#### Tumeni

• 2375
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2019, 12:50:47 PM »
In fact, I didn't look at your drawing, because it didn't help me to express it.

>>> What's the point, then, if you're not going to look at what I draw in order to find common ground?

I just quoted the ellipse in it to express what I wanted to say. I don't know what you mean by the green dot.

It represents where the observer would be in the middle of the ocean, looking out over a spherical cap. The ellipse represents the limit of his vision. Is this what you mean by "the sea line" ?

You can SEE the green dot in the image, can't you?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### proponent

• 51
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2019, 12:58:19 PM »
I don't know English. Please forgive me.

OK.
thank you~

I'm trying to explain to you that what you're saying, "the straight line case," is an incorrect example.
Because if the circle is straight in front and back, then the observer has to be at the same vertical height as the circle, so the front and back will merge into one line instead of two. But it's not going to happen.

The observer would never be at this point, since the observation point is outwith the circle.
Yes, so there's nothing wrong with my description.
I'm trying to say that the situation with the sea line actually proves itself that the sea is a plane, because it can only be a plane, and the sea line doesn't appear to be a circle.
This is an interesting way to use this reply~

#### proponent

• 51
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2019, 01:04:29 PM »
In fact, I didn't look at your drawing, because it didn't help me to express it.

>>> What's the point, then, if you're not going to look at what I draw in order to find common ground?

I just quoted the ellipse in it to express what I wanted to say. I don't know what you mean by the green dot.

It represents where the observer would be in the middle of the ocean, looking out over a spherical cap. The ellipse represents the limit of his vision. Is this what you mean by "the sea line" ?

You can SEE the green dot in the image, can't you?
I can't see the green dots in the first picture you gave me. I'm not color blind.I told you I couldn't see the second one.

I don't really want to know what the first picture you gave me was about.Since I have explained my point of view with my own image, if you want to give advice, please point it out.I'll try to figure it out.

#### Tumeni

• 2375
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2019, 01:15:36 PM »
I don't really want to know what the first picture you gave me was about.

Why the feck should I bother with you, then?

If you're going to wilfully ignore what others do to try to interact with you, then why are you here?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### proponent

• 51
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2019, 01:27:24 PM »
I don't really want to know what the first picture you gave me was about.

Why the feck should I bother with you, then?

If you're going to wilfully ignore what others do to try to interact with you, then why are you here?
Well, I'll just take that as an end. Thank you for coming.

#### Macarios

« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2019, 02:41:13 PM »
I know you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm sure you don't want to know, and I have no interest in arguing with you about the absurdity of your argument.You don't even understand why I'm asking you to level this disc and think about it, and you're not even discussing it with me, so please don't reply to me.

Ok, I won't reply to you, but if you flatten the shield with Flat Earth sea surface then your diameter will just stretch
all the way left and right into straight line. It will look like the center of a soccer field, with the line stretched indefinitely.
Was that what you were talking about?

(In that case your horizon would be much wider than if the Earth was Globe and won't be limited by the visibility on a sphere.
From altitude of 1.8 meters you would see much farther than just 5 km.)

#### spherical

• 214
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2019, 03:01:24 PM »
An "arc" that closes is not an "arc", it is a "circle".
What you mean by arc that closes?
What you mean by "elipse" on a oblate spherical globe or even on FE?  Elipses are 2D objects, have two focal points, a globe only one, an extruded 3D elipse is called oblate sphere or spheroid.

An extruded sphere is called prolate spheroid.

Once over the open ocean, you don't see any arc, impossible, you see a patch of 'leveled' water all around you, limited by the "circle" of horizon due the curvature.

One tip, don't be irritated by people not understanding what you are saying.  If one person can't understand you, perhaps is that person, but it seems nobody can understand what you are writing. Rethink, rephrase.

#### spherical

• 214
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2019, 03:16:37 PM »
If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.

What you really mean by "sea line"?  The horizon?  If yes, it is not a line.  A line is something that connects two points, and it is straight, if not it will be a "curve".

So, rephrasing your first sentence, "If the sea curve is an arc, with high in the middle and low on the sides, it will not close around, It's a simple fact".... and NO, it can close on the bottom.  An arc can be part of a round circle or ellipsoid closed object.   Why you say it can not close around? as a fact... ?   That is what nobody is understanding.  What you mean by that?  By any chance are you saying it will not "close around horizontally"?  If yes, you need to put more words in the text, so we don't get confused.

Your second sentence makes no sense at all.  "If the sea line(?) is straight and the sea surface is a sphere, the sea line(?) will close in a circle".

Again, this is a very difficult (for me) to understand what you mean by "sea line".  What you mean by "sea line is straight"?

The sea surface is not a sphere, never is.  A sphere represents a globe, the Earth's oceans do not make a globe, they are over a globe, the patches of land above the water makes it not a spherical water.   Think with me, when you submerge an orange under water, still a spherical orange, even when you remove from water and it still all wet, still a spherical orange.  The water could be covering a spherical orange, spherical planet and ultimate copying its format, but it is not a sphere.

Rethink and rephrase, mostly about the "sea line".

#### Salviati

• 17
• I don't have a personal text.
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2019, 03:30:10 PM »
Quote
I don't really want to know what the first picture you gave me was about.Since I have explained my point of view with my own image, if you want to give advice, please point it out.I'll try to figure it out.
The arguments of this guy remind me of those of a certain Sceptimatic who years ago flooded the other site with an incredible pile of nonsense.

#### ICanScienceThat

• 328
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2019, 04:18:34 PM »
Dear proponent,
Let me be extremely clear. I do not understand you. You use certain words incorrectly, but it is clear from your pattern that you don't realize this. In order for us to understand you, please DEFINE THESE WORDS:
"sea line"

I THINK "sea line" means horizon. The line between the ocean and the sky. Is that correct?
My best guess is that "radian" means curve. Like when you say, "it's a small radian," you mean "it isn't perfectly straight." Is that right?

If I may attempt to rephrase your question based on my best guesses about what you mean... please tell me is this what you are trying to ask?

If I look out over the ocean, the horizon is a perfectly straight line. The horizon is flat and level. The REs tell me that the horizon is slightly curved, but it looks very flat to me. If it WERE curved, that would mean the edges are slightly lower than the middle. If so, then as I turn in a circle, the horizon must dip lower in the back and raise up again as I come all the way around. It doesn't do that.
I will explain this by making a panoramic photo. Look North at the horizon and take a photo. Now turn East 10 degrees and take another. Go all the way around taking photos every 10 degrees. Now print those photos out and try to line them up. If the horizon were truly curved, we could not line those photos up along a straight line - it would have to curve.

How's that? Is that what you're trying to talk about?

The classic example of this is an orange slice. Imagine an ant standing on an orange. The ant cannot see all the way around the orange. Let's say the ant can see 1 cm in front of him on the orange - because the orange is curved. He can also see 1 cm to the right, 1 cm to the left, and 1 cm behind. Draw a circle on the orange 1 cm in radius (2 cm diameter) with the ant at the center. This line you just drew is the ant's horizon. Now slice the orange right through the line you drew. That slice you just made is everything the ant can see. Look at that shape from different angles to understand exactly what we're talking about.

Is that what we're talking about?

#### spherical

• 214
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2019, 10:34:31 PM »

If I look out over the ocean, the horizon is a perfectly straight line. The horizon is flat and level. The REs tell me that the horizon is slightly curved, but it looks very flat to me. If it WERE curved, that would mean the edges are slightly lower than the middle.

That is the thing... the distance you can see the horizon on open sea is not long, the curvature exist but you can not see it, because you are in the middle of the very narrow and small angle "dome" of water.  The curvature is not on the horizon in front of you, understand that, the curvature is what makes the horizon, FROM YOU to where you can see.  Imagine a million horizontal concentric circles, you are in the middle of the smaller, and this smaller is a little bit above the others, you can't see the curvature, you see the larger circles disappearing all around you.

The image below, the ridges from the center to the bottom are the curvature. If you are small (cat) on the top, those ridges will produce a horizon for you, after that horizon you can not see the roof anymore.  May be the horizon coincide with one of the horizontal circles.  The circles you can see have no curvature to the ground, they make just flat horizontal circles around you, and because you are in the center, you see a straight (leveled line) circle.  This is the same reason why you can not see "curvature" of the ocean, because they are much more pronounced on distance from you to away from you, not on horizon.  The reason is that the far horizon over the sea, even if you are on land, is just a piece of such circle all around you when you are on open ocean, same explanation, can't see a curved horizon, only if you are very far and over, making this ball smaller to see the whole at once.

If the Earth was a flat polished sphere, like a billiard ball, any place you go you would see a vast area around you, perfect horizontal circled horizon, not curved horizontally.

#### ICanScienceThat

• 328
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2019, 10:51:13 PM »
A few weeks ago, I had a good think about the panoramic photo thing. (That's why I used it as an example.) It turns out to be something of a mind bender. We've all seen panoramic 360 degree photos. If the horizon curves (even just a few pixels), how can we take a panoramic photo? Right? That's a good one, honestly. Like say we're up 500 ft above the water on an island. Take a still frame. If you blow it up, you'll see a few pixels of curvature in that single frame. So now take a panoramic photo. How can that work?

Give THAT some thought.

(Don't worry. It totally still works. It's just not as trivial as most of these questions are.)

#### markjo

• Purgatory
• 4738
• Zetetic Council runner-up
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2019, 11:48:38 PM »
Depending on how it's made, panoramas generally aren't much good at showing horizon curvature because most techniques involve keeping the camera perfectly level and physically rotating the camera along the horizon.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

#### proponent

• 51
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2019, 05:37:44 AM »

If I look out over the ocean, the horizon is a perfectly straight line. The horizon is flat and level. The REs tell me that the horizon is slightly curved, but it looks very flat to me. If it WERE curved, that would mean the edges are slightly lower than the middle.

That is the thing... the distance you can see the horizon on open sea is not long, the curvature exist but you can not see it, because you are in the middle of the very narrow and small angle "dome" of water.  The curvature is not on the horizon in front of you, understand that, the curvature is what makes the horizon, FROM YOU to where you can see.  Imagine a million horizontal concentric circles, you are in the middle of the smaller, and this smaller is a little bit above the others, you can't see the curvature, you see the larger circles disappearing all around you.

The image below, the ridges from the center to the bottom are the curvature. If you are small (cat) on the top, those ridges will produce a horizon for you, after that horizon you can not see the roof anymore.  May be the horizon coincide with one of the horizontal circles.  The circles you can see have no curvature to the ground, they make just flat horizontal circles around you, and because you are in the center, you see a straight (leveled line) circle.  This is the same reason why you can not see "curvature" of the ocean, because they are much more pronounced on distance from you to away from you, not on horizon.  The reason is that the far horizon over the sea, even if you are on land, is just a piece of such circle all around you when you are on open ocean, same explanation, can't see a curved horizon, only if you are very far and over, making this ball smaller to see the whole at once.

If the Earth was a flat polished sphere, like a billiard ball, any place you go you would see a vast area around you, perfect horizontal circled horizon, not curved horizontally.

Have you ever thought about distant objects looking smaller?Do you know that the horizon in the distance is just a straight line of objects reduced to a point?If you haven't thought about it, then I have told you these things and you don't have to reply to me.

#### proponent

• 51
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2019, 05:54:40 AM »
Dear proponent,
Let me be extremely clear. I do not understand you. You use certain words incorrectly, but it is clear from your pattern that you don't realize this. In order for us to understand you, please DEFINE THESE WORDS:
"sea line"

I THINK "sea line" means horizon. The line between the ocean and the sky. Is that correct?
correct
My best guess is that "radian" means curve. Like when you say, "it's a small radian," you mean "it isn't perfectly straight." Is that right?
right
If I may attempt to rephrase your question based on my best guesses about what you mean... please tell me is this what you are trying to ask?

If I look out over the ocean, the horizon is a perfectly straight line. The horizon is flat and level. The REs tell me that the horizon is slightly curved, but it looks very flat to me. If it WERE curved, that would mean the edges are slightly lower than the middle. If so, then as I turn in a circle, the horizon must dip lower in the back and raise up again as I come all the way around. It doesn't do that.
I will explain this by making a panoramic photo. Look North at the horizon and take a photo. Now turn East 10 degrees and take another. Go all the way around taking photos every 10 degrees. Now print those photos out and try to line them up. If the horizon were truly curved, we could not line those photos up along a straight line - it would have to curve.

How's that? Is that what you're trying to talk about?
What I'm saying is that they can't be connected in a circle

The classic example of this is an orange slice. Imagine an ant standing on an orange. The ant cannot see all the way around the orange. Let's say the ant can see 1 cm in front of him on the orange - because the orange is curved. He can also see 1 cm to the right, 1 cm to the left, and 1 cm behind. Draw a circle on the orange 1 cm in radius (2 cm diameter) with the ant at the center. This line you just drew is the ant's horizon. Now slice the orange right through the line you drew. That slice you just made is everything the ant can see. Look at that shape from different angles to understand exactly what we're talking about.

Is that what we're talking about?
You don't understand what I'm saying, so you're giving the wrong example, where if the ant sees a circle, it will see an arc, and if it doesn't see an arc, it can't be a circle.
Please try to understand the following words.If the horizon is a circle, if it just looks like a straight line, then one cannot see a straight line in front and a straight line in the back, and they are not yet connected to one straight line, because they are a whole, and they intersect.Then the horizon is not a circle, and indeed it can only be a straight line in any direction, proving that the surface of the sea or the ground between the horizons is a plane, not a sphere.

#### stack

• 1522
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2019, 06:29:35 AM »
What I'm saying is that they can't be connected in a circle

Why? Earth is huge, massive, in fact. Now I'm not running in and saying earth is a globe. Just trying to illustrate how massive earth is, why it may be curved, yet look flat:

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

#### proponent

• 51
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2019, 07:28:48 AM »
What I'm saying is that they can't be connected in a circle

Why? Earth is huge, massive, in fact. Now I'm not running in and saying earth is a globe. Just trying to illustrate how massive earth is, why it may be curved, yet look flat:

I have already mentioned that a line with curvature on the same side in the vertical direction cannot go around to form a closed figure.
As I explained in my last reply to you just now, the horizon just looks straight at any Angle, it can't be a circle.

So what else do you need me to explain to you?Can you take arcs that have curvature on the same side of the vertical direction, go around them and connect them?When two straight lines intersect at two points, they're the same line, they don't go in two directions.I'm just saying the simple truth.

#### ICanScienceThat

• 328
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2019, 08:06:12 AM »
I had a whole long explanation all typed out, but it took so long I was timed out and it's gone.
Not typing it all again.
short version: What does a circle look like if you're right in the center of the circle?
Get a hula hoop and hold it at eye level. Seriously, get a hula hoop and hold it at eye level. Now tell me how it can't be a circle because it looks like a straight line.
It's a hula hoop. It's a circle. Held at eye level, it looks like a straight line from any angle.

#### ICanScienceThat

• 328
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2019, 08:07:49 AM »
proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?

#### proponent

• 51
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2019, 08:34:53 AM »
I had a whole long explanation all typed out, but it took so long I was timed out and it's gone.
Not typing it all again.
short version: What does a circle look like if you're right in the center of the circle?
Get a hula hoop and hold it at eye level. Seriously, get a hula hoop and hold it at eye level. Now tell me how it can't be a circle because it looks like a straight line.
It's a hula hoop. It's a circle. Held at eye level, it looks like a straight line from any angle.
My online friends, I totally understand what you mean by hula hoops.I'll tell you what's wrong with this example. Take a closer look.
When you're standing on an ocean or a plain, you can see a horizon in front and a horizon behind you, right?
When you put the hula hoop completely out of the way, it looks straight, right?
If you don't flatten it out completely, you can only see arcs instead of straight lines.
So do you get it?A hula hoop is a finite size circle that looks like a straight line when completely flat.one line
But the horizon is in front, back, left, right, it's not a line but an infinite number of lines.
It proves by itself that this situation can only be observed in an infinite plane, not in a finite circle.
A two-dimensional graph of finite size can only be connected and closed when viewed at the same height with it, thus overlapping into a straight line.It's only when you look at a plane of infinite size that you can see straight lines in all directions without closing them.