Offline ChrisTP

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2019, 11:48:38 AM »
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.

Yet, you provide no evidence of this phenomenon directly happening. Only pure conjecture and hypothesizing that it can happen.
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.
I've gone over this with you before and you still say this. Can you give an example where snow or an ocean has reflected so perfectly to cause a sharp shadow at such a huge distance? I'm very curious to see.
I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence it is directly happening.

Sharp shadow?

Nice try.

You just disagree with my interpretation of the cause.
Because your interpretation seems to be baseless assumption while I've studied the effects of lighting and surface materials for over a decade.

I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence of sunlight directly hitting the underside of a cloud, not ambient lighting. I'd agree with you if only there weren't a sharp shadow being cast on the underside as well. I could be wrong but can you provide more examples of this effect or some kind of study into the effect on a similar scale? Like I said, in the interest of knowledge I'd really like to see this kind of stuff. :)
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2019, 12:02:09 PM »
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.

Yet, you provide no evidence of this phenomenon directly happening. Only pure conjecture and hypothesizing that it can happen.
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.
I've gone over this with you before and you still say this. Can you give an example where snow or an ocean has reflected so perfectly to cause a sharp shadow at such a huge distance? I'm very curious to see.
I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence it is directly happening.

Sharp shadow?

Nice try.

You just disagree with my interpretation of the cause.
Because your interpretation seems to be baseless assumption while I've studied the effects of lighting and surface materials for over a decade.
Everyone, regardless of profession, observes directly the effects of sunlight reflecting off of snow, ice, and water, over the course of their lives.

I have seen these effects directly.

Reflected sunlight off these surfaces is certainly capable of casting shadows.
      
I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence of sunlight directly hitting the underside of a cloud, not ambient lighting. I'd agree with you if only there weren't a sharp shadow being cast on the underside as well. I could be wrong but can you provide more examples of this effect or some kind of study into the effect on a similar scale? Like I said, in the interest of knowledge I'd really like to see this kind of stuff. :)
Like I wrote, we disagree on the cause.

I don't necessarily agree with your perception of the shadow, categorizing as it "sharp," but that is neither here nor there.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 12:11:32 PM by totallackey »

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Offline markjo

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2019, 05:08:03 PM »
Everyone, regardless of profession, observes directly the effects of sunlight reflecting off of snow, ice, and water, over the course of their lives.

I have seen these effects directly.

Reflected sunlight off these surfaces is certainly capable of casting shadows.
That may be true, but the crux of the problem is how to get the reflected light at the proper angle for the mountain to cast its shadow on the clouds.  Remember that the atmoplane is not perfectly transparent, so having the light rays travel such a great distance seems rather problematic to me.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2019, 05:29:00 PM »
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.

Yet, you provide no evidence of this phenomenon directly happening. Only pure conjecture and hypothesizing that it can happen.
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.
I've gone over this with you before and you still say this. Can you give an example where snow or an ocean has reflected so perfectly to cause a sharp shadow at such a huge distance? I'm very curious to see.
I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence it is directly happening.

Sharp shadow?

Nice try.

You just disagree with my interpretation of the cause.
Because your interpretation seems to be baseless assumption while I've studied the effects of lighting and surface materials for over a decade.
Everyone, regardless of profession, observes directly the effects of sunlight reflecting off of snow, ice, and water, over the course of their lives.

I have seen these effects directly.

Reflected sunlight off these surfaces is certainly capable of casting shadows.
      
I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence of sunlight directly hitting the underside of a cloud, not ambient lighting. I'd agree with you if only there weren't a sharp shadow being cast on the underside as well. I could be wrong but can you provide more examples of this effect or some kind of study into the effect on a similar scale? Like I said, in the interest of knowledge I'd really like to see this kind of stuff. :)
Like I wrote, we disagree on the cause.

I don't necessarily agree with your perception of the shadow, categorizing as it "sharp," but that is neither here nor there.

Is there any way you can illustrate here how a this shadow can be created through surface reflections?  Do forests, rockbeds, cities have the same reflective properties as water?

Quote from: Tom Bishop
...circles do not exist and pi is not 3.14159...

Quote from: totallackey
Do you have any evidence of reality?