I wanted to ask people about this
« on: June 17, 2019, 06:34:32 PM »
People who think the earth or sea is a sphere tell me this:Sea lines-horizon are arcs with very small radians-curvature.
but,If what they say is true,
I should like to know, from the point of view of a man in the middle of the sea, how, in the case of radians-curvature, the sea lines in all directions close on the spherical surface of the sea?
If this "arc" could be closed, the left and right ends of the sea line should have a pronounced twist at any observer's Angle, because the closed sea line looks like a lying circle that is an ellipse, and the two ends of the ellipse look like this.Isn't it?
I can only imagine this happening when the sea is flat, the sea is straight, and the distant object looks smaller.I really can't imagine how this could have happened if the sea was a sphere and the sea was curved.
If anyone knows, please draw a picture to explain it, although I don't think anyone knows.
By the way,I have read in Buddhist texts that the volcano is because there are six other SUNS at the bottom of the sea.
I'm sure not many people have even heard of it.So I'm just paraphrasing it.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 10:07:16 AM by proponent »

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2019, 08:10:14 PM »
It is normal for a lot of people to have problems with physical multi-dimensional imagination.
Much more people that we think can't really control a tridimensional computer mouse, for example, like navigating inside a 3D maze.
A lot of people can't learn the formulas for a Rubik's cube because of that.

There is a simple test, a rolling tesseract, image below.  In the rolling, try to find an external square made by 4 arms, and then try to follow that same square as it turns inside as a trapezoid and return to outside as a square.  If you can do it, you have a good ability for 3D, if not, sorry, you will have difficulties to imagine yourself floating in the middle of the Atlantic and looking in all directions like on top of a water ball, seeing little around.  And yes, a row boat or a life-saver boat with 2 ft tall would disappear from your view (if floating on a life-saver) pretty easy in less than two miles.  Forget the 8"/mile rule, the water movement, depressions, splashes, make your visible area really short.



About the Suns on the bottom of the sea, hmmm, not sure, myth.  I tend to go with science that explains in a pretty neat way the planet's molten core, temperature, iron concentration, magma, tectonic plates, volcano activities, etc.   If you ever pay attention to some cake in the oven, releasing steam, would understand better volcano activity.


Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2019, 08:46:28 PM »
People who think the earth or sea is a sphere tell me this:Sea lines are arcs with very small radians.
but,If what they say is true,
I should like to know, from the point of view of a man in the middle of the sea, how, in the case of radians, the sea lines in all directions close on the spherical surface of the sea?
If this "arc" could be closed, the left and right ends of the sea line should have a pronounced twist at any observer's Angle, because the closed sea line looks like a lying circle that is an ellipse, and the two ends of the ellipse look like this.Isn't it?
I'm not sure what you mean. I don't see where this "twist" is coming from that you describe. Can you explain further?
As for a picture or diagram of this, I suggest https://earth.google.com/web
If you enable the Gridlines, you get lat & long lines. Are those the "sea lines" you are talking about? I don't see them twisting. Please let me know if I can help further.

Macarios

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2019, 11:02:20 PM »
As for a picture or diagram of this, I suggest https://earth.google.com/web

The web page is trying to blackmail you to use Chrome. Tried in Maxthon MX5, and tried in Edge, no hit.

People who think the earth or sea is a sphere tell me this:Sea lines are arcs with very small radians.
but,If what they say is true,
I should like to know, from the point of view of a man in the middle of the sea, how, in the case of radians, the sea lines in all directions close on the spherical surface of the sea?
If this "arc" could be closed, the left and right ends of the sea line should have a pronounced twist at any observer's Angle, because the closed sea line looks like a lying circle that is an ellipse, and the two ends of the ellipse look like this.Isn't it?
I can only imagine this happening when the sea is flat, the sea is straight, and the distant object looks smaller.I really can't imagine how this could have happened if the sea was a sphere and the sea was curved.
If anyone knows, please draw a picture to explain it, although I don't think anyone knows.
By the way,I have read in Buddhist texts that the volcano is because there are six other SUNS at the bottom of the sea.
I'm sure not many people have even heard of it.So I'm just paraphrasing it.

If you are in the middle of the sea, standing in small boat, your eye is 6 feet (1.8 m) above the water and your horizon is 5 km away in all directions.
From that altitude the Apparent Horizon Dip is 0.0449 degrees.
(If you saw a protractor you know how small is one degree, now imagine how much smaller is 0.0449 degrees. Invisible.)

Looking at your horizon circle from that position is like looking at hula-hoop horizontally around your head at the eye level.
It will look straight wherever you look.

As you go higher, the Apparent Horizon Dip will be bigger. Horizon will be lower, but until you reach some high altitude you still can't see the dip with naked eye.
You need sextant, quadrant, theodolite, astrolabe, ... to measure it.

For example at the height of 1000 feet (330 m) you will have Apparent Horizon Dip of just 0.5 degrees (and your horizon is 67 km away in all directions).
Now your hula-hoop around your head is a bit lower, at the level of your nose.
It still looks pretty straight whichever direction you look at it.

If you go much higher, let's say 40 000 feet (12 000 m), your Apparent Horizon Dip is 3.28 degrees (and your horizon is 426 km away all around you).
Now your hula-hoop is down to the level of your mouth, and you begin to see some slight curviness from that angle, if you look carefuly.

If you go even higher you will begin to see the curviness even better.
From ISS (400 km high) your horizon will be 2470 km away and your Apparent Horizon Dip 18.4 degrees.
Your hula-hoop will now be somewhere around your shoulders and you will clearly see it curved.

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2019, 05:42:25 AM »
I've read the responses from the three above, but you don't even know what I'm saying, so I'll explain it briefly.
If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
When a person standing in the ocean looks at the arc of the circle, it will be an ellipse lying down.You can put a circle or semicircle down to prove it.
An ellipse with even the smallest degree of radians will have distinct radians on the left and right sides.
The above description does not even mention the phenomenon of perspective.
Because of perspective, the total distance of the visible sea line is actually much greater than 2 PI times the observer's visibility, right?It's not hard to understand.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 06:00:02 AM by proponent »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 1250
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2019, 05:56:46 AM »
I've read the responses from the three above, but you don't even know what I'm saying, so I'll explain it briefly.
If the sea line is an arc with a high middle and a low middle, it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
When a person standing in the ocean looks at the arc of the circle, it will be an ellipse lying down.You can put a circle or semicircle down to prove it.
An ellipse with even the smallest degree of radians will have distinct radians on the left and right sides.
The above description does not even mention the phenomenon of perspective.
Because of perspective, the total distance of the visible sea line is actually much greater than 2 PI times the observer's visibility, right?It's not hard to understand.

Yes, it is hard to understand. Can you diagram-out what you're saying? Because I can't make heads nor tails as to what you are trying to convey in words.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2019, 06:04:21 AM »
What I said just now is wrong with the language, so I modified it.Please try to see if you can understand it. If not, please tell me which part you can't understand.

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 1250
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2019, 06:13:33 AM »
What I said just now is wrong with the language, so I modified it.Please try to see if you can understand it. If not, please tell me which part you can't understand.

All of it. Just some sort of a simple diagram that shows what, well, whatever it is you are trying to convey through words.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2019, 06:18:25 AM »
What I said just now is wrong with the language, so I modified it.Please try to see if you can understand it. If not, please tell me which part you can't understand.

All of it. Just some sort of a simple diagram that shows what, well, whatever it is you are trying to convey through words.
I am testing whether I can reply you directly. I am a new user

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2019, 06:27:27 AM »
I'm guessing English may not be your first language. I am impressed by your ability to speak multiple languages, but I fear something is getting lost in translation.
As they say, a picture is worth 1000 words. Draw us a diagram.

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 1250
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2019, 06:39:31 AM »
What I said just now is wrong with the language, so I modified it.Please try to see if you can understand it. If not, please tell me which part you can't understand.

All of it. Just some sort of a simple diagram that shows what, well, whatever it is you are trying to convey through words.
I am testing whether I can reply you directly. I am a new user

That's ok. As ICanScienceThat said, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2019, 07:03:19 AM »
What I said just now is wrong with the language, so I modified it.Please try to see if you can understand it. If not, please tell me which part you can't understand.

All of it. Just some sort of a simple diagram that shows what, well, whatever it is you are trying to convey through words.
I am testing whether I can reply you directly. I am a new user

That's ok. As ICanScienceThat said, a picture is worth a thousand words.
It's hard to draw because you're not with me. It would be easier if you were.
What I'm saying is that If a sea line has a radian in the vertical direction, it will not be able to close around.
If it's straight in the vertical direction, it's not a circle when it's closed around it.
So it turns out that the sea line around the observer on the surface of the ocean can only include a flat surface.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 07:11:42 AM by proponent »

Macarios

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2019, 07:07:02 AM »
I've read the responses from the three above, but you don't even know what I'm saying, so I'll explain it briefly.
If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
When a person standing in the ocean looks at the arc of the circle, it will be an ellipse lying down.You can put a circle or semicircle down to prove it.
An ellipse with even the smallest degree of radians will have distinct radians on the left and right sides.
The above description does not even mention the phenomenon of perspective.
Because of perspective, the total distance of the visible sea line is actually much greater than 2 PI times the observer's visibility, right?It's not hard to understand.

Horizon is a line.
Sea is not a line.
Sea is a surface, going everywhere around you equally.
It's like standing in the middle of Captain America's shield.
Only, that shield is almost flat (and completely painted blue :) ).
If your visible area (the shield) has diameter of 10 km, it will be only 1.96 m high in the center.
It is 0.00196 km.
Without precise instruments you can't see the curve.

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2019, 07:14:07 AM »
I've read the responses from the three above, but you don't even know what I'm saying, so I'll explain it briefly.
If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
When a person standing in the ocean looks at the arc of the circle, it will be an ellipse lying down.You can put a circle or semicircle down to prove it.
An ellipse with even the smallest degree of radians will have distinct radians on the left and right sides.
The above description does not even mention the phenomenon of perspective.
Because of perspective, the total distance of the visible sea line is actually much greater than 2 PI times the observer's visibility, right?It's not hard to understand.

Horizon is a line.
Sea is not a line.
Sea is a surface, going everywhere around you equally.
It's like standing in the middle of Captain America's shield.
Only, that shield is almost flat (and completely painted blue :) ).
If your visible area (the shield) has diameter of 10 km, it will be only 1.96 m high in the center.
It is 0.00196 km.
Without precise instruments you can't see the curve.
I want you to flatten a disk, and then you look at the prominent radians on the left and the right. Can you see that?If you can see it, please think it over and discuss it with me.

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2019, 07:27:45 AM »
It is normal for a lot of people to have problems with physical multi-dimensional imagination.
Much more people that we think can't really control a tridimensional computer mouse, for example, like navigating inside a 3D maze.
A lot of people can't learn the formulas for a Rubik's cube because of that.

There is a simple test, a rolling tesseract, image below.  In the rolling, try to find an external square made by 4 arms, and then try to follow that same square as it turns inside as a trapezoid and return to outside as a square.  If you can do it, you have a good ability for 3D, if not, sorry, you will have difficulties to imagine yourself floating in the middle of the Atlantic and looking in all directions like on top of a water ball, seeing little around.  And yes, a row boat or a life-saver boat with 2 ft tall would disappear from your view (if floating on a life-saver) pretty easy in less than two miles.  Forget the 8"/mile rule, the water movement, depressions, splashes, make your visible area really short.



About the Suns on the bottom of the sea, hmmm, not sure, myth.  I tend to go with science that explains in a pretty neat way the planet's molten core, temperature, iron concentration, magma, tectonic plates, volcano activities, etc.   If you ever pay attention to some cake in the oven, releasing steam, would understand better volcano activity.


I had no problem with 3D vision. When I was 9 years old, my teacher asked everyone what the conical surface unfolding was. I quickly imagined it and told him that it was a fan.
Volcanoes only appear in or near the ocean, don't they?XD

Macarios

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2019, 07:35:57 AM »
I've read the responses from the three above, but you don't even know what I'm saying, so I'll explain it briefly.
If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
When a person standing in the ocean looks at the arc of the circle, it will be an ellipse lying down.You can put a circle or semicircle down to prove it.
An ellipse with even the smallest degree of radians will have distinct radians on the left and right sides.
The above description does not even mention the phenomenon of perspective.
Because of perspective, the total distance of the visible sea line is actually much greater than 2 PI times the observer's visibility, right?It's not hard to understand.

Horizon is a line.
Sea is not a line.
Sea is a surface, going everywhere around you equally.
It's like standing in the middle of Captain America's shield.
Only, that shield is almost flat (and completely painted blue :) ).
If your visible area (the shield) has diameter of 10 km, it will be only 1.96 m high in the center.
It is 0.00196 km.
Without precise instruments you can't see the curve.
I want you to flatten a disk, and then you look at the prominent radians on the left and the right. Can you see that?If you can see it, please think it over and discuss it with me.

You mean "radiuses". (Or "radii" if you use Latin plural of "radius". Both are correct.)

You don't have to flatten it.
Those radiuses will create diameter, the line that connects two opposite sides of the horizon around you through the spot where you stand.
If you extend that diameter on both sides beyond your horizon you will not be able to see it any more, but it will continue dropping around the Earth like a saddle collar around horse's belly.
(That circle will have center in the center of the planet and have its own diameter of 12700 km.)
In that case the big circle around the planet, together with the small circle of your horizon around you, will look like an engagement ring.
And you will be the diamond in the middle of the smaller circle.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 07:48:04 AM by Macarios »

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 1386
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2019, 08:23:46 AM »
Here's a diagram. Wherever the observer is in the sea, no matter what height they are at, they are looking out at a Spherical Cap

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cap



The observer will be above line h, above the surface.

The edge of the spherical cap is equidistant from the observer in all directions.

For an observer somewhere above the surface, on a continuation of line h, he or she will be able to see the blue area, whereas the red will be invisible to them.
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2019, 08:29:46 AM »
I've read the responses from the three above, but you don't even know what I'm saying, so I'll explain it briefly.
If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.
When a person standing in the ocean looks at the arc of the circle, it will be an ellipse lying down.You can put a circle or semicircle down to prove it.
An ellipse with even the smallest degree of radians will have distinct radians on the left and right sides.
The above description does not even mention the phenomenon of perspective.
Because of perspective, the total distance of the visible sea line is actually much greater than 2 PI times the observer's visibility, right?It's not hard to understand.

Horizon is a line.
Sea is not a line.
Sea is a surface, going everywhere around you equally.
It's like standing in the middle of Captain America's shield.
Only, that shield is almost flat (and completely painted blue :) ).
If your visible area (the shield) has diameter of 10 km, it will be only 1.96 m high in the center.
It is 0.00196 km.
Without precise instruments you can't see the curve.
I want you to flatten a disk, and then you look at the prominent radians on the left and the right. Can you see that?If you can see it, please think it over and discuss it with me.

You mean "radiuses". (Or "radii" if you use Latin plural of "radius". Both are correct.)

You don't have to flatten it.
Those radiuses will create diameter, the line that connects two opposite sides of the horizon around you through the spot where you stand.
If you extend that diameter on both sides beyond your horizon you will not be able to see it any more, but it will continue dropping around the Earth like a saddle collar around horse's belly.
(That circle will have center in the center of the planet and have its own diameter of 12700 km.)
In that case the big circle around the planet, together with the small circle of your horizon around you, will look like an engagement ring.
And you will be the diamond in the middle of the smaller circle.
I know you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm sure you don't want to know, and I have no interest in arguing with you about the absurdity of your argument.You don't even understand why I'm asking you to level this disc and think about it, and you're not even discussing it with me, so please don't reply to me.

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 1386
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2019, 08:35:07 AM »
You don't even understand why I'm asking you to level this disc and think about it, and you're not even discussing it with me, so please don't reply to me.

Perhaps you could explain WHY anyone would want to "level this disc", rather than getting annoyed with others?
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2019, 08:40:12 AM »
Here's a diagram. Wherever the observer is in the sea, no matter what height they are at, they are looking out at a Spherical Cap

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cap



The observer will be above line h, above the surface.

The edge of the spherical cap is equidistant from the observer in all directions.

For an observer somewhere above the surface, on a continuation of line h, he or she will be able to see the blue area, whereas the red will be invisible to them.
Your picture works well as an aid.
If you look closely at this graph, if the sea line has radians in the vertical direction, it cannot go around in a closed pattern.
If the sea line is straight in the vertical direction, as it is in this picture, forming a closed circle, then the circle will look like an ellipse like this.
Are sea lines actually ellipses from any Angle?In fact, where are the more and more pronounced radians on the left and right sides of the ellipse?Sea lines in perspective are only 2 π times longer than visibility?