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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2020, 02:03:17 PM »
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And if Clinto had got in, there would just have been an even harder push to the Republicans in this election as the electorate seeked to right that wrong. It'd even out.

Right which wrong? On your view the electorate is infallible and their vote has spoken. The People can not make an incorrect choice.

I don't think you understand what democracy is. It is an ideological BELIEF that the people of a nation will always vote in the best interests of the nation. If you won't BELIEVE that dogma, then you can't be a democracy. It doesn't work. And then you end up with an 'expert' like Hitler or and 'expert' like Joseph Stalin running the place.

Quote from: The Almighty Wikipedia, peace be on it
Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church." Infallibility is, according to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, "more than a simple, de facto absence of error. It is a positive perfection, ruling out the possibility of error".
^ Its like this. Democratic infallibility. Sign up to it or go believe in the policies of Kim Jong-Un.

Whatever the people decide ... we all must accept it was the right decision and get on with it. The alternative is always worse. 
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2020, 08:35:00 PM »
So Brexit can be a mistake in the same way that electing HRC could be. Got it.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2020, 09:40:23 PM »
So Brexit can be a mistake in the same way that electing HRC could be. Got it.
Honouring Brexit isn't a mistake. That was the will of the people. Nothing else matters.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2020, 05:35:07 AM »
So Brexit can be a mistake in the same way that electing HRC could be. Got it.
Honouring Brexit isn't a mistake. That was the will of the people. Nothing else matters.

Then why would HRC be a wrong that needs righting? She was the will of the people. I’m having trouble reconciling your positions.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2020, 07:41:35 PM »
So Brexit can be a mistake in the same way that electing HRC could be. Got it.
Honouring Brexit isn't a mistake. That was the will of the people. Nothing else matters.

Then why would HRC be a wrong that needs righting? She was the will of the people. I’m having trouble reconciling your positions.

In order to become elected, HRC required the majority of people to vote for her in the electoral college. You're making a false equivalency to the UK's referendum, as the UK does not have any such electoral college. The US federal government operates differently than the UK, because the US is fifty states, while the UK is only one. To say "HRC was the will of the people" makes no sense unless you're specifically referring to "the will of the people in California" or "the will of the people in New York".
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 07:45:20 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2020, 09:35:10 PM »
I guess you missed the part where it was a hypothetical scenario.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2020, 10:38:16 PM »
I guess you missed the part where it was a hypothetical scenario.

A nonsensical hypothetical scenario is just as worthless as a nonsensical but actual scenario.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2020, 11:04:00 PM »
I guess you missed the part where it was a hypothetical scenario.

A nonsensical hypothetical scenario is just as worthless as a nonsensical but actual scenario.

Thanks for your super valuable input.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2020, 11:09:41 PM »
Democracy. You accept the result of a vote. It isn't complicated.
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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2020, 11:24:45 AM »
FPTP isn't a problem. It is a godsend. If we had proportional representation we'd be still stuck in Brexit limbo forever. Many countries in Europe went PR and it ruined them. They couldn't get anything done. You just end up with coalitions and eventually a broken system.

PR has worked fine in Germany. Democracy should surely about "the people"s views being represented. So in one of the recent elections UKIP got 12% of the vote. 1 in 8 people voted for them and they got 1 in 650 MPs. That tells me it's not a great system. It might have produced strong governments but that's not the same as them being effective or good.

To respond to your other points...I'm going to concede the Boaty McBoatface one, it was a bad example.
The wisdom of crowds thing is something I've heard of but having looked into it two of the criteria for it to apply are:

"For crowds to be wise, they must be characterized by a diversity of opinion and each person's opinion should be independent of those around him or her."

I'd agree the first of those applies to an electorate, the first of those certainly does not. We are all influenced by each other, by the media, now by social media, and by the campaigns of both sides. So yeah, guessing the weight of a cow (an example given as demonstrating this effect) might give you a better result if you ask a lot of people. And that kinda makes sense, some will overestimate, others will underestimate. But as soon as they start discussing the matter and start influencing each other or see a load of headlines about how the EU is making cows fatter then it's going to affect the result.
People aren't idiots because they disagree with me, they're idiots simply because they are. You surely aren't arguing that the electorate are, on average, well educated and understand all the implications of us being an EU member or not being. You said it yourself, it was more of a feeling. Boris is popular because he's funny and likeable, whether a lot of the things he says are true doesn't seem to matter to people. People increasingly don't seem to care what is true.

Sovereignty is generally not something one gives up, it's something which is taken from you, often as the result of a war. Like how we took India's sovereignty and a bunch of other country's when we built our Empire, countries who now celebrate their independence from us since we gave it back or they took it back.
We chose to join the EU, we can choose to leave - because we are sovereign.

And even within the EU we didn't agree to everything, we opted out of being part of the Shengen agreement, for example.
We did sign up to freedom of movement, but the Daily Mail's myth of these immigrants "coming over here" and being given a free house and living it up on benefits are bollox. There are rules on what they can claim and EU rules allow us to deport citizens from other EU countries if they have become a burden on the welfare system. Immigration has been a good thing for us economically and in terms of filling skills gaps. Old people don't like it because of "all them foreigners coming over here", but as you say, that's just a feeling, it's not because of any facts.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2020, 12:06:51 PM »
We chose to join the EU, we can choose to leave - because we are sovereign.
For now. Texas chose to join the USA, a loose federation of states, but it can't leave the USA, the nation.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2020, 12:27:42 PM »
I'd agree the first of those applies to an electorate, the first of those certainly does not. We are all influenced by each other, by the media, now by social media, and by the campaigns of both sides. So yeah, guessing the weight of a cow (an example given as demonstrating this effect) might give you a better result if you ask a lot of people. And that kinda makes sense, some will overestimate, others will underestimate. But as soon as they start discussing the matter and start influencing each other or see a load of headlines about how the EU is making cows fatter then it's going to affect the result.
People aren't idiots because they disagree with me, they're idiots simply because they are. You surely aren't arguing that the electorate are, on average, well educated and understand all the implications of us being an EU member or not being. You said it yourself, it was more of a feeling. Boris is popular because he's funny and likeable, whether a lot of the things he says are true doesn't seem to matter to people. People increasingly don't seem to care what is true.
Well let's apply the wisdom of crowds to Brexit.
In the example of the weight of a cow you could ask me and I'm going to guess right now that a cow weighs about 450kg. Ok, now I'm going to google it ... one moment.

Google tells me dairy cows weigh anything from 453kg to 816kg. So I'm a little on the low side. But I'm not orders of magnitude out. I didn't guess 84kg, I didn't guess 56,000kg. Some people however, would. And that is because despite common consensus on this website ... I'm not an idiot. I thought ... mmm, I weigh about 70kg ... a cow is probably about 6 or 7 times as heavy as me and plucked out a number in the middle of that. I used my limited knowledge to get a ballpark figure. Now some people are incredibly stupid as you say. And they will just blurt out 56,000kg as an answer. They had no idea of how to estimate it, they don't know anything about cows, it wouldn't dawn on them to use their own weight as a starting point and they just go for a big number because cows are big. But they still had a vote ... and that vote carried the same weight as mine did in the guess the weight of the cow competition. And adding in their stupid guess with my more sensible guess through the magic of the wisdom of crowds meant we both got closer to the real answer. Maybe a farmer was also asked and he owns that type of cow and pings 653kg and is only 2kg out. Well his guess doesn't move the needle very far, does it?

And so Brexit. Maybe someone who knew absolutely nothing about Brexit voted to leave ... but by the same token, people with far more insight than either of us also voted to leave. And the same could be said of remain. And when we pool all those opinions from the most stupid of the stupid, to the better guesses of ourselves, to the absolute experts in the field ... we come out with the right result.


Sovereignty is generally not something one gives up, it's something which is taken from you, often as the result of a war. Like how we took India's sovereignty and a bunch of other country's when we built our Empire, countries who now celebrate their independence from us since we gave it back or they took it back.
We chose to join the EU, we can choose to leave - because we are sovereign.
We? No. We voted to become members of the EEC. Not part of the united States of Europe and it took 40 years for the British to be asked again if they were happy with the imposition.


Immigration has been a good thing for us economically and in terms of filling skills gaps.
Who is us? Shareholders that have seen the hourly wages of workers held down in the last 40 years as hundreds of thousands of eastern European immigrants continue to over supply the labour market? Sure. Has it been good for low skilled workers who want to feed their families? Nope.

Old people don't like it because of "all them foreigners coming over here", but as you say, that's just a feeling, it's not because of any facts.
Accusing people who don't agree with you of being racists ...



You won't learn, will you?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 12:36:51 PM by Baby Thork »
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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2020, 01:27:25 PM »
Well let's apply the wisdom of crowds to Brexit.
I've just explained why you can't. It only applies in quite specific circumstances which are not met by an electorate voting in an election.

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we come out with the right result.
In your opinion. But look at the polls over time and they're all over the place.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-on-britains-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote-2/

So had the vote come at a different time we'd have got a different result. Would have have been "right"?
A snapshot of public opinion on a day - especially if it's a pretty close result on a complex issue - is a flimsy basis for taking a course of action the effects of which will last generations.

Ultimately, I don't think things like this should be put to "the public". I remember mutterings back in the day about a vote on joining the Euro and I thought "Don't ask me, I failed economics!". I like to think I'm more intelligent than average (well, objective measures of such things tell me I am), but I wouldn't feel qualified to decide on something like that. If asked to I'd try and read up about it and form an opinion, but I'm not a subject matter expert.

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We voted to become members of the EEC. Not part of the united States of Europe and it took 40 years for the British to be asked again if they were happy with the imposition.

A fairly reasonable point, but I've already showed that till a few years ago very few people felt it was an important issue.

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Who is us?

Us as a country, I take the point about low skilled workers, there is some evidence that their wages have been depressed.

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Accusing people who don't agree with you of being racists

And now you're just straw-manning. You are the one who said that Brexit was about a feeling. Immigration is a factor in that feeling.
I never said it was racist feeling, you've used that word.
People don't like change - younger people have grown up in a multi-cultural society and judging by the way they voted in the referendum they quite like it. It's generally older people who have seen the change who don't like it. Doesn't make them wrong, or racist, but it doesn't make them right either - as you get older you do tend to idealise the days of your youth.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2020, 02:50:56 PM »
https://apnews.com/e48bf51838ced94e2d92adba189b4944

It's weird how this thread is so quiet right now. I was sure a gang of drunken soccer hooligans would have spray painted "IN YUR FACE REMOANERS!!!" all over it by now.


The plan actually works for now and the availability and export price of Curly Wurlys won't get too screwed up so I'm all good. They have a year to update the infrastructures and negotiate trade deals while the citizens get to breathe free and all. They did the easy part of the divorce, saying 'Talaq' three times.

But if it's like American politicians, they may struggle uselessly for a year then have to come up with some short term patch to fight off trade constipation.

All this talk of freedom and sovereignty is getting the Scotts all riled up about independence again. Do they call that Scexit or UKexit?



Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...


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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2020, 04:52:57 PM »
All this talk of freedom and sovereignty is getting the Scotts all riled up about independence again. Do they call that Scexit or UKexit?
It is called indyref2. Yeah ... indyref2. Short for independence referendum number 2. Number 2 because they didn't like the result of independence referendum number 1 just 4 years ago, which was billed as a once in a generation referendum ... until the Scottish government lost.



But if it's like American politicians, they may struggle uselessly for a year then have to come up with some short term patch to fight off trade constipation.
Boris Johnson has a huge majority. Basically, he has no one to fight with. He can do as he likes.

It's weird how this thread is so quiet right now. I was sure a gang of drunken soccer hooligans would have spray painted "IN YUR FACE REMOANERS!!!" all over it by now.
Most people in the Uk are over Brexit. Ignore the vociferous squealing remoaners on Twitter and the mainstream media. They have a British form of Trump derangement syndrome called Brexit derangement syndrome. Look at this poor twat here. He's so invested in his stupid EU trade deal, (not because he needs a deal, he's a TV talking head), but because he thinks poor people need the deal ... and yet hopes that poor people who voted to leave deserve to be bankrupt. The man's a tosspot.




And these are the people left whinging. Everyone else moved on. Leavers shrugged, they have what they voted for. Remainers shrugged. Gonna happen now anyway. Even Tony Blair has got over it.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/01/tony-blair-remainers-must-accept-they-lost-and-now-be-constructive-over-brexit

Its all settled down now. We're over Brexit. Even my new Polish girlfriend has been letting me enjoy her European goods and services tariff free since we left, and we aren't going to deport her for at least 2 years, by which time I'll have moved on anyway.
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