let my personal nostalgia and opinion get in the way of the fact that (in my opinion) they're terribly designed and just not very good games.

Ok? Are you going to follow up on this or...? Just saying something does not make it so.


And, btw, "people can memorize it" is not a good argument in favour of a game's design.

Getting good at a platformer requires memorization. That's part of the genre. Are you saying that SNES Mario games are poorly designed too?

I'm great at Sonic games

Obviously not.

Some people are just not good at platformers. I forgive you. Sticking with SA 1 & 2 is probably a good idea for you.

Sure, when I'm not on my phone I'll go into it a bit more, but Blanko and Vindictus are doing a pretty good job so far. I'm more addressing the tones of your posts than any actual content.

Mario does not require memorization. Once you understand the rules of a Mario game, you can play the whole game though there will be varying difficulty levels. No memorization is required, however.

And wow sick burn bro, glad to see you eschewing content in favour of very creative, original and hurtful insults :^)
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 10:22:19 PM
Sure, when I'm not on my phone I'll go into it a bit more, but Blanko and Vindictus are doing a pretty good job so far. I'm more addressing the tones of your posts than any actual content.

Mario does not require memorization. Once you understand the rules of a Mario game, you can play the whole game though there will be varying difficulty levels. No memorization is required, however.

And wow sick burn bro, glad to see you eschewing content in favour of very creative, original and hurtful insults :^)

I don't know what you're on about. 16bit Mario is much harder than 16bit Sonic. It's easier to die, it's easier to fall in pits, etc. First time playing a Mario game: you're going to die a lot. Same with Sonic. Memorization helps you not die. Mastering a Mario game requires memorization. If you don't agree with that then... I don't know what to tell you.. Sure, you can beat Mario without memorizing the levels. But, hey, you can beat Sonic without memorizing the levels too. However, if you truly want to master the levels in either series, you have to memorize them or have super human reflexes. Also, beating a Sonic game is a fairly quick thing to do if you know what you're doing. The game was designed to be somewhat difficult to extend the length of the game. This applies to every platformer, like I've been saying.

My insult stems from that fact that you were the one that provided no content. Just claims. I'm just returning the favor. At least I have a valid counter-argument to most of the negatives detailed in this discussion.'

It seems like you all have gripes with the platforming genre as a whole, not specifically Sonic.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 02, 2014, 10:23:07 PM
Do you realise what you just wrote? Wouldn't good game design revolve around going fast while dealing with obstacles, not having to stop and deal with them?

That is entirely what Sonic is based on. You rarely have to come to a complete stop in 2D Sonic games. If you are, you're doing something wrong. You can breeze through most levels by jumping over every damn obstacle in the game, bouncing off enemies the whole way. I know this is true because I have done it. I don't think Blanko even said "come to a complete stop", he just said that the game is designed around impeding your speed... which it kind of is.

...But it does make you come to a complete stop, and does so often. There's a lot of places where you have to wait for a moving platform, or wait for a moving obstacle to get out of the way. These serve absolutely no purpose for going fast, nor do they offer any sort of challenge. And when you bump into an enemy or a spike, you do in fact come to a complete stop.

Quote
The game is a platformer at heart; it was made to compete with Mario. If we compare it to Mario, then Mario is just as shitty... if not worse. Who ever wants to come to a complete stop in any game? Yet, almost every game has you coming to some sort of stop at points.

But see, Mario is not about going fast, and as such is not failing at succeeding in its design goals. Even when you do go fast, you're given much more of an opportunity to see what's ahead of you.

Quote
Going fast in Sonic games is a given, sure, but since the game is a platformer it naturally has to conform with some of the archaic conventions of the genre.

No, it doesn't. That's where the whole issue in its design arises, it takes conventions from games that don't make you go at nearly as high speeds. If you want to make a conventional platformer, then use conventional gameplay mechanics as well.

Quote
If I die to something I can't see, then yeah.

What? You know that rolling kills most enemies with the exception of armored ones, right? I could understand your argument if it was typical in Sonic games to just run off a ledge and die, but that is not typical at all. The ring system is also VERY generous with keeping you alive so that you can continue to go fast.

You do realize that not dying doesn't make the design approach any better, right? In fact, all this time you've argued as if the main issue with the games is that they're too hard when nobody suggested that they're hard at all. I'm talking about the inability for a first-time player to play the game fluidly and "as intended", and for some reason you took that as "dying". It's really starting to seem that the only argument you have is "git gud".
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: beardo on August 02, 2014, 10:26:14 PM
BLAST PROCESSING!
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 02, 2014, 10:26:56 PM
It's true that it is a speedrun game, but I don't see why that means it's awful. I personally don't have a terrible time learning sonic levels, I think it's part of the fun.

Who says it was even intended to be played through without memorization? I thought the challenge was more in beating your previous times.

Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 10:30:34 PM
It's really starting to seem that the only argument you have is "git gud".


Not really. I just have a problem with the "the game is hard for beginners who haven't played it before" argument. Of course it's harder for newcomers. I don't see how this is even a valid point. The more you play, the better you get, the less you die, the less you get hit by enemies, etc. Guess what... this applies to every fucking game ever made.

Yes, you do sometimes come to a complete stop. It's not often, but it happens. I'm sorry that that makes you mad. In my eyes, you are moving and going fast 80% of the time, the other 20% is time spent being cautious and waiting for platforms. Ok. I get it. But it doesn't make the game bad in my opinion. These are limitations of the genre that Sonic was based around. Once again, if you sped through the entire game your first time without having to time a few jumps it would be no fun. The great thing about Sonic and other platformers is that the more you memorize the levels, the btter you get at the game and the faster you can complete the game. That's the point. There are supposed to be obstacles in the way of your success.

I'm sure you could make a much better Sonic game. I look forward to your efforts.

And sorry, but part of Mario is going fast and beating your previous time. So in a way, yes... Mario is about completing levels quickly for a better score, just like Sonic games. Please show me where Sonic was advertised as a game where you are constantly running faster than the speed of light 100% of the time. The promotional material for Sonic just simply implied that Sonic was fast as shit, that's it. "Blast Processing, our game runs fast and smoothly, watch Sonic run around quickly". That's about it. I'm sorry that the game doesn't conform to your personal opinion on how it should play, but that doesn't mean the game is terrible by any means. You simply don't enjoy playing Sonic games. That's fine, but saying that the games themselves are bad because you suck at them or whatever is just stupid.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 02, 2014, 10:40:17 PM
I just have a problem with the "the game is hard for beginners who haven't played it before" argument.

Nobody made that argument.

Quote
Yes, you do sometimes come to a complete stop. It's not often, but it happens. I'm sorry that that makes you mad. In my eyes, you are moving and going fast 80% of the time, the other 20% is time spent being cautious and waiting for platforms. Ok. I get it your points. But it doesn't make the game bad in my opinion. These are limitations of the genre that Sonic was based around. Once again, if you sped through the entire game without having to time a few jumps it would be no fun at all.

So you accept the flaws, but not that they make the game bad? nostalgia stronk

Quote
I'm sure you could make a much better Sonic game. I look forward to your efforts.

Are you really sure you want to go there?

Quote
And sorry, but part of Mario is going fast and beating your previous time. So in a way, yes... Mario is about completing levels quickly for a better score, just like Sonic games.

And even when it's only a part of it, it still does it better than Sonic. Funny, that.

It's true that it is a speedrun game, but I don't see why that means it's awful. I personally don't have a terrible time learning sonic levels, I think it's part of the fun.

Who says it was even intended to be played through without memorization? I thought the challenge was more in beating your previous times.

The problem with this is that Sonic primarily presents you with completion-hindering challenges, not so much speed-hindering challenges. This means that simply knowing when to jump over an obstacle is all you need to optimize your speed, which is not particularly interesting for speedrunning. It's pretty easy to get baited into thinking that raw speed = speedrunning potential, when the opposite is often the case. In Sonic, for long stretches of levels the optimal speed you can gain is by simply holding right. If Sonic was about building momentum rather than preserving it, then it might be better suited as a "speedrun game".
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on August 02, 2014, 10:41:51 PM
It's really starting to seem that the only argument you have is "git gud".


Not really. I just have a problem with the "the game is hard for beginners who haven't played it before" argument. Of course it's harder for newcomers. I don't see how this is even a valid point. The more you play, the better you get, the less you die, the less you get hit by enemies, etc. Guess what... this applies to every fucking game ever made.

Yes, you do sometimes come to a complete stop. It's not often, but it happens. I'm sorry that that makes you mad. In my eyes, you are moving and going fast 80% of the time, the other 20% is time spent being cautious and waiting for platforms. Ok. I get it. But it doesn't make the game bad in my opinion. These are limitations of the genre that Sonic was based around. Once again, if you sped through the entire game your first time without having to time a few jumps it would be no fun. The great thing about Sonic and other platformers is that the more you memorize the levels, the btter you get at the game and the faster you can complete the game. That's the point. There are supposed to be obstacles in the way of your success.

I'm sure you could make a much better Sonic game. I look forward to your efforts.

And sorry, but part of Mario is going fast and beating your previous time. So in a way, yes... Mario is about completing levels quickly for a better score, just like Sonic games. Please show me where Sonic was advertised as a game where you are constantly running faster than the speed of light 100% of the time. The promotional material for Sonic just simply implied that Sonic was fast as shit, that's it. "Blast Processing, our game runs fast and smoothly, watch Sonic run around quickly". That's about it. I'm sorry that the game doesn't conform to your personal opinion on how it should play, but that doesn't mean the game is terrible by any means. You simply don't enjoy playing Sonic games. That's fine, but saying that the games themselves are bad because you suck at them or whatever is just stupid.

I hope I don't look this stupid when I'm defending Morrowings.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 02, 2014, 10:44:25 PM
I love holding right.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 10:45:10 PM
So you accept the flaws, but not that they make the game bad? nostalgia stronk

You're the one claiming they are game breaking flaws. I have said nothing of the sort.


Regarding your other claims... please provide some examples besides "having to stop for platforms".
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 02, 2014, 10:52:30 PM
So you accept the flaws, but not that they make the game bad? nostalgia stronk

You're the one claiming they are game breaking flaws. I have said nothing of the sort.

Flawed design is flawed design. You're having a hard time accepting that it's even that.


Quote
Regarding your other claims... please provide some examples besides "having to stop for platforms".

Before you edited that, I would have said Generations. But now I don't know what you want me to say.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 10:58:32 PM
Flawed design is flawed design. You're having a hard time accepting that it's even that.

Alright. So we've confirmed that you think Sonic is bad because you have to wait on platforms. Cool.

Anyone have a coherent opinion they'd like to share?

Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 02, 2014, 11:03:36 PM
Alright. So we've confirmed that you think Sonic is bad because you have to wait on platforms. Cool.

Yes, and also due to the other stuff I said.

Quote
Anyone have a coherent opinion they'd like to share?

As a sidenote, I'd like to say that you remind me a lot of Rushy.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 11:04:45 PM
Yes, and also due to the other stuff I said.


Stopping. Off-screen enemies. Basic platformer conventions. I have it all covered, right?

As a sidenote, I'd like to say that you remind me a lot of Rushy.

I'll take that as a compliment.  ;D
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 02, 2014, 11:08:42 PM
Stopping. Off-screen enemies. Basic platformer conventions. I have it all covered, right?

That's the gist of it, yeah.

Quote
I'll take that as a compliment.  ;D

ok...
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 11:09:22 PM
Who would have thought that a platformer has platforms in it. Fuck me, right?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 02, 2014, 11:14:38 PM
Okay, that's not part of the things you just listed... but regarding that, it's not like Sonic can't have platforms, it's that they're designed around not going fast. It would be interesting if they were spaced out so you were required to maintain a certain level of momentum in order to make the jumps between them. You know, so it would actually reward you for going fast and still be sort of challenging!

Nope, let's just put loop-de-loops everywhere.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 02, 2014, 11:19:22 PM
Platforms were a big part of your argument.

It would be interesting if they were spaced out so you were required to maintain a certain level of momentum in order to make the jumps between them.

That's how most of them are, actually.

Sonic 3: Act 2 of Stage 1 (http://www.soniccenter.org/maps/s3z12.png)

Most platforms are used to get you to a higher part of the level, so that you can run down it later on in the level or it just leads to a completely different part of the zone. Most platforms you can just skip completely if you choose to go a different route. Many of the platforms lead to a powerup, therefore rewarding you for the wait. Pretty neat level-design, huh? Nothing is entirely pointless here. If you disagree, please circle the parts you think are unnecessary and draw in your improvements. I'd love to see them.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 02, 2014, 11:34:09 PM
It feels like you're only talking about S&K here. Anyway, that's not really what I'm talking about. I mean shit like you see in speedruns where you're running above the entire level and crossing half of a level with a single jump with the massive momentum you have. You know, shit that you're not actually supposed to do. Most of that level looks like precision platforming that doesn't allow for maximum momentum to be sustained.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 03, 2014, 12:24:10 AM
Also, I just realized that sanicfan98 wasn't an ironic alt #mindblown
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on August 04, 2014, 05:28:40 PM
So... watched the video and the whole thing seems to be

'it's bad because marketing.'

There are a few legitimate problems like not seeing far enough ahead, but for 99% of the problems they showed they could have solved the problem by simply rolling, one of the most fundamental moves in the game (and he's a hedgehog. Which rolls in a ball to protect itself. You want a th*rking diagram here?) Even then, the game doesn't punish you severely, if you have rings you can usually scramble to grab a couple to keep playing. If the enemies were hidden and getting hit instantly killed you then I'd have more of a problem.

They criticise the open level design as a bad thing? One of the main reasons that the early Sonic games had so much replay factor was the sheer number of ways you could get through the levels. They felt more like places to me than Mario's flat worlds with some obstacles in the way. By going through the game carefully, hopping from platform to platform you had one level, by going fast, remembering to curl into a ball and jumping right you saw another level. By really taking your time to explore, jumping at every wall to see if it had hidden passages you saw another.

They also criticise the story. Let's be honest, if you're judging most 8-16 bit games on their story they'd almost all be awful.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 05:41:24 PM
They also criticise the story. Let's be honest, if you're judging most 8-16 bit games on their story they'd almost all be awful.

That's my favorite part. It's fucking Sonic. C'mon. They just need a setpiece to set up for finding chaos emeralds. That's it. The whole video is straw-grasping, but this point is the biggest offender by far.



It was fun entertaining Snupes & Blanko's circlejerk, though.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 06:04:29 PM
Nice dismissal, bro.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 06:06:52 PM
Nice dismissal, bro.

Not my fault that Billy Corgan sucks at Sonic.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 06:07:54 PM
Why do you keep using the "git gud" excuse? Sonic games are easy as fuck.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 06:17:31 PM
Why do you keep using the "git gud" excuse? Sonic games are easy as fuck.

"Git gud" is not an excuse for anything. Like I said, Billy Corgan sucks at Sonic. He should get better. You're right: Sonic is easy as hell, and it's funny that you say that now after the fact.

When you don't understand basic principles in a game and then criticize the game because of that you're not reviewing the game honestly. Rolling, for example. You hold down. Is that hard?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 06:20:56 PM
I think they understand, and they also understand that it exists purely as compensation for poor level design. Same goes for the ring system where you can just juggle one ring forever. You and Chris seem to be under the impression that being easy makes it fine, but it doesn't.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 06:31:16 PM
I think they understand, and they also understand that it exists purely as compensation for poor level design. Same goes for the ring system where you can just juggle one ring forever. You and Chris seem to be under the impression that being easy makes it fine, but it doesn't.


"Being easy" was never part of this argument. It actually seemed like you were criticizing the game for being unfair (impeding Sonic's speed), which translate to difficulty. Yet, when you utilize all the tools given to you you can run through the games fairly quickly without having to stop (with the exception of the odd platform here and there, but most platforms are easily jumpable given you're playing the game correctly and building up momentum). Provided you know how to roll and jump most of their criticisms fly out the window.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 06:45:47 PM
[...]which translate to difficulty.

Uh, no?

Let's make this as simple as possible: being stopped by obstacles that you can't realistically react to is not fun. And in a game that should be all about constant, flowing movement, it's really, really bad that the level design is centered around constantly hindering you from doing that. "Provided you know how to roll and jump" has fuck all to do with it, considering you even went on about how you need to memorize the levels to "get good". But really, what you meant to say was, you need to memorize the levels to start having fun. If you like that sort of thing then all the power to you, but that doesn't make it good design.

Ironically, a lot of the games' issues would be solved if Sonic was simply much slower. That's where the whole "marketing" thing comes in; his speed only serves the purpose of marketing Blast Processing TM.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 06:48:32 PM
[...]which translate to difficulty.

Uh, no?

Let's make this as simple as possible: being stopped by obstacles that you can't realistically react to is not fun. And in a game that should be all about constant, flowing movement, it's really, really bad that the level design is centered around constantly hindering you from doing that. "Provided you know how to roll and jump" has fuck all to do with it, considering you even went on about how you need to memorize the levels to "get good". But really, what you meant to say was, you need to memorize the levels to start having fun. If you like that sort of thing then all the power to you, but that doesn't make it good design.


So you don't like platformers, or just have a very limited understanding of the genre. I see now. I understand your crticism, but it also applies to all platformers ever made.

I like being able to move constantly in Mario games too, but obtacles get in my way. Therefore, bad game. Right?  I'm sure removing all obstalces in a game would guarantee GOYT. ::)
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 07:02:15 PM
So you don't like platformers, or just have a very limited understanding of the genre. I see now. I understand your crticism, but it also applies to all platformers ever made.

I like being able to move constantly in Mario games too, but obtacles get in my way. Therefore, bad game. Right?  ::)

That would be bad, if Mario expected you to have superhuman reaction time to avoid obstacles. But it doesn't, so it's actually fine!

See, you seem to think that genre conventions exist in a vacuum and aren't subject to being criticised in relation to game mechanics. The obstacles in Mario games work fine because they're placed with consideration for the games' scroll speeds and what the player can be expected to react to. The same isn't true for Sonic. The levels feel like they were designed for a scroll speed similar to Mario, but then they cranked that shit up thanks to blast processing and it ends up being shit instead.

Actually, I'm convinced that you've never played a Mario game in your life. Please stop bringing it up.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 07:03:09 PM
So you don't like platformers, or just have a very limited understanding of the genre. I see now. I understand your crticism, but it also applies to all platformers ever made.

I like being able to move constantly in Mario games too, but obtacles get in my way. Therefore, bad game. Right?  ::)

That would be bad, if Mario expected you to have superhuman reaction time to avoid obstacles. But it doesn't, so it's actually fine!

See, you seem to think that genre conventions exist in a vacuum and aren't subject to being criticised in relation to game mechanics. The obstacles in Mario games work fine because they're placed with consideration for the games' scroll speeds and what the player can be expected to react to. The same isn't true for Sonic. The levels feel like they were designed for a scroll speed similar to Mario, but then they cranked that shit up thanks to blast processing and it ends up being shit instead.

Nope.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 07:05:54 PM
So you don't like platformers, or just have a very limited understanding of the genre. I see now. I understand your crticism, but it also applies to all platformers ever made.

I like being able to move constantly in Mario games too, but obtacles get in my way. Therefore, bad game. Right?  ::)

That would be bad, if Mario expected you to have superhuman reaction time to avoid obstacles. But it doesn't, so it's actually fine!

See, you seem to think that genre conventions exist in a vacuum and aren't subject to being criticised in relation to game mechanics. The obstacles in Mario games work fine because they're placed with consideration for the games' scroll speeds and what the player can be expected to react to. The same isn't true for Sonic. The levels feel like they were designed for a scroll speed similar to Mario, but then they cranked that shit up thanks to blast processing and it ends up being shit instead.

Nope.

Really? Nothing? I guess that means I win. :^)
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 07:08:32 PM
No, it just means I'm done arguing with your circlejerk argument that is based on exaggeration and flat-out lack of understanding of the game mechanics. You know you're wrong and you know why, but you still insist on grasping at straws.


Sonic is playable at high speeds for everyone else except you and Snupes, weird.


Quote from: Vauxhall
Have you stopped to think that you just suck at Sonic?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 07:13:23 PM
Back to "git gud", I see. Did you watch the part of the video where they counted how many frames it takes for an obstacle to reach Sonic's model from the edge of the screen at a high speed? I guess that's grasping at straws, because everyone else is just so good at Sonic that they have literally superhuman reaction speeds. :^)
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 07:16:40 PM
Back to "git gud", I see. Did you watch the part of the video where they counted how many frames it takes for an obstacle to reach Sonic's model from the edge of the screen at a high speed? I guess that's grasping at straws, because everyone else is just so good at Sonic that they have literally superhuman reaction speeds. :^)

I don't know what to tell you. Have you considered actually collecting rings when you play a Sonic game? You know that Sonic can move at different speeds right? Have you considered rolling? You know that kills most enemies right? If you hold down and tap B over and over you instantly go into a roll that obliterates most obstacles.

Maybe you shouldn't base your arguments off a video your BFF happens to agree with. Perhaps play the game and get back to us?

And you're back to the "superhuman" thing again. I've covered this before, but: rolling. Even if the frames are a bit off and things catch up to Sonic faster than they should, rolling kills things. That's why it's in the game. If that's the only tangible argument that you can pull out of your ass (albeit, not even an original thought: from a video) then I don't think you're making much of a case. You're criticizing a small part of the game that one of the Sonic's tools turns into a non-point.

To add to that, you say that rolling was added to counter these problems, and if so... so what? Isn't attacking added to counter obstacles in any game??? Rolling solves the problem just like any other mechanic in any other game solves a different problem.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Saddam Hussein on August 04, 2014, 07:21:02 PM
hay guize

sonic is bad
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 07:25:55 PM
Maybe you shouldn't base your arguments off a video your BFF happens to agree with. Perhaps play the game and get back to us?

What an epic Vauxhall moment. Upboated

Why do you keep regurgitating arguments that I've already addressed? Rings are compensation. Rolling is compensation. Both are poorly implemented get out of jail free type mechanics, yet neither will prevent you from crashing into spikes or walls. You even said that things catch up faster than they should; so why are you so hellbent on defending your favourite game? Just admit it's flawed and move on.

Also, none of my arguments came from that video. It's pretty petty for you to imply that.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 07:27:23 PM
Also, none of my arguments came from that video. It's pretty petty for you to imply that.


Did you watch the part of the video where they counted how many frames it takes for an obstacle to reach Sonic's model from the edge of the screen at a high speed?


Ok.


I've addressed each one of your points several times, yet you keep typing the same things. When your argument is circular, that's what happens.

Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 07:34:40 PM
No, you're really not addressing anything. I'm saying that rolling and collecting rings don't solve major issues with the game, and your response is, have you tried rolling and collecting rings? Also have you tried to git gud??
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 07:35:42 PM
No, you're really not addressing anything. I'm saying that rolling and collecting rings don't solve major issues with the game, and your response is, have you tried rolling and collecting rings? Also have you tried to git gud??

I think they understand, and they also understand that it exists purely as compensation for poor level design. Same goes for the ring system where you can just juggle one ring forever.

You seem to imply that they solve most of the issues, but were added just to solve those issues.

Please get back to us when you understand your own arguments.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 07:42:24 PM
No, that's not what compensation means. It means that the mechanics only exist to disguise bad level design. That is not a good thing. You can only solve bad level design by not having bad level design.

Besides, they are terribly implemented in their own rights. Rolling pretty much renders enemy design completely irrelevant when it works, and doesn't provide a solution for anything when it doesn't. When it works, it's mechanically equivalent to not having any enemies in the game at all. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing. Rings, on the other hand, make you immortal. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 07:44:02 PM
No, that's not what compensation means. It means that the mechanics only exist to disguise bad level design. That is not a good thing. You can only solve bad level design by not having bad level design.

Besides, they are terribly implemented in their own rights. Rolling pretty much renders enemy design completely irrelevant when it works, and doesn't provide a solution for anything when it doesn't. When it works, it's mechanically equivalent to not having any enemies in the game at all. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing. Rings, on the other hand, make you immortal. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing.

Cool opinions, Blanko. Like before, I'm sure you could design a much better Sonic game. I'm eager to see your work.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on August 04, 2014, 07:45:44 PM
I wonder who will change their mind and respectfully admit that the other was right all along first.

Also, "let's see you make a better game" is always an effective and logical argument.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 07:47:24 PM
No, that's not what compensation means. It means that the mechanics only exist to disguise bad level design. That is not a good thing. You can only solve bad level design by not having bad level design.

Besides, they are terribly implemented in their own rights. Rolling pretty much renders enemy design completely irrelevant when it works, and doesn't provide a solution for anything when it doesn't. When it works, it's mechanically equivalent to not having any enemies in the game at all. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing. Rings, on the other hand, make you immortal. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing.

Cool opinions, Blanko. Like before, I'm sure you could design a much better Sonic game. I'm eager to see your work.

I've made some new points. Surely you should be addressing them, as you are convinced that the games are the greatest thing ever, no?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 07:57:04 PM
Besides, they are terribly implemented in their own rights. Rolling pretty much renders enemy design completely irrelevant when it works, and doesn't provide a solution for anything when it doesn't. When it works, it's mechanically equivalent to not having any enemies in the game at all. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing. Rings, on the other hand, make you immortal. Surely it's easy to understand why that is a fucking bad thing.

Killing enemies by rolling makes enemy design completely irrelevant? This isn't a fucking RPG, Blanko. Sonic can't use fire magic to melt an enemy's ice-shield and then hit him on the glowing crystal on its stomach. It's a platformer. Once again, I'm almost convinced you have no idea what a platformer is. A lot of the enemies are there to be an obstalce and slow you down, rolling kills them. Ok. I don't see how that's a problem other than the fact that you don't like it, and that's fine... but it doesn't make the game badly designed.  At this point you're nitpicking very basic conventions that exist withn all platformers.

Jumping on Goomba heads in Mario kills them. Almost all enemies die from head jumps. Maybe there should be more strategy to killing enemies in ancient platformers? But there isn't. You're nitpicking.

Platformers are not even close to being my favorite genre, and I dislike most of them with the exception of a few Mario games, Megaman X, and Sonic 2 & 3 on the Genesis. Even then, each game has it's own flaws... but most of them stem from the fact that they are platformers.

Sonic 3 is not a perfect game, and I have never claimed it was. But going as far as to call it "terrible" or "poorly designed" in the grand-sense is ignorant and/or based on personal bias. Sonic is a fun game. If you keep dying because of off-screen enemies then you are not playing the game correctly, period.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Saddam Hussein on August 04, 2014, 07:58:28 PM
Jumping on Goomba heads in Mario kills them. Almost all enemies die from head jumps. Maybe there should be more strategy to killing enemies in ancient platformers? But there isn't. You're nitpicking.

Hey, hey, let's see you make a better game before you start criticizing Mario, okay?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 08:12:29 PM
Killing enemies by rolling makes enemy design completely irrelevant? This isn't a fucking RPG, Blanko. Sonic can't use fire magic to melt an enemy's ice-shield and then hit him on the glowing crystal on its stomach. It's a platformer. Once again, I'm almost convinced you have no idea what a platformer is. A lot of the enemies are there to be an obstalce and slow you down, rolling kills them. Ok. I don't see how that's a problem other than the fact that you don't like it, and that's fine... but it doesn't make the game badly designed.  At this point you're nitpicking very basic conventions that exist withn all platformers.

Jumping on Goomba heads in Mario kills them. Almost all enemies die from head jumps. Maybe there should be more strategy to killing enemies in ancient platformers? But there isn't. You're nitpicking.

You know how stars in Mario allow you to kill enemies by dashing through them? That's the equivalent of rolling in Sonic games. You only get that powerup very sparingly in Mario because of how blatantly overpowered it is. This is something you can do in Sonic at will.

Besides, Sonic has head jumps. Why does it need rolling as well?

Quote
Platformers are not even close to being my favorite genre, and I dislike most of them with the exception of a few Mario games, Megaman X, and Sonic 2 & 3 on the Genesis. Even then, each game has it's own flaws... but most of them stem from the fact that they are platformers.

Oh, so it turns out that you don't like platformers. How about that shit.

Quote
Sonic 3 is not a perfect game, and I have never claimed it was. But going as far as to call it "terrible" or "poorly designed" in the grand-sense is ignorant and/or based on personal bias. Sonic is a fun game. If you keep dying because of off-screen enemies then you are not playing the game correctly, period.

You know what's also ignorant and/or based on personal bias? Calling a game with massive fundamental flaws "the greatest 2D platformer ever made". It's fine if you personally like it, but then it's just "your favourite 2D platformer". Say things you actually mean instead of deliberately misleading people.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 08:22:43 PM
Originally your argument was "you have to stop too often, enemies come out of nowhere and hurt you. This is not good because Sonic is too fast, yet the game is designed to slow him down to compensate".

Now that you've discovered rolling exists, which solves the "Sonic is too fast" dilemma (because this makes it easier to maintain Sonic's momentum), enemies are pointless and the game is too easy. You're flip flopping.


Make up your damn mind, Balkno.

Secondly, Sonic has a boss at the end of each stage. Mario doesn't. Therefore, enemies being too easy in Sonic isn't really a big deal since the main challenge in Sonic and speeding through the level (which is entirely possible, even without getting hit). Regardless, not all enemies are killed simply by rolling. There are others that are armored, on fire, etc. Meaning you have to switch up your strategy. Sonic also has a similar "star" power up, which has just as much utility as its counterpart.


I also said "Sonic 3 is one of the best platformers ever made". The best platformer is easily Mega Man X.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 08:41:52 PM
First of all, enemies are not the only obstacles in the games. I've mainly been talking about actual stage hazards when it comes to stopping your momentum. Second of all, you should never design your enemies so that the only way to make them work within your game is to make them pointless. This is all just going back to the fact that they try to make Sonic going too fast work by giving him a bunch of tools that in turn undermine a lot of other aspects in the games, instead of - you know - not making Sonic too fast for the game you are trying to make. Again, that's where the argument on marketing comes in. The developers were hellbent on making Sonic really fucking fast to showcase the BLAAAAAAST PROCESSING that they would rather cover up the downfalls of the system with unnecessary mechanics instead of not having the system in the first place.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 04, 2014, 08:50:39 PM
No, it just means I'm done arguing with your circlejerk argument that is based on exaggeration and flat-out lack of understanding of the game mechanics. You know you're wrong and you know why, but you still insist on grasping at straws.

Fuck, the irony. I've been ad-hominemed thrice in posts not even addressed towards me in a thread I haven't been posting in. I was going to actually address your fucking points, but seeing as nothing from your keyboard without a snarky, acidic tone (including LOL o so funy grade school insults) and you seemingly deliberately dodge points in favour of saying "your suck at game", I don't think arguing here is worth it. It's like arguing with Thork on the old site all over again; I thought I escaped that fate
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 08:59:15 PM
No, it just means I'm done arguing with your circlejerk argument that is based on exaggeration and flat-out lack of understanding of the game mechanics. You know you're wrong and you know why, but you still insist on grasping at straws.

Fuck, the irony. I've been ad-hominemed thrice in posts not even addressed towards me in a thread I haven't been posting in. I was going to actually address your fucking points, but seeing as nothing from your keyboard without a snarky, acidic tone (including LOL o so funy grade school insults) and you seemingly deliberately dodge points in favour of saying "your suck at game", I don't think arguing here is worth it. It's like arguing with Thork on the old site all over again; I thought I escaped that fate

Welcome to the internet. I thought I was being tame.

Besides, I've address all of Blanko's points. Acting like I haven't doesn't make them less valid.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 09:00:23 PM
It's not so clever when Rushy is doing it, is it?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 09:02:36 PM
Lack of understanding & circlejerk = ad-hominem attacks. I could understand if that's all I said, but I guess it's just too difficult to read other posts, huh?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 09:09:05 PM
That was the most ironic post I've ever read.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 09:10:28 PM
That was the most ironic post I've ever read.

Aweeeee.  ::)
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 04, 2014, 09:15:44 PM
No, it just means I'm done arguing with your circlejerk argument that is based on exaggeration and flat-out lack of understanding of the game mechanics. [...]


Sonic is playable at high speeds for everyone else except you and Snupes, weird.


Quote from: Vauxhall
Have you stopped to think that you just suck at Sonic?
Back to "git gud", I see. Did you watch the part of the video where they counted how many frames it takes for an obstacle to reach Sonic's model from the edge of the screen at a high speed? I guess that's grasping at straws, because everyone else is just so good at Sonic that they have literally superhuman reaction speeds. :^)
Maybe you shouldn't base your arguments off a video your BFF happens to agree with. Perhaps play the game and get back to us?
They also criticise the story. Let's be honest, if you're judging most 8-16 bit games on their story they'd almost all be awful.
It was fun entertaining Snupes & Blanko's circlejerk, though.

Note, of course, that I hadn't actually participated with Blanko at all, nor addressed any of his points other than saying "I'll post when I can, but Blanko and Rushy seem to have the same points as me". Nor had I really debated with you much other than addressing the tone of your posts. But no, it's "Snupes & Blanko's circlejerk" because how else would you add such a hilariously witty, relevant and needle-sharp riposte to your posts. :]]]]]]
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 09:17:20 PM
Note, of course, that I hadn't actually participated with Blanko at all, nor addressed any of his points other than saying "I'll post when I can, but Blanko and Rushy seem to have the same points as me". Nor had I really debated with you much other than addressing the tone of your posts. But no, it's "Snupes & Blanko's circlejerk" because how else would you add such a hilariously witty, relevant and needle-sharp riposte to your posts. :]]]]]]


You two are so cute. I can't resist pointing out the obvious.

But hey, you're off-topic. How about addressing the points I made?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 09:22:19 PM
I think I'll have to take back the comparison to Rushy I made. See, Rushy is at least self-aware what kind of image he's conveying. I don't think you are.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 09:23:07 PM
I think I'll have to take back the comparison to Rushy I made. See, Rushy is at least self-aware what kind of image he's conveying. I don't think you are.

Ad hominem off-topic reported.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 04, 2014, 09:23:48 PM
You two are so cute. I can't resist pointing out the obvious.

How does Blanko and I being cute together (which we are, no shit detective) pertain to the irrelevant and nonsensical "circlejerk" posts when I didn't participate with him in this thread whatsoever?

I don't think arguing here is worth it. It's like arguing with Thork on the old site all over again; I thought I escaped that fate

This entire debate is pretty off-topic (not for long, but) and I'm addressing your arguments (mainly the structure of them) so I would argue that I'm quite on topic, but I digress and, as the quote above indicates, I'm done.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 09:25:36 PM
You two are so cute. I can't resist pointing out the obvious.

How does Blanko and I being cute together (which we are, no shit detective) pertain to the irrelevant and nonsensical "circlejerk" posts when I didn't participate with him in this thread whatsoever?

I don't think arguing here is worth it. It's like arguing with Thork on the old site all over again; I thought I escaped that fate

This entire debate is pretty off-topic (not for long, but) and I'm addressing your arguments (mainly the structure of them) so I would argue that I'm quite on topic, but I digress and, as the quote above indicates, I'm done.

You're not. You're bitching about ad-hominems when there is more to my argument than that. Good show, though.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 09:33:17 PM
Feel better now?  ::)
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 04, 2014, 09:35:30 PM
You're not. You're bitching about ad-hominems when there is more to my argument than that.

What does my bitching have to do with my posts being off-topic

Ad-hominems are a part of your arguments and I'm addressing them. I've even specifically specified that those are the parts I am addressing


Feel better now?  ::)

That was the "Now Playing" thread, not the "bitch about Sonic" thread. I realize you're upset and are trying to milk any opportunity for a "lol u mad!!!" moment, but be happy I even dignified this trainwreck of an argument with a thread split. I'm not sure why you think a routine thread split would be an angry reaction, I don't care that much about internet posts by a stranger.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 09:38:16 PM
That was the "Now Playing" thread, not the "bitch about Sonic" thread. I realize you're upset and are trying to milk any opportunity for a "lol u mad!!!" moment, but be happy I even dignified this trainwreck of an argument with a thread split. I'm not sure why you think a routine thread split would be an angry reaction, I don't care that much about internet posts by a stranger.

Discussing games in the game thread?  Outrageous!

Btw, the only ones bitching about Sonic are you and Blanko.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 04, 2014, 09:41:14 PM
I know that this is difficult, but that is the "Now Playing" thread, for games you are (bear with me here) now playing. It was my mistake to post it there in the first place. I didn't think it would spawn six pages of horribleness and didn't think it was worth wasting a thread on. Clearly I was right on the latter part, but not the former.

Btw, the only ones bitching about Sonic are you and Blanko.

Did I say otherwise, or are you still just trying to be all cool, edgy and provocative?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 09:42:31 PM
I know that this is difficult, but that is the "Now Playing" thread, for games you are (bear with me here) now playing. It was my mistake to post it there in the first place. I didn't think it would spawn six pages of horribleness and didn't think it was worth wasting a thread on. Clearly I was right on the latter part, but not the former.

Btw, the only ones bitching about Sonic are you and Blanko.

Did I say otherwise, or are you still just trying to be all cool and provocative?

I guess discussing movies and whatnot in the "Now Playing" thread about those things is prohibited as well, right?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 04, 2014, 09:43:08 PM
I know that this is difficult, but that is the "Now Playing" thread, for games you are (bear with me here) now playing. It was my mistake to post it there in the first place. I didn't think it would spawn six pages of horribleness and didn't think it was worth wasting a thread on. Clearly I was right on the latter part, but not the former.

Btw, the only ones bitching about Sonic are you and Blanko.

Did I say otherwise, or are you still just trying to be all cool and provocative?

I guess discussing movies and whatnot in the "Now Playing" thread about those things is prohibited as well, right?

Where did I say it was prohibited?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 09:44:53 PM
I know that this is difficult, but that is the "Now Playing" thread, for games you are (bear with me here) now playing. It was my mistake to post it there in the first place. I didn't think it would spawn six pages of horribleness and didn't think it was worth wasting a thread on. Clearly I was right on the latter part, but not the former.

Btw, the only ones bitching about Sonic are you and Blanko.

Did I say otherwise, or are you still just trying to be all cool and provocative?

I guess discussing movies and whatnot in the "Now Playing" thread about those things is prohibited as well, right?

Where did I say it was prohibited?

You certainly seem to think that discussing games in the "Now Playing" thread is not allowed, so shouldn't that apply to the "Now Playing" thread about movies/shows? Or is there a different reason you split the thread?  ???
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Vindictus on August 04, 2014, 09:48:04 PM
This argument was consuming the thread and drowning out any other discussion.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 04, 2014, 09:50:34 PM
You're not. You're bitching about ad-hominems when there is more to my argument than that. Good show, though.

Really? It's occurred to me that you've agreed with every single flaw I've pointed out in this thread, and the only thing you've done is attempt to downplay them as "nitpickery", "circlejerking", "bitching" or that "every platformer is that way". And probably something else I'm forgetting. All this time you've done or said nothing to demonstrate that there's anything good underneath all those flaws. You're just conceding to everything I say but only to the extent of what your fanboy pride allows.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 04, 2014, 09:52:01 PM
You certainly seem to think that discussing games in the "Now Playing" thread is not allowed [...]

Incorrect


Or is there a different reason you split the thread?  ???

Yes, I split it because it's six pages about Sonic and I figured it would better serve as its own thread, rather than muck up the other one with 90% bitching about Sonic and another 10% that's both general bitching and unrelated to video games. Rule-breaking is not the only reason for thread splits, and we have many times split threads because they would better serve as their own thread. It was cluttering the thread up and serving as a detterent against other discussion and as an annoyance to those who had to wade through six pages of moaning because they wanted to see what other people are playing.

Why do you care so much? I can't tell if you're just still all grumpy from the debate and trying to find other things to justify complaining about or if you're being such a clever and pulling a Rushy still.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 04, 2014, 09:59:41 PM
You're not. You're bitching about ad-hominems when there is more to my argument than that. Good show, though.

Really? It's occurred to me that you've agreed with every single flaw I've pointed out in this thread, and the only thing you've done is attempt to downplay them as "nitpickery", "circlejerking", "bitching" or that "every platformer is that way". And probably something else I'm forgetting. All this time you've done or said nothing to demonstrate that there's anything good underneath all those flaws. You're just conceding to everything I say but only to the extent of what your fanboy pride allows.


I don't agree that they are flaws. I agree that your criticisms exist within the game, but I have given reasons as to why it's not important. The mechanics given to you make almost all the flaws you've vehemently argued irrelevant. If you choose not to use the tools given to you then you're going to have problems with the game. You dislike the options given to you, fine. That's ok, but that's your opinion and the game works as advertised (Sonic going fast) because of those tools, whether you like it or not.

The game gives you ample tools to succeed, you just don't like the tools given. This is where you start nitpicking.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 04:36:49 AM
but I have given reasons as to why it's not important.
This is where you start nitpicking.

Downplaying.

That's all you do. It's not as bad as you think it is! You just don't understand platformers! You haven't said a single thing about how these mechanics are actually good, and that's because you don't actually have any issue admitting that they are flawed. The issue comes in when you refuse to admit that they're "important" flaws. Hell, I don't even need to tell you this, since that's literally what you just said yourself. I'm nitpicking? Why aren't you trying to tell me why I'm wrong about these flaws existing in the first place if you're so convinced that the games are good? Why is it that all you're doing is dodging everything I say with shitty ad hominems?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 06:57:44 AM
Your problems with Sonic change depending on what my response is, so why don't you just make a coherent list of all the things you're bitching about so that I can break it down for you easier. Once you figure out what the hell you're talking about I think that will make it a bit easier for me. At least this way I can keep track of all your nitpicking.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 07:48:48 AM
Why? You've stated that you've addressed all of my points and I've drawn the appropriate conclusions. Is there something you'd like to change?

Also,

>bitching
>nitpicking

It's hilarious how eager you are to confirm what I'm saying.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on August 05, 2014, 08:19:11 AM
Quote
You know how stars in Mario allow you to kill enemies by dashing through them? That's the equivalent of rolling in Sonic games. You only get that powerup very sparingly in Mario because of how blatantly overpowered it is. This is something you can do in Sonic at will.

Except that when rolling you have the advantage of smashing through enemies at the cost of control, you're pretty much at the mercy of the terrain forcing you to weigh up whether it's likely that there'll be enemies or traps to deal with. Sonic 1 is notable that in most cases you can tell pretty quickly if you're supposed to be rolling or running by the loops, jumps and flicks in the levels until you get to the Star Light Zone which flips it on its head.

Quote
You and Chris seem to be under the impression that being easy makes it fine, but it doesn't.

Clearly never got to Star Light or the Scrap Brain zones in the first sonic. Even ring-juggling won't save you there

Quote
Did you watch the part of the video where they counted how many frames it takes for an obstacle to reach Sonic's model from the edge of the screen at a high speed?

Well, if you will run at high speed whilst just pressing right, what do you expect? You seem to assume that you should always be running as quickly as possible. Speed is just a tool like jumping, rolling or turbo dashing; even in the 'roller-coaster' type areas ("you just let the game play itself") if you look, they miss so many alternative routes, power-ups, etc that it pays you to slow down and explore.

Sonic is one of the few platformers I can remember which gave you so many ways to play through the levels.
Quick 'n' dirty (run like a lunatic and rely on rings to keep you alive)
Careful Platformer (run when you need to, otherwise, walk and jump your way through)
Observant explorer (Find all the hidden nooks and crannies - especially true from Sonic 3 and Knuckles where Tails and Knuckles had totally new routes through based on their abilities)

I admit that the game mechanics aren't as suited to the first style as the marketing would lead you to believe, something they've worked on in later 2D platformers with dynamic cameras and fewer ambush enemies.

Quote
or walls

Whut?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 08:54:22 AM
Except that when rolling you have the advantage of smashing through enemies at the cost of control, you're pretty much at the mercy of the terrain forcing you to weigh up whether it's likely that there'll be enemies or traps to deal with. Sonic 1 is notable that in most cases you can tell pretty quickly if you're supposed to be rolling or running by the loops, jumps and flicks in the levels until you get to the Star Light Zone which flips it on its head.


Or you could just memorise the levels, right? In any case, I don't see much reason for not rolling when you're moving fast, as you're already at a loss of control.

Quote
Clearly never got to Star Light or the Scrap Brain zones in the first sonic. Even ring-juggling won't save you there


I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a good thing. That just makes it so it's not fulfilling its purpose of keeping you alive.

Quote
Well, if you will run at high speed whilst just pressing right, what do you expect? You seem to assume that you should always be running as quickly as possible. Speed is just a tool like jumping, rolling or turbo dashing; even in the 'roller-coaster' type areas ("you just let the game play itself") if you look, they miss so many alternative routes, power-ups, etc that it pays you to slow down and explore.

Sonic is one of the few platformers I can remember which gave you so many ways to play through the levels.
Quick 'n' dirty (run like a lunatic and rely on rings to keep you alive)
Careful Platformer (run when you need to, otherwise, walk and jump your way through)
Observant explorer (Find all the hidden nooks and crannies - especially true from Sonic 3 and Knuckles where Tails and Knuckles had totally new routes through based on their abilities)


Considering how much the games railroad you towards slopes and boosters, and how your only form of speed control is not holding right, I'd say that the first style is much more prominent and expected than the other two. Indeed,  I would say that the only time you're expected to not go fast is when you're not playing as Sonic.

Quote
I admit that the game mechanics aren't as suited to the first style as the marketing would lead you to believe, something they've worked on in later 2D platformers with dynamic cameras and fewer ambush enemies.


It's nice that you can say that without resorting to one of Vauxy's favourite words. You're much better at this.

Quote
Whut?

What?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on August 05, 2014, 09:22:41 AM
Quote
Or you could just memorise the levels, right? In any case, I don't see much reason for not rolling when you're moving fast, as you're already at a loss of control.

You're not, though. There are times when you'll shoot past where you need to go if you roll, whereas if you're quick with going to the left trigger, you can either do a quick backtrack or stop before you pass it.

Quote


I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a good thing. That just makes it so it's not fulfilling its purpose of keeping you alive.


The purpose isn't to grant you invulnerability but to keep you alive if you make a mistake or hit an ambush enemy.

Quote


Considering how much the games railroad you towards slopes and boosters, and how your only form of speed control is not holding right, I'd say that the first style is much more prominent and expected than the other two. Indeed,  I would say that the only time you're expected to not go fast is when you're not playing as Sonic.


I think it's actually less than you might think. the only levels I remember having those 'roller coaster' secions where the game does pretty much play itself if you're going for the first strategy are the Ice Cap zone, bits of the Chemical Plant Zone and the Marble Garden Zone, even then they don't take up the majority of the levels. In the Ice cap there are careful jumps across falling icicles, in Chemical plant there are the tricky underwater bits and the block hopping bits and in MGZ there are the flying parts.

Quote


It's nice that you can say that without resorting to one of Vauxy's favourite words. You're much better at this.


They're not perfect games, but neither are they bad or 'the most overrated games in history.' If the original sonics were to be remade, I think there are a lot of features from games like Advance and Rush which would be incorporated and solve some of the problems (Dynamic cameras which move the sprite to the back of the screen, widescreen displays, the insta-boost to get your speed back up after being hit, etc)

Quote
What?

Well, first, I can only think of two, maybe three instances where your flow is completely interrupted by a wall in the way (even then, if you remember to jump or roll you can usually get past it) Second, why is running into a wall necessarily a Really Bad Thing? it slows the action no more than going down the pipes slow Mario.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 02:36:12 PM
You're not, though. There are times when you'll shoot past where you need to go if you roll, whereas if you're quick with going to the left trigger, you can either do a quick backtrack or stop before you pass it.

How many times would that be? Usually you could just stay on your current route, or alternate routes are reachable from a rolling state. Either way, rolling seems to be a much safer bet when you don't know what's ahead of you and you're moving too fast to react to things; Vauxy seems to agree, as he believes that rolling removes literally all of my issues with the games. Except for the fact that there are stage hazards, but you know.

Quote
The purpose isn't to grant you invulnerability but to keep you alive if you make a mistake or hit an ambush enemy.

Fair enough.

Quote
I think it's actually less than you might think. the only levels I remember having those 'roller coaster' secions where the game does pretty much play itself if you're going for the first strategy are the Ice Cap zone, bits of the Chemical Plant Zone and the Marble Garden Zone, even then they don't take up the majority of the levels. In the Ice cap there are careful jumps across falling icicles, in Chemical plant there are the tricky underwater bits and the block hopping bits and in MGZ there are the flying parts.

Yes, I did already mention that there are a lot of sections where you can't go fast in the first place because Vauxy was arguing against it. That's where we run into another issue; Sonic is designed to go fast. He has heavy natural acceleration in his movement and his turning speed is sluggish. As such he's designed to perform well when going fast over long stretches, but poorly in precision platforming.

Quote
They're not perfect games, but neither are they bad or 'the most overrated games in history.' If the original sonics were to be remade, I think there are a lot of features from games like Advance and Rush which would be incorporated and solve some of the problems (Dynamic cameras which move the sprite to the back of the screen, widescreen displays, the insta-boost to get your speed back up after being hit, etc)

I'm not arguing that they're "the most overrated games in history" (that one goes to Bioshock Infinite). I'm not even arguing that these games are necessarily not fun; I'm just saying that there's a lot of underlying core issues that can be ignored if your parents hated you and didn't get you a SNES instead, but they're still there and as such I wouldn't place Sonic games anywhere near to contention for some of "the best platformers of all time". Again, it's fine if you like it. But then it's just in contention for your personal favorite game.

And yes, I think those simple fixes would go a long way in making the games better.

Quote
Well, first, I can only think of two, maybe three instances where your flow is completely interrupted by a wall in the way (even then, if you remember to jump or roll you can usually get past it) Second, why is running into a wall necessarily a Really Bad Thing? it slows the action no more than going down the pipes slow Mario.

Because in Sonic you're stopping because you don't have enough time to react to obstacles. In Mario going down pipes is exciting, and you want to go down pipes. So having a little downtime there to build up suspense is understandable. You see that sort of thing a lot, for instance with chests in Zelda.

Imagine playing a driving game where there are random walls that you can't see until they're ten feet away from you. That's what playing Sonic feels like.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 04:39:47 PM
I love how you put words in my mouth, Blanko. Very classy.

I didn't say that rolling removes all the "problems" with the game. I said that utilizing all of Sonic's tools alleviates all the problems you have with the game. It's as if you played Sonic the hardest way possible without rolling, spin-dashing, or you just went super fast the whole time because "lol dats how u play da gaem". Once again, the marketing for Sonic never said that you would go at top speed 100% of the time. Sega just showcased how the game was faster than other platformers, which is arguable to begin with (but that's irrelevant to the content in the game). Marketing does not determine whether or not a game is good, the game itself does. I could understand your criticisms if Sega advertised the game as a racer where you run around a track several times, but Sonic is not marketed like that at all. It was clearly advertised as a platformer with a fast protagonist. Your false assumptions about Sonic being marketed a certain way is irrelevant to begin with, no one cares wtf Sega said before the game was released. I'm judging the game by its content, not false promises on Sega's part. Even if Sonic doesn't live up to Sega's hype for it (which I think it does, but whatever), it's still a good game in its own way.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: junker on August 05, 2014, 04:47:09 PM
This is when a thread should be locked.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 04:49:50 PM
I love how you put words in my mouth, Blanko. Very classy.

I didn't say that rolling removes all the "problems" with the game. I said that utilizing all of Sonic's tools alleviates all the problems you have with the game. It's as if you played Sonic the hardest way possible without rolling, spin-dashing, or you just went super fast the whole time because "lol dats how u play da gaem". Once again, the marketing for Sonic never said that you would go at top speed 100% of the time. Sega just showcased how the game was faster than other platformers, which is arguably to begin with. Marketing does not determine whether or not a game is good, the game itself does. I could understand your criticisms if Sega advertised the game as a racing game where you run around a track several times, but Sonic is not marketed like that at all.

uuhhh ok lol
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 04:50:26 PM
I win.

(http://s.ecrater.com/stores/236921/4f0a53afe3f4f_236921b.jpg)


^
Obviously implying you are moving super fast 100% of the time. Such liars. Such bad gaem.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 04:51:32 PM
When did I say that the game is bad because of its marketing though
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 04:54:36 PM
When did I say that the game is bad because of its marketing though


Lol. Really?

At the start, your whole thing was Sonic sucks because the game forces you to slow down or come to a complete stop, which flies in the face of how the game was marketed. Did you forget already?


Ironically, a lot of the games' issues would be solved if Sonic was simply much slower. That's where the whole "marketing" thing comes in; his speed only serves the purpose of marketing Blast Processing TM.



Again, that's where the argument on marketing comes in. The developers were hellbent on making Sonic really fucking fast to showcase the BLAAAAAAST PROCESSING that they would rather cover up the downfalls of the system with unnecessary mechanics instead of not having the system in the first place.


You seem to be upset because you think Sega lied to you. "They said I'd go fast all the time! I have to slow down sometimes! What shitty game design!".
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 05:04:23 PM
Ironically, a lot of the games' issues would be solved if Sonic was simply much slower.

Gee, that must mean I really wanted Sonic to be super fast all the time, right? And while we're grabbing quotes:

That is entirely what Sonic is based on. You rarely have to come to a complete stop in 2D Sonic games. If you are, you're doing something wrong. You can breeze through most levels by jumping over every damn obstacle in the game, bouncing off enemies the whole way.


I don't know what to believe anymore. Did Sega lie to us or not?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 05:16:46 PM
I don't even fucking know what we're arguing about anymore.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 05:17:51 PM
That's what happens when you don't actually read any of my posts.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 05, 2014, 05:19:44 PM
I have to agree with Vauxhall to a degree and with Ghost.

Walking slower is a bit sluggish and awkward but that's because the game is about speed. If you slow down to find a passage you give up a good timed run so it really is a game you can play different ways. That doesn't mean it's a bad game with poor mechanics, it means they give you the tools to go fast but you don't have to. But even when you slow down it's not as terrible as Blanko makes it sound. A lot of what you are saying, Blanko, is an exaggeration on the mechanics. When is the last time you played Sonic or Sonic 2?

Some of your argument makes it sound like the game should just be a smooth ride the whole time with no obstacles to break the speed, which sounds like a terrible game.
You said at one point that jumps should cater to the momentum Sonic builds up, which is the case sometimes. You can jump over gaps if you have enough speed or you can jump your way to a new route or secret area in the level if you have enough speed during a jump.

The only real legitimate problem I think might be the reaction time, but again, that would depend on how fast you're going and if you're rolling it's not that dangerous. Your rings will cushion any hit you take and you can just jump back to get a lever or something missed.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 05:19:52 PM
Hey, I read some of them.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 05:44:44 PM
Walking slower is a bit sluggish and awkward but that's because the game is about speed. If you slow down to find a passage you give up a good timed run so it really is a game you can play different ways. That doesn't mean it's a bad game with poor mechanics, it means they give you the tools to go fast but you don't have to. But even when you slow down it's not as terrible as Blanko makes it sound. A lot of what you are saying, Blanko, is an exaggeration on the mechanics. When is the last time you played Sonic or Sonic 2?

It's not as terrible? I'm just going to say the same thing to you that I said to Vauxy: you're not actually denying that these flaws exist. Okay, so you don't think it's as bad as I do, which is to be expected when you actually like these games. But since you admit that these aspects I'm pointing out could be handled a whole lot better, it's pretty much by your subjective taste alone that you can downplay those flaws to your liking. That doesn't mean they're not there.

Quote
Some of your argument makes it sound like the game should just be a smooth ride the whole time with no obstacles to break the speed, which sounds like a terrible game.

I'm sorry that you're interpreting my posts based on how you think they "sound like" instead of what they actually say. May I suggest not doing that instead?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 05, 2014, 07:37:26 PM
No, I said you're supposed to be sacrifing movement for speed. I was referring to the degree of awkwardness is not as terrible as you make it out to be. The mechanic itself is not a flaw. If moving slowly worked perfectly then there'd be no reason to really go fast, you could just mosey through at your own pace. The game encourages you to go fast so slow movement is sluggish. It doesn't seem like a flaw to me.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 07:49:47 PM
So why does the game have slow sections then

Also I literally said how the sluggish slow movement encourages fast gameplay, like I actually stated all of that already
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 07:50:45 PM
So why does the game have slow sections then

Maybe you'd know why if you actually played the games again.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 07:53:46 PM
So why does the game have slow sections then

Maybe you'd know why if you actually played the games again.

>playing shit games

hehahaheah no
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 07:56:26 PM
So why does the game have slow sections then

Maybe you'd know why if you actually played the games again.

>playing shit games

hehahaheah no

Honestly, when was the last time you played a Sonic game on the Genesis?


Was it never?


It was never, wasn't it?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 07:59:05 PM
A couple years ago, I dunno
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 08:05:54 PM
It was never, wasn't it?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 08:07:07 PM
m8
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 05, 2014, 08:35:07 PM
Also I literally said how the sluggish slow movement encourages fast gameplay, like I actually stated all of that already
Then why is sluggish, slow movement a flaw?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 08:36:44 PM
Also I literally said how the sluggish slow movement encourages fast gameplay, like I actually stated all of that already
Then why is sluggish, slow movement a flaw?

Because you are not always allowed to go fast
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 08:45:12 PM
Also I literally said how the sluggish slow movement encourages fast gameplay, like I actually stated all of that already
Then why is sluggish, slow movement a flaw?

Because you are not always allowed to go fast

Fighting games require you to defend and block often, meaning you are not constantly fighting. Do you have a problem with that too?

Shooters require you to reload and hide behind cover, meaning you're not constantly shooting. Do you have a problem with that too?


There are more examples, but you get the gist. Just because you have to stop and slow down sometimes doesn't mean the game is flawed.

Now you're probably going to bring up the marketing aspect, which I think is irrelevant. All video game marketing is exaggerated.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 08:47:30 PM
Uh ok but that's not what we're discussing please keep up

If those things were executed poorly in their respective games then yes I would have a problem with those too
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 08:57:09 PM
If those things were executed poorly in their respective games then yes I would have a problem with those too

Your opinion on why/how it is executed poorly is shaky. This is why I asked you to type up a list of grievances because I'm not entirely clear on your points. I think we have given you several examples as to why the levels are conducive to going fast. Certain parts in the levels require you to slow down, yes, but that's just a convention of the genre. If you have a problem with certain aspects of platformers as a whole I respect that (I do too), but to say that the entire game is flawed because you don't like having to slow down sometimes is silly. Believe it or not, there are people who don't mind having to slow down to catch a platform... maybe they're crazy, who knows.

Maybe nowadays Sega could make a better 2D Sonic game, since the hardware was limited back then... but I doubt it, considering they've tried and failed (I'm looking at you, Sonic 4).
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 09:02:42 PM
m8 we're talking about controls, not levels

Also it's completely bullshit that a game has to use genre conventions
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 09:03:14 PM
Also it's completely bullshit that a game has to use genre conventions

So all games are complete bullshit.

You've been trolling this whole time, huh?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 09:06:41 PM
lol how did you get that from what I said
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 09:07:38 PM
lol how did you get that from what I said

Every game follows some sort of genre convention.


The "I'm going to be vague so no one knows wtf I'm talking about" act is getting tiring.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 09:11:02 PM
Yes, but they typically use conventions that suit their games in particular

Genre conventions don't get a free pass when they don't fit the game as is the case with Sonic
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on August 05, 2014, 09:14:13 PM
lol how did you get that from what I said

Every game follows some sort of genre convention.


The "I'm going to be vague so no one knows wtf I'm talking about" act is getting tiring.

Kind of like how ESO is an MMO, therefore it must be a themepark MMO?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 09:15:14 PM
Genre conventions don't get a free pass when they don't fit the game as is the case with Sonic

According to you.


Kind of like how ESO is an MMO, therefore it must be a themepark MMO?

No. Get out of this thread.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 09:16:24 PM
Genre conventions don't get a free pass when they don't fit the game as is the case with Sonic

According to you.

Why do you think they should

If it's poorly implemented then it's bad, I don't see what else there is to it
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 09:26:27 PM
If it's poorly implemented then it's bad, I don't see what else there is to it

I agree with you.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 09:28:44 PM
Well then
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 09:30:41 PM
Yep.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on August 05, 2014, 09:32:18 PM
Kind of like how ESO is an MMO, therefore it must be a themepark MMO?

No. Get out of this thread.

Isn't that true, though?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 09:43:25 PM
Kind of like how ESO is an MMO, therefore it must be a themepark MMO?

No. Get out of this thread.

Isn't that true, though?


No. Themepark MMO is more of a sub-genre anyways, not a convention. A convention would be something like leveling up or cool-downs.

Maybe I'm missing the point of this strawman.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on August 05, 2014, 09:46:55 PM
Kind of like how ESO is an MMO, therefore it must be a themepark MMO?

No. Get out of this thread.

Isn't that true, though?


No. Themepark MMO is more of a sub-genre anyways, not a convention. A convention would be something like leveling up or cool-downs.

Maybe I'm missing the point of this strawman.

I went to Skyrim. Everything was suddenly 30 levels higher than me. Undeterred, I snuck past everything and even managed to complete a quest without killing anything. I thought the exp gains would be wicked, but they were not. Although the areas are large, they still must be traversed in a very specific order, which really hurts the sense of exploration.

You do know that you're playing an MMO, right?

Never forget
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Vindictus on August 05, 2014, 09:47:50 PM
Themepark MMO's are a convention not a sub genre. Almost every MMO I've ever played follows a themepark model to some extent. Only exception is PS2 and that's because it's not an MMORPG.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 09:48:42 PM
Never forget


(http://i.imgur.com/pp9E4AN.jpg)


Themepark MMO's are a convention not a sub genre. Almost every MMO I've ever played follows a themepark model to some extent. Only exception is PS2 and that's because it's not an MMORPG.

I would consider themepark MMO a sub-genre, because it is comprised of many different specific conventions that make it so. "Themepark MMO" gives you a relatively good idea of what to expect from a game. I think "conventions" should refer to the smaller things in genres, like: jumping, platforms, leveling up, cool downs, equipment menus, dialog boxes, hitpoints, health bars, etc.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Saddam Hussein on August 05, 2014, 09:52:31 PM
On the notion of the Elder Scrolls
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on August 05, 2014, 09:56:17 PM
Themepark MMO's are a convention not a sub genre. Almost every MMO I've ever played follows a themepark model to some extent. Only exception is PS2 and that's because it's not an MMORPG.

Ultima Online, Black Desert, EVE, Darkfall, EverQuest Next, ArcheAge, Star Citizen, Elite: Dangerous, SWG, Shroud of the Avatar... these are all well known sandbox MMOs. Granted, some of them are still being made.

On the notion of the Elder Scrolls

Ultimately, my goal is to shift the topic of every thread on this website to the Elder Scrolls.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Vindictus on August 05, 2014, 09:57:22 PM
They're all terrible because I haven't heard of them/played them.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 05, 2014, 09:57:44 PM
Also I literally said how the sluggish slow movement encourages fast gameplay, like I actually stated all of that already
Then why is sluggish, slow movement a flaw?

Because you are not always allowed to go fast
Which is good because it's not a racing game. If you memorize the level you can almost always go fast. If not then you will get held up somewhere but that's the challenge. The game never promises that you can go fast 100% of the time.

I am confused on what you think the flaw is.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 05, 2014, 10:00:49 PM
Also I literally said how the sluggish slow movement encourages fast gameplay, like I actually stated all of that already
Then why is sluggish, slow movement a flaw?

Because you are not always allowed to go fast
Which is good because it's not a racing game. If you memorize the level you can almost always go fast. If not then you will get held up somewhere but that's the challenge. The game never promises that you can go fast 100% of the time.

I am confused on what you think the flaw is.

Uh... because the controls are sluggish? Hello??
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 05, 2014, 10:30:03 PM
You really do talk in circles.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Vindictus on August 05, 2014, 11:24:04 PM
Controls being sluggish and unavoidable movement restricting obstacles are not the same thing. They're both flaws as well.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 05, 2014, 11:35:50 PM
Controls being sluggish and unavoidable movement restricting obstacles are not the same thing. They're both flaws as well.

A) the controls are not sluggish.

B) no. Are you aware of the definition of obstacles? Sonic's biggest obstacle would obviously be movement restricting ones, since he is mostly unstoppable when at full speed. Most of these are implemented probably so the game doesn't feel stale, many are also used to get you to unaccessible parts of the level and often reward you with power ups, so they are not entirely pointless. I keep bringing up Mario because it is basically the same premise, and you have to stop often and usually for more annoying shit in those games. One of the main goals of Mario is beating the level quickly and these obstacles impede that goal as well, but that's the whole point of obstacles so it is understandable. Every game needs something that hinders your goal or it would be no fun.. I have never seen anyone bitch about waiting for a platform in Mario, so why is it suddenly an issue in Sonic? Marketing never says that you are moving 100% of the time so that is a moot point.

If you're going to make a big deal out of having to stop, then you'd have to make a big deal out of any downtime in any game, and believe me... Every game has points where you're not doing anything, or at least not doing what the main focus of the game is. Once we take into account that this sort of thing happens in all games it becomes really insignificant. Hence: nitpicking.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Vindictus on August 06, 2014, 12:00:42 AM
They're akin to having a bridge in Mario Kart that can only be fallen off of in order to get across, resulting in you stopping completely and while the game drops you on the other side.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 06, 2014, 12:07:36 AM
They're akin to having a bridge in Mario Kart that can only be fallen off of in order to get across, resulting in you stopping completely and while the game drops you on the other side.

No its not. You're retarted.

Did you even read the post?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on August 06, 2014, 12:10:17 AM
They're akin to having a bridge in Mario Kart that can only be fallen off of in order to get across, resulting in you stopping completely and while the game drops you on the other side.

No its not. You're retarted.

Did you even read the post?

Have you ever even played a video game before?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 06, 2014, 12:13:47 AM
I've played Battlezone, so I think I know a bit about games.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 06, 2014, 12:20:03 AM
Why is Sonic moving slowly or stopping a flaw?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on August 06, 2014, 12:21:07 AM
Why is Sonic moving slowly or stopping a flaw?

That isn't the whole problem. The problem is that there are obstacles that interrupt momentum that cannot be avoided, unless you already know they're coming. Or so I've been told.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 06, 2014, 12:31:27 AM
Why is Sonic moving slowly or stopping a flaw?

That isn't the whole problem. The problem is that there are obstacles that interrupt momentum that cannot be avoided, unless you already know they're coming. Or so I've been told.
No, Alex. Rooster's question is your argument. Why are those things a flaw?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on August 06, 2014, 12:36:13 AM
I've never played any of the games in question, and I'm not actually making an argument. However, if the game hits you with obstacles that are impossible to react to, that would be a flaw.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 06, 2014, 12:40:43 AM
I've never played any of the games in question, and I'm not actually making an argument. However, if the game hits you with obstacles that are impossible to react to, that would be a flaw.

Do you honestly think platforms in a platformer are flaws??

*mindblown*
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on August 06, 2014, 12:42:55 AM
I've never played any of the games in question, and I'm not actually making an argument. However, if the game hits you with obstacles that are impossible to react to, that would be a flaw.

Do you honestly think platforms in a platformer are flaws??

*mindblown*

If you look carefully at what I posted, you'll see that I actually didn't say that, or even imply it.

Mind.

Blowned.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 06, 2014, 12:43:47 AM
I've never played any of the games in question, and I'm not actually making an argument. However, if the game hits you with obstacles that are impossible to react to, that would be a flaw.

Do you honestly think platforms in a platformer are flaws??

*mindblown*

If you look carefully at what I posted, you'll see that I actually didn't say that, or even imply it.

Mind.

Blowned.

Blanko considers stopping for platforms a flaw. Among other things.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on August 06, 2014, 12:46:52 AM
I've never played any of the games in question, and I'm not actually making an argument. However, if the game hits you with obstacles that are impossible to react to, that would be a flaw.

Do you honestly think platforms in a platformer are flaws??

*mindblown*

If you look carefully at what I posted, you'll see that I actually didn't say that, or even imply it.

Mind.

Blowned.

Blanko considers stopping for platforms a flaw. Among other things.

Okay. Do you want me to talk to him about that for you, or...?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 06, 2014, 12:48:15 AM
I've never played any of the games in question, and I'm not actually making an argument. However, if the game hits you with obstacles that are impossible to react to, that would be a flaw.

Do you honestly think platforms in a platformer are flaws??

*mindblown*

If you look carefully at what I posted, you'll see that I actually didn't say that, or even imply it.

Mind.

Blowned.

Blanko considers stopping for platforms a flaw. Among other things.

Okay. Do you want me to talk to him about that for you, or...?

You seemed to inject yourself into the conversation with absolutely no background knowledge of the subject, so sure.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on August 06, 2014, 12:51:28 AM
We're getting off topic. Let's split the thread again.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 06, 2014, 12:54:57 AM
I think I'll have to piss Snupes off again for that to happen.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Vindictus on August 06, 2014, 01:00:54 AM
This thread is the most disappointing thing since 'dark souls is terrible'.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 06, 2014, 01:30:30 AM
I think I'll have to piss Snupes off again for that to happen.
I am genuinely curious why you're so buttdisgruntled about a routine thread split. It wasn't even my idea, you know
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 06, 2014, 01:31:48 AM
I think I'll have to piss Snupes off again for that to happen.
I am genuinely curious why you're so buttdisgruntled about a routine thread split. It wasn't even my idea, you know

I am just making fun. We all love you, Snupes.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 06, 2014, 01:34:24 AM
How fast does it take for someone to react to something?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on August 06, 2014, 01:37:15 AM
I am just making fun. We all love you, Snupes.

Incorrect. 0.5 people here love me, and half of those people are Parsifal.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: spoon on August 06, 2014, 03:41:56 AM
I am just making fun. We all love you, Snupes.

Incorrect. 0.5 people here love me, and half of those people are Parsifal.

Who's the other .25?
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Foxbox on August 06, 2014, 03:43:18 AM
I am just making fun. We all love you, Snupes.

Incorrect. 0.5 people here love me, and half of those people are Parsifal.

Who's the other .25?

fox e
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 06, 2014, 04:26:53 AM
You really do talk in circles.

No, you do. You're the one who said that the sluggish movement is fine when you're encouraged to go fast; thus, when you're not encouraged to go fast, it's not fine. I really don't see how it can be any more simple than that.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 06, 2014, 04:28:07 AM
You really do talk in circles.

No, you do. You're the one who said that the sluggish movement is fine when you're encouraged to go fast; thus, when you're not encouraged to go fast, it's not fine. I really don't see how it can be any more simple than that.

That is actually very confusing.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 06, 2014, 04:29:26 AM
You really do talk in circles.

No, you do. You're the one who said that the sluggish movement is fine when you're encouraged to go fast; thus, when you're not encouraged to go fast, it's not fine. I really don't see how it can be any more simple than that.

That is actually very confusing.

I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 06, 2014, 04:31:25 AM
Blanko doesn't know how to logic. Just because A implies B (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional#Definitions_of_the_material_conditional) doesn't mean that NOT A implies NOT B. The original implication makes no statement about the implications of the opposite condition.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Ghost of V on August 06, 2014, 04:35:25 AM
The fact that Sonic provokes such deep and logical thinking just goes to show how great the games truly are.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 06, 2014, 04:36:59 AM
The fact that Sonic provokes such deep and logical thinking just goes to show how great the games truly are.
No, this society has seen several dozen pages of arguing whether or not north and south are opposites. We're just crazy.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 06, 2014, 04:45:54 AM
Blanko doesn't know how to logic. Just because A implies B (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional#Definitions_of_the_material_conditional) doesn't mean that NOT A implies NOT B. The original implication makes no statement about the implications of the opposite condition.

Indeed, but we've already covered those implications, which is why this shouldn't be that hard. Encouragement to go fast was the given justification for the sluggish controls. When you can't go fast, that justification doesn't apply. And we don't have another one. So, either the sluggish controls are justified for another reason (which we don't have), or they are not fine.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 06, 2014, 04:47:21 AM
So, either the sluggish controls are justified for another reason (which we don't have), or they are not fine.
Correct. You are in no position to assume one or the other.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 06, 2014, 04:59:59 AM
So, either the sluggish controls are justified for another reason (which we don't have), or they are not fine.
Correct. You are in no position to assume one or the other.

I am in a position to hold a view, and I'm explaining my reasoning behind it. If people offered alternative justifications then that view might change, but so far that has yet to happen.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 06, 2014, 10:10:45 AM
I think you can always go fast enough for the controls to not be sluggish. You don't have to be going full speed for his movement to be more controlled.

Plus, you can always stop and spin-up so you aren't ever forced to run slowly to build up speed.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on August 06, 2014, 11:16:34 AM
I think you can always go fast enough for the controls to not be sluggish.

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: rooster on August 06, 2014, 11:23:43 AM
I think you can always go fast enough for the controls to not be sluggish.

Incorrect.
How well do you remember the game?

If you have to stop for a platform that's fine. Jumping isn't the sluggish part, just changing direction is. And once you're past the platform you can just press down and spin your speed up again.
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Particle Person on July 06, 2015, 05:14:07 PM
Wherein we argued for 11 pages over the validity of the phrase "gotta go fast"
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Vongeo on July 06, 2015, 05:41:55 PM
What about when's yous cans fulfills yours motherlys instincts raising chaos in mortal combat and death races

Also furry porn
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on July 06, 2015, 07:46:29 PM
Blanko quit
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Blanko on July 07, 2015, 03:28:52 PM
Blanko quit

Can't argue with people who delete their accounts m8
Title: Re: Sonic games are literally the worst
Post by: Снупс on July 07, 2015, 06:54:06 PM
Rooster deleted her account? [emoji14]