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Offline Pete Svarrior

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A question to our resident Brexiteer
« on: November 01, 2019, 02:27:15 PM »
Thork: Brexit Party vs BoJo's Tories?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 02:04:08 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2019, 10:52:12 PM »
Brexit Party.


The 3 main parties are all remain options.


Lib dems: Revoke A50
Labour: 2nd referendum
Tories: May's Deal which is basically just renegotiated membership.

Only the Brexit party is actually advocating we leave the EU.


I will never ever vote for a main party again until we leave the EU properly. There is no point in voting Labour or Conservative if the EU is in charge. Once the EU is dismissed, then we can think about who we want to run the country. Otherwise it doesn't matter who gets in.
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Offline markjo

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2019, 11:24:31 PM »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2019, 01:09:02 AM »
Corbyn ... A communist whose every manifesto pledge is a state sanctioned theft of private property.
Martin Lewis ... a guy that gives advice on TV about how to get good deals on Tesco vouchers.
Stephen Hawking ... dead, and also wrong about pretty much everything whilst he was alive.
Back of the queue Obama ... hahaha ... go fuck yourself. Back of the queue? You really don't understand the British at all.
Branson ... a CONVICTED and jailed tax evader who now describes himself as a 'tax exile' having moved all his money out of the country.


Yeah, I'll take the top row thanks.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2019, 09:30:41 AM »
Thanks for your answer. I figured that would more or less be it, but most hard Brexiteers I ask don't really want to talk about it.

I take it you disagree with the people who would rather vote tactically for BoJo so that they can get *any* Brexit at all, and prevent a Labour government? A split Leave vote could lead to odd results thanks to FPTP
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 09:32:35 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2019, 09:09:46 PM »
Thanks for your answer. I figured that would more or less be it, but most hard Brexiteers I ask don't really want to talk about it.

I take it you disagree with the people who would rather vote tactically for BoJo so that they can get *any* Brexit at all, and prevent a Labour government? A split Leave vote could lead to odd results thanks to FPTP

We won't get a labour government. Not until Corbyn is gone. Remainers fear communism more than leaving the EU. Labour have also been less than decisive on Brexit. I think even their own supporters know they don't give a shit about Brexit as long as they get into number 10 so they can start snatching private property and ushering in 5 year plans. If you are a hardcore remoaner, you'll go with the lying ilLiberal unDemocrats.

Below is a nice little video pretty much summing up why we shouldn't sign that god-awful 'deal'.


You'll like Brexbox. It'll give you an insight into what it is like for me watching the BBC and the rest of the remainstream media in the UK. You'll hate every moment.

But in short, no, I won't be voting Conservative.
1) My local Conservative MP is the incompetent arch remoaner Theresa May.
2) My constituency is going to vote Conservative whether I like it or not. Its possibly the safest seat in the UK (hence the reason the former PM was there).
3) Boris' deal is just May's deal again ... which by his own admission was a 'vassalage' agreement.
4) Boris has betrayed Brexiteers with this deal. He'll get punished at the ballot boxes and it will be natural Conservatives like me that do that to him.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 09:28:00 PM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2019, 07:14:31 AM »
Oh yeah, I forgot you're in May's constituency. I hope you succeed in kicking her out, unlikely as it may be

Thanks for the recommendation, I'll give Brexbox a try
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 11:32:13 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2019, 10:32:00 AM »
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll give Brexbox a try
Eh, that was mediocre. It didn't make me rage, nor did it help me understand.

The lawyer guy was good, and took great care to avoid answering the questions that would make him look bad (while still giving the others an answer they thought agreed with them). The rest were boring. A standard political party broadcast, in which they kept saying that "since the deal says what it says, we can't let the EU do what it's doing" - the weasel words and lack of specificity means that it didn't tickle my autism in the right way.

But hey, it was a quick venture into a different echo chamber from my own, which is always fun.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 10:34:05 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2019, 09:20:29 PM »
Well thanks for giving it a watch.

Normally when you post a link to something, no one ever clicks on it. That's why half the morans on this site still think the earth is round.



Also, whilst Alex Phillips would definitely be worth a poke, full disclosure ... she did work for Cambridge Analytica.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2019, 03:42:17 PM »
Also, whilst Alex Phillips would definitely be worth a poke, full disclosure ... she did work for Cambridge Analytica.
You say that as if it was a bad thing ;)

Follow-up question. So, BoJo's deal is a reheated version of May's deal, which is not really Brexit. If you had no other choice, would you rather take that deal or cancel Brexit altogether? Or does it make no difference either way?
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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2019, 04:04:26 PM »
Also, whilst Alex Phillips would definitely be worth a poke, full disclosure ... she did work for Cambridge Analytica.
You say that as if it was a bad thing ;)

Follow-up question. So, BoJo's deal is a reheated version of May's deal, which is not really Brexit. If you had no other choice, would you rather take that deal or cancel Brexit altogether? Or does it make no difference either way?


Would I like to stay in the EU, or stay in the EU? Remainers seem to think this is some kind of choice and that they are generous for such an offer. I can't wrap my head around it.

Obviously I don't want either. In both cases, we end up subjugated by the French and Germans.

If I had to choose ... I guess stay in the EU, because the deal will nail us to the floor and I can only see the EU making the deal worse and worse over time as they keep changing the T&Cs on us. The ratchet, as its known. It is difficult for them to single us out when they have to follow rules too in the EU, albeit rules tailored just for them. But this deal just allows them to be outright vindictive and I don't know why we'd would put ourselves in that position. Just tell the EU to fuck off.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2019, 06:04:21 PM »
Would I like to stay in the EU, or stay in the EU? Remainers seem to think this is some kind of choice and that they are generous for such an offer. I can't wrap my head around it.
Oh, nah, I know it's a super shit choice from your perspective. I don't think it's generous by any stretch of the imagination, but it may yet come to a choice between those two options. From my limited understanding, a Brexiteer could make an argument for the deal, because it opens up trade deal possibilities a little bit, or an argument for remaining, because that way the UK retains not just its obligations, but also privileges within the EU. But that's just me trying to guess what someone else might think. I'd much rather hear it from the horse's mouth.

The only reason I'm asking these questions is to better understand the Leave side (or at least one faction of it). With the political situation being as shit as it is, most of the time me trying to talk to a Brexiteer just gets a response along the lines of "BLOODY REMOANER WE VOTED TO LEAVE GET OVER IT". I'm sure the sentiment is sincere, but it doesn't help bridge any gaps, y'know? Your answers are direct and passionate, but also informative - and I appreciate both aspects of that.
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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2019, 11:59:12 PM »
Oh, nah, I know it's a super shit choice from your perspective. I don't think it's generous by any stretch of the imagination, but it may yet come to a choice between those two options.

Well that is kind of it. If you provide either of those two options, you haven't solved the problem. It will never ever go away until we leave the EU properly. Millions of people like me will just keep voting out and out and out in every election forever more. We don't move on until the vote is respected. We can't move on. Because our vote is just a democratic placebo if it isn't respected, and there isn't any point in voting for anything else ever if they choose what to respect and what to ignore. So we fuck up every other election from now until we die until they deliver the thing we voted for in 2016. I'll vote UKIP, Brexit party, Monster raving looney party, independent, whatever is tactical and hurts the main parties the most until Brexit is done. In local elections, European elections, general elections, referendums ...

We're not moving on. It needs delivering.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 12:00:44 AM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Parsifal

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2019, 07:56:11 AM »
Well that is kind of it. If you provide either of those two options, you haven't solved the problem. It will never ever go away until we leave the EU properly. Millions of people like me will just keep voting out and out and out in every election forever more. We don't move on until the vote is respected. We can't move on. Because our vote is just a democratic placebo if it isn't respected, and there isn't any point in voting for anything else ever if they choose what to respect and what to ignore. So we fuck up every other election from now until we die until they deliver the thing we voted for in 2016. I'll vote UKIP, Brexit party, Monster raving looney party, independent, whatever is tactical and hurts the main parties the most until Brexit is done. In local elections, European elections, general elections, referendums ...

We're not moving on. It needs delivering.

What happens if there's a second Brexit referendum and the result is Remain? Which referendum should be respected then?
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2019, 10:18:17 AM »
What happens if there's a second Brexit referendum and the result is Remain? Which referendum should be respected then?


That would pretty much be the BSOD for our democracy. I think at that point the head of the armed forces needs to march into Westminster and give our democracy a hard reset. I think back to 1653 the last time Parliament started doing whatever it wanted and Oliver Cromwell marched in and booted the lot of them out. The words he used on that day are more or less perfect for the problems we have today.

Quote from: Oliver Cromwell


It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice.

Ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government.

Ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess?

Ye have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your God. Which of you have not bartered your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defiled this sacred place, and turned the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices?

Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation. You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance.

Your country therefore calls upon me to cleanse this Augean stable, by putting a final period to your iniquitous proceedings in this House; and which by God's help, and the strength he has given me, I am now come to do.

I command ye therefore, upon the peril of your lives, to depart immediately out of this place.

Go, get you out! Make haste! Ye venal slaves be gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.

In the name of God, go!
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2019, 11:42:06 AM »
Just so I'm perfectly clear about my intentions here: I'm not trying to suggest that this would solve the problem, not at all. Telling you to just accept Remain or Remain Lite is just as shit as Leavers telling Remainers that "we voted to leave raaargh". "Just roll over and accept the supremacy of the other half of the country" will never work.

All I'm trying to do is understand the problem. I'm a spectator, I won't have a vote for at least another half a year if not much longer, but I'm still somewhat invested in how the country I've lived a third of my life in is run. Sure, there's a side that comes across to me as more reasonable, but they're also the only side that will normally talk to me. So now I'm talking to the other side. Not to convince them, not to mock them, but simply to understand.

I'm noticing a trend. The Brexiteers that will talk to me rather than just shout me out of the room tend to say two things: "We'll keep voting Leave until we leave" and "we will never vote again if our will is not respected" (I'm assuming the latter is at least slightly exaggerated). Isn't there an obvious threat looming there? It looks like if the Remain side manages to get its way, the Leave side might become so disheartened that they'll lose momentum. And that would be a shit outcome. At this stage, all possible outcomes are shit.
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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2019, 01:43:26 PM »
I view it as an ideological battle. Who has sovereignty in the United Kingdom? Who is in charge? Its the most important thing you could fight for. If you aren't in charge and someone else is, now whatever they say goes. You have no say on anything else anyway. You'll be dictated to.


Now, we are led to believe, that the people of the UK are sovereign. Not the Queen. Not Parliament. The people. And once every 5 years they vote and place sovereignty in the hands of representatives to run the country for them. The law states that sovereignty must be returned in full to the electorate 5 years later so that they have the ability to choose who to represent them next. We have a Parliamentary democracy. This is important because our politicians have been giving away our sovereignty without our permission to the EU. They can't do that. Its against the law. Cameron rightly said ... well if the EU wants these extra powers, you have to ask the people for them, they aren't mine to give. The people said no. Parliament is trying to give away the people's sovereignty without their permission. Its not something parliament can do.

Quote from: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/what-is-brexit-why-is-there-an-eu-referendum-a7042791.html
Ever since the Maastricht Treaty of 1992, which created the modern EU, there have been those calling for another vote to take into account how things have has changed, with Eurosceptics claiming that membership now represents an unacceptable transfer of powers from our Parliament to Brussels. It has been a running sore for the Conservative Party in particular, with many MPs and much of the membership never fully reconciled to our membership.

That's why we had a referendum in the first place. If we said yes, we want to be members, we would have consented as a people to giving Brussels power. That's why it was a matter of referendum and couldn't just be passed as a bill. MPs can't give away sovereignty, only the people can. Same for Scottish referendum. A transfer of sovereignty from Westminster to Holyrood. The Scots chose to leave sovereignty with Westminster.

Now, with that said, parliament therefore does not trump the will of the people. If the people vote out, parliament cannot and should not be able to stop that. Parliament are representatives, not dictators.

However, parliament has decided to ignore what the very people who placed them there want them to do. They have created a paradox. They claim "we are in charge because the people who are all knowing and all wise put us here" and also claim "the people have no power whatsoever and don't know what they are talking about and we'll ignore them and do what we want". Remainers are legally in the wrong. They are trying to transfer power without consent. To steal the soverignty of the British people.

So when you say "Sure, there's a side that comes across to me as more reasonable, but they're also the only side that will normally talk to me." ... how are they more reasonable? How is giving away sovereignty that is not yours to give reasonable? How is ignoring the will of the people in favour of a tyrannical parliament reasonable? How is ignoring a democratic instruction reasonable?

Something you must consider. We shouldn't have entered the EU without consent in the first place. They should have had a referendum in 1992 to ask if they can give away sovereignty. Its not a question of 'should we leave?'. They have no permission at all to have placed us in the EU. They have been caught acting against the interest of the people. If we'd voted remain ... it would have been all over forever. The EU would have the sovereignty of the British. But call it the wisdom of crowds or whatever you like ... the British said no fricking way. And that must be respected.

This is also why 'the deal' is unacceptable. You can have a deal swapping tarifs and access and whatever else. But you can't swap sovereignty. Its not your to give. No ECJ. No Customs Union. No Single Market.

And you see, this is the wicked and cynical thing about the EU. It is not a nation. It doesn't need anything. It doesn't need British fish or German cars. It acts as a middle man. It says "we'll swap access to British waters for lower tariff German cars ... and as middle men we'll take a little something from both of you ... power". That's all the EU wants. That's all it will trade for. It doesn't need to trade for anything because it is not a country with citizens. It is an entity that only desires power over Europe. Why is every deal about handing over powers? Why can't we just have trade deals? Answer: Because the EU doesn't need anything via trade. It only wants power over you. If you won't give it that, it won't trade.

*as an aside, when we have a perfectly good political forum, why would you choose complete nonsense as a place to debate such matters?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 02:00:51 PM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2019, 01:59:15 PM »
*as an aside, when we have a perfectly good political forum, why would you choose complete nonsense as a place to debate such matter?
I started with what was more or less a shitpost. I hadn't expected for the thread to evolve in this direction, though I'm glad it did. [EDIT: now renamed and moved to PR&S]

So when you say "Sure, there's a side that comes across to me as more reasonable, but they're also the only side that will normally talk to me." ... how are they more reasonable? How is giving away sovereignty that is not yours to give reasonable? How is ignoring the will of the people in favour of a tyrannical parliament reasonable? How is ignoring a democratic instruction reasonable?
Well, we're clearly in very different mindsets about this. You view it primarily as an issue of sovereignty (and I respect that, your explanation makes sense), whereas my primary concern is with maintaining a high quality of life. I'm also obviously much less tied to the nation than you are. Whether we live in an independent England, the United Kingdom, or the United States of Europe doesn't bother me too much. I'm sure it's a product of my upbringing, and I'm not claiming that my position is superior - it's just different. To me, it won't matter too much who is sovereign in a country where politicians feel the need to reassure us there will be "adequate food".

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm sure the prophecies of impending doom are greatly exaggerated by the Remain side. The country won't collapse if we leave the EU. But I also think that the Leave side is wrong in trying to completely dismissing the economic side of the debate. The poor will get poorer, and from where I'm sitting, that's a huge injustice.

Remainers are legally in the wrong.
Well, legally speaking, Parliament is sovereign. There is a legitimate debate to be had about whether it should be sovereign, but currently it is. That's why they get to pass laws even when they speak against the result of the referendum (which, legally, was called with a clause of "it's advisory only and we reserve the right to tell you to shove it"). I actually agree with you that this shouldn't be how it is, but that's just one part of the broken British system.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 02:05:41 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2019, 02:14:11 PM »
Well, we're clearly in very different mindsets about this. You view it primarily as an issue of sovereignty (and I respect that, your explanation makes sense), whereas my primary concern is with maintaining a high quality of life.

Its the same thing. How can you maintain a high quality of life when you are not free? When someone else makes your laws, taxes you and spends your money as they like? You no longer have your own destiny in your hands and must rely on the benevolence of foreign powers. And frankly if we are going to look at history, placing our future in the hands of the French and Germans isn't going to be good for us. They don't like us. They are very happy to have wars with us to get their own way. Imagine if they can do what they want and we just have to accept it without a shot fired?

The EU will vampire the wealth out of the UK as fast as it can once if gets its teeth into her juicy neck. And care for her and her people the we way it cares for the Greeks and the Italians. Its a German-Franco Empire. Nothing more. Anyone else is a vassal.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2019, 02:25:09 PM »
How can you maintain a high quality of life when you are not free? When someone else makes your laws, taxes you and spends your money as they like? You no longer have your own destiny in your hands and must rely on the benevolence of foreign powers.
But "someone else" makes my laws either way. Currently it's MPs and the EU - neither of them are me, or anyone I have real sway over. A UK citizen has the same amount of input into British politics (you get to elect an MP, will that MP do what you want? Probably not, as we've seen) as he does into EU politics.

The EU doesn't restrict your or my freedoms - it restricts the freedoms of MPs

Oh, but MEPs don't get to propose laws, they only vote for them. But neither do MPs. It's the government that brings laws forward. It's also the government (in part) who decides who represents us in the drafting of EU law.

The EU will vampire the wealth out of the UK as fast as it can once if gets its teeth into her juicy neck.
Again, UK governments are already doing that. If anything, the EU has at least imposed some means of redistribution. If the government had its way, all of the UK's wealth would get sucked into London/Panama. The EU forces them into spreading it at least a little bit. Perhaps if we had more trustworthy governments (n.b. I'm not just talking about Tories here, Labour were not better), I'd be more willing to accept that giving them more power is a good idea.

I sincerely worry that even if a hard Brexit happens, it won't yield any of the tangible benefits you're hoping for. It'll give the UK the ability to change things, but I reckon they'd be shafting us just as hard, if not harder than in the current arrangement.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 02:27:43 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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