The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: reer on May 11, 2019, 10:54:04 PM

Title: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: reer on May 11, 2019, 10:54:04 PM
I cannot figure out how the sun can rise or set with the version of a flat earth as accepted by this website (the standard monopole flat earth map, https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png (https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png)).

The maps on this website do not contain any dimensions. However, from what I have been able to gather, the earth is a flat circular disc with a diameter of approximately 20,000 km. I get to this number by assuming that the equator is 10,000 km from the North Pole, and the southern ice wall is the same distance from the equator. At least, that is how your published maps look.

I have also seen various figures for the altitude of the sun, ranging from 1,100 km (700 mi) to 6,400 km (4,000 mi). For the rest of this question I will assume 1,100 km as that is the best case for FE; any higher figure makes sunset even more impossible.

Now let us consider how the sun looks for someone at the North Pole. The furthest that the sun can possibly be away from the North Pole is 20,000 km, assuming it ever got near the southern ice wall. No FE maps show the sun that far south, but again, this is the best scenario for FE. Now, if the sun is 1,100 km high at a distance of 20,000 km, the angle between the horizon and the sun is given by simple trigonometry, as follows:

A = atan(1100/20000) = 3 degrees

If we assume the sun sits at an altitude of 6,400 km then we get

A = atan(6400/20000) = 18 degrees

In other words, even in the best (for FE) case, we can NEVER see the sun less than 3 degrees above the horizon. If the observer is farther south, or if we look at the sun at sunset instead of at midnight, the observer will be closer to the sun, and hence the sun will appear even higher above the horizon. For example, if the sun is 4,000 km high, and the observer is 4,000 km away from it (horizontally) at sunset, then the sun will "set" at an elevation of 45 degrees above the horizon.

Hence my question: please explain how we can ever see the sun sink below the horizon. If any of my numbers are wildly wrong, please feel free to show me the correct calculations.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: spherical on May 13, 2019, 07:32:23 PM
Sorry Reer, you are wrong, about the Sun's altitude and viewing angle.

The FE statement for the Sun is 30 km in diameter, 3000 km in altitude.  I made no calculations whatsoever, but it seems FErs use this altitude because it is the only possibility to flat a sphere with a very far away Sun with parallel rays and have the same shadows based on the oblate spheroid model.  Also, the diameter is purely based on apparent size of view (angular size).

Then, based on your assumption, the Sun being over the ICE wall (worst case) and the observer being also over the 180° opposite ICE wall, the rectangle triangle would have a base of 20000 km and the vertical of 3000 km, what gives a (atan(3/20)) of 8.53 degrees.  This would be the lowest inclination (altitude) the Sun would appear anywhere over the FE for an observer.  Anywhere the observer or the Sun moves, the altitude will increase.

The best possible analogy for what is 8.5° of altitude, is looking to your home front door from the curb across the street.   A regular door is about 80 inches tall, a regular city street is about 30 ft wide plus 15 ft from the curb to the door, total 45ft = 540 inches.  It would be atan(80/540) = 8.4°.

So, just walk to the curb across the street and look back to the top of your home front door, that is the lowest altitude the Sun would be anywhere over FE.

Now, thinking about apparent size.  If the FE Sun right over you will have "x" view diameter, and it is 3000 km of altitude, on that viewing experience Ice wall to Ice wall, the hypotenuse will be sqr(3000²+20000²) = 20223 km, the delta size = 3000/20223 = 0.15 or 15%.  Suppose the apparent Sun size right over you is around a US Quarter Coin, at that longest distance it will be the size of your shirt button.  That is big enough to be completely visible and shinning bright on the sky, mostly considering that (according to FE wiki) the Sun is a globe spinning, shinning in all directions, not only as a disc spotting light down, as it was said before.   Notice that according to this size and altitude, vanishing point does not make it disappear at all. It would looks like a street lamp at 150ft (50m) away.

So, where is the night sun?

Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: reer on May 23, 2019, 11:39:15 PM
Sorry Reer, you are wrong, about the Sun's altitude and viewing angle.

The FE statement for the Sun is 30 km in diameter, 3000 km in altitude.  I made no calculations whatsoever, but it seems FErs use this altitude because it is the only possibility to flat a sphere with a very far away Sun with parallel rays and have the same shadows based on the oblate spheroid model.  Also, the diameter is purely based on apparent size of view (angular size).

Then, based on your assumption, the Sun being over the ICE wall (worst case) and the observer being also over the 180° opposite ICE wall, the rectangle triangle would have a base of 20000 km and the vertical of 3000 km, what gives a (atan(3/20)) of 8.53 degrees.  This would be the lowest inclination (altitude) the Sun would appear anywhere over the FE for an observer.  Anywhere the observer or the Sun moves, the altitude will increase.

The best possible analogy for what is 8.5° of altitude, is looking to your home front door from the curb across the street.   A regular door is about 80 inches tall, a regular city street is about 30 ft wide plus 15 ft from the curb to the door, total 45ft = 540 inches.  It would be atan(80/540) = 8.4°.

So, just walk to the curb across the street and look back to the top of your home front door, that is the lowest altitude the Sun would be anywhere over FE.

Now, thinking about apparent size.  If the FE Sun right over you will have "x" view diameter, and it is 3000 km of altitude, on that viewing experience Ice wall to Ice wall, the hypotenuse will be sqr(3000²+20000²) = 20223 km, the delta size = 3000/20223 = 0.15 or 15%.  Suppose the apparent Sun size right over you is around a US Quarter Coin, at that longest distance it will be the size of your shirt button.  That is big enough to be completely visible and shinning bright on the sky, mostly considering that (according to FE wiki) the Sun is a globe spinning, shinning in all directions, not only as a disc spotting light down, as it was said before.   Notice that according to this size and altitude, vanishing point does not make it disappear at all. It would looks like a street lamp at 150ft (50m) away.

So, where is the night sun?

That's why I said I used measurements that gave the best possible case for FE. With other measurements, such as yours, it only gets worse; that's also why I gave the example of sunset at 45 degrees elevation. And it's hard to pin FE down on any real measurements. The 700 miles I quotes comes from their own wiki https://wiki.tfes.org/Distance_to_the_Sun (https://wiki.tfes.org/Distance_to_the_Sun).
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: spherical on May 24, 2019, 06:14:07 PM
Reer, that is the thing.
"Cows are made of milk", now lets try to justify this statement as much as we can, and ignore the unanswerable.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: iamcpc on May 24, 2019, 09:27:49 PM
I cannot figure out how the sun can rise or set with the version of a flat earth as accepted by this website (the standard monopole flat earth map, https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png (https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png)).

Refraction. When the light from the sun passes through a refractive element (such as the atmosphere, water vapor, etc) the observed position of the sun does not match where the sun really is.

The video below demonstrates how observed position of a light passing through a refractive element does not match the real position of the light.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzl-IS8Z5Nc

This video below demonstrates how one can observe a sunset, even without refraction, on a relatively flat surface:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ7K6r6zZLs
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on May 24, 2019, 09:41:33 PM

This video below demonstrates how one can observe a sunset, even without refraction, on a relatively flat surface:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ7K6r6zZLs

The guy in the second video is way wrong. His camera is below the level of his flat surface. It's the equivalent of looking at the horizon while you're standing in a hole.

Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: markjo on May 24, 2019, 09:42:39 PM
The video below demonstrates how observed position of a light passing through a refractive element does not match the real position of the light.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzl-IS8Z5Nc
The problem with this video is that there is no evidence that the atmoplane has the same optical properties as a Fresnel lens (https://science.howstuffworks.com/question244.htm).

This video below demonstrates how one can observe a sunset, even without refraction, on a relatively flat surface:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ7K6r6zZLs
The problem with this video is that it would require the horizon to be well above the observer's eye level.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: stack on May 24, 2019, 09:44:07 PM
I cannot figure out how the sun can rise or set with the version of a flat earth as accepted by this website (the standard monopole flat earth map, https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png (https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png)).

Refraction. When the light from the sun passes through a refractive element (such as the atmosphere, water vapor, etc) the observed position of the sun does not match where the sun really is.

The video below demonstrates how observed position of a light passing through a refractive element does not match the real position of the light.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzl-IS8Z5Nc

This video below demonstrates how one can observe a sunset, even without refraction, on a relatively flat surface:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ7K6r6zZLs

Problem with the sun is that it's 3000 miles high in FET. Even if it were not, and actually on the surface, it still wouldn't "set" below the horizon as shown here:

(https://i.imgur.com/leVAoy4.gif)
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 09:45:15 PM
Refraction seems to make things rise and set here in this Cinema 4D simulation of the atmosphere:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkDqdoINhYI
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: stack on May 24, 2019, 10:56:46 PM
Refraction seems to make things rise and set here in this Cinema 4D simulation of the atmosphere:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkDqdoINhYI

A few things here.

- The video author seems to completely ditch the "laws of perspective" so I guess that is not applicable any more. Is an FE sunset now just a product of refraction?
- The author uses suncalc as a source. You previously stated in another thread that unless we can show the data such a tool is based on and it gets observational data from all points on earth, it is invalid.
- When they do a star trail comparison between CGI and real, they don't look the same.
- What is the actual refraction data used in the program? What are the settings? I can make just about anything happen in a program when I jack the settings any way I like until I get the desired effect.
- As well, now FE is embracing CGI?
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: reer on May 25, 2019, 01:40:24 AM
The posted video of a coin disappearing behind the edge of the table is just mumbo-jumbo. You can clearly see that the camera is sitting BELOW the tabletop. And yes, even if the sun "sets" high up in the sky I will see it disappearing, as long as I'm sitting in a hole, or behind a mountain. But that does NOT work if I'm standing on a level plain, or at the beach. In that case, the sun would "set" while still high up in the sky.

And, even if the sun circling the earth is at ground level - which would be a bit uncomfortable for the people living under the sun ;-), no amount of hocus pocus will make it sink below the horizon if I am standing on a flat earth.

If I understand the video with the disappearing candle correctly, that's only a matter of pointing the camera upwards so that, as the candle moves away, if disappears from the frame. You can tell it is pointed upwards, because neither the carriage that the candle sits on, nor the table, is ever visible, even at the closest distance.

Re the star trail video, I thought FE despises theory, and only uses observation? So why are you using software simulation? Has anyone ever seen the "atmosplane"? Again, I thought you only use observation. Why do the real star trails look different from the simulated ones, doesn't that indicate your simulation is wrong?
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: Tim Alphabeaver on May 25, 2019, 07:35:22 AM
Refraction seems to make things rise and set here in this Cinema 4D simulation of the atmosphere:

There's also tons of distortion as the moon or sun approaches the horizon, which we don't observe. But I guess this is more of a proof-of-principle than an actual proposal for a working model. Are there any more details of what exactly "adding the atmos[plane/sphere]" means in this video?
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: iamcpc on May 29, 2019, 01:29:32 AM

Problem with the sun is that it's 3000 miles high in FET. Even if it were not, and actually on the surface, it still wouldn't "set" below the horizon as shown here:

(https://i.imgur.com/leVAoy4.gif)

Stark,

The problem with that demonstration is that it fails to account for the path that the light from the moon takes before hitting the eye of the observer. Refraction is real and it has a very real effect on what we see. Since we don't live in a vacuum and the atmosphere as well as it's composition can have a very dramatic impact on what we see.

Even in the round earth model when you see the sun "rise" it's well below the horizon. When it comes to optics and refraction what you see is not reality. It's your visual cortex's best attempt at making an image out of a cloud of electrical signals.

Another problem is that the demonstration depicts the earth as a perfectly flat plane when (on all flat earth models that I know of) there are hills, mountains, valleys, and even across the ocean there are waves and swells.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9y5nwok1to
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: stack on May 29, 2019, 01:35:39 AM

Problem with the sun is that it's 3000 miles high in FET. Even if it were not, and actually on the surface, it still wouldn't "set" below the horizon as shown here:

(https://i.imgur.com/leVAoy4.gif)

Stark,

The problem with that demonstration is that it fails to account for the path that the light from the moon takes before hitting the eye of the observer. Refraction is real and it has a very real effect on what we see.

Sure, I agree. But swap that out for the Sun and refraction still has to make it disappear, seemingly below the horizon for 12 hours straight, like clockwork, everyday without fail or variance. And then allow it to pop up behind you. I don't see how variable refraction could do all that for every point/climate on the planet.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: tellytubby on May 29, 2019, 02:40:53 PM
This seems to be related the subject.  Atmospheric refraction as explained by the British Astronomical Association.

https://britastro.org/node/17066
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: reer on May 30, 2019, 04:01:48 AM
This seems to be related the subject.  Atmospheric refraction as explained by the British Astronomical Association.

https://britastro.org/node/17066
The table in your link shows just how irrelevant diffraction is to my question: even with rays parallel to the earth's surface (0 degrees), the diffraction is less than 0.5 degrees. My question asks how the sun can be seen to set if it is at least 3 degrees above the horizon. Also, of course, diffraction would make us see the sun "set" even higher in the sky. According to the table, diffraction would add about 15' my minimum elevation, i.e. the setting sun never "sets" less than 3.25 degrees above the horizon.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: Bikini Polaris on May 30, 2019, 08:09:26 AM
The problem with that demonstration is that it fails to account for the path that the light from the moon takes before hitting the eye of the observer. Refraction is real and it has a very real effect on what we see. Since we don't live in a vacuum and the atmosphere as well as it's composition can have a very dramatic impact on what we see.

Even in the round earth model when you see the sun "rise" it's well below the horizon. When it comes to optics and refraction what you see is not reality. It's your visual cortex's best attempt at making an image out of a cloud of electrical signals.

Refraction wouldn't bend light making it curve under the clouds:

(http://i.imgur.com/O2sefZq.jpg)
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: totallackey on May 30, 2019, 10:41:05 AM
The problem with that demonstration is that it fails to account for the path that the light from the moon takes before hitting the eye of the observer. Refraction is real and it has a very real effect on what we see. Since we don't live in a vacuum and the atmosphere as well as it's composition can have a very dramatic impact on what we see.

Even in the round earth model when you see the sun "rise" it's well below the horizon. When it comes to optics and refraction what you see is not reality. It's your visual cortex's best attempt at making an image out of a cloud of electrical signals.

Refraction wouldn't bend light making it curve under the clouds:

(http://i.imgur.com/O2sefZq.jpg)
The issue of a shadow of a mountain cast on the underside of clouds is simply a matter of reflected light from the surface of the earth.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: Bad Puppy on May 30, 2019, 10:53:42 AM
The problem with that demonstration is that it fails to account for the path that the light from the moon takes before hitting the eye of the observer. Refraction is real and it has a very real effect on what we see. Since we don't live in a vacuum and the atmosphere as well as it's composition can have a very dramatic impact on what we see.

Even in the round earth model when you see the sun "rise" it's well below the horizon. When it comes to optics and refraction what you see is not reality. It's your visual cortex's best attempt at making an image out of a cloud of electrical signals.

Refraction wouldn't bend light making it curve under the clouds:

(http://i.imgur.com/O2sefZq.jpg)
The issue of a shadow of a mountain cast on the underside of clouds is simply a matter of reflected light from the surface of the earth.

Your evidence for this, please. With sources.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: totallackey on May 30, 2019, 11:58:13 AM
The problem with that demonstration is that it fails to account for the path that the light from the moon takes before hitting the eye of the observer. Refraction is real and it has a very real effect on what we see. Since we don't live in a vacuum and the atmosphere as well as it's composition can have a very dramatic impact on what we see.

Even in the round earth model when you see the sun "rise" it's well below the horizon. When it comes to optics and refraction what you see is not reality. It's your visual cortex's best attempt at making an image out of a cloud of electrical signals.

Refraction wouldn't bend light making it curve under the clouds:

(http://i.imgur.com/O2sefZq.jpg)
The issue of a shadow of a mountain cast on the underside of clouds is simply a matter of reflected light from the surface of the earth.

Your evidence for this, please. With sources.
What evidence is necessary?

You see reflected sunlight all around you.

Reflected sunlight is certainly strong enough to cast shadows; in fact, it is strong enough to inflict blindness and sunburn.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: Tumeni on May 30, 2019, 12:00:10 PM
The issue of a shadow of a mountain cast on the underside of clouds is simply a matter of reflected light from the surface of the earth.

Reflected from what? The surface looks to be in darkness, not in sunlight.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: totallackey on May 30, 2019, 12:07:52 PM
The issue of a shadow of a mountain cast on the underside of clouds is simply a matter of reflected light from the surface of the earth.

Reflected from what? The surface looks to be in darkness, not in sunlight.
You believe the surface is dark under the lit portion of the sky depicted in the picture?
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: Tumeni on May 30, 2019, 12:14:09 PM
You believe the surface is dark under the lit portion of the sky depicted in the picture?

Looks that way to me.

Like the areas in shadow here (sorry, link to page since Alamy won't allow direct linking to picture)

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-aerial-view-of-sunset-illumination-on-the-talkeetna-mountains-alaska-51952526.html (https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-aerial-view-of-sunset-illumination-on-the-talkeetna-mountains-alaska-51952526.html)

or like this

https://www.alamy.com/sunset-in-the-mountains-the-slopes-of-the-mountains-with-snowy-peaks-illuminated-by-the-last-rays-of-the-sun-image235121338.html (https://www.alamy.com/sunset-in-the-mountains-the-slopes-of-the-mountains-with-snowy-peaks-illuminated-by-the-last-rays-of-the-sun-image235121338.html)

They're in shadow because they are not in direct sunlight.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: totallackey on May 30, 2019, 12:17:30 PM
You believe the surface is dark under the lit portion of the sky depicted in the picture?

Looks that way to me.

Like the areas in shadow here (sorry, link to page since Alamy won't allow direct linking to picture)

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-aerial-view-of-sunset-illumination-on-the-talkeetna-mountains-alaska-51952526.html (https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-aerial-view-of-sunset-illumination-on-the-talkeetna-mountains-alaska-51952526.html)

or like this

https://www.alamy.com/sunset-in-the-mountains-the-slopes-of-the-mountains-with-snowy-peaks-illuminated-by-the-last-rays-of-the-sun-image235121338.html (https://www.alamy.com/sunset-in-the-mountains-the-slopes-of-the-mountains-with-snowy-peaks-illuminated-by-the-last-rays-of-the-sun-image235121338.html)
It is obvious the sky behind the mountain is lit.

It is obvious the ground behind the mountain would be reflecting that sunlight at different angles.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: Tumeni on May 30, 2019, 12:42:48 PM
It is obvious the sky behind the mountain is lit.

- - In which, the original, or one of the samples I quoted?

It is obvious the ground behind the mountain would be reflecting that sunlight at different angles.

But where would the shadow on the cloud come from?

https://www.google.com/search?q=shadow+on+clouds+cast+by+mountain+at+sunset+sunrise&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB691GB691&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwitpZnqo8PiAhVD5uAKHTz9DZcQ_AUIDigB&biw=1152&bih=773 (https://www.google.com/search?q=shadow+on+clouds+cast+by+mountain+at+sunset+sunrise&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB691GB691&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwitpZnqo8PiAhVD5uAKHTz9DZcQ_AUIDigB&biw=1152&bih=773)
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on May 30, 2019, 01:10:10 PM
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: iamcpc on May 30, 2019, 03:39:25 PM
The table in your link shows just how irrelevant diffraction is to my question: even with rays parallel to the earth's surface (0 degrees), the diffraction is less than 0.5 degrees. My question asks how the sun can be seen to set if it is at least 3 degrees above the horizon. Also, of course, diffraction would make us see the sun "set" even higher in the sky. According to the table, diffraction would add about 15' my minimum elevation, i.e. the setting sun never "sets" less than 3.25 degrees above the horizon.

The problem is that the website does not address the hundreds, if not thousands, of chaotic variables which exist every day in the atmosphere.

"he underlying problem is achieving a suitable level of accuracy given the complex nature of the Earth’s atmosphere."

-90% humidity will have a different refraction than 0% humidity.
-80 degrees Fahrenheit will have a different refraction than 20 degrees Fahrenheit.
-100 kPA atmospheric pressure will have a different refraction than 20 kPA.
-A 2.8 pollen index will have different a refraction than a 4.1 pollen index.
-400 PPM CO2 will have a different refraction than 300 PPM CO2.
-The troposphere has different refraction than the stratosphere

We have images which were taken at the same time, same day, same location, same altitude, same humidity, same barometric pressure of distant hills.

In one picture the hill is totally visible.
In another picture half of the hill has "set" beyond the horizon.

Whatever optical trickery is causing half of the hill to disappear beyond the horizon could also be happening to the sun in the flat earth models.

In the video below notice how the opposite shore goes from being obscured to visible? The distance between this camera and the opposite shore is much less than the distance between someone on earth and the moon/sun on all flat earth models.

https://youtu.be/GyLzdQFU3Og

Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: stack on May 30, 2019, 08:15:44 PM
The table in your link shows just how irrelevant diffraction is to my question: even with rays parallel to the earth's surface (0 degrees), the diffraction is less than 0.5 degrees. My question asks how the sun can be seen to set if it is at least 3 degrees above the horizon. Also, of course, diffraction would make us see the sun "set" even higher in the sky. According to the table, diffraction would add about 15' my minimum elevation, i.e. the setting sun never "sets" less than 3.25 degrees above the horizon.

The problem is that the website does not address the hundreds, if not thousands, of chaotic variables which exist every day in the atmosphere.

"he underlying problem is achieving a suitable level of accuracy given the complex nature of the Earth’s atmosphere."

-90% humidity will have a different refraction than 0% humidity.
-80 degrees Fahrenheit will have a different refraction than 20 degrees Fahrenheit.
-100 kPA atmospheric pressure will have a different refraction than 20 kPA.
-A 2.8 pollen index will have different a refraction than a 4.1 pollen index.
-400 PPM CO2 will have a different refraction than 300 PPM CO2.
-The troposphere has different refraction than the stratosphere

We have images which were taken at the same time, same day, same location, same altitude, same humidity, same barometric pressure of distant hills.

In one picture the hill is totally visible.
In another picture half of the hill has "set" beyond the horizon.

Whatever optical trickery is causing half of the hill to disappear beyond the horizon could also be happening to the sun in the flat earth models.

In the video below notice how the opposite shore goes from being obscured to visible? The distance between this camera and the opposite shore is much less than the distance between someone on earth and the moon/sun on all flat earth models.

https://youtu.be/GyLzdQFU3Og

The problem here is variability. To say that "whatever optical trickery is causing half of the hill to disappear beyond the horizon could also be happening to the sun in the flat earth models" is to say the same optical trickery happens every time a sunrise/sunset occurs for everyone on the planet. Yet atmospheric effects are highly variable. And you have to take into account refraction still has to make the sun disappear, seemingly below the horizon for 12 hours straight, like clockwork, everyday without fail or variance. And then allow it to pop up behind you...For everyone. The Skunk Bay time lapse you posted shows things miraging up and down. Not setting for 12 hours nor rising for 12 hours, again, like clockwork.

And as variable as these atmospheric effects are, here are some Skunk Bay time lapses where no atmospheric effects/miraging are present:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPZCQus4MJc

And here’s a Skunk Bay Sunrise time lapse that shows no atmospheric effects/miraging:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtPCHJO-trE

So what causes the sun to rise or set when no atmospheric effects/miraging are present?
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: iamcpc on May 30, 2019, 08:24:23 PM
So what causes the sun to rise or set when no atmospheric effects/miraging are present?

All observations made are in the atmosphere so any light that any sort of photon detection device gets is under the influence of the atmosphere.

We have images which were taken at the same time, same day, same location, same altitude, same humidity, same barometric pressure of distant hills.

In one picture, with no observed miraging ,  the hill is totally visible.
In another picture half of the hill, with no observed miraging,  has "set" beyond the horizon.

To see something (such as a hill) "set" behind the horizon means the earth is round then what happens when, 40 minutes later, that same something "unsets" and comes back into view? Does that mean that the hill must orbit the earth? I don't think so. Does that observation the earth must have gone from flat to round? I don't think so. I believe that observations means that before claiming that something "setting" behind the horizon is evidence that supports the round earth model only you must first account for (or attempt to account for) most atmospheric variables.

Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: stack on May 30, 2019, 08:46:42 PM
So what causes the sun to rise or set when no atmospheric effects/miraging are present?

All observations made are in the atmosphere so any light that any sort of photon detection device gets is under the influence of the atmosphere.

We have images which were taken at the same time, same day, same location, same altitude, same humidity, same barometric pressure of distant hills.

In one picture, with no observed miraging ,  the hill is totally visible.
In another picture half of the hill, with no observed miraging,  has "set" beyond the horizon.

Can you share these images? I am unfamiliar with them.

To see something (such as a hill) "set" behind the horizon means the earth is round then what happens when, 40 minutes later, that same something "unsets" and comes back into view? Does that mean that the hill must orbit the earth? I don't think so. Does that observation the earth must have gone from flat to round? I don't think so. I believe that observations means that before claiming that something "setting" behind the horizon is evidence that supports the round earth model only you must first account for (or attempt to account for) most atmospheric variables.

How do you get a 3000 mile high sun to disappear behind the horizon for 12 hours every day for everyone on the planet using variable atmospheric conditions? And do so in a down to the minute predictable manner for every day? Like clockwork. How do you do that for every place on the planet when atmospheric conditions are wildly different everywhere on the planet?
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 30, 2019, 10:41:52 PM
Atmospheric refraction probably COULD explain sunsets. Is that the end of the conversation? Like, "Oh well, sure that could maybe work. I guess we're all done here."

If you're serious about this atmospheric refraction idea, I would encourage you to take it further than that. What angle would the refraction have to go? Is that consistent with any existing models? Can we work backwards from this effect to create a new model? Can we make one model that explains both sunsets and ships/mountains disappearing below the horizon? Does this refraction only affect up/down? What if we tried to line the Sun up North/South as well? Could we make a refraction model that does both? Would that model hold up against other observations?

There's SOOOO much more to dig into. So much to learn and discover. How far can you take it?
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: Bad Puppy on May 31, 2019, 12:36:32 AM
You believe the surface is dark under the lit portion of the sky depicted in the picture?

Looks that way to me.

Like the areas in shadow here (sorry, link to page since Alamy won't allow direct linking to picture)

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-aerial-view-of-sunset-illumination-on-the-talkeetna-mountains-alaska-51952526.html (https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-aerial-view-of-sunset-illumination-on-the-talkeetna-mountains-alaska-51952526.html)

or like this

https://www.alamy.com/sunset-in-the-mountains-the-slopes-of-the-mountains-with-snowy-peaks-illuminated-by-the-last-rays-of-the-sun-image235121338.html (https://www.alamy.com/sunset-in-the-mountains-the-slopes-of-the-mountains-with-snowy-peaks-illuminated-by-the-last-rays-of-the-sun-image235121338.html)
It is obvious the sky behind the mountain is lit.

It is obvious the ground behind the mountain would be reflecting that sunlight at different angles.

No, it is not obvious.  You have no evidence.  Besides, if there were any reflection of light off that mountain, you wouldn't have a shadow cast in the shape of the peak.  It would be the object reflecting the light, and therefore reflecting light - and not shadow - in the shape of the peak.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: totallackey on May 31, 2019, 10:34:10 AM
It is obvious the sky behind the mountain is lit.

- - In which, the original, or one of the samples I quoted?

It is obvious the ground behind the mountain would be reflecting that sunlight at different angles.

But where would the shadow on the cloud come from?

https://www.google.com/search?q=shadow+on+clouds+cast+by+mountain+at+sunset+sunrise&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB691GB691&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwitpZnqo8PiAhVD5uAKHTz9DZcQ_AUIDigB&biw=1152&bih=773 (https://www.google.com/search?q=shadow+on+clouds+cast+by+mountain+at+sunset+sunrise&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB691GB691&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwitpZnqo8PiAhVD5uAKHTz9DZcQ_AUIDigB&biw=1152&bih=773)
The shadow is that of a mountain.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: totallackey on May 31, 2019, 10:37:50 AM
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on May 31, 2019, 11:14:27 AM
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.

Yet, you provide no evidence of this phenomenon directly happening. Only pure conjecture and hypothesizing that it can happen.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: ChrisTP on May 31, 2019, 12:11:19 PM
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.
I've gone over this with you before and you still say this. Can you give an example where snow or an ocean has reflected so perfectly to cause a sharp shadow at such a huge distance? I'm very curious to see.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: iamcpc on May 31, 2019, 01:56:26 PM
So what causes the sun to rise or set when no atmospheric effects/miraging are present?

All observations made are in the atmosphere so any light that any sort of photon detection device gets is under the influence of the atmosphere.

We have images which were taken at the same time, same day, same location, same altitude, same humidity, same barometric pressure of distant hills.

In one picture, with no observed miraging ,  the hill is totally visible.
In another picture half of the hill, with no observed miraging,  has "set" beyond the horizon.

Can you share these images? I am unfamiliar with them.

Here's a video.

with no observed miraging the the smoke stack "sets" beyond the horizon. Based on the round earth philosophy of things "setting" beyond the horizon being an indicator of the shape of the earth then do you see this video and firmly believe the shape of the earth is changing?

https://youtu.be/r49yVaoVE8M

Here's another video that should be impossible based on the round earth model.
https://youtu.be/r8TsCPMCR_s
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: Tumeni on May 31, 2019, 03:47:07 PM
Smoke stack time lapse - Low tide/high tide?
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: stack on May 31, 2019, 08:42:26 PM
Here's a video.
with no observed miraging the the smoke stack "sets" beyond the horizon. Based on the round earth philosophy of things "setting" beyond the horizon being an indicator of the shape of the earth then do you see this video and firmly believe the shape of the earth is changing?

https://youtu.be/r49yVaoVE8M

The operative word is "sets". The sun "sets" everyday (forget 24 hr sun for a moment) for every person on the planet. With the FE sun, we're talking a 3000 mile high, 32 mile wide object that "sets", disappears for 12 hours or so. You could set a watch to it and can predict the time of it's setting for any person on the planet. The smokestack is 400' tall, seemingly bobbing up and down. Not "setting", disappearing behind the horizon for 12 hours. Big difference.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: totallackey on June 03, 2019, 10:20:46 AM
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.

Yet, you provide no evidence of this phenomenon directly happening. Only pure conjecture and hypothesizing that it can happen.
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.
I've gone over this with you before and you still say this. Can you give an example where snow or an ocean has reflected so perfectly to cause a sharp shadow at such a huge distance? I'm very curious to see.
I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence it is directly happening.

Sharp shadow?

Nice try.

You just disagree with my interpretation of the cause.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: ChrisTP on June 03, 2019, 11:48:38 AM
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.

Yet, you provide no evidence of this phenomenon directly happening. Only pure conjecture and hypothesizing that it can happen.
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.
I've gone over this with you before and you still say this. Can you give an example where snow or an ocean has reflected so perfectly to cause a sharp shadow at such a huge distance? I'm very curious to see.
I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence it is directly happening.

Sharp shadow?

Nice try.

You just disagree with my interpretation of the cause.
Because your interpretation seems to be baseless assumption while I've studied the effects of lighting and surface materials for over a decade.

I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence of sunlight directly hitting the underside of a cloud, not ambient lighting. I'd agree with you if only there weren't a sharp shadow being cast on the underside as well. I could be wrong but can you provide more examples of this effect or some kind of study into the effect on a similar scale? Like I said, in the interest of knowledge I'd really like to see this kind of stuff. :)
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: totallackey on June 03, 2019, 12:02:09 PM
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.

Yet, you provide no evidence of this phenomenon directly happening. Only pure conjecture and hypothesizing that it can happen.
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.
I've gone over this with you before and you still say this. Can you give an example where snow or an ocean has reflected so perfectly to cause a sharp shadow at such a huge distance? I'm very curious to see.
I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence it is directly happening.

Sharp shadow?

Nice try.

You just disagree with my interpretation of the cause.
Because your interpretation seems to be baseless assumption while I've studied the effects of lighting and surface materials for over a decade.
Everyone, regardless of profession, observes directly the effects of sunlight reflecting off of snow, ice, and water, over the course of their lives.

I have seen these effects directly.

Reflected sunlight off these surfaces is certainly capable of casting shadows.

I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence of sunlight directly hitting the underside of a cloud, not ambient lighting. I'd agree with you if only there weren't a sharp shadow being cast on the underside as well. I could be wrong but can you provide more examples of this effect or some kind of study into the effect on a similar scale? Like I said, in the interest of knowledge I'd really like to see this kind of stuff. :)
Like I wrote, we disagree on the cause.

I don't necessarily agree with your perception of the shadow, categorizing as it "sharp," but that is neither here nor there.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: markjo on June 03, 2019, 05:08:03 PM
Everyone, regardless of profession, observes directly the effects of sunlight reflecting off of snow, ice, and water, over the course of their lives.

I have seen these effects directly.

Reflected sunlight off these surfaces is certainly capable of casting shadows.
That may be true, but the crux of the problem is how to get the reflected light at the proper angle for the mountain to cast its shadow on the clouds.  Remember that the atmoplane is not perfectly transparent, so having the light rays travel such a great distance seems rather problematic to me.
Title: Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
Post by: Bad Puppy on June 03, 2019, 05:29:00 PM
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.

Yet, you provide no evidence of this phenomenon directly happening. Only pure conjecture and hypothesizing that it can happen.
This same depiction of reflected sunlight has been discussed before. No one (not even Totallackey) provided real evidence of the sun casting a shadow from a reflection off of a surface on to the bottom surface of a cloud.  All he has done is provide a false equivalency. To cast a reflected shadow you would need a specular reflection - such as a mirror or water. Most surfaces provide only diffuse reflection - grass, trees, most things in nature. He once even suggested that there is possibly a body of water that cast that shadow without providing one shred of evidence.
Rainier is surrounded by numerous bodies of water and is located in the middle of the snowiest place in the contiguous 48.

False equivalency your tuckus...

Plenty of highly reflective surfaces that could easily generate specular reflection.
I've gone over this with you before and you still say this. Can you give an example where snow or an ocean has reflected so perfectly to cause a sharp shadow at such a huge distance? I'm very curious to see.
I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence it is directly happening.

Sharp shadow?

Nice try.

You just disagree with my interpretation of the cause.
Because your interpretation seems to be baseless assumption while I've studied the effects of lighting and surface materials for over a decade.
Everyone, regardless of profession, observes directly the effects of sunlight reflecting off of snow, ice, and water, over the course of their lives.

I have seen these effects directly.

Reflected sunlight off these surfaces is certainly capable of casting shadows.

I would state a shadow on the underside of a cloud is evidence of sunlight directly hitting the underside of a cloud, not ambient lighting. I'd agree with you if only there weren't a sharp shadow being cast on the underside as well. I could be wrong but can you provide more examples of this effect or some kind of study into the effect on a similar scale? Like I said, in the interest of knowledge I'd really like to see this kind of stuff. :)
Like I wrote, we disagree on the cause.

I don't necessarily agree with your perception of the shadow, categorizing as it "sharp," but that is neither here nor there.

Is there any way you can illustrate here how a this shadow can be created through surface reflections?  Do forests, rockbeds, cities have the same reflective properties as water?

(https://i.imgur.com/JHEreHI.jpg)