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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2019, 03:01:32 PM »
The EU doesn't restrict your or my freedoms - it restricts the freedoms of MPs

Again, UK governments are already doing that. If anything, the EU has at least imposed some means of redistribution. If the government had its way, all of the UK's wealth would get sucked into London/Panama. The EU forces them into spreading it at least a little bit. Perhaps if we had more trustworthy governments (n.b. I'm not just talking about Tories here, Labour were not better), I'd be more willing to accept that giving them more power is a good idea.

If the British don't like a government, they can vote them out. If we hate Boris, we can get rid of him. You can't vote out Verhofstadt, Tusk and Shultz. 


As for 'The EU protects you from your own government' that's the most ridiculous thing you have said so far. The EU wants to usurp London as a financial capital. They want to introduce all kinds of laws making London uncompetitive with the long term goal being to move the Financial Capital to Frankfurt. They want to take our wealth.

Europeans are not our friends. They are our rivals. They have been for thousands of years. They'll happily kill us over money. You think the smiling Nazis and polite Normans want us to be happy and wealthy? That we should trust the friendly Vikings, welcome the joyous Romans, open up our waters to Spanish fishing Armadas and our markets to Dutch East India Companies?

They are Europeans. They fucking hate us, and the only way we have ever been able to stop them coming here and taking everything we own is by being the biggest, nastiest, most frightening superpower on earth. Nothing else works. They haven't all just changed. It is so naive to think Europeans have our best interests at heart. They don't. And we should keep them at arms length as we always have done ... or better yet, at a swords length.

You don't let down your guard and give your enemies the keys to your kingdom. They'll ruin you.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2019, 03:10:41 PM »
If the British don't like a government, they can vote them out. If we hate Boris, we can get rid of him. You can't vote out Verhofstadt, Tusk and Shultz.
Neither of us can vote Boris out - you can vote May out, and you already pointed out how unlikely that is in reality. And neither of us voted Boris in. We elected a Parliament, and a government was formed within it (and then it collapsed, and a new government formed - no election needed!). A Tory vote means you can get BoJo, May, Cameron, Rees-Mogg, Letwin, Rory Stewart, or god-knows-who. The same vote can lead to drastically different outcomes. The same applies to the EU - we elect MEPs and national governments, they select the "benevolent overlords".

In my opinion, this is a terrible state of affairs on both fronts. I just don't see how UK politics is preferable. We get shafted either way.

The EU wants to usurp London as a financial capital. They want to introduce all kinds of laws making London uncompetitive with the long term goal being to move the Financial Capital to Frankfurt. They want to take our wealth.
Could you point me towards some of these bad laws? I've heard this claim before, but I wasn't able to get much detail.
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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2019, 03:28:30 PM »
You are basically saying "Look Englishman, you should trust the French and Germans."

And I'm saying "Erm, they aren't usually nice to us. I'd rather not, if that's ok".

And you are saying "But they've changed and you are being mean not letting them be in charge of you"

And I'm saying "Being Polish, can you honestly say putting your faith in Germans is historically a good idea?"

And you are saying "But I need you to let the Germans rule you, so that I can work here as a foreigner"

And I'm saying "You're not really my biggest concern here. You can go live anywhere under German-Franco rule if you please. But its not for me".



... I think remainers are naive. I think they forget the lessons of history. Soon the EU wants an EU army, to control our troops, ever closer integration, to eventually control our money and make us use the Euro, our tax affairs, our trade, our economy. They want to run it all. And the more we give, the harder it is to ever reverse as they have all the power. If it goes to shit, there will be no way out.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2019, 03:36:58 PM »
You are basically saying "Look Englishman, you should trust the French and Germans."
No, that's not my intention. Personally, I see no reason to trust the French, Germans, the English, or the politicians of the mythical Svarriorland. I'm also not trying to convince you to change your mind, because I don't even think you're wrong.

And you are saying "But they've changed and you are being mean not letting them be in charge of you"
The UK's membership in the EU doesn't affect my right to work or live here in any way. You're trying to imply a vested interest, and you're completely mistaken about that. In addition to that, I don't think getting personal will help this discussion. It's been very civil until now - please let's try to keep it that way?

... I think remainers are naive. I think they forget the lessons of history. Soon the EU wants an EU army, to control our troops, ever closer integration, to eventually control our money and make us use the Euro, our tax affairs, our trade, our economy. They want to run it all. And the more we give, the harder it is to ever reverse as they have all the power. If it goes to shit, there will be no way out.
Perhaps. But do you think going our own way would make them any less powerful or scary? They're gonna be our biggest neighbour either way.

Finally, I'd like to repeat my request for you to show me some of those laws designed to make the UK uncompetitive. I really struggle to get an answer on that one from Brexit supporters, and having a few examples would really help.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 03:47:06 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2019, 04:36:46 PM »
Wow. OK, there's a lot here but a few thoughts...

If you are a hardcore remoaner, you'll go with the lying ilLiberal unDemocrats.

One of my Remainer friends is planning to do just that.
Personally, I won't because although I'm a Remainer I don't agree with the Lib Dems' policy of revoking Article 50. The referendum result was what it was and no government should just ignore that. Legally they can - referendums are advisory - but there would be riots and it would lead to further disillusionment with our system.

So we fuck up every other election from now until we die until they deliver the thing we voted for in 2016. I'll vote UKIP, Brexit party, Monster raving looney party, independent, whatever is tactical and hurts the main parties the most until Brexit is done. In local elections, European elections, general elections, referendums ...

But you're not hurting the main parties, are you? Because none of those tiny parties are going to get any MPs, or not enough to make a difference. One of the main parties is still going to form a government and you'll have had no say in which.

That would pretty much be the BSOD for our democracy. I think at that point the head of the armed forces needs to march into Westminster and give our democracy a hard reset. I think back to 1653 the last time Parliament started doing whatever it wanted

Ah, the old "another referendum would be undemocratic" argument.
Just have a think about what you're saying. Another vote would be undemocratic.
Where in the democracy rulebook does it say that once a vote is taken the result stands for all time? You know it doesn't say that because you say elsewhere:

And once every 5 years they vote and place sovereignty in the hands of representatives to run the country for them.

Exactly. You don't just have an election and that party stays in power for perpetuity.
Public mood can change, so you have regular elections to reflect that.
Now, a fairly reasonable argument against what I've just said is that when the result of an election is known you don't immediately have another vote to check, the winning party forms a government. But the problem here is the length of time between the Referendum and the delivery of its outcome. A lot has happened in those 3 years, a lot more is known about the potential deal we might get with the EU. There are indications that we might well get a different result now. Is a narrow majority of a one off snapshot of public opinion 3 years ago really a sound basis for taking a long term course of action?
Before the referendum Farage said that a 52/48 split to Remain would be "unfinished business". That was the result to Leave and now it's "You lost, get over it".

However, parliament has decided to ignore what the very people who placed them there want them to do.

Except they haven't, have they? It's pretty much all they've been working on.
They triggered Article 50, they've been working on what our future relationship with the EU looks like. They even got an agreement with the EU about that despite all our red lines, and theirs, which seemed almost impossible to reconcile.
The problem is there is no concensus either in parliament - or amongst the population - about what Brexit looks like. The referendum wasn't voting for anything, it was voting against something. The analogy I always use is it was like voting to move house with no plan about where to move to. I'm guessing you want a hard Brexit. But the last poll I saw suggested that about two thirds of Leavers want that, about a third of people in total.
What Leave meant in detail was not articulated at the time of the referendum.

The only way I see out of this mess is another in/out referendum and a second question about if out is to win do you want No Deal or Boris's Deal (or whatever mess Corbyn comes up with, if he's elected, which he won't be).

Then just bloody get on with it.
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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: A question to our resident Brexiteer
« Reply #25 on: Today at 02:19:19 PM »
This "Thork" seems to know things and have many insights. If Boris Johnson loses power in the Brexit movement, it could create a vacuum that would allow him to rise to power. It could be a dangerous situation.

To an outsider, the architecture of the EU seemed flawed in a lot of fundamental ways. Not just for the (valid) sovereignty concerns or the cross contamination of cultural cooties, but sharing currency between such radically different economies was looking for trouble. It's like a bunch of people sharing one credit card.

Still, I do some business with the UK and it's already a hassle dealing with tariffs and customs and all the usual BS. If the hardcore crash out Brexit occurs, I have no idea how I'm supposed to handle it.

If Thork rises to power, perhaps he will grant the TFES community special import export rights.
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...