totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #100 on: June 10, 2020, 02:34:43 PM »
I mean that just as there is a portion of police who are clearly bad actors - and we have video evidence of it - there is a portion of the protesters who are clearly bad actors - and we also have video evidence of that.

Not relevant to the topic, though. The question was "Are the police out of control?", because the police are taxpayer-funded, should answer to the people, but are routinely mistreating the people, apparently just because they feel they can.
Tumeni, it is relevant to the topic.

The police can and must be worse actors toward those bad actors and that is the concept you are missing.

Rioters and looters start to do their thing in the neighborhood of my family and the police fail to act with appropriate physical force in order to stop it, then I will.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 02:37:05 PM by totallackey »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #101 on: June 10, 2020, 02:45:54 PM »
Rioters and looters start to do their thing in the neighborhood of my family and the police fail to act with appropriate physical force in order to stop it, then I will.

You're missing the point. They're out of control and are being casually brutal to anyone, because they think they can. That includes peaceful protestors, passers-by, and regular folks who just happen to be in the area, as well as journalists and other observers.

 
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totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #102 on: June 10, 2020, 02:50:56 PM »
Rioters and looters start to do their thing in the neighborhood of my family and the police fail to act with appropriate physical force in order to stop it, then I will.

You're missing the point. They're out of control and are being casually brutal to anyone, because they think they can. That includes peaceful protestors, passers-by, and regular folks who just happen to be in the area, as well as journalists and other observers.
And I am sure all of this well documented, including perhaps a "LEAVE THE AREA," warning issued prior to said instances of "brutality."

A vast majority of the instances are simply shitbags getting their just due.

Always has been and nothing to see here...

When you want to come up with real solutions to the issue (which you don't, cause you could honestly give two shakes about the issue), let somebody know.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #103 on: June 10, 2020, 03:13:56 PM »
And I am sure all of this well documented (LINKS ABOVE - approaching 500 cases)

A vast majority of the instances are simply shitbags getting their just due.

Hogwash.

https://imgur.com/gallery/t5pdE3Q

If you want to pick a particular instance for discussion, either from the links above or from this one, then go right ahead. But at the moment it doesn't seem like you're looking at them in any depth at all.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 03:19:45 PM by Tumeni »
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #104 on: June 10, 2020, 03:26:28 PM »
I mean that just as there is a portion of police who are clearly bad actors - and we have video evidence of it - there is a portion of the protesters who are clearly bad actors - and we also have video evidence of that.

Not relevant to the topic, though. The question was "Are the police out of control?", because the police are taxpayer-funded, should answer to the people, but are routinely mistreating the people, apparently just because they feel they can. 

The core point is that most of the instances referred to go far beyond the realm of reasonable action, when the general public are being casually brutalised and attacked, simply because the police fear no repercussions.

The journalist is on his knees, and is ordered to lie flat on his stomach by police. While in this position, he holds his press card, and announces his credentials as a number of police pass by. Most ignore him, but the last, almost casually, with no reason beyond the fact that he can, gives the journalist a squirt of pepper spray in his face. This is not legitimate crowd control, this is not reasonable force, this is plain and simple malice, just for the sake of it.

There's almost 500 examples in the links I posted above.

I totally agree with you about these cops.

But my comments are super relevant.

Reread the first post I put in this thread.

My point is that while some cops are certainly evil, we should retain policing as an institution in society because without it things break down and get worse.

 I posted evidence from Chicago of an exceptionally high murder rate in a weekend because criminals were specifically taking advantage of the fact that there were no police there to stop them because they were dealing with the riots.

My point continues to be relevant in that while we should completely condemn and put on trial any cops who do bad things, we still need to retain law enforcement as an institution in society

And I had to argue that point because it has been brought up in this thread that perhaps we should just do away with police. Terrible idea.

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #105 on: June 10, 2020, 04:24:07 PM »
The 75 year old guy doesn't go up to random strangers performing his phony, "lemme scan you," act with his cell phone. He only does this to police, specifically to gain this type of reaction.
Right. No dispute there. But "this type of reaction" isn't really acceptable from people whose pledge is "to protect and serve".
I get it, the guy is a troll, maybe he was trying to provoke a reaction, but their job is in part to deal with people like that, and not by shoving them to the ground with such force that they require hospital treatment.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #106 on: June 10, 2020, 04:42:10 PM »
Quote
Innocent old man



Yes, innocent.  It is 100% not a crime to say this.    And making it a crime to say something like this would take our institutions back more than 200 years.   

In fact, ensuring that this sort of statement is not a crime was so important to the founding fathers of America that it was the first amendment to the constitution that guarantees that it's a perfectly fine thing to do. This is middle school level civics.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #107 on: June 10, 2020, 05:43:59 PM »
Has anyone here heard of the "Stanford Prison Experiment"?

It was a study done in the 70s in which psychologists/sociologists were attempting to discover what effects "perceived power" would have on the actions of regular, good-will, people.

Basically, they took regular people and divided them into two groups: some acted as prisoners, others acted as guards. Then they assumed their role and 'acted' out a prison scenario.

It didn't take long before the "guards" became brutal and abused the prisoners.

The study was discontinued because violence quickly escalated, and laws were implemented to prevent this sort of study from happening again.

Although the study was never replicated, and did not complete, it was an eye-opener for many sociologists when trying to determine whether or not complaints of brutality were legitimate.

It was clear that giving someone a position of power was strongly correlated to an attitude of dominance. Those in positions of power were extremely likely to internalize that feeling of power, and act it out - it is important to note that "acting it out" was almost always associated with violence.

I think we see this over, and over, and over in the American executive system. Guards over-stepping their limits in prisons, police officers playing militant roles, abuse, corruption, etc.... we see this time and time again here in the states.

I am not in favor of disbanding, dismanteling, or de-funding/abolishing our police system, but I am in favor of rethinking our approach on justice, and police presents/actions. Even simply wearing a uniform creates a sense of power for some people - these are subtleties that need to be addressed.

This idea of us vs them mentally needs to be addressed.




« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 06:10:43 PM by timterroo »
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Offline honk

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #108 on: June 10, 2020, 06:18:53 PM »
Has anyone here heard of the "Stanford Prison Experiment"?



Seriously, that experiment was bad science and shouldn't be cited as anything other than an example of very bad science.
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #109 on: June 10, 2020, 06:29:44 PM »
Has anyone here heard of the "Stanford Prison Experiment"?



Seriously, that experiment was bad science and shouldn't be cited as anything other than an example of very bad science.

Ok, well have you ever been to a prison?

My personal experience with prison/jail guards is pretty much inline with the Stanford Prison Experiment. You can also see this play out in reality - heard of #metoo?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 07:32:30 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #110 on: June 11, 2020, 11:48:56 AM »
And I am sure all of this well documented (LINKS ABOVE - approaching 500 cases)

A vast majority of the instances are simply shitbags getting their just due.

Hogwash.

https://imgur.com/gallery/t5pdE3Q

If you want to pick a particular instance for discussion, either from the links above or from this one, then go right ahead. But at the moment it doesn't seem like you're looking at them in any depth at all.
There is nothing to look at in depth.

Provide some depth.

You are the OP.

So far you have provided exactly what I labeled it.

Lack of fully documented instances.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #111 on: June 11, 2020, 02:25:16 PM »
(Tumeni said  -  "If you want to pick a particular instance for discussion, either from the links above or from this one, then go right ahead. But at the moment it doesn't seem like you're looking at them in any depth at all.")

There is nothing to look at in depth. Provide some depth. You are the OP. So far you have provided exactly what I labeled it.

Lack of fully documented instances.

I'm not going to go through every last one of 450+ cases and re-write the details of them here, just to please you.

The documentation is in the civil defence lawyer's twitter threads and in the spreadsheet collating them. This is how citations of evidence work. To provide documentation on point X, the writer refers to a book dealing with point X, and summarises it. The writer does not copy/paste the whole of point X into their book or article.

I've linked you to it. Go looksee.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 05:53:40 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #112 on: June 11, 2020, 04:05:03 PM »
It's not the police-individual that is the problem. It is the police institution and union that are the problem. It's the corporate interest that is the problem.

Police institutions are backed by corporate investments - corporations that also have strong investments in prison systems and judicial law.

There are corporate interests at every level of government, writing laws, and enacting bullshit policies that help their pocket books.

Police, "law and order", brutality, and prisons are center to this and tantamount to slavery.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 04:23:14 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #113 on: June 11, 2020, 07:00:05 PM »
You have police who are told that if they rush up at someone start yelling and don't receive compliance within less than two seconds while feeling the remotest amount of fear that they are fully justified in taking a life and legally protected from repercussions of that killing.  That is an institutional and legal framework that will inevitably lead to unnecessary acts of violence.  It's pretty obvious right now that this situation is taking place in far too many places across the country.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #114 on: June 11, 2020, 10:45:41 PM »
You have police who are told that if they rush up at someone start yelling and don't receive compliance within less than two seconds while feeling the remotest amount of fear that they are fully justified in taking a life and legally protected from repercussions of that killing.  That is an institutional and legal framework that will inevitably lead to unnecessary acts of violence.  It's pretty obvious right now that this situation is taking place in far too many places across the country.

Exactly.

84-year olds who don't have a full grasp of the local lingo don't stand a chance.

"claim was filed against the NYPD and the city of New York .. alleges that officers pushed the 84-year-old against a wall, beat him and threw him to the ground, causing him to lose consciousness. Wong was hospitalized for his injuries and was bleeding from the head."

For jaywalking. For fecking jaywalking.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/jaywalking-elderly-man-assaulted-police-lawsuit-nypd/2015850/

58-year old didn't fare much better

"lawsuit alleges that the 58-year-old's constitutional rights were violated when then officer Eric Parker, who was responding to a report of a suspicious man, stopped Patel on the street, searched him for weapons, and allegedly slammed him to the ground using a leg sweep.  Police dashcam video captured the Feb. 6 incident last year. Patel, who was later handcuffed, suffered injury to his spinal cord and “immediately became paralyzed in his arms and legs,” though he has improved substantially after a long period of rehabilitation, according to his lawsuit."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/indian-man-partially-paralyzed-after-police-encounter-refiles-suit-against-n639351

What was his heinous crime? He was walking.
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Offline rooster

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #115 on: June 12, 2020, 07:27:05 PM »
I doubt that any of the critics here have actually performed police work. The police act inappropriately at times, but if you are a police officer and must assume that everyone has a gun or knife and is ready to use it on you at moment's notice, because the people you interact with fear arrest or are otherwise unstable, you can see why they behave as they do. And here is Tumeni wondering why they aren't going out of their way to help a guy laying down on the street, whether he was pushed or not.

Late to this, but nervous police officers (and racists) are exactly the problem. My dad was a cop and was scolded by his superior for not searching for a B&E suspect through a warehouse with his gun drawn. That is definitely not a scenario where you need your gun drawn unless there is clear and immediate danger. He eventually left the force because he had so many arguments with his superior, but it was for stupid shit like that.

I've also been on a ride-along with metro police. The officer I rode along with was actually pretty fantastic at putting people at ease (he was Latino fwiw). All you have to do is chat with people and keep the mood calm. But I also noticed that many of the calls we went to would have been better suited for people with more specific training such as homelessness support and domestic violence support. Cops are not trained enough or provide suitable solutions to these problems. They show up, take statements, maybe relocate an unstable homeless person, but nothing of any real use is done. Defunding the police for other more specialized support systems would be a much more effective solution to most of their daily calls.

There is just not enough police accountability and honestly, they don't really help much.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 07:31:49 PM by rooster »

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #116 on: June 13, 2020, 04:21:40 PM »
Most police officers are probably pretty sound. That's really the problem, they should all be sound. You can't deny there's something wrong going on with the recruitment when morons, racists or generally nervous people become officers.

When like in the video below you have police start threatening to shoot students outside their dorm who are very clearly just going about their business cleaning up, calling for backup with comments like "has some kind of a blunt object in his hands" which is very clearly a way for the officer to sound 'in trouble' over the radio out of context to the situation he was in(because unless the officer is an absolute moron he knew what the object was and why the student has it). While I do think this student could have handled the situation better, I still think the officer was just trying to wave his dick about trying to show his authority, the officer escalated this situation way more than needed. And on top of that it took some random old man to come along and simply say his title and the officer was like 'ok cool I believe you'.



There's so many videos of this kind of behaviour from police. It's quite clear that some officers are problematic. UK officers seem more grounded than this but I guess america is a big place.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #117 on: June 13, 2020, 04:45:24 PM »
In today's news, Atlanta police have summarily executed yet another unarmed coloured man, for the heinous crimes of A - falling asleep in his car, B - failing a "field sobriety test" and C - running away.

Shot in the back up to three times as he ran. Multiple witnesses, multiple cellphone videos from different angles

https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/13/atlanta-police-fatally-shoot-black-man-wendys/
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #118 on: June 13, 2020, 05:21:03 PM »
In today's news, Atlanta police have summarily executed yet another unarmed coloured man, for the heinous crimes of A - falling asleep in his car, B - failing a "field sobriety test" and C - running away.

Shot in the back up to three times as he ran. Multiple witnesses, multiple cellphone videos from different angles

https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/13/atlanta-police-fatally-shoot-black-man-wendys/

He shouldn't have resisted, but he also shouldn't have been shot. He didn't have a weapon, wasn't threatening the police; just trying to get away. I'm sorry the officers have to deal with the unknown in often dangerous situations, but if you can't handle a little skirmish without drawing your pistol as a first reaction, you shouldn't be exposing yourself to violent situations - I think a desk job is more right for you.

Edit:

The mentality of, "do what I say or I'll shoot you", is the problem here.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 05:22:39 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline rooster

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #119 on: June 13, 2020, 09:24:53 PM »
Bottom line is that cops should not resort to killing someone in MOST situations and they should be given the same punishments as ordinary citizens when they do unnecessarily murder/assault someone. But we have shitty cops and shitty cop unionization that gets them out of almost everything. The whole system needs to be radically readjusted.

They're straight up doing illegal shit and it needs to be treated as the crime that it is.