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Offline Tumeni

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2019, 12:00:10 PM »
The issue of a shadow of a mountain cast on the underside of clouds is simply a matter of reflected light from the surface of the earth.

Reflected from what? The surface looks to be in darkness, not in sunlight.
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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2019, 12:07:52 PM »
The issue of a shadow of a mountain cast on the underside of clouds is simply a matter of reflected light from the surface of the earth.

Reflected from what? The surface looks to be in darkness, not in sunlight.
You believe the surface is dark under the lit portion of the sky depicted in the picture?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2019, 12:14:09 PM »
You believe the surface is dark under the lit portion of the sky depicted in the picture?

Looks that way to me.

Like the areas in shadow here (sorry, link to page since Alamy won't allow direct linking to picture)

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-aerial-view-of-sunset-illumination-on-the-talkeetna-mountains-alaska-51952526.html

or like this

https://www.alamy.com/sunset-in-the-mountains-the-slopes-of-the-mountains-with-snowy-peaks-illuminated-by-the-last-rays-of-the-sun-image235121338.html

They're in shadow because they are not in direct sunlight.
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2019, 12:17:30 PM »
You believe the surface is dark under the lit portion of the sky depicted in the picture?

Looks that way to me.

Like the areas in shadow here (sorry, link to page since Alamy won't allow direct linking to picture)

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-aerial-view-of-sunset-illumination-on-the-talkeetna-mountains-alaska-51952526.html

or like this

https://www.alamy.com/sunset-in-the-mountains-the-slopes-of-the-mountains-with-snowy-peaks-illuminated-by-the-last-rays-of-the-sun-image235121338.html
It is obvious the sky behind the mountain is lit.

It is obvious the ground behind the mountain would be reflecting that sunlight at different angles.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2019, 12:42:48 PM »
It is obvious the sky behind the mountain is lit.

- - In which, the original, or one of the samples I quoted?


It is obvious the ground behind the mountain would be reflecting that sunlight at different angles.

But where would the shadow on the cloud come from?

https://www.google.com/search?q=shadow+on+clouds+cast+by+mountain+at+sunset+sunrise&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB691GB691&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwitpZnqo8PiAhVD5uAKHTz9DZcQ_AUIDigB&biw=1152&bih=773
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 12:44:39 PM by Tumeni »
==============================
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2019, 01:10:10 PM »
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
BobLawBlah.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2019, 03:39:25 PM »
The table in your link shows just how irrelevant diffraction is to my question: even with rays parallel to the earth's surface (0 degrees), the diffraction is less than 0.5 degrees. My question asks how the sun can be seen to set if it is at least 3 degrees above the horizon. Also, of course, diffraction would make us see the sun "set" even higher in the sky. According to the table, diffraction would add about 15' my minimum elevation, i.e. the setting sun never "sets" less than 3.25 degrees above the horizon.


The problem is that the website does not address the hundreds, if not thousands, of chaotic variables which exist every day in the atmosphere.

"he underlying problem is achieving a suitable level of accuracy given the complex nature of the Earth’s atmosphere."

-90% humidity will have a different refraction than 0% humidity.
-80 degrees Fahrenheit will have a different refraction than 20 degrees Fahrenheit.
-100 kPA atmospheric pressure will have a different refraction than 20 kPA.
-A 2.8 pollen index will have different a refraction than a 4.1 pollen index.
-400 PPM CO2 will have a different refraction than 300 PPM CO2.
-The troposphere has different refraction than the stratosphere


We have images which were taken at the same time, same day, same location, same altitude, same humidity, same barometric pressure of distant hills.

In one picture the hill is totally visible.
In another picture half of the hill has "set" beyond the horizon.

Whatever optical trickery is causing half of the hill to disappear beyond the horizon could also be happening to the sun in the flat earth models.




In the video below notice how the opposite shore goes from being obscured to visible? The distance between this camera and the opposite shore is much less than the distance between someone on earth and the moon/sun on all flat earth models.





« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 03:42:37 PM by iamcpc »

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Offline stack

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2019, 08:15:44 PM »
The table in your link shows just how irrelevant diffraction is to my question: even with rays parallel to the earth's surface (0 degrees), the diffraction is less than 0.5 degrees. My question asks how the sun can be seen to set if it is at least 3 degrees above the horizon. Also, of course, diffraction would make us see the sun "set" even higher in the sky. According to the table, diffraction would add about 15' my minimum elevation, i.e. the setting sun never "sets" less than 3.25 degrees above the horizon.


The problem is that the website does not address the hundreds, if not thousands, of chaotic variables which exist every day in the atmosphere.

"he underlying problem is achieving a suitable level of accuracy given the complex nature of the Earth’s atmosphere."

-90% humidity will have a different refraction than 0% humidity.
-80 degrees Fahrenheit will have a different refraction than 20 degrees Fahrenheit.
-100 kPA atmospheric pressure will have a different refraction than 20 kPA.
-A 2.8 pollen index will have different a refraction than a 4.1 pollen index.
-400 PPM CO2 will have a different refraction than 300 PPM CO2.
-The troposphere has different refraction than the stratosphere

We have images which were taken at the same time, same day, same location, same altitude, same humidity, same barometric pressure of distant hills.

In one picture the hill is totally visible.
In another picture half of the hill has "set" beyond the horizon.

Whatever optical trickery is causing half of the hill to disappear beyond the horizon could also be happening to the sun in the flat earth models.

In the video below notice how the opposite shore goes from being obscured to visible? The distance between this camera and the opposite shore is much less than the distance between someone on earth and the moon/sun on all flat earth models.



The problem here is variability. To say that "whatever optical trickery is causing half of the hill to disappear beyond the horizon could also be happening to the sun in the flat earth models" is to say the same optical trickery happens every time a sunrise/sunset occurs for everyone on the planet. Yet atmospheric effects are highly variable. And you have to take into account refraction still has to make the sun disappear, seemingly below the horizon for 12 hours straight, like clockwork, everyday without fail or variance. And then allow it to pop up behind you...For everyone. The Skunk Bay time lapse you posted shows things miraging up and down. Not setting for 12 hours nor rising for 12 hours, again, like clockwork.

And as variable as these atmospheric effects are, here are some Skunk Bay time lapses where no atmospheric effects/miraging are present:



And here’s a Skunk Bay Sunrise time lapse that shows no atmospheric effects/miraging:



So what causes the sun to rise or set when no atmospheric effects/miraging are present?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2019, 08:24:23 PM »
So what causes the sun to rise or set when no atmospheric effects/miraging are present?

All observations made are in the atmosphere so any light that any sort of photon detection device gets is under the influence of the atmosphere.



We have images which were taken at the same time, same day, same location, same altitude, same humidity, same barometric pressure of distant hills.

In one picture, with no observed miraging ,  the hill is totally visible.
In another picture half of the hill, with no observed miraging,  has "set" beyond the horizon.



To see something (such as a hill) "set" behind the horizon means the earth is round then what happens when, 40 minutes later, that same something "unsets" and comes back into view? Does that mean that the hill must orbit the earth? I don't think so. Does that observation the earth must have gone from flat to round? I don't think so. I believe that observations means that before claiming that something "setting" behind the horizon is evidence that supports the round earth model only you must first account for (or attempt to account for) most atmospheric variables.



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Offline stack

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2019, 08:46:42 PM »
So what causes the sun to rise or set when no atmospheric effects/miraging are present?

All observations made are in the atmosphere so any light that any sort of photon detection device gets is under the influence of the atmosphere.

We have images which were taken at the same time, same day, same location, same altitude, same humidity, same barometric pressure of distant hills.

In one picture, with no observed miraging ,  the hill is totally visible.
In another picture half of the hill, with no observed miraging,  has "set" beyond the horizon.

Can you share these images? I am unfamiliar with them.

To see something (such as a hill) "set" behind the horizon means the earth is round then what happens when, 40 minutes later, that same something "unsets" and comes back into view? Does that mean that the hill must orbit the earth? I don't think so. Does that observation the earth must have gone from flat to round? I don't think so. I believe that observations means that before claiming that something "setting" behind the horizon is evidence that supports the round earth model only you must first account for (or attempt to account for) most atmospheric variables.

How do you get a 3000 mile high sun to disappear behind the horizon for 12 hours every day for everyone on the planet using variable atmospheric conditions? And do so in a down to the minute predictable manner for every day? Like clockwork. How do you do that for every place on the planet when atmospheric conditions are wildly different everywhere on the planet?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2019, 10:41:52 PM »
Atmospheric refraction probably COULD explain sunsets. Is that the end of the conversation? Like, "Oh well, sure that could maybe work. I guess we're all done here."

If you're serious about this atmospheric refraction idea, I would encourage you to take it further than that. What angle would the refraction have to go? Is that consistent with any existing models? Can we work backwards from this effect to create a new model? Can we make one model that explains both sunsets and ships/mountains disappearing below the horizon? Does this refraction only affect up/down? What if we tried to line the Sun up North/South as well? Could we make a refraction model that does both? Would that model hold up against other observations?

There's SOOOO much more to dig into. So much to learn and discover. How far can you take it?

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2019, 12:36:32 AM »
You believe the surface is dark under the lit portion of the sky depicted in the picture?

Looks that way to me.

Like the areas in shadow here (sorry, link to page since Alamy won't allow direct linking to picture)

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-aerial-view-of-sunset-illumination-on-the-talkeetna-mountains-alaska-51952526.html

or like this

https://www.alamy.com/sunset-in-the-mountains-the-slopes-of-the-mountains-with-snowy-peaks-illuminated-by-the-last-rays-of-the-sun-image235121338.html
It is obvious the sky behind the mountain is lit.

It is obvious the ground behind the mountain would be reflecting that sunlight at different angles.

No, it is not obvious.  You have no evidence.  Besides, if there were any reflection of light off that mountain, you wouldn't have a shadow cast in the shape of the peak.  It would be the object reflecting the light, and therefore reflecting light - and not shadow - in the shape of the peak.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
...circles do not exist and pi is not 3.14159...

Quote from: totallackey
Do you have any evidence of reality?

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2019, 10:34:10 AM »
It is obvious the sky behind the mountain is lit.

- - In which, the original, or one of the samples I quoted?


It is obvious the ground behind the mountain would be reflecting that sunlight at different angles.

But where would the shadow on the cloud come from?

https://www.google.com/search?q=shadow+on+clouds+cast+by+mountain+at+sunset+sunrise&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB691GB691&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwitpZnqo8PiAhVD5uAKHTz9DZcQ_AUIDigB&biw=1152&bih=773
The shadow is that of a mountain.

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2019, 10:37:50 AM »
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2019, 11:14:27 AM »
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.

Yet, you provide no evidence of this phenomenon directly happening. Only pure conjecture and hypothesizing that it can happen.
BobLawBlah.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2019, 12:11:19 PM »
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.
I've gone over this with you before and you still say this. Can you give an example where snow or an ocean has reflected so perfectly to cause a sharp shadow at such a huge distance? I'm very curious to see.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2019, 01:56:26 PM »
So what causes the sun to rise or set when no atmospheric effects/miraging are present?

All observations made are in the atmosphere so any light that any sort of photon detection device gets is under the influence of the atmosphere.

We have images which were taken at the same time, same day, same location, same altitude, same humidity, same barometric pressure of distant hills.

In one picture, with no observed miraging ,  the hill is totally visible.
In another picture half of the hill, with no observed miraging,  has "set" beyond the horizon.

Can you share these images? I am unfamiliar with them.



Here's a video.

with no observed miraging the the smoke stack "sets" beyond the horizon. Based on the round earth philosophy of things "setting" beyond the horizon being an indicator of the shape of the earth then do you see this video and firmly believe the shape of the earth is changing?











Here's another video that should be impossible based on the round earth model.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 02:04:47 PM by iamcpc »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2019, 03:47:07 PM »
Smoke stack time lapse - Low tide/high tide?
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Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline stack

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2019, 08:42:26 PM »
Here's a video.
with no observed miraging the the smoke stack "sets" beyond the horizon. Based on the round earth philosophy of things "setting" beyond the horizon being an indicator of the shape of the earth then do you see this video and firmly believe the shape of the earth is changing?



The operative word is "sets". The sun "sets" everyday (forget 24 hr sun for a moment) for every person on the planet. With the FE sun, we're talking a 3000 mile high, 32 mile wide object that "sets", disappears for 12 hours or so. You could set a watch to it and can predict the time of it's setting for any person on the planet. The smokestack is 400' tall, seemingly bobbing up and down. Not "setting", disappearing behind the horizon for 12 hours. Big difference.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2019, 10:20:46 AM »
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.

Yet, you provide no evidence of this phenomenon directly happening. Only pure conjecture and hypothesizing that it can happen.
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.
I've gone over this with you before and you still say this. Can you give an example where snow or an ocean has reflected so perfectly to cause a sharp shadow at such a huge distance? I'm very curious to see.
I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence it is directly happening.

Sharp shadow?

Nice try.

You just disagree with my interpretation of the cause.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 10:22:37 AM by totallackey »