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Online Tumeni

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Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2020, 11:57:12 AM »
I read some of the threads and I think y’all take this “prove it” thing too far. For example, I have never actually been to Europe, therefor I don’t know it actually exists. If you showed me pictures of it ....

I concur. This is observed a lot on YouTube, where globe sceptics routinely respond with "Have you verified this PERSONALLY" or in similar terms, but it's just cherry-picking one thing in life to hang the question on.

If the sceptic truly wants to "question everything" (another line which appears frequently) then they would never get anything done in their day, for they'd never get beyond questioning their breakfast, and anything which preceded it.
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2020, 03:59:28 PM »
I read some of the threads and I think y’all take this “prove it” thing too far. For example, I have never actually been to Europe, therefor I don’t know it actually exists. If you showed me pictures of it ....

I concur. This is observed a lot on YouTube, where globe sceptics routinely respond with "Have you verified this PERSONALLY" or in similar terms, but it's just cherry-picking one thing in life to hang the question on.

If the sceptic truly wants to "question everything" (another line which appears frequently) then they would never get anything done in their day, for they'd never get beyond questioning their breakfast, and anything which preceded it.

It definitely happens. I feel like it happens a lot less here than places like the other FE forum where they demanded an uncut 14 hour video documenting the entire southern hemisphere flight.

Even if i did have an uncut 14 hour video he could easily say that it was edited or fake or demand proof that it was real.


Many of the links refer to comments by Tom Bishop who is unable to back up his comments with facts or explanations on eg. how GPS works, how to make a map etc.

If you read through the tread he had provided sources/evidence for many of his claims. Some of the other claims he provided sources/evidence in different threads that i'm too lazy to dig through to find.

I believe there were a few of his claims which didn't have evidence/sources provided.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 08:23:28 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2020, 09:43:57 PM »
That’s fine, I’m too lazy to fly for 14 hours to prove my point.

What Tom did was flatten out a non Euclidean triangle, and then proved a flat triangle has 180 degrees. In reality, the triangle between 3 cities, if you can call it that, is a non-Euclidean shape, and the sides are not lines but arc lengths with a 3 dimensional vector, so you can’t just plug that into a triangle angle calculator online. You need to find the vectors for each arc at the ends and find the angles that way. I could do that and take a picture of the math, but alas, laziness. I will if you ask.

I think you have the right idea, but it’s not fully explored, iamcpc.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2020, 04:39:37 PM »
That’s fine, I’m too lazy to fly for 14 hours to prove my point.

What Tom did was flatten out a non Euclidean triangle, and then proved a flat triangle has 180 degrees. In reality, the triangle between 3 cities, if you can call it that, is a non-Euclidean shape, and the sides are not lines but arc lengths with a 3 dimensional vector, so you can’t just plug that into a triangle angle calculator online. You need to find the vectors for each arc at the ends and find the angles that way. I could do that and take a picture of the math, but alas, laziness. I will if you ask.

I think you have the right idea, but it’s not fully explored, iamcpc.

As you investigate these you will find that there are many different FE models. A flat disk FE model with a great ice wall and a north pole center is significantly weakened by measured and known flight times, measured and known flight paths, measured and known travel times/paths and measured and known shipping times/paths. Also I believe this specific flat disk model really struggles with the phases of the moon. I am of the opinion than there are FE models which are significantly more accurate.

Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2020, 06:55:43 PM »
That’s fine, I’m too lazy to fly for 14 hours to prove my point.

What Tom did was flatten out a non Euclidean triangle, and then proved a flat triangle has 180 degrees. In reality, the triangle between 3 cities, if you can call it that, is a non-Euclidean shape, and the sides are not lines but arc lengths with a 3 dimensional vector, so you can’t just plug that into a triangle angle calculator online. You need to find the vectors for each arc at the ends and find the angles that way. I could do that and take a picture of the math, but alas, laziness. I will if you ask.

I think you have the right idea, but it’s not fully explored, iamcpc.

As you investigate these you will find that there are many different FE models. A flat disk FE model with a great ice wall and a north pole center is significantly weakened by measured and known flight times, measured and known flight paths, measured and known travel times/paths and measured and known shipping times/paths. Also I believe this specific flat disk model really struggles with the phases of the moon. I am of the opinion than there are FE models which are significantly more accurate.
So which FE model is the one we should consider? You mention that there are some that are significantly more accurate, can you tell us about those?

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2020, 07:29:17 PM »
Last I checked he believes that the bing map (a globe projection with extreme distortion at the poles) is the true flat map. Standing at the south or North Pole would then make you as wide as the globe so I wouldn’t consider that an accurate flat earth map.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2020, 08:22:28 PM »
I read some of the threads and I think y’all take this “prove it” thing too far. For example, I have never actually been to Europe, therefor I don’t know it actually exists. If you showed me pictures of it ....

If the sceptic truly wants to "question everything" (another line which appears frequently) then they would never get anything done in their day, for they'd never get beyond questioning their breakfast, and anything which preceded it.

Spot on. Technically FEs aren't "sceptics" but "Pyrrhonists", that is they doubt literally everything and reach a methodological "suspension of judgement". One can see that from the fact that FEs accept different contradictory, and sometimes unprovable, statements at the same time, without questioning them and without sharing values but only few things they believe false. That's the reason the FE community is basically a divided one. In Philosophy being a Pyrrhonist poses many (unresolved) difficulties, not last the problem that if you cannot believe in anything you couldn't even be Pyrrhonist in the first place. So, in general, being Pyrrhonist is not a great achievement, being it a relatively easy and safe, but questionable, play. Back to the plane ticket problem, it extends to a whole running global society where nationally independent businesses run without exploiting the real flat geometry of the planet and losing so much money, because you know, the NASA conspiracy from the sixties..

Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2020, 10:08:39 PM »
because you know, the NASA conspiracy from the sixties..

Ya... I think this has had a larger than necessary influence on FErs becoming FErs, but that's anecdotal.


A flat disk FE model with a great ice wall and a north pole center is significantly weakened by measured and known flight times

Significantly weakened… You mean proven incorrect? If there is a single discrepancy with a theory in science, then the theory is wrong. This is why we know general relativity, string theory, etc. are all incorrect because they only work in a certain scale or explain only one part of reality but not another. All the theories for physics have at least one discrepancy, sort of like how all of the maps for a flat earth will always have at least one discrepancy with measuring distances alone. If you fixed the discrepancy I put in the original post with a new map, then I will find a new discrepancy with the new map.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2020, 11:02:05 PM »
Significantly weakened… You mean proven incorrect?

One thing that you have to understand is that PROOF is impossible. To me PROOF means 0% chance of error.
You could say here this picture of the blue sky is PROOF the sky is blue.
But there is a very small chance that there is a flaw with the camera
There is small chance there could be a flaw in the evolution of our optical cortex/retina which makes our brain turn the incorrect color blue.
The photo could be photo shopped
Someone could have dumped a big cloud of blue dye/dust in the sky just before the picture was taken
Sometimes the sky is red and orange.

So it's no PROOF. It's evidence.


If there is a single discrepancy with a theory in science, then the theory is wrong.

Unless you are talking about quantum mechanics then there are different interpretations.

all of the maps for a flat earth will always have at least one discrepancy with measuring distances alone. If you fixed the discrepancy I put in the original post with a new map, then I will find a new discrepancy with the new map.

https://www.bing.com/maps represents the earth as a flat plane and has an interactive scale and I believe is an accurate map which supports the distances and measurements corroborated by measured flight/shipping/travel distances and times and is also supported by modern cartography.

Unfortunately no one from the FE community, except for me,  would ever even CONSIDER accepting a model like this.

Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2020, 02:11:21 PM »
Significantly weakened… You mean proven incorrect?

One thing that you have to understand is that PROOF is impossible. To me PROOF means 0% chance of error.
You could say here this picture of the blue sky is PROOF the sky is blue.
But there is a very small chance that there is a flaw with the camera
There is small chance there could be a flaw in the evolution of our optical cortex/retina which makes our brain turn the incorrect color blue.
The photo could be photo shopped
Someone could have dumped a big cloud of blue dye/dust in the sky just before the picture was taken
Sometimes the sky is red and orange.

So it's no PROOF. It's evidence.

At the same time, outside the mathematical world, there do not exist 100% precise statements. The earth is round is just a hugely rough approximation of its shape. The same for a flat earth. The same for train schedules, the same for everything. But often evidence roughly excludes other possibilities, so that the freedom to be in some way is very much limited too.
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2020, 05:33:19 PM »
There’s a lot of wiggle room in the science world as far as different theories, etc. but some things are not up for debate. Some examples include things that are practiced everyday: Kirchhoffs’ laws, Newtonian physics, etc. you can debate the nuance, but on a practical level, we have things pretty well figured out. The earth is round is on the same level of general acceptance.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2020, 05:45:35 PM »
There’s a lot of wiggle room in the science world as far as different theories, etc. but some things are not up for debate. Some examples include things that are practiced everyday: Kirchhoffs’ laws, Newtonian physics, etc.

If you believe in literal interpretations of literally dozens and dozens of verses in the bible Newtonian physics are definitely up for debate. As a matter of fact the world we live in went against almost all of Newtonian physics on, what appears to be, a fairly regular basis.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 05:32:22 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2020, 06:24:35 PM »
On a practiacal basis, Newtonian physics works. It’s like the universal back of the envelope theory for engineers. I’ll put it this way: there is a specific way things work, which we are not sure about at this time. Then there are several ways we can describe the way things work. These descriptions manifest in the form of “laws” or just theories. In the study of thermodynamics for example, there are sometimes dozens of different ways to approximate a result all yielding different predictions. You often times have to specify what equation you use when presenting an approximation in your work and a brief explanation why you’d use that one.

All I’m saying is we have a good handle on how things work in reality because of experimentation, but we dont know for sure why it works the way it does. Also, just because the Bible says the earth is flat doesn’t mean it is. It’s just another theory that we need to test. I’ve been on the forum long enough to see that people’s faith is preceding their opinion of the results of their “tests”.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2020, 05:40:21 PM »
All I’m saying is we have a good handle on how things work in reality because of experimentation, but we dont know for sure why it works the way it does. Also, just because the Bible says the earth is flat doesn’t mean it is. It’s just another theory that we need to test.

I agree. And Just because the Bible said that it's God's holy ruling that a person should be murdered for doing chores on Saturday does mean it is.
Just because the Bible said that all of the laws of physics were broken does not mean that it really happened.
etc.
etc.



All the testing in the world tells us the sun and moon, since the arrival of humans, have not stopped moving across the sky.
All the testing in the world tells us that there was no great flood which covered mount Everest:



The volume of a sphere is easy to calculate: V = 4/3πr³
The earth has a radius of 3959 miles. Now we need to know the radius of the flood. That’s the earth radius, plus the height of Everest, plus 15 cubits (22ft). So 3959 miles + 29,028 ft +22 feet = 3959 miles + 29050 feet = 3959 miles + 5.5018939 miles = 3964.5018939 miles
If we plug those two radii in to our volume formula, we get the volumes:
259,923,241,564 miles³ for the volume of the earth.
261,008,408,332 miles³ for the volume of the earth at flood.
So, if we subtract the earth volume from the flood volume, we’ll get the volume of water required to fill that space. That’s how much it would need to rain. That turns out to be 1,085,166,768 miles³of rain.
Now, let’s cut that by 25% because land, mountains, etc. occupy some of that volume. All that space would not be filled with water. The 25% figure is generous since oceans, which by definition sit at sea level, cover 70% of the earth and the rest of the earth isn’t nearly as high as Everest. But let’s grant the creationist this small charity.
That means that there had to be 813,875,076 miles³ of rain for the biblical flood. To put that in perspective, the oceans have about 321,000,000 miles³ of water. All the water on earth only adds up to about 332,500,000 miles³.
So for the biblical flood to have happened, the water on earth had to miraculously multiply by about 250%.


« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 05:52:14 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2020, 01:24:59 AM »
Got a flat earth version of that math?

I didn’t say I believed the flood really happened. In fact, I don’t because I’m still struggling with how there’s kangaroos on only one continent. I’m just trying to play in your field but you seem to be playing a different sport, are you even a flat earther, iamcpc?


I’ve still yet to see a map that works. The bing map has discrepancies. The only time you wouldn’t have a discrepancy is if you picked two cities on the equator with the bing map. The bing map will tell you the actual distance, but if you use the provided scale, the two distances are different.

We could look at the map with the two poles if you’d like iamcpc.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2020, 01:49:52 AM »
Got a flat earth version of that math?

unfortunately no because on the FE models there is no accepted map of the earth and a dozen different models.

I didn’t say I believed the flood really happened. In fact, I don’t because I’m still struggling with how there’s kangaroos on only one continent. I’m just trying to play in your field but you seem to be playing a different sport, are you even a flat earther, iamcpc?

Do I believe 100% that the earth is not a sphere/oblate spheroid/spheroid? NO.
Do I believe 100% that the earth is a sphere/oblate spheroid/spheroid? NO.

Do i believe that there is evidence which supports the idea that the earth is  not a sphere/oblate spheroid/spheroid? YES.
Do I believe that there is evidence which debunks claims that observations/measurements mean the earth is a sphere/oblate spheroid/spheroid? YES
Do I believe that there are convincing logical arguments which explain why the earth can be flat and we can have the observations/measurements made? YES


I think there are far too many unanswered questions in the various FE models for me to be 100% convinced that the earth is not a sphere/oblate spheroid/spheroid.  There are way too many models with too little consistency within the community which significantly weakens the movement.




I’ve still yet to see a map that works. The bing map has discrepancies. The only time you wouldn’t have a discrepancy is if you picked two cities on the equator with the bing map. The bing map will tell you the actual distance, but if you use the provided scale, the two distances are different.
Bing maps does not have discrepancies because it has an interactive scale

We could look at the map with the two poles if you’d like iamcpc.

Bing maps has two poles.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2020, 03:33:25 PM »
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Bing maps does not have discrepancies because it has an interactive scale
Don't really want to revisit this discussion because zooming in and out on a picture of a map doesn't change the fact that it's massively distorted 'flat earth' map.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2020, 05:39:11 PM »
Don't really want to revisit this discussion

If you don't want to revist this discussion then why did you revisit this discussion?

because zooming in and out

You can change the scale without zooming in and out.

on a picture of a map doesn't change the fact that it's massively distorted 'flat earth' map.

Bing maps is the least distorted maps. Have you ever used bing maps to navigate?




lets just say that I want to make a 2d representation of a 3d place. One scale is not sufficient.


I'm going to make a 2d "map" of a hallway with three children. Each child is three feet tall. here is the "map":



By your logic this "map" is massively distorted because the child in the back, who is three feet tall, is much smaller than the child who is in the front. they should all be the exact same size.

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Offline RoundLurker

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Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2020, 01:41:40 PM »
Don't really want to revisit this discussion

If you don't want to revist this discussion then why did you revisit this discussion?

because zooming in and out

You can change the scale without zooming in and out.

on a picture of a map doesn't change the fact that it's massively distorted 'flat earth' map.

Bing maps is the least distorted maps. Have you ever used bing maps to navigate?




lets just say that I want to make a 2d representation of a 3d place. One scale is not sufficient.


I'm going to make a 2d "map" of a hallway with three children. Each child is three feet tall. here is the "map":



By your logic this "map" is massively distorted because the child in the back, who is three feet tall, is much smaller than the child who is in the front. they should all be the exact same size.

Does Bing maps use different scales, all at the same time? 
The person in my avatar does not exist, and that's unsettling.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Are plane tickets real?
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2020, 03:21:49 PM »
Quote
If you don't want to revist this discussion then why did you revisit this discussion?
Because you were bringing it up and you're most certainly wrong. if you could take a photo of the earth in its entirety from space, if it were flat, from a long distance with a decent telescope of some kind so there isn't much perspective, what would it look like? if the answer you're going to give is the bing map then you're simply wrong. On the bing map (if it were reality and not a projection of a globe) if you stand at the poles your body stretches across the entire width of the world... because the poles on the bing maps are stretched out to fit a the rectangle. stop with all the "interactive zooming" stuff for a moment and answer the question.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?