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Offline honk

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #120 on: June 14, 2020, 12:39:34 AM »
Sorry, I meant to reply to this, even if it is somewhat tangential:

My personal experience with prison/jail guards is pretty much inline with the Stanford Prison Experiment. You can also see this play out in reality - heard of #metoo?

The whole point of the experiment was that they weren't real guards or real prisoners, so how could your experience in a real prison back it up? I don't doubt that the guards were cruel and the prisoners were desperate, but there's nothing connecting that to the experiment's supposed conclusion of how having power turns you bad and deep down everyone is like that beyond the experiment itself. It might be true, but the experiment that supposedly proved it was bullshit. I regret only posting that comic in response to you, because it's really only the tip of the iceberg. Here's a more in-depth breakdown:

https://gen.medium.com/the-lifespan-of-a-lie-d869212b1f62

If Zimbardo had been sincere from the start, the experiment would still be worthless. But he wasn't even sincere. He was looking for attention and fame the whole time, and that's how he approached the "experiment." It has no scientific value whatsoever, and people need to stop citing it uncritically.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #121 on: June 14, 2020, 02:49:15 AM »
He shouldn't have resisted...

I don’t think this is even relevant. Resisting arrest isn’t a capital crime and unless there is a genuine threat to the life of the officers, there is no justification for killing someone resisting arrest. It shouldn’t really be brought up because it can only help to reinforce the police mindset that precedents like Graham have helped to make prevalent.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #122 on: June 14, 2020, 09:01:46 AM »
Update; it appears that the fleeing man mentioned two posts above had managed to flee with one of the officer's tasers, which sorta makes it worse. If two of them can't handle a sleepy drunk, without him disarming you, maybe they should volunteer for some retraining ...

Further issues emerge from them firing live rounds at him with queuing traffic for the drive-thru in the firing line; why they needed to chase him on foot anyway, they had his car, and (apparently) his wife in the car, so he's got nowhere to go except home, so why not pick him up there later?
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #123 on: June 14, 2020, 10:13:55 AM »
In the midst of a peaceful walk, police officer engineers a scenario where a protester walks into him, and uses this as an excuse for half a dozen others to leap on him and wrestle him to the ground.... and eyewitnesses say "they kneeled on his neck"

https://imgur.com/gallery/L9Hijyi

Honestly, it's as though they just want to rub their power trip into the world's face.... "Think Floyd was bad? Just look at what we can do next ...."

and ...

https://imgur.com/gallery/kdusmpd
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 10:54:01 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2020, 02:57:00 PM »
Fox News just using Minneapolis photos in an article about Seattle and photoshopping armed guards in to photos where none exist... nothing to see here.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/13/media/seattle-fox-news-autonomous-zone-protest/index.html
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2020, 04:56:30 PM »
Quite a night in Atlanta;

Driver is spotted sleeping in his car in the queue for a Wendy's drive-thru
Police are called
Driver is woken, taken out of his car and given "field sobriety test", which it seems he failed
A struggle ensues, and despite there being two police vehicles and at least two officers, the drunk person manages to evade all officers, and makes off with one of their tasers
They chase on foot, and one officer shoots the victim at least three times, causing his death

In the aftermath;

The officer who fatally shot him has been fired, second officer involved has been placed on administrative duty
The local police chief has resigned
The drive-thru has been set alight, and is now a burnt-out shell.

Is there a lesson here for the local police?
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #126 on: June 14, 2020, 05:58:01 PM »
Is there a lesson here for the local police?
Yes, don't give a drunken guy your taser then shoot to kill him as he runs away. I mean for starters how tf does a drunken guy get hold of an officers weapon and why was his first instinct to shoot guy a few times for running in the opposite direction? They had all the information they needed to apprehend him eventually without a need to even chase him let alone kill him. The problem is the officer was stressed from losing control of the situation, he absolutely did not need to use his gun and even then fuck, shoot the guy in the legs?
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Offline honk

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #127 on: June 14, 2020, 06:27:53 PM »
Deliberately shooting someone in the legs, or any limbs at all, is very difficult and not a thing that police are ever trained to do. A gun is a lethal weapon and shouldn't be fired unless you're prepared to kill.
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #128 on: June 14, 2020, 07:37:45 PM »
Deliberately shooting someone in the legs, or any limbs at all, is very difficult and not a thing that police are ever trained to do. A gun is a lethal weapon and shouldn't be fired unless you're prepared to kill.
While I've never shot a moving target (with a real gun) I wouldn't have thought it to be difficult but I suppose in the moment it's a quick reaction and the officer would aim to hit regardless of where on the target, so I guess it's not a plausible solution. Though I would still question that officers reasons for pulling a gun on a person running away regardless.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #129 on: June 15, 2020, 02:50:02 AM »
Are the police out of control?  There are some 18,000 police agencies in the USA employing some 1,100,000 officers.  Those 1 million officers would collectively work some 2 Billion hours a year.  I suppose a better question might be what would be a reasonable expectation of a performance that would be expected from a workforce of composed of human beings over 2 billion hours of work?  Another way to look at it would be how many poor decisions-bad days etc. might you have in a 1 million year career as a police officer while being continually recorded by video cameras!
This is the verdict, the population of the united states doesn't have the right to a level of police conduct that exceeds a human beings ability to deliver it.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #130 on: June 15, 2020, 04:39:15 AM »
Sorry, I meant to reply to this, even if it is somewhat tangential:

My personal experience with prison/jail guards is pretty much inline with the Stanford Prison Experiment. You can also see this play out in reality - heard of #metoo?

The whole point of the experiment was that they weren't real guards or real prisoners, so how could your experience in a real prison back it up? I don't doubt that the guards were cruel and the prisoners were desperate, but there's nothing connecting that to the experiment's supposed conclusion of how having power turns you bad and deep down everyone is like that beyond the experiment itself. It might be true, but the experiment that supposedly proved it was bullshit. I regret only posting that comic in response to you, because it's really only the tip of the iceberg. Here's a more in-depth breakdown:

https://gen.medium.com/the-lifespan-of-a-lie-d869212b1f62

If Zimbardo had been sincere from the start, the experiment would still be worthless. But he wasn't even sincere. He was looking for attention and fame the whole time, and that's how he approached the "experiment." It has no scientific value whatsoever, and people need to stop citing it uncritically.

Thank you for the article, I want to read it all, and I will when I have more time. I did want to at least respond by saying I do understand that this experiment was not good science, and you're right, it really can't be used for any good defense. Regardless I do feel, in some ways, that power corrupts people, and it is easy for people with power to abuse it. Anecdotally as it may be, I don't think I feel this way due to the zimbardo experiment. I think it's more likely I feel this way due to the societal class with which I associate, and my personal experiences.
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #131 on: June 15, 2020, 04:48:23 AM »
He shouldn't have resisted...

I don’t think this is even relevant. Resisting arrest isn’t a capital crime and unless there is a genuine threat to the life of the officers, there is no justification for killing someone resisting arrest. It shouldn’t really be brought up because it can only help to reinforce the police mindset that precedents like Graham have helped to make prevalent.

I didn't say any of this was justified period, let alone because he was "resisting". Please don't think that I meant otherwise. I was simply saying there wasn't any reason to resist - why do it? Perhaps I don't understand because I'm a privileged white guy. I don't know what someone goes through who is constantly profiled, and worse - American media makes black people out to be violent criminals. It's really messed up.

Resisting or not, the fact that the officer shot him in the back completely nullifies any defense for the x-officer. There was absolutely no cause for that.

Edit:

hmmmmm.... And it suddenly becomes clear why you say it isn't relevant.... I get it...
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 04:54:59 AM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #132 on: June 15, 2020, 09:24:26 AM »
I was simply saying there wasn't any reason to resist - why do it?

.. because, as we have seen over the last few weeks, there's a very real possibility that the victim will be physically harmed in the process of being taken into custody, and a real possibility they may die in the process.

Survival instinct leads the victim to try and escape this.

Nobody, especially the coloured and ethnic population, wants to go with the police willingly, because, as my title suggests, the police are out of control. The more the victim tries to get away, the more hyped-up and adrenalin-fuelled the officers become, until they snap, and lose their self-control, along with clear sight of what their purpose was in the first place.

They'll shoot someone for "resisting arrest" even when they haven't told the victim that they're under arrest in the first place. How can you be "resisting arrest" when all that's happened is that an officer has grabbed you by the arm, and tried to twist it?
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #133 on: June 15, 2020, 11:52:26 AM »
In response to the whole Atlanta issue, the shooting was justified.

Period.

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Offline honk

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #134 on: June 15, 2020, 01:06:00 PM »
Wow, what a compelling argument. I'm convinced!
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totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #135 on: June 15, 2020, 01:15:03 PM »
Wow, what a compelling argument. I'm convinced!
When you take control of a lethal weapon from law enforcement, the use of deadly force is authorized.

And it should be.

I know there are like-minded criminally inclined thinkers who wish to sympathize with the poor shitbags who think they can just be non-cooperative with legitimate inquiries from the police during calls, but these asshats are still few and far between and will be dealt with appropriately.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #136 on: June 15, 2020, 02:28:36 PM »
When you take control of a lethal weapon from law enforcement, the use of deadly force is authorized.

If properly used, a taser is not a lethal weapon. The police routinely use it as, and call it, non-lethal. A misused one is a different matter.

Besides which, there's no indication that the victim showed intent to use it against anyone, UNTIL HE WAS PURSUED ON FOOT BY THE POLICE. He then appeared to use it to aid his escape by firingit while running and turning back toward them, but clearly missed.

New York Times

"“During the chase, Mr. Brooks turned and pointed the Taser at the officer,” the bureau said, adding that “the officer fired his weapon, striking Brooks.”

Mr. Brooks was taken to a hospital, where he died after surgery, the authorities said. One officer was treated at a hospital for an injury and was later released.

L. Chris Stewart, a lawyer who was hired by the Brooks family, said repeatedly at a news conference Saturday night that a Taser was not considered a deadly weapon, and that there was no justification for the police to shoot Mr. Brooks just because he had one in his hands.

He also said that the police could have instead cornered Mr. Brooks and arrested him, instead of chasing him and shooting him. “His life was not in immediate harm when he fired that shot,” Mr. Stewart said of the officer.

He said the officers put on plastic gloves and picked up shell casings before rendering first aid to Mr. Brooks, and also did not check his pulse for more than two minutes after he was shot."


Per the last sentence, it's this kind of callous indifference to the victims that makes the case against the police. They really don't give a damn for the people they're supposed to serve. "He's been shot, we'll just let him bleed out and not bother to help him now" ....
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 02:37:32 PM by Tumeni »
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #137 on: June 15, 2020, 02:48:44 PM »
When you take control of a lethal weapon from law enforcement, the use of deadly force is authorized.

If properly used, a taser is not a lethal weapon. The police routinely use it as, and call it, non-lethal. A misused one is a different matter.
That is correct.

Misuse of taser in the hands of a suspect, who could then use it against police or other bystanders.
Besides which, there's no indication that the victim showed intent to use it against anyone, UNTIL HE WAS PURSUED ON FOOT BY THE POLICE.

BWAHAHAHA!!!!

Larry David is now writing for the defense!!!
He then appeared to use it to aid his escape by firingit while running and turning back toward them, but clearly missed.

New York Times

"“During the chase, Mr. Brooks turned and pointed the Taser at the officer,” the bureau said, adding that “the officer fired his weapon, striking Brooks.”

Mr. Brooks was taken to a hospital, where he died after surgery, the authorities said. One officer was treated at a hospital for an injury and was later released.

L. Chris Stewart, a lawyer who was hired by the Brooks family, said repeatedly at a news conference Saturday night that a Taser was not considered a deadly weapon, and that there was no justification for the police to shoot Mr. Brooks just because he had one in his hands.

He also said that the police could have instead cornered Mr. Brooks and arrested him, instead of chasing him and shooting him. “His life was not in immediate harm when he fired that shot,” Mr. Stewart said of the officer.

He said the officers put on plastic gloves and picked up shell casings before rendering first aid to Mr. Brooks, and also did not check his pulse for more than two minutes after he was shot."


Per the last sentence, it's this kind of callous indifference to the victims that makes the case against the police. They really don't give a damn for the people they're supposed to serve. "He's been shot, we'll just let him bleed out and not bother to help him now" ....
"The police could have done this...or the police could have done that..."

All uttered by apologists who have zero clue about police.

Bottom line.

Guy doesn't block a Wendy's drive thru lane...no cops...guy cooperates with police when they do arrive....goes home safe and sound.

Stop justifying the actions of these asshats...

Police do not serve known shitbags.

They stop them, as they're supposed to do.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #138 on: June 15, 2020, 02:58:53 PM »
Misuse of taser in the hands of a suspect, who could then use it against police or other bystanders.

Nonsense, there's no indication of any intended or likely use against bystanders. The victim was being questioned because he was ASLEEP IN HIS CAR, not because he had shown ANY malicious intent AT ALL, toward ANYONE.

In any civilised country, the operators of the drive-thru, or other customers, would have knocked on his window to wake him up. It's not really a matter for the police, is it?

Police do not serve known shitbags.

Why has he suddenly become "known" as a "shitbag", other than you wanting to call him names?
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totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #139 on: June 15, 2020, 03:04:40 PM »
Misuse of taser in the hands of a suspect, who could then use it against police or other bystanders.

Nonsense, there's no indication of any intended or likely use against bystanders.
Nonsense, taking a taser from a police officer is misuse and pointing it at the police is just stupid.

Darwin at work!
In any civilised country, the operators of the drive-thru, or other customers, would have knocked on his window to wake him up. It's not really a matter for the police, is it?
Police get called, then they have an obligation to respond.

The US is a civilised country.

It is shitbags trying to make it uncivilized...that's our current problem.

Don't worry though...we will get them.
Police do not serve known shitbags.

Why has he suddenly become "known" as a "shitbag", other than you wanting to call him names?
Shitbags do what shitbags do.

Taking a taser from a police officer is a shitbag thing to do.

That makes him a shitbag.

Fortunately, a dead shitbag.