#### proponent

• 49
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2019, 08:46:06 AM »
You don't even understand why I'm asking you to level this disc and think about it, and you're not even discussing it with me, so please don't reply to me.

Perhaps you could explain WHY anyone would want to "level this disc", rather than getting annoyed with others?
What you say is reasonable, and I will explain it to you, so look at the picture you have made, and see if the circle of sea line is a flat circle.
f you do, please review what I said above and think about it before replying. Don't reply without considering what I said. It's not a discussion but a soliloquy.

#### Tumeni

• 1619
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2019, 08:48:23 AM »
Here's how I look at it, with example photos I took myself, and supporting diagram to illustrate the principle.

The Isle of May lighthouse, in the Firth of Forth, Scotland, photographed from onshore, at Pencraig viewpoint, near East Linton.

End EDIT

Closeup/crop from this;

My camera height was 100m
The lighthouse tops out around 73-75m (the light height is classified as 73m, so let's assume the roof above the light glass adds another 2m or so)

IF the land and the seas around this Isle were truly flat, surely my descending sightline through the top of the lighthouse (100m downward to 73m) MUST meet the flat plane of the sea at some point?  Simple geometry dictates this.

My sightline is not meeting the sea. There's only sky behind the lighthouse.

Conclusion; the land and seas, around East Lothian at least, are decidedly not flat.

Perhaps, OP, you could generate some photos or diagrams yourself, to show what you mean?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 09:38:11 AM by Tumeni »
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.

#### proponent

• 49
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2019, 08:54:54 AM »
Here's how I look at it, with example photos I took myself, and supporting diagram to illustrate the principle.

The Isle of May lighthouse, in the Firth of Forth, Scotland, photographed from onshore, at Pencraig viewpoint, near East Linton.

[/img]

Closeup/crop from this;

My camera height was 100m
The lighthouse tops out around 73-75m (the light height is classified as 73m, so let's assume the roof above the light glass adds another 2m or so)

IF the land and the seas around this Isle were truly flat, surely my descending sightline through the top of the lighthouse (100m downward to 73m) MUST meet the flat plane of the sea at some point?  Simple geometry dictates this.

My sightline is not meeting the sea. There's only sky behind the lighthouse.

Conclusion; the land and seas, around East Lothian at least, are decidedly not flat.

Perhaps, OP, you could generate some photos or diagrams yourself, to show what you mean?
I can't see the picture you want to show, because it belongs to Google.So I repeat, if you can understand what I'm saying, please answer my question, and if you can't understand, please explain where you can't understand.The rest doesn't even fit the theme I'm talking about, so please don't mention it to me.

#### Tumeni

• 1619
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2019, 09:21:51 AM »
Here's the first picture, which seemed to have a malformed link at my first attempt

Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.

#### Tumeni

• 1619
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2019, 09:27:38 AM »
I repeat, if you can understand what I'm saying

>>> Therein lies the problem. Perhaps you could generate some photos or diagrams yourself, to show what you mean?

if you can't understand, please explain where you can't understand.

>>> You said earlier, "look at this graph", but you provided no graph. I don't know what you mean by "sea line". I don't know what you mean by "radians" or "vertical radians".  A diagram might help.

The rest doesn't even fit the theme I'm talking about, so please don't mention it to me.

It has relevance, if only to demonstrate how diagrams and photos would help us understand what you're getting at.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 09:39:31 AM by Tumeni »
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.

#### Tumeni

• 1619
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2019, 09:36:55 AM »

Please take this image, copy it to an editing program, and draw upon it what you mean by your "sea line", "radian" and "vertical radian". Then repost it here, so we can see what you mean.

Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.

#### proponent

• 49
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2019, 09:58:44 AM »

Please take this image, copy it to an editing program, and draw upon it what you mean by your "sea line", "radian" and "vertical radian". Then repost it here, so we can see what you mean.

I don't know how to use software to express my meaning, but I think I have explained it clearly.If there's anything in the question that you don't understand, you can make it a separate case, and I'll see if I can explain it.

#### Tumeni

• 1619
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2019, 10:30:21 AM »
... I think I have explained it clearly. If there's anything in the question that you don't understand, you can make it a separate case, and I'll see if I can explain it.

I refer you back to reply #24. To my text in red, highlighted within the quote.
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.

#### Tumeni

• 1619
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2019, 10:43:13 AM »
I don't know how to use software to express my meaning

Doesn't have to involve software. Print the image on paper, and draw on it with pen or pencil. Then scan and upload.

Like this;

Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.

#### proponent

• 49
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2019, 11:30:52 AM »
I don't know how to use software to express my meaning

Doesn't have to involve software. Print the image on paper, and draw on it with pen or pencil. Then scan and upload.

Like this;

i will try

#### proponent

• 49
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2019, 12:00:53 PM »
I repeat, if you can understand what I'm saying

>>> Therein lies the problem. Perhaps you could generate some photos or diagrams yourself, to show what you mean?

if you can't understand, please explain where you can't understand.

>>> You said earlier, "look at this graph", but you provided no graph. I don't know what you mean by "sea line". I don't know what you mean by "radians" or "vertical radians".  A diagram might help.

The rest doesn't even fit the theme I'm talking about, so please don't mention it to me.

It has relevance, if only to demonstrate how diagrams and photos would help us understand what you're getting at.
I'm going to use this ellipse to explain it.Let this ellipse be the sea line that the observer sees from the position on the surface of the sea in the ocean.
In the vertical direction up and down, it cannot have radians that are always in the same direction, or it cannot close, and I believe that's not the explanation.
So it's a circle.But if it's a circle, look at the ellipse I've shown. Even the smallest radians can be easily observed at the left and right ends of an arc, because there, they quickly grow larger and the arc closes.
But no such radians are observed in reality, right?
And if this is an ellipse, imagine what happens when the observer goes around in place to look at this line.
Because of the phenomenon of perspective, every component of this distant line has been shrunk, so this line is also much more than 2 PI times the observer's visibility. So this line can't be a circle, right?
I don't think I'm really saying a complicated thing.

#### Tumeni

• 1619
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2019, 12:09:06 PM »
I'm going to use this ellipse to explain it.Let this ellipse be the sea line that the observer sees from the position on the surface of the sea in the ocean.

So, you're portraying the observer as being in the centre of this ellipse, and you're depicting it from an external viewpoint?
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.

#### proponent

• 49
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2019, 12:15:25 PM »
I'm going to use this ellipse to explain it.Let this ellipse be the sea line that the observer sees from the position on the surface of the sea in the ocean.

So, you're portraying the observer as being in the centre of this ellipse, and you're depicting it from an external viewpoint?
Yes, the observer is perpendicular to the center of the circle.And what I'm expressing is the observer's perspective.

#### Tumeni

• 1619
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2019, 12:20:12 PM »
Yes, the observer is perpendicular to the center of the circle.And what I'm expressing is the observer's perspective.

If the observer is IN the circle, this cannot be the observer's perspective. We're looking at the circle/ellipse from the outside, surely?

You're looking at an eclipse because you're depicting a circle when viewed from slightly above the plane of the circle. If it was edge-on, it would be a straight line.

No?
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.

#### proponent

• 49
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2019, 12:27:23 PM »
Yes, the observer is perpendicular to the center of the circle.And what I'm expressing is the observer's perspective.

If the observer is IN the circle, this cannot be the observer's perspective. We're looking at the circle/ellipse from the outside, surely?

You're looking at an eclipse because you're depicting a circle when viewed from slightly above the plane of the circle. If it was edge-on, it would be a straight line.

No?
Let me ask you this question, if you are really a wise person and not a fool.Is it possible that the sea line ahead is straight and the sea line behind is straight?Can two lines make a circle?If you say it's just a small radian, I've shown you by drawing that you can see radians on either side of the ellipse.

#### Tumeni

• 1619
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2019, 12:34:45 PM »
Let me ask you this question, if you are really a wise person and not a fool.

Let me ask you this question.

Why are you being so effing rude and obnoxious, when all I'm trying to do is understand what you're talking about?

If you're going to write in English, but it's not your first or native language, then perhaps accept that you might not be expressing yourself very clearly.
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.

#### Tumeni

• 1619
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2019, 12:38:53 PM »

The observer is at the top, the green dot, and your ellipse is in purple.

Is this what you mean?
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.

#### proponent

• 49
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2019, 12:43:00 PM »
Let me ask you this question, if you are really a wise person and not a fool.

Let me ask you this question.

Why are you being so effing rude and obnoxious, when all I'm trying to do is understand what you're talking about?

If you're going to write in English, but it's not your first or native language, then perhaps accept that you might not be expressing yourself very clearly.
I don't know English. Please forgive me. That's the problem.
I'm trying to explain to you that what you're saying, "the straight line case," is an incorrect example.
Because if the circle is straight in front and back, then the observer has to be at the same vertical height as the circle, so the front and back will merge into one line instead of two.But it's not going to happen.

#### proponent

• 49
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2019, 12:47:03 PM »

The observer is at the top, the green dot, and your ellipse is in purple.

Is this what you mean?
In fact, I didn't look at your drawing, because it didn't help me to express it. I just quoted the ellipse in it to express what I wanted to say.I don't know what you mean by the green dot.

• 1619