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Offline Rushy

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #260 on: October 16, 2020, 01:17:12 PM »
Constitutional amendments are the legal process. Reasonable restrictions on rights often illuminated by the judiciary are a way to constrain rights. So there are ways legal
ways to impose policy positions on gun ownership.

That being said, I seriously doubt your guns will be taken away, but it’s not unreasonable to attribute that position to him. Guns are sadly too ingrained in your culture.

Constitutional amendments do not determine human rights. If a constitutional amendment made it illegal to be X religion, to be X race, or to own a home or business, it would also be rightfully ignored. If this were the case in your country, you would (hopefully) ignore such laws as well.

That said, your overall point is correct. Biden does not have the personal or political power to actually take away guns, but he does have the desire to do so.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 01:20:06 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #261 on: October 16, 2020, 01:42:37 PM »
Constitutional amendments are the legal process. Reasonable restrictions on rights often illuminated by the judiciary are a way to constrain rights. So there are ways legal
ways to impose policy positions on gun ownership.

That being said, I seriously doubt your guns will be taken away, but it’s not unreasonable to attribute that position to him. Guns are sadly too ingrained in your culture.

Constitutional amendments do not determine human rights. If a constitutional amendment made it illegal to be X religion, to be X race, or to own a home or business, it would also be rightfully ignored. If this were the case in your country, you would (hopefully) ignore such laws as well.

That said, your overall point is correct. Biden does not have the personal or political power to actually take away guns, but he does have the desire to do so.

Where is gun ownership described as a fundamental human right? I haven’t seen it described that way and there is no prohibition against it being repealed. The international community certainly doesn’t uphold gun ownership as fundamental.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #262 on: October 16, 2020, 03:21:03 PM »
So gun ownership is a fundamental human right but healthcare isn't, ok
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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #263 on: October 16, 2020, 03:38:47 PM »
Assault rifles are already banned in the US. Democrats want to ban "assault weapons" which is their entirely self-created term that means "any gun we don't like". Also, Biden is refusing to say he won't pack the SCOTUS just to get his way.

Surely you don't have a problem with politicians vying to get the justices they want on SCOTUS to further their agenda?
Weapon ownership is a human right and no legal process exists to prevent it.

It is not a human right.  Its a US right, but not a human one.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #264 on: October 16, 2020, 04:09:38 PM »
Where is gun ownership described as a fundamental human right? I haven’t seen it described that way and there is no prohibition against it being repealed. The international community certainly doesn’t uphold gun ownership as fundamental.

Everywhere.

So gun ownership is a fundamental human right but healthcare isn't, ok

One requires that you take other people's money to pay for something, the other does not. You're not entitled to other people's products or labor. A doctor doesn't have to care for you. A nurse doesn't have to tend to you. It's impossible for healthcare to be a human right.

It is not a human right.  Its a US right, but not a human one.

Incorrect.


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Offline Roundy

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #265 on: October 16, 2020, 04:17:31 PM »
Where is gun ownership described as a fundamental human right? I haven’t seen it described that way and there is no prohibition against it being repealed. The international community certainly doesn’t uphold gun ownership as fundamental.

Everywhere.

So gun ownership is a fundamental human right but healthcare isn't, ok

One requires that you take other people's money to pay for something, the other does not. You're not entitled to other people's products or labor. A doctor doesn't have to care for you. A nurse doesn't have to tend to you. It's impossible for healthcare to be a human right.

It is not a human right.  Its a US right, but not a human one.

Incorrect.

You're just using arguments that fit your opinion, you haven't logically supported that gun ownership is a fundamental human right.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #266 on: October 16, 2020, 04:18:12 PM »
Where is gun ownership described as a fundamental human right? I haven’t seen it described that way and there is no prohibition against it being repealed. The international community certainly doesn’t uphold gun ownership as fundamental.

Everywhere.

Can you give me one source from the US government that says so?

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #267 on: October 16, 2020, 05:26:13 PM »
Well Rushy, I have here the UN human rights declaration.

https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

So kindly tell us which version of human rights you are using as I know its not this one.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #268 on: October 16, 2020, 07:55:20 PM »
You're just using arguments that fit your opinion

Well, yes, that's the fundamental basis for all arguments.

you haven't logically supported that gun ownership is a fundamental human right.

There's no such thing as logical support of a right. For example, saying "human beings have a right to live" is just an opinion. You can approach an opinion logically but ultimately it's still just an opinion.

Can you give me one source from the US government that says so?

Governments do not determine human rights.

Well Rushy, I have here the UN human rights declaration.

https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

So kindly tell us which version of human rights you are using as I know its not this one.

If the UN said "Asians do not have the right to live", would you think "well, it's the UN, so I must agree"? If not, then obviously the UN isn't actually the source of human rights and your point is nonsense.


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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #269 on: October 16, 2020, 09:11:03 PM »
Ahhh, I figured you were using your own personal definition.

Welp, nothing to argue then. 

Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #270 on: October 16, 2020, 09:21:46 PM »
One requires that you take other people's money to pay for something, the other does not. You're not entitled to other people's products or labor. A doctor doesn't have to care for you. A nurse doesn't have to tend to you. It's impossible for healthcare to be a human right.

my dude, private insurance already works on exactly the same principle. your insurer doesn't set your dollars aside for you in case you need them later. they spend the money you give them on other people's healthcare. that's just how any kind of group insurance works. you're paying for it to be available to you when you need it.

i do not understand this quixotic quest to preserve the "freedom" to not spend money on healthcare. that's not a genuine freedom. i don't think i've ever met a single human who wants to make that choice. and that's because it isn't really a free and un-coerced choice. everyone wants to not be sick and debilitated. being sick and debilitated are anathema to freedom.

put another way: "i have to pay these taxes because i don't want to lose freedom by going to jail" is qualitatively identical to "i have to pay my private insurance bill because i don't want to lose freedom by getting sick and not having any healthcare." they're both coerced choices.

the only real consideration is — how do we min-max cost and access to a service that literally everyone requires? right now we have a system of private firms that minimize access and maximize costs for the purpose of extracting profit from the coerced choice to purchase health insurance. how about instead we have a system that operates on literally precisely the same principle as private insurance, but actually provides a service.

tbh if the choice were between single-payer and private insurance with the same access to healthcare, then i'd probably be more sympathetic to your view. i dunno about you, but my plan is currently "give us lots of money now for the privilege of still paying lots of money out-of-pocket when you need healthcare later."
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 09:27:59 PM by garygreen »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #271 on: October 16, 2020, 09:34:47 PM »
Can you give me one source from the US government that says so?

Governments do not determine human rights.

On what basis are you saying gun ownership is described as a fundamental right everywhere?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #272 on: October 16, 2020, 10:19:52 PM »
my dude, private insurance already works on exactly the same principle. your insurer doesn't set your dollars aside for you in case you need them later. they spend the money you give them on other people's healthcare. that's just how any kind of group insurance works. you're paying for it to be available to you when you need it.

i do not understand this quixotic quest to preserve the "freedom" to not spend money on healthcare. that's not a genuine freedom. i don't think i've ever met a single human who wants to make that choice. and that's because it isn't really a free and un-coerced choice. everyone wants to not be sick and debilitated. being sick and debilitated are anathema to freedom.

put another way: "i have to pay these taxes because i don't want to lose freedom by going to jail" is qualitatively identical to "i have to pay my private insurance bill because i don't want to lose freedom by getting sick and not having any healthcare." they're both coerced choices.

the only real consideration is — how do we min-max cost and access to a service that literally everyone requires? right now we have a system of private firms that minimize access and maximize costs for the purpose of extracting profit from the coerced choice to purchase health insurance. how about instead we have a system that operates on literally precisely the same principle as private insurance, but actually provides a service.

tbh if the choice were between single-payer and private insurance with the same access to healthcare, then i'd probably be more sympathetic to your view. i dunno about you, but my plan is currently "give us lots of money now for the privilege of still paying lots of money out-of-pocket when you need healthcare later."

Private insurance is voluntary and makes people pay based on their individual status. If a person is more likely to require expensive healthcare, an insurer will give them a higher premium to offset their costs. The government cannot (and should not) charge people based on their healthcare choices. Asking for public healthcare, and considering it a right, is the equivalent of asking the government to do things like regulate health as a whole. No, the system is not perfect, but it's better than moving the cost to the government. What you'll end up with is a bad case of regulatory capture. (or, you know, exactly what happened with ACA). Moving the cost to the government makes healthcare cheaper in much the same way as having the government pay for higher learning makes tuition for colleges go down: ergo, it doesn't.

I would only agree with public healthcare alongside the introductions of things like sugar taxes, higher drug taxes, and mandated DNA tests to determine if you should be charged more for expected complications. In other words, if the government gets involved in the healthcare business, it should be all of it, not just fronting the cost of healthcare to taxpayers who shouldn't be responsible for it. Personally, I don't think the government should do any of that and therefore it should stay out of healthcare. Unless you want to tax people for being fat, you shouldn't want public healthcare, either.

Ahhh, I figured you were using your own personal definition.

Welp, nothing to argue then. 

You never answered my question. If the UN determined that X race has no right to live, would you agree with it? The answer is almost certainly 'no' and that means you're the one deciding what are human rights and not the UN. Ultimately, rights are up to you to decide for yourself, not for some government or psuedo-government to lecture to you.

On what basis are you saying gun ownership is described as a fundamental right everywhere?

The basis that human rights do not suddenly exist in some places and not in others. You are confused between what's legal and illegal and what's a human right. The two are not connected at all.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 10:24:06 PM by Rushy »

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Offline JSS

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #273 on: October 16, 2020, 10:24:55 PM »
mandated DNA tests to determine if you should be charged more for expected complications

Why should anyone have to pay more because of this?  The whole point to insurance is that everyone chips in and the money goes to who needs it.  You are healthy and don't have any genetic problems, well good for you, feel lucky you DON'T need to use it as much as others, don't get upset because you have to 'waste' money on insurance you don't need.

Why have insurance at all if you're just going to force people to pay for their misfortune and bad luck?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #274 on: October 16, 2020, 10:29:48 PM »
mandated DNA tests to determine if you should be charged more for expected complications

Why should anyone have to pay more because of this?  The whole point to insurance is that everyone chips in and the money goes to who needs it.  You are healthy and don't have any genetic problems, well good for you, feel lucky you DON'T need to use it as much as others, don't get upset because you have to 'waste' money on insurance you don't need.

Why have insurance at all if you're just going to force people to pay for their misfortune and bad luck?

Insurance is fundamentally a bet that the insurer will make more money than they'll expend taking care of the collective insured. The betting odds change based on how healthy you are. If the government is paying a cost based on betting, how is it not fair that the government get a better idea of the odds?

If the odds are that a given person will cost more money, then that person should be required to pay a higher cost over time to offset the chance they'll require more money. The most common healthcare problems are often entirely voluntary. Drinking, obesity, reckless driving, smoking, unprotected sex, these are all voluntary items that increase the cost of healthcare to the individual. Why should a taxpayer who chooses none of these things be forced to pay for one who does?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #275 on: October 16, 2020, 10:36:56 PM »
mandated DNA tests to determine if you should be charged more for expected complications

Why should anyone have to pay more because of this?  The whole point to insurance is that everyone chips in and the money goes to who needs it.  You are healthy and don't have any genetic problems, well good for you, feel lucky you DON'T need to use it as much as others, don't get upset because you have to 'waste' money on insurance you don't need.

Why have insurance at all if you're just going to force people to pay for their misfortune and bad luck?

Insurance is fundamentally a bet that the insurer will make more money than they'll expend taking care of the collective insured. The betting odds change based on how healthy you are. If the government is paying a cost based on betting, how is it not fair that the government get a better idea of the odds?

If the odds are that a given person will cost more money, then that person should be required to pay a higher cost over time to offset the chance they'll require more money. The most common healthcare problems are often entirely voluntary. Drinking, obesity, reckless driving, smoking, unprotected sex, these are all voluntary items that increase the cost of healthcare to the individual. Why should a taxpayer who chooses none of these things be forced to pay for one who does?

So that when nature decides to get you, you don't have to worry about going bankrupt because you can't afford healthcare.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #276 on: October 16, 2020, 10:42:50 PM »
So that when nature decides to get you, you don't have to worry about going bankrupt because you can't afford healthcare.

When nature decides to 'get you', your overall cost should go up. I don't disagree with the idea that healthcare requires better regulation and price gouging should be eliminated, but the idea that it is a right is nonsense.

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #277 on: October 16, 2020, 11:02:33 PM »
mandated DNA tests to determine if you should be charged more for expected complications

Why should anyone have to pay more because of this?  The whole point to insurance is that everyone chips in and the money goes to who needs it.  You are healthy and don't have any genetic problems, well good for you, feel lucky you DON'T need to use it as much as others, don't get upset because you have to 'waste' money on insurance you don't need.

Why have insurance at all if you're just going to force people to pay for their misfortune and bad luck?

Insurance is fundamentally a bet that the insurer will make more money than they'll expend taking care of the collective insured. The betting odds change based on how healthy you are. If the government is paying a cost based on betting, how is it not fair that the government get a better idea of the odds?

If the odds are that a given person will cost more money, then that person should be required to pay a higher cost over time to offset the chance they'll require more money. The most common healthcare problems are often entirely voluntary. Drinking, obesity, reckless driving, smoking, unprotected sex, these are all voluntary items that increase the cost of healthcare to the individual. Why should a taxpayer who chooses none of these things be forced to pay for one who does?

Because this isn't a game.  It's not about keeping score and making sure health care is fair.  Life isn't fair.  It's not fair to be diagnosed with cancer when you're 6.

It's immoral to deny health care to people just because they weren't born to rich parents or fell into the wrong risk group.  Dying because of where you were born? That's not fair.

If you are concerned people are doing unhealthy things and it's not fair they get health care, well tax the things you don't like, you mentioned that before.

But don't deny people health care based on risk factors they can't control.  The US healthcare system is a disaster. People shouldn't have to die because a corporation wants more profits.

I know people in other countries would never have survived to be an adult here because they couldn't have paid for care they needed.  Do they not deserve to live?  Are their lives worthless because their parents were not wealthy? 

I'm sorry if you feel your forced to pay for other peoples health care.  I hope you continue to be forced to pay for others, it's way better than being the one that needs it.  Consider yourself lucky.

You don't want to go down the road of deciding who should get care based on their life choices.  After all, smokers actually cost the government LESS because on average they die early from aggressive cancers and don't live long enough to collect lots of benefits and need years of expensive end of life care.  If you're going to value a life purely on how much the government has to spend on them you might find yourself the one being thrown out into the cold.  Your healthy living is going to be expensive in the long run after all. 

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #278 on: October 17, 2020, 12:20:30 AM »
So that when nature decides to get you, you don't have to worry about going bankrupt because you can't afford healthcare.

When nature decides to 'get you', your overall cost should go up. I don't disagree with the idea that healthcare requires better regulation and price gouging should be eliminated, but the idea that it is a right is nonsense.

Makes a lot more sense than gun ownership being a right.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Joe Biden is winning by a landslide
« Reply #279 on: October 17, 2020, 01:14:59 AM »
Quote
But don't deny people health care based on risk factors they can't control.  The US healthcare system is a disaster. People shouldn't have to die because a corporation wants more profits.

There already is socialized medicine in the US. It's called medicaid for the poor and medicare for the old. Millions are on it, and use it to get healthcare.

Why should people who can afford healthcare get it too?
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