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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2019, 03:01:32 PM »
The EU doesn't restrict your or my freedoms - it restricts the freedoms of MPs

Again, UK governments are already doing that. If anything, the EU has at least imposed some means of redistribution. If the government had its way, all of the UK's wealth would get sucked into London/Panama. The EU forces them into spreading it at least a little bit. Perhaps if we had more trustworthy governments (n.b. I'm not just talking about Tories here, Labour were not better), I'd be more willing to accept that giving them more power is a good idea.

If the British don't like a government, they can vote them out. If we hate Boris, we can get rid of him. You can't vote out Verhofstadt, Tusk and Shultz. 


As for 'The EU protects you from your own government' that's the most ridiculous thing you have said so far. The EU wants to usurp London as a financial capital. They want to introduce all kinds of laws making London uncompetitive with the long term goal being to move the Financial Capital to Frankfurt. They want to take our wealth.

Europeans are not our friends. They are our rivals. They have been for thousands of years. They'll happily kill us over money. You think the smiling Nazis and polite Normans want us to be happy and wealthy? That we should trust the friendly Vikings, welcome the joyous Romans, open up our waters to Spanish fishing Armadas and our markets to Dutch East India Companies?

They are Europeans. They fucking hate us, and the only way we have ever been able to stop them coming here and taking everything we own is by being the biggest, nastiest, most frightening superpower on earth. Nothing else works. They haven't all just changed. It is so naive to think Europeans have our best interests at heart. They don't. And we should keep them at arms length as we always have done ... or better yet, at a swords length.

You don't let down your guard and give your enemies the keys to your kingdom. They'll ruin you.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2019, 03:10:41 PM »
If the British don't like a government, they can vote them out. If we hate Boris, we can get rid of him. You can't vote out Verhofstadt, Tusk and Shultz.
Neither of us can vote Boris out - you can vote May out, and you already pointed out how unlikely that is in reality. And neither of us voted Boris in. We elected a Parliament, and a government was formed within it (and then it collapsed, and a new government formed - no election needed!). A Tory vote means you can get BoJo, May, Cameron, Rees-Mogg, Letwin, Rory Stewart, or god-knows-who. The same vote can lead to drastically different outcomes. The same applies to the EU - we elect MEPs and national governments, they select the "benevolent overlords".

In my opinion, this is a terrible state of affairs on both fronts. I just don't see how UK politics is preferable. We get shafted either way.

The EU wants to usurp London as a financial capital. They want to introduce all kinds of laws making London uncompetitive with the long term goal being to move the Financial Capital to Frankfurt. They want to take our wealth.
Could you point me towards some of these bad laws? I've heard this claim before, but I wasn't able to get much detail.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2019, 03:28:30 PM »
You are basically saying "Look Englishman, you should trust the French and Germans."

And I'm saying "Erm, they aren't usually nice to us. I'd rather not, if that's ok".

And you are saying "But they've changed and you are being mean not letting them be in charge of you"

And I'm saying "Being Polish, can you honestly say putting your faith in Germans is historically a good idea?"

And you are saying "But I need you to let the Germans rule you, so that I can work here as a foreigner"

And I'm saying "You're not really my biggest concern here. You can go live anywhere under German-Franco rule if you please. But its not for me".



... I think remainers are naive. I think they forget the lessons of history. Soon the EU wants an EU army, to control our troops, ever closer integration, to eventually control our money and make us use the Euro, our tax affairs, our trade, our economy. They want to run it all. And the more we give, the harder it is to ever reverse as they have all the power. If it goes to shit, there will be no way out.
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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2019, 03:36:58 PM »
You are basically saying "Look Englishman, you should trust the French and Germans."
No, that's not my intention. Personally, I see no reason to trust the French, Germans, the English, or the politicians of the mythical Svarriorland. I'm also not trying to convince you to change your mind, because I don't even think you're wrong.

And you are saying "But they've changed and you are being mean not letting them be in charge of you"
The UK's membership in the EU doesn't affect my right to work or live here in any way. You're trying to imply a vested interest, and you're completely mistaken about that. In addition to that, I don't think getting personal will help this discussion. It's been very civil until now - please let's try to keep it that way?

... I think remainers are naive. I think they forget the lessons of history. Soon the EU wants an EU army, to control our troops, ever closer integration, to eventually control our money and make us use the Euro, our tax affairs, our trade, our economy. They want to run it all. And the more we give, the harder it is to ever reverse as they have all the power. If it goes to shit, there will be no way out.
Perhaps. But do you think going our own way would make them any less powerful or scary? They're gonna be our biggest neighbour either way.

Finally, I'd like to repeat my request for you to show me some of those laws designed to make the UK uncompetitive. I really struggle to get an answer on that one from Brexit supporters, and having a few examples would really help.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 03:47:06 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2019, 04:36:46 PM »
Wow. OK, there's a lot here but a few thoughts...

If you are a hardcore remoaner, you'll go with the lying ilLiberal unDemocrats.

One of my Remainer friends is planning to do just that.
Personally, I won't because although I'm a Remainer I don't agree with the Lib Dems' policy of revoking Article 50. The referendum result was what it was and no government should just ignore that. Legally they can - referendums are advisory - but there would be riots and it would lead to further disillusionment with our system.

So we fuck up every other election from now until we die until they deliver the thing we voted for in 2016. I'll vote UKIP, Brexit party, Monster raving looney party, independent, whatever is tactical and hurts the main parties the most until Brexit is done. In local elections, European elections, general elections, referendums ...

But you're not hurting the main parties, are you? Because none of those tiny parties are going to get any MPs, or not enough to make a difference. One of the main parties is still going to form a government and you'll have had no say in which.

That would pretty much be the BSOD for our democracy. I think at that point the head of the armed forces needs to march into Westminster and give our democracy a hard reset. I think back to 1653 the last time Parliament started doing whatever it wanted

Ah, the old "another referendum would be undemocratic" argument.
Just have a think about what you're saying. Another vote would be undemocratic.
Where in the democracy rulebook does it say that once a vote is taken the result stands for all time? You know it doesn't say that because you say elsewhere:

And once every 5 years they vote and place sovereignty in the hands of representatives to run the country for them.

Exactly. You don't just have an election and that party stays in power for perpetuity.
Public mood can change, so you have regular elections to reflect that.
Now, a fairly reasonable argument against what I've just said is that when the result of an election is known you don't immediately have another vote to check, the winning party forms a government. But the problem here is the length of time between the Referendum and the delivery of its outcome. A lot has happened in those 3 years, a lot more is known about the potential deal we might get with the EU. There are indications that we might well get a different result now. Is a narrow majority of a one off snapshot of public opinion 3 years ago really a sound basis for taking a long term course of action?
Before the referendum Farage said that a 52/48 split to Remain would be "unfinished business". That was the result to Leave and now it's "You lost, get over it".

However, parliament has decided to ignore what the very people who placed them there want them to do.

Except they haven't, have they? It's pretty much all they've been working on.
They triggered Article 50, they've been working on what our future relationship with the EU looks like. They even got an agreement with the EU about that despite all our red lines, and theirs, which seemed almost impossible to reconcile.
The problem is there is no concensus either in parliament - or amongst the population - about what Brexit looks like. The referendum wasn't voting for anything, it was voting against something. The analogy I always use is it was like voting to move house with no plan about where to move to. I'm guessing you want a hard Brexit. But the last poll I saw suggested that about two thirds of Leavers want that, about a third of people in total.
What Leave meant in detail was not articulated at the time of the referendum.

The only way I see out of this mess is another in/out referendum and a second question about if out is to win do you want No Deal or Boris's Deal (or whatever mess Corbyn comes up with, if he's elected, which he won't be).

Then just bloody get on with it.
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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2019, 02:19:19 PM »
This "Thork" seems to know things and have many insights. If Boris Johnson loses power in the Brexit movement, it could create a vacuum that would allow him to rise to power. It could be a dangerous situation.

To an outsider, the architecture of the EU seemed flawed in a lot of fundamental ways. Not just for the (valid) sovereignty concerns or the cross contamination of cultural cooties, but sharing currency between such radically different economies was looking for trouble. It's like a bunch of people sharing one credit card.

Still, I do some business with the UK and it's already a hassle dealing with tariffs and customs and all the usual BS. If the hardcore crash out Brexit occurs, I have no idea how I'm supposed to handle it.

If Thork rises to power, perhaps he will grant the TFES community special import export rights.
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...


I just wanted to make a census now the only data i have is "your mom"

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2019, 08:59:01 PM »
The video below is historian David Starky talking about Brexit and the election we just had.

It is a lengthy video, but I'm sharing because I feel it is that good.

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2019, 11:35:04 PM »
Ha. He lost me at "wisdom of crowds".
Just because a lot of stupid people think the same way, that doesn't make it wise.
And yes, yes, not everyone who voted to Brexit is an idiot just like not everyone who voted to Remain is a clever clogs.
But look at the things which are popular. That video is from The Sun, one of the most popular papers in the UK.
Look at the TV Shows which are popular (Mrs Brown's Boys, anyone?!).
That doesn't shout to me that we have a well educated population who make careful decisions about how they vote on things based on extensive research into the matter at hand.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2019, 12:05:31 AM »
Ha. He lost me at "wisdom of crowds".
Just because a lot of stupid people think the same way, that doesn't make it wise.
And yes, yes, not everyone who voted to Brexit is an idiot just like not everyone who voted to Remain is a clever clogs.
But look at the things which are popular. That video is from The Sun, one of the most popular papers in the UK.
Look at the TV Shows which are popular (Mrs Brown's Boys, anyone?!).
That doesn't shout to me that we have a well educated population who make careful decisions about how they vote on things based on extensive research into the matter at hand.

He actually goes on to say that Brexit was never about money and economics anyway. No one can see the future. It was an irrational decision and that's fine because people are irrational. It was a more a sense of feeling. Do we want to be independent? Do we value the nation state? Are we British or European? And only the British people can answer that ... and they did. And so that's the answer ... the correct answer. You just have to have faith in your fellow man. The instant you start thinking you're better than everyone else and you should make decisions for them for their own good, you become the kind of person who would burn other people for your convictions.
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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2020, 02:04:42 PM »
Been meaning to reply to this for a while.
I pretty much agree, it was a feeling. The UK has always had a feeling that we are separate - even superior - to most other nations.
The British people did answer that but it's notable that it was close and you know what, in polls a few years before the Referendum this was not a subject which preoccupied people. It was only when certain high profile politicians and the media started whipping people up it suddenly became something people decided was important.
It's also notable that younger people generally do feel European, they've grown up in a multi-cultural society and they seem to mostly like it. Younger people overwhelmingly wanted to Remain.
It's not about thinking I'm "better" than anyone but it's obviously bollocks to pretend that everyone's opinion about things is equally valid.
If my car breaks I call a mechanic. If I'm ill I go to a doctor.
I don't start a FB poll and take whatever action wins, because most people don't have the expertise to know what's wrong and tell me what to do to fix it.

Anyway, it's done now. I doubt the sky will fall in. But I don't think it'll make us much positive difference as people like Johnson and Farge were pretending.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2020, 04:03:32 PM »
It's not about thinking I'm "better" than anyone but it's obviously bollocks to pretend that everyone's opinion about things is equally valid.
I want to pick you up on this, because everyone's vote is equally valid and so are their opinions. That's why we all get one vote and those votes are all the same. I have the same right to feel safe as anyone else. My desire to not get stabbed isn't worth more than an uneducated person's desire not to be stabbed. So it they vote for knife crime policies because they are concerned about that, my wanting a cut in business rates doesn't trump that. The 'superior' left have to knock this idea of 'experts' and 'wisdom' out of democracy. Everyone's view is equally valid, we tally up those views and that's democracy. If you want to be ruled by scholars and elites, there are plenty of Islamic countries that run like that. Move there.

I pretty much agree, it was a feeling. The UK has always had a feeling that we are separate - even superior - to most other nations.
The British people did answer that but it's notable that it was close and you know what, in polls a few years before the Referendum this was not a subject which preoccupied people. It was only when certain high profile politicians and the media started whipping people up it suddenly became something people decided was important.
I'm going to let you into a secret. A 'Leaver' secret that I knew even before the referendum vote was in and that would deliver leave a victory. In fact, I thought leave would win by more even though every 'expert' said they wouldn't.

I have one simple theory. We speak English. And that language is going to dictate how you think about things. How the language is constructed, how we place the words in what order, what words mean and how we use them. There is an 'English' way of thinking that is different to that of say a 'French' way of thinking. This is well documented.
https://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/arts-culture/stories/does-the-language-you-speak-influence-how-you-think

Now there were two things I thought were going to smash the Remain vote.

1) No one ever remains at anything. I leave the house. But I stay at home. I don't remain at home. It is not a common word ... to remain. Or it wasn't before the election. Leaving sounds familiar ... remaining, a bit alien. If it had been Stay vs Abscond, I think you would have seen a few percentage points the other way. For fairness ... leave or stay. Whichever Etonian cockwomble picked 'remain' had clearly never had to endure a staycation ... there is no remaincation. Remain was a stupid as fuck choice of word for this.

2) Way more important. This is the one that for me told me that absolutely no one gives a shit about a number on the side of a bus. The elites kept making the argument that Brexit was an economic descision. They wheeled out Mark Carney, talked about fishing quotas and car exports and £39billion for this and £17billion for that. No one cares. These numbers are too big, they don't mean anything and no one cares. You don't go to a politician for a haircut. Why would you go to the nations hairdressers and ask them what trade policy we should follow?

The nation knew better. It knew this wasn't an economic argument, but a cultural argument. And that was only going to go one way.

If you are English, I know what your favourite story was when you were 3 years old. Its the one where mummy or daddy puff themselves up and bellow Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum ... and at this point if you are a 3 year old English child you are going to start giggling uncontrollably because you know what is coming next. "I smell the blood of an ENGLISHMAN!". At this point the average 3 year old will lose their shit because they will be thinking "the giant is going to get me because I'm an Englishman! I'm an Englishman. I'm an Englishman.

So consider the language. I can be European, I can be British, I can be English ... but I can only be an Englishman. I can't be a Britishman or a Europeanman. There is no such thing. We don't even have a word for it. So when the giant ... the establishment ... bellows out across the land to the people of England 'How do you identify?' ... "Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum?" ... the electorate starts giggling its arse off and votes that they are Englishmen.

We speak English. We're the Englishmen, North are the Scotsman, to the West are the Welshman and the Irishmen, over the water are the Frenchmen, the Dutchmen and the Germans ... and that's all she wrote. There are no Russianmen, or Spanishmen, or Americanmen or Indianmen or anything else*. Because when our language was forming, you'd never meet those far flung people's. We are the centre of our own little universe. The Englishmen ... and we were fucked if we were ever going to be Europeanmen instead.

*(we'll make an exception if you come and invade us because at that point we need a name for you ... enter stage right, the Normans and the Romans)

The instant David Cameron called the FeeFiFoFum-Referendum ... I was quite sure I knew what the result would be.

This theory was brought to you by Baby Thork and is available on a creative commons license for you to share with your friends. There are no sources or references ... these are the machinations of the English mind when it has fuck all to do on a Monday afternoon.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 05:46:18 PM by Baby Thork »
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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2020, 08:46:31 PM »
Thork:
I want to pick you up on this, because everyone's vote is equally valid and so are their opinions.

Also Thork, in the same post
Quote
You don't go to a politician for a haircut. Why would you go to the nations hairdressers and ask them what trade policy we should follow?

Dude, you literally just explained my point while disagreeing with it.
Slow handclap for you.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2020, 09:44:11 PM »
No. You missed my point.

The public is never ever ever wrong. It is infallible. That's the starting point of democracy. The instant you stray from that, you're fucked. You can't say "the public are stupid and can't be trusted to decide on Brexit" and also "the public are smart and chose me as a representative to tell you how stupid they are".

If you ask a stupid question however ... be prepared for a stupid answer.

Asking "are you European or British?" and expecting people to give you advice on macro-economic trade deals is your fault. Not the electorate's. I explained already ... you can never ask the public to decide on the economics of a thing like Brexit because they don't have all the info. So they will sensibly take the question to mean "how do you feel about Brexit culturally?". And they answered that. And tough shit if you got the right answer to the wrong question. Trade deals is not the problem of the public. You don't have to ask the public for advice on trade deals. You only have to ask them on issues of sovereignty ... and that is what they answered ... "Stay sovereign. I'm an Englishman.". The right answer.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2020, 09:04:04 AM »
Your comment on the choice of words for "Leave" and "Remain" seems spot on to me. Which also outlines some of the flaws of direct democracy as currently implemented - if the wording of a question apparently affects the answer, then those writing the questions down have an unfair advantage (or a great opportunity to fuck themselves over).
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2020, 10:32:00 AM »
I'm waiting for Thork to start ranting how expensive everything is, how he can't afford health insurance, and that its all someone else's fault.

Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2020, 11:36:03 AM »
The public is never ever ever wrong. It is infallible. That's the starting point of democracy. The instant you stray from that, you're fucked. You can't say "the public are stupid and can't be trusted to decide on Brexit" and also "the public are smart and chose me as a representative to tell you how stupid they are".
Disagree.
The starting point for democracy is "One man, one vote" (or woman these days - political correctness gone mad, I tells ya).
So the premise is that everyone has a right to an opinion (true) and that everyone's opinion is equally valid (false - obviously false).
I shouldn't need to labour this point but if you're the sort of person who, say, thinks that were the earth a ball then the oceans would go flying off into space like water off a rapidly spinning tennis ball then your opinion about the shape of the earth is not as valid as someone who has a degree in physics and understands a bit about angular velocity.
People have different experience and knowledge. Of course everyone's opinion doesn't (or shouldn't) carry equal weight.

When it comes to a General Election then I'd suggest there's no "right" answer. Would I have preferred Corbyn to Johnson or Hillary Clinton to Trump? Probably, but in neither case was it clear that either of them were particularly good options. Increasingly it feels like we're choosing the "least bad" option.

When it comes to individual issues though...FFS don't ask "the people". We shouldn't decide to leave the EU because of a vague feeling that we are "British". I'd suggest we can be British and be in the EU anyway, the French certainly don't seem to have an identity crisis in terms of being French and they're in the EU. Nor do younger people in the UK. And, for balance, we shouldn't stay in the EU because some people think the sky will fall in.

The decision about this should be made based on careful analysis of the benefits and drawbacks of being in or out of the EU, not because John in Scunthorpe doesn't like the "bloody Frogs". You're right, it's not the electorate's fault they were asked, Cameron's at fault for that. He gambled on the Scottish Referendum, won that and went double or quits on this one. The dick.

I see you brought up sovereignty. To be honest, that was an argument that briefly swayed me. But then I realised something - we are sovereign. Any power we have ceded to the EU we have chosen to do so and we can take back if we choose to. How did we start the process of leaving the EU? Who did we have to go to war with? No-one, we just had to write a letter. The process of leaving is complicated but we didn't have to go to war because we are sovereign, being in the EU wasn't imposed on us. We chose to join, we can choose to leave. And we have. Is it the right decision? Time will tell. But if it is then it wasn't made for the right reasons and it wasn't made by the right people. People who know what they're talking about should be making these decisions. They might still bugger it up of course just like a doctor can misdiagnose people, but they've got a better chance of getting it right than hair-dressers.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2020, 12:23:40 PM »
Your comment on the choice of words for "Leave" and "Remain" seems spot on to me. Which also outlines some of the flaws of direct democracy as currently implemented - if the wording of a question apparently affects the answer, then those writing the questions down have an unfair advantage (or a great opportunity to fuck themselves over).
Yeah, I have never seen anyone commentate on this in the public sphere despite all the moaning about numbers on the side of a bus and Russian interference and every other excuse. No one seems to have looked at what I would imagine is a very influential factor when played out on a macro scale.

The wording is essential and the electoral commission scored an own goal and of course ... when your enemy is making a mistake, you stay quiet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Referendum_question

I'm waiting for Thork to start ranting how expensive everything is, how he can't afford health insurance, and that its all someone else's fault.
You are the archetypal remoaner in the UK. You still think it is an economic argument, despite the British public telling the establishment in 4 elections now that it isn't. You refuse to see that no one gives a shit about the trade implications. It is about identity and sovereignty. Not shareholders on the FTSE 100.

The starting point for democracy is "One man, one vote" (or woman these days - political correctness gone mad, I tells ya).
So the premise is that everyone has a right to an opinion (true) and that everyone's opinion is equally valid (false - obviously false).
I shouldn't need to labour this point but if you're the sort of person who, say, thinks that were the earth a ball then the oceans would go flying off into space like water off a rapidly spinning tennis ball then your opinion about the shape of the earth is not as valid as someone who has a degree in physics and understands a bit about angular velocity.
People have different experience and knowledge. Of course everyone's opinion doesn't (or shouldn't) carry equal weight.

And I will disagree. If I want to believe in a cloud fairy and have the government money spent on a mosque or church, I have that right and can vote for that. I can believe whatever I like and no matter how ridiculous YOU think it is, you can suck it. Your vote and opinion isn't worth more than mine. If enough people think the earth is flat and that makes them happy, you'll be sucking that up too. Democracy isn't about who can brow beat who into submission or make the prettiest pie-chart. It is about the most popular ideas prevailing.

When it comes to a General Election then I'd suggest there's no "right" answer. Would I have preferred Corbyn to Johnson or Hillary Clinton to Trump? Probably, but in neither case was it clear that either of them were particularly good options. Increasingly it feels like we're choosing the "least bad" option.
Actually both those were pretty easy. Do you value community or a love of self? If you love yourself above all else, join the hollywood celebs, virtue signallers and academics. Those who believe they are better than everyone else ... and vote left. There is a reason why entire industries like media are all left wing. Narcissists are drawn to those industries. Stand up comedians, singers, actors ... anyone who has a business and makes themselves the product ... those people will vote left. The young also tend to be very self-absorbed so they find the left alluring until they get a bit older. Everyone else votes conservative.

Its the age old battle ... the individual vs the collective. Individualism always brings rise to disaster as nations fall apart. Communism, Fascism, Puritanism. They are all sides of the same coin. A ruling class of people who know better than everyone else and will burn anyone else people for what they believe.  >o<

When it comes to individual issues though...FFS don't ask "the people". We shouldn't decide to leave the EU because of a vague feeling that we are "British".
Yes we should. You don't hand over the keys to the nation to a foreign power without permission. Are you sick?

I'd suggest we can be British and be in the EU anyway, the French certainly don't seem to have an identity crisis in terms of being French and they're in the EU. Nor do younger people in the UK. And, for balance, we shouldn't stay in the EU because some people think the sky will fall in.
We asked everyone's opinion, counted up those opinions and already decided. It is time to move on.

The decision about this should be made based on careful analysis of the benefits and drawbacks of being in or out of the EU, not because John in Scunthorpe doesn't like the "bloody Frogs". You're right, it's not the electorate's fault they were asked, Cameron's at fault for that. He gambled on the Scottish Referendum, won that and went double or quits on this one. The dick.
No. Cameron had to ask. The British government of the last 40 years is at fault. They had been doing trade deals and trading sovereignty for lower tariffs and access. But sovereignty wasn't their's to give away. That is why the Conservative party had these problems. Half the party knew this was wrong ... treacherous even. And they insisted ... you must ask the people. You can't sign us up to being a vassal state without asking. Go ask. And it is right they asked because it turns out people didn't like what they were doing.

I see you brought up sovereignty. To be honest, that was an argument that briefly swayed me. But then I realised something - we are sovereign. Any power we have ceded to the EU we have chosen to do so and we can take back if we choose to.
Well that's just it. We didn't choose to, did we? In fact when we were asked, we said no. And you don't get to take back control of anything once you cede it to the EU. That's it. Its gone. Its theirs once you give it away and they never ever give anything back.

How did we start the process of leaving the EU? Who did we have to go to war with?
The establishment.

No-one, we just had to write a letter. The process of leaving is complicated but we didn't have to go to war because we are sovereign, being in the EU wasn't imposed on us. We chose to join, we can choose to leave. And we have. Is it the right decision? Time will tell. But if it is then it wasn't made for the right reasons and it wasn't made by the right people. People who know what they're talking about should be making these decisions. They might still bugger it up of course just like a doctor can misdiagnose people, but they've got a better chance of getting it right than hair-dressers.
People who know what they are talking about can be biased, corrupt and wrong. You give a few people all the power like that to make massive decisions without any question ever ... and they'll be rolling around in cash-for-access money. Cash for Access is the cornerstone of the EU anyway. The EU needs to die. Its an awful idea. Our leaving speeds that process along.
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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2020, 02:54:43 PM »
Your vote and opinion isn't worth more than mine.

My vote isn't, but my opinion is. Or maybe yours is. It depends what we're being asked and what our experience and knowledge are.
This is the exact problem with democracy. I'm not going to necessarily suggest a solution to that problem, but I see it - and our FPTP system - as problems.

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It is about the most popular ideas prevailing.

It is. But that's a silly way of doing something. Ideas being popular doesn't make them right or sensible.
When people were asked to name a boat they went for "Boaty McBoatface", FFS.
People are idiots, on average. If they can't be trusted to name a boat they certainly can't be trusted to understand all the complexities around our membership of the EU and decide whether it's a good thing or not.
Witness the spike in people Googling questions about the EU after the result was known:

https://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-the-eu-is-top-google-search-in-uk-after-brexit-2016-6?r=US&IR=T

This does not shout to me of a well informed electorate who understood all the relevant issues and came to an educated decision.
As you say, it was more of a feeling. A "feeling" is not a good way to make policies, things being popular isn't either.
And, worse, it was a one off snapshot of public opinion. Any vote is that of course, but in most cases if you ended up with the "wrong" government, or one which becomes deeply unpopular then you have another go in a few years. With this "the people" have decided on a matter the consequences of which will be felt for generations. And, as I said, maybe it was the right decision. But if it was then we didn't get to it for the right reasons.
Plenty of polls have suggested that were we to have another vote (my head spins when people say that another vote would be undemocractic) we'd get a different result. Farage himself said that a 52/48 result to Remain would be "unfinished business", that was the result to leave and suddenly it's "you lost, get over it" as though that a one off vote should end all further debate.

You say that Boris vs Corbyn and Trump vs Clinton were "easy", but a lot of people got it "wrong" then. Trump lost the popular vote. Boris didn't get over half the popular vote either.

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Yes we should. You don't hand over the keys to the nation to a foreign power without permission.

Well, for a start that's not what membership of the EU is, and you know it.
And secondly, they have permission to do what they like by dint of the election result which put them into power. That gives them a mandate to do what they want.

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No. Cameron had to ask.

No, he didn't. Why did he? 5 years ago almost no-one gave a shit about the EU or our membership of it. The issue came to prominence through people like the Daily Mail lying about "THEY WANT TO BAN PRAWN COCKTAIL CRISPS!!!" or "THEY WANT TO BAN BENDY BANANAS!!!", but a few years ago it was not thought to be an important issue facing the country:



No sovereignty was given up - again, we had to write a letter to leave, not start a war. We ceded certain powers in exchange for membership of a club which gave us certain benefits. Whether that exchange was worthwhile is part of the debate around our membership, but we chose to do it, we can choose to reverse it. I've no idea why you said that was irreversible, what's the point of leaving then? "Take back control" was what Farage or Boris were shouting endlessly.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2020, 09:32:03 PM »
but I see it - and our FPTP system - as problems.
FPTP isn't a problem. It is a godsend. If we had proportional representation we'd be still stuck in Brexit limbo forever. Many countries in Europe went PR and it ruined them. They couldn't get anything done. You just end up with coalitions and eventually a broken system.

Consider Northern Ireland. They run a form of PR called single transferable vote (STV). Sounds fair doesn't it? More representation for smaller parties. Until you consider the reality. No one can ever get a majority. And if the two major parties disagree ... your parliament shuts down. The Northern Irish Parliament has been shut down for almost 3 years now. Unable to function. Unable to govern.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-51068774

Imagine the British government shut down for 3 years, and I mean completely shut over Brexit. That would have been us. You gotta go with FPTP. At least then someone has a chance of getting a majority.

It is. But that's a silly way of doing something. Ideas being popular doesn't make them right or sensible.
When people were asked to name a boat they went for "Boaty McBoatface", FFS.
What a terrible example. The public named that boat perfectly. The stupid idiots running the show then over-ruled that wisdom. And now they have a boat no one cares about. It was supposed to be an Antarctic research vessel. It was supposed get kids interested in science and ecology. That's why they had a competition to get school kids making suggestions and get public interest in it. And then it happens. A gift into their laps. Boaty McBoatface. One of the world's most famous boats. Where people wait at the docks for it to dock and take pictures. Kids buying Boaty books like budgie the helicopter. Stuffed toys, a mobile game, merch, kids projects at schools ... a real life Thomas the Tank Engine ... and they threw it all away and called it the Sir David Attenborough and no one has given a fuck since. The public weren't the idiots. The public got that one bang on.

People are idiots, on average. If they can't be trusted to name a boat they certainly can't be trusted to understand all the complexities around our membership of the EU and decide whether it's a good thing or not.
People disagreeing with you doesn't make them idiots.

Witness the spike in people Googling questions about the EU after the result was known:
https://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-the-eu-is-top-google-search-in-uk-after-brexit-2016-6?r=US&IR=T
If people have absolutely no idea, they are as likely to vote remain as leave. So they just cancel each other out. You really should read about the wisdom of crowds.

This does not shout to me of a well informed electorate who understood all the relevant issues and came to an educated decision.
As you say, it was more of a feeling. A "feeling" is not a good way to make policies, things being popular isn't either.
And, worse, it was a one off snapshot of public opinion. Any vote is that of course, but in most cases if you ended up with the "wrong" government, or one which becomes deeply unpopular then you have another go in a few years. With this "the people" have decided on a matter the consequences of which will be felt for generations. And, as I said, maybe it was the right decision. But if it was then we didn't get to it for the right reasons.
Plenty of polls have suggested that were we to have another vote (my head spins when people say that another vote would be undemocractic) we'd get a different result. Farage himself said that a 52/48 result to Remain would be "unfinished business", that was the result to leave and suddenly it's "you lost, get over it" as though that a one off vote should end all further debate.
You need to get over it.
Quote from: Winston S. Churchill
Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

You say that Boris vs Corbyn and Trump vs Clinton were "easy", but a lot of people got it "wrong" then. Trump lost the popular vote. Boris didn't get over half the popular vote either.
And if Clinto had got in, there would just have been an even harder push to the Republicans in this election as the electorate seeked to right that wrong. It'd even out.

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No. Cameron had to ask.

No, he didn't. Why did he? 5 years ago almost no-one gave a shit about the EU or our membership of it. The issue came to prominence through people like the Daily Mail lying about "THEY WANT TO BAN PRAWN COCKTAIL CRISPS!!!" or "THEY WANT TO BAN BENDY BANANAS!!!", but a few years ago it was not thought to be an important issue facing the country:
I already told you, the ERG were concerned Britain was trading sovereignty without permission of the people. That is illegal. It came to a head when Cameron went to renegotiate our terms and the EU told him they wanted more powers.


No sovereignty was given up
When you must open your borders, accept laws from someone else and pay tax to someone else ... you're giving up sovereignty.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 10:59:44 PM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2020, 01:49:18 PM »
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And if Clinto had got in, there would just have been an even harder push to the Republicans in this election as the electorate seeked to right that wrong. It'd even out.

Right which wrong? On your view the electorate is infallible and their vote has spoken. The People can not make an incorrect choice.