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Offline rooster

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #180 on: June 18, 2020, 04:04:01 PM »
What benefit do any of us have from a police force that kills far too many people without cause and without repercussions?

Shooting people in the back while the victim is running away, shooting people in their own homes after they burst into the wrong house, shooting children with toys, suffocating people for suspicion of petty crimes, etc. No one benefits from this aside from the police and racists. But even racists should be scared of a police force that has no accountability. It will only grow worse if it continues unchecked and end up affecting them too. Unfortunately, some people are devoid of empathy and forethought and can't see that.

Like I said in my initial post, cops are largely ineffective in most situations. There's no point in them having this much money, power, and authority when it fails to serve the public. There are officers that also believe it's a problem. Politicians give them power to do too much, spreading their workforce too thin for stupid things they're not adequately trained for like dog-catching. Our country has many deep problems not only with systematic racism, but underfunded schools leading to shit education, underfunded resources for drug addiction, underfunded resources for homelessness, etc. And we ask the under-trained and often cowardly/racist police to deal with any problems that arise from these failings.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 02:46:39 AM by rooster »

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #181 on: June 18, 2020, 04:32:16 PM »
In my own life, I have encountered police discrimination, specifically against black people, more than once:

1. My step father (a black man) was pulled over in Memphis, TN while driving my mother (a white woman) in her car. Upon coming up to the window, the officer looked at my mom and asked, "Is everything ok?". When my mom said, "yes!" the officer, pauses for a few moments, and says something like, "OK, just wanted to make sure." and sent them on their way. Clearly he was pulled over for "driving while black" AND suspicion of coercing/kidnapping a white woman.

2. My step father told me of a story in which he was stopped by two officers, I can't remember all the details, but they "arrested" him and drove him out to a lake outside of town where they proceeded to beat the living daylight out of him and left him for dead.

3. I was driving a friend of mine (a black man) to the hospital because he was having a major asthma attack and could not breathe. The hospital was 20 minutes away, so I was going about 90 MPH when I came upon a state trooper who was radaring. I see the officer, and immediately slow down and pull over because I assumed he would give us an escort of some kind once we realized my friend was minutes from dying. He did not. He looked at my friend, who is gasping for air and can barely mutter the words, "I can't breathe". The officer says, you need to go the speed limit, and he lets us go, but then proceeds to follow us down the highway (not lead, follows) to make sure I will not continue to speed. SeriouslY????? So f'd up. If my friend would have died that night, I would have held that officer personally responsible for failing to respond to an emergency and failing to help someone who was clearly in bad shape. Had my friend been white, I have no doubt he would have escorted us to the hospital.

"noche te ipsum"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #182 on: June 19, 2020, 08:07:37 AM »
"Four months before he was killed, Rayshard Brooks opened up about his life and the US justice system. In the interview, Brooks says that the justice system treats people like 'animals'."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2020/jun/18/rayshard-brooks-says-us-justice-system-treats-people-like-animals-in-interview-before-his-death
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totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #183 on: June 19, 2020, 10:15:50 AM »
Does them knowing each other mitigate the killing of George Floyd?
Of course not; however, it does throw water on the idea the killing had anything to do with race.

That doesn’t follow at all. You can know someone and still be racist towards them.
It kinda does...had there been any indication of racism on the part Chauvin prior to this, especially with the way the media is right now, that most certainly would have been plastered all over the headlines.

No hate crime charges either...unless you want to write the DA and suggest that...let us know when you got that accomplished.

I should be clearer, I am not sure if there is racism involved here, and neither are you.
Yeah, I am sure there isn't.
I understand that in a court if there was a more likely motivation for Floyd's killing, then that would cast doubt on racism being a motivator.  Ultimately, this event was a flashpoint for the events that followed.  Another black man was unnecessarily killed by the police and the black people of the USA were fed up and for good reasons.  Black people, when you control for other factors, are over-represented to a suspicious degree and it's been going on for decades.
Just good ole horse hockey.

Black people are not over represented.

When you commit more crime, you are going to encounter the police more often.

This goes for everyone.
It isn't surprising that this happened, in the context of a tanking economy and people having nothing to distract them.  I am not saying I agree with the violence that has broken out, I don't but the peaceful protests are a positive and necessary force for change in the US.
If you think anything is gonna change for the good out of this, you are blind.
Police need to be trained to a higher standard so they can be held to a higher standard, in my opinion.
An opinion is always a lovely thing.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 11:32:04 AM by totallackey »

totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #184 on: June 19, 2020, 10:19:33 AM »
@totallackey

With regards to police training - since you are so keen on it - let's not forget that it is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away - don't you think that would apply to a gun as well? Police officers are also trained to give medical assistance to someone they have just shot - this officer just stood on him.
I have no clue where you got the idea that it is against Atlanta Police Department procedures to shoot someone who has a taser.

You conveniently ignored the latter part of the statement, so I'll restate it for you, only bolded this time:

"it is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away.

The man was shot in the back.
Really quite the chuckle from this...

Kindly post the policy...directly and put your own emphasis on those exact words as written in policy.

You know..."It is AGAINST Atlanta police policy to shoot someone with a taser while they are running away..."...that portion.

I will let you know right now I am sending you on a snipe hunt, as you will not find that in the Atlanta Police Department Policy Manual or SOP manual.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 11:39:04 AM by totallackey »

totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #185 on: June 19, 2020, 10:23:06 AM »
4.2 Use of Deadly Force
(CALEA 6th ed. Standard 4.2.1)
An employee may use deadly force to apprehend a suspected felon only when:
1. He or she reasonably believes that the suspect possesses a deadly weapon or any object,
device, or instrument which, when used offensively against a person, is likely to or actually
does result in serious bodily injury and when he or she reasonably believes that the suspect
poses an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others; or
2. When there is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving
the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm (O.C.G.A. Section 17-4-20) and
the employee reasonably believes that the suspect’s escape would create a continuing
danger of serious physical harm to any person.

Anyone who doesn't think a person who has wrestled with police and successfully stolen a taser from the police during that wrestling does not pose a threat of serious bodily injury to others is either purposefully obtuse or just plain ignorant.

No. 2 is totally non-applicable to the Brooks case. No probable cause to suspect a prior crime, so first clause fails.
Bull cookies.

Rayshard Brooks already committed felony assault on a police officer prior to being shot.

That is more than probable cause.
No. 1 must satisfy both clauses, and whilst the first clause is clear, he was in possession of a taser, the second is not, as there had been no indication prior to him running away that he had any intent to cause harm, either to the public or to the officers. All that you can take from his actions is that he wanted to get away.

"... and when he or she reasonably believes that the suspect poses an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others"
Yeah, it was reasonable to assume Rayshard Brooks posed an immediate threat because he already committed the assault.

Please stop with the total BS.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 11:22:13 AM by totallackey »

totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #186 on: June 19, 2020, 10:31:30 AM »
"Four months before he was killed, Rayshard Brooks opened up about his life and the US justice system. In the interview, Brooks says that the justice system treats people like 'animals'."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2020/jun/18/rayshard-brooks-says-us-justice-system-treats-people-like-animals-in-interview-before-his-death
Rayshard Brooks treated his children like animals.

Rayshard Brooks was a domestic abuser who treated his wife like an animal.

Thank God he cannot do that anymore.

Thank God this animal is gone.

He has no claim to being some sort of victim or saint.

At least one third of his life was dedicated toward victimizing others.

Definitely the last three minutes of his life were dedicated to victimize the police officer who justifiably shot that scumbag.

"Brooks was convicted of several crimes — including obstructing an officer, family battery violence, possessing weapons during a crime, receiving stolen property, felony cruelty to children, interfering with custody, false imprisonment, snatching his children without permission from the mother, and battery."

https://www.yc.news/2020/06/15/rayshard-brooks-own-family-accused-him-of-cruelty-to-children-family-battery-beatings/
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 11:21:13 AM by totallackey »

totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #187 on: June 19, 2020, 10:50:33 AM »
What benefit do any of us have from a police force that kills far too many people without cause and without repercussions?
We all get more benefit from even imperfect police than from shitbag criminals who roam the streets with impunity and kill far more people.

As a matter of fact, even if the police in the US killed 1000 a year more of the people they deal with on a day to day basis, I would perceive police in the US as being of more benefit to society as a whole than those who died could ever hope to contribute.

Nice try though...
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 02:56:20 PM by totallackey »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #188 on: June 19, 2020, 11:36:14 AM »
Rayshard Brooks already committed felony assault on a police officer prior to being shot.

Does not satisfy clause 2, which states;

"probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm"

What "serious physical harm" to the officers?

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/13/us/atlanta-police-shooting-wendys/index.html

"Brooks was taken to a hospital, where he died, the statement said. One officer was treated for an injury and released, the GBI said." - Doesn't sound serious.

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totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #189 on: June 19, 2020, 11:50:30 AM »
Rayshard Brooks already committed felony assault on a police officer prior to being shot.

Does not satisfy clause 2, which states;

"probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm"

What "serious physical harm" to the officers?
Holy crap...

He had a taser, which he took from the officer, which he fired at the officer, and had already physically overcame the officer once in order to do that.

Probable cause was already established.

Firing a taser at someone threatens them with serious physical harm.

Rayshard Brooks did that.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/13/us/atlanta-police-shooting-wendys/index.html

"Brooks was taken to a hospital, where he died, the statement said. One officer was treated for an injury and released, the GBI said." - Doesn't sound serious.
Doesn't even matter if it was serious or not.

What matters is that Rayshard Brooks committed felony assault on a police officer, and threatened to inflict serious physical harm on the officer when he fired the taser at the police officer.

Probable cause was satisfied at that point.

Stop trying to defend the indefensible as you lack the ability to even satisfactorily interpret what you read in the procedure.

The case of Rayshard Brooks satisfied BOTH clauses and it only needed to satisfy ONE of the clauses.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 12:12:14 PM by totallackey »

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Offline rooster

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #190 on: June 19, 2020, 03:16:54 PM »
As a matter of fact, even if the police in the US killed 1000 a year more of the people they deal with on a day to day basis, I would perceive police in the US as being of more benefit to society as a whole than those who died could ever hope to contribute.
Literally what?

Alright, lol there's just no point. You clearly just hate people unless they put on a cop uniform. There's no reasonable way to think like this - wanting to uphold the useless and ineffective murder force over actually trying to fix shitty systems in place that create petty criminals and continues to push down petty criminals. Rich white dudes don't have to worry about the police or any crimes they commit.

Since you hate "criminals" so much, I'd think you'd be very interested in programs that help communities and children succeed which would ACTUALLY cut down on crime rates. Cops are just there so that people with blinders on can look the other way and be glad that the drunk black man is gone.

Your theoretical life of criminal "shitbags" roaming the streets is just your fantasy but cops murdering people is real and a huge fucking problem. But I'm done. You're clearly just a weird fascist troll or something.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 05:46:34 PM by rooster »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #191 on: June 19, 2020, 03:53:35 PM »
Firing a taser at someone threatens them with serious physical harm.

A taser has a limited range. Brooks was running away from the police officers. They should know the range in which it operates, and it stands to reason that the further he runs, the less likely or outright impossible it becomes that they will be in danger from it, in the hands of an untrained operator, as he moves farther and out of range.

They have the whole resources of their dept behind them, they've taken details of his car and his ID, and again, there's no indication Brooks meant any harm to any member of the public, so all they had to do was tail him at a distance

Doesn't even matter if it was serious or not.  The case of Rayshard Brooks satisfied BOTH clauses and it only needed to satisfy ONE of the clauses.

It does matter, because the use of force regs specify it. There are four clauses, in the form

1. (Clause 1) and (Clause 2); or
2. (Clause 3) and (Clause 4)

So either para 1 OR para 2 can justify use of force, but if applying one of these paras, then BOTH clauses in the numbered para MUST be satisfied. They are not.

Clause 1 fails because the taser is a temporary incapacitation device, not "likely to cause serious bodily injury"
Clause 2 fails due to lack of indicated intent to use the taser toward others, and by the holder of the taser running AWAY from the officers.

Clause 3 fails due to lack of "serious physical harm", and clause 4 fails because there cannot be a "continuing" threat of something that was lacking in the first place. 

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #192 on: June 19, 2020, 03:58:44 PM »
In other news, police are now arresting, and threatening with arrest, pro-bono attorneys and public defenders, denying them access to their clients.

Police in Richmond are using snipers to shoot at the phones of protesters who attempt to document their experiences.

In another instance, police at ground level fired at the second floor of an apartment building, at someone who was videoing from within their own home.

Police in Bethel, Ohio, watched an assault on a BLM protester take place right in front of them, and did nothing to apprehend the assaulter.
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #193 on: June 19, 2020, 08:34:37 PM »
I wonder how much more this has to escalate before americans form a militia against the government just like their amendment allows for
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #194 on: June 19, 2020, 08:57:26 PM »
all i heard from the gop during the kavanaugh hearings was how outrageous it would be to deny someone a supreme court seat over a crime they were never convicted of.

but publicly executing black folks for crimes they were never convicted of is totally cool.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #195 on: June 19, 2020, 09:37:28 PM »
It's usually not Yale graduates with long histories of reputable employment and a complete lack of criminal records getting killed by cops. It's funny that this usually devolves into "his only crime was being black!" when the person in question usually has a long history of armed robbery, assault, and other combined factors that make their untimely demise at the hand of law enforcement seem less a case of racism and more a case of inevitability.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 09:41:42 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #196 on: June 19, 2020, 09:50:00 PM »
It's usually not Yale graduates with long histories of reputable employment and a complete lack of criminal records getting killed by cops.

Rushy's right guys, these people tend to be lowlifes, why should they deserve special treatment like not being killed by cops?
Go kicking and screaming, lol, it all means the same on January 21st.

Before this is over I'm betting you eat those landslide words :)

Another gullible, delusional "Independent" ::)

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #197 on: June 19, 2020, 09:57:26 PM »
It's usually not Yale graduates with long histories of reputable employment and a complete lack of criminal records getting killed by cops.

Rushy's right guys, these people tend to be lowlifes, why should they deserve special treatment like not being killed by cops?

It's usually what leads up to the killings. I'm not saying all of them are justifiable, but generally speaking, the people getting killed by cops are getting killed because they were/are violent people who resisted arrest in some form or another and warranted an escalated response. It is incredibly rare for a killing to involve someone who has no violent past and did nothing at all to cause a lethal reaction from law enforcement. It does happen, but not at such a rate that could be considered inherent to the system and not outliers.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 10:00:15 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #198 on: June 19, 2020, 10:02:11 PM »
It's usually not Yale graduates with long histories of reputable employment and a complete lack of criminal records getting killed by cops.

Rushy's right guys, these people tend to be lowlifes, why should they deserve special treatment like not being killed by cops?

It's usually what leads up to the killings. I'm not saying all of them are justifiable, but generally speaking, the people getting killed by cops are getting killed because they were/are violent people who resisted arrest in some form or another and warranted an escalated response.

I mean, I don't know why you framed that like I was arguing, I agree with you. They should have known better than to be born in a disadvantaged position, if they were smart they would have been born to parents rich enough to send them to Yale. Those people aren't murdered by the cops when they're arrested for the crimes they commit like embezzling billions of dollars or whatnot. They get a nice cushy sentence in a country club.

But steal a pack of cigarettes and you're just asking to be murdered.

Shoulda known better.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 10:04:05 PM by Roundy »
Go kicking and screaming, lol, it all means the same on January 21st.

Before this is over I'm betting you eat those landslide words :)

Another gullible, delusional "Independent" ::)

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #199 on: June 19, 2020, 10:04:07 PM »
I mean, I don't know why you framed that like I was arguing, I agree with you. They should have known better than to be born in a disadvantaged position, if they were smart they would have been born to parents rich enough to send them to Yale. Those people aren't murdered by the cops when they're arrested for the crimes they commit like embezzling billions of dollars or whatnot. They get a nice cushy sentence in a country club.

But steal a pack of cigarettes and you're just asking to be murdered.

Ah yes, armed robbery is the same as stealing a pack of cigarettes. Here's another show-stopper: crime rates don't correlate to poverty rates. Being born poor doesn't magically make you run around pointing guns at people and demanding their money.