Offline reer

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How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« on: May 11, 2019, 10:54:04 PM »
I cannot figure out how the sun can rise or set with the version of a flat earth as accepted by this website (the standard monopole flat earth map, https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png).

The maps on this website do not contain any dimensions. However, from what I have been able to gather, the earth is a flat circular disc with a diameter of approximately 20,000 km. I get to this number by assuming that the equator is 10,000 km from the North Pole, and the southern ice wall is the same distance from the equator. At least, that is how your published maps look.

I have also seen various figures for the altitude of the sun, ranging from 1,100 km (700 mi) to 6,400 km (4,000 mi). For the rest of this question I will assume 1,100 km as that is the best case for FE; any higher figure makes sunset even more impossible.

Now let us consider how the sun looks for someone at the North Pole. The furthest that the sun can possibly be away from the North Pole is 20,000 km, assuming it ever got near the southern ice wall. No FE maps show the sun that far south, but again, this is the best scenario for FE. Now, if the sun is 1,100 km high at a distance of 20,000 km, the angle between the horizon and the sun is given by simple trigonometry, as follows:

A = atan(1100/20000) = 3 degrees

If we assume the sun sits at an altitude of 6,400 km then we get

A = atan(6400/20000) = 18 degrees

In other words, even in the best (for FE) case, we can NEVER see the sun less than 3 degrees above the horizon. If the observer is farther south, or if we look at the sun at sunset instead of at midnight, the observer will be closer to the sun, and hence the sun will appear even higher above the horizon. For example, if the sun is 4,000 km high, and the observer is 4,000 km away from it (horizontally) at sunset, then the sun will "set" at an elevation of 45 degrees above the horizon.

Hence my question: please explain how we can ever see the sun sink below the horizon. If any of my numbers are wildly wrong, please feel free to show me the correct calculations.

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2019, 07:32:23 PM »
Sorry Reer, you are wrong, about the Sun's altitude and viewing angle.

The FE statement for the Sun is 30 km in diameter, 3000 km in altitude.  I made no calculations whatsoever, but it seems FErs use this altitude because it is the only possibility to flat a sphere with a very far away Sun with parallel rays and have the same shadows based on the oblate spheroid model.  Also, the diameter is purely based on apparent size of view (angular size).

Then, based on your assumption, the Sun being over the ICE wall (worst case) and the observer being also over the 180° opposite ICE wall, the rectangle triangle would have a base of 20000 km and the vertical of 3000 km, what gives a (atan(3/20)) of 8.53 degrees.  This would be the lowest inclination (altitude) the Sun would appear anywhere over the FE for an observer.  Anywhere the observer or the Sun moves, the altitude will increase.   

The best possible analogy for what is 8.5° of altitude, is looking to your home front door from the curb across the street.   A regular door is about 80 inches tall, a regular city street is about 30 ft wide plus 15 ft from the curb to the door, total 45ft = 540 inches.  It would be atan(80/540) = 8.4°.

So, just walk to the curb across the street and look back to the top of your home front door, that is the lowest altitude the Sun would be anywhere over FE.

Now, thinking about apparent size.  If the FE Sun right over you will have "x" view diameter, and it is 3000 km of altitude, on that viewing experience Ice wall to Ice wall, the hypotenuse will be sqr(3000²+20000²) = 20223 km, the delta size = 3000/20223 = 0.15 or 15%.  Suppose the apparent Sun size right over you is around a US Quarter Coin, at that longest distance it will be the size of your shirt button.  That is big enough to be completely visible and shinning bright on the sky, mostly considering that (according to FE wiki) the Sun is a globe spinning, shinning in all directions, not only as a disc spotting light down, as it was said before.   Notice that according to this size and altitude, vanishing point does not make it disappear at all. It would looks like a street lamp at 150ft (50m) away.

So, where is the night sun?
 
 

Offline reer

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2019, 11:39:15 PM »
Sorry Reer, you are wrong, about the Sun's altitude and viewing angle.

The FE statement for the Sun is 30 km in diameter, 3000 km in altitude.  I made no calculations whatsoever, but it seems FErs use this altitude because it is the only possibility to flat a sphere with a very far away Sun with parallel rays and have the same shadows based on the oblate spheroid model.  Also, the diameter is purely based on apparent size of view (angular size).

Then, based on your assumption, the Sun being over the ICE wall (worst case) and the observer being also over the 180° opposite ICE wall, the rectangle triangle would have a base of 20000 km and the vertical of 3000 km, what gives a (atan(3/20)) of 8.53 degrees.  This would be the lowest inclination (altitude) the Sun would appear anywhere over the FE for an observer.  Anywhere the observer or the Sun moves, the altitude will increase.   

The best possible analogy for what is 8.5° of altitude, is looking to your home front door from the curb across the street.   A regular door is about 80 inches tall, a regular city street is about 30 ft wide plus 15 ft from the curb to the door, total 45ft = 540 inches.  It would be atan(80/540) = 8.4°.

So, just walk to the curb across the street and look back to the top of your home front door, that is the lowest altitude the Sun would be anywhere over FE.

Now, thinking about apparent size.  If the FE Sun right over you will have "x" view diameter, and it is 3000 km of altitude, on that viewing experience Ice wall to Ice wall, the hypotenuse will be sqr(3000²+20000²) = 20223 km, the delta size = 3000/20223 = 0.15 or 15%.  Suppose the apparent Sun size right over you is around a US Quarter Coin, at that longest distance it will be the size of your shirt button.  That is big enough to be completely visible and shinning bright on the sky, mostly considering that (according to FE wiki) the Sun is a globe spinning, shinning in all directions, not only as a disc spotting light down, as it was said before.   Notice that according to this size and altitude, vanishing point does not make it disappear at all. It would looks like a street lamp at 150ft (50m) away.

So, where is the night sun?
 
That's why I said I used measurements that gave the best possible case for FE. With other measurements, such as yours, it only gets worse; that's also why I gave the example of sunset at 45 degrees elevation. And it's hard to pin FE down on any real measurements. The 700 miles I quotes comes from their own wiki https://wiki.tfes.org/Distance_to_the_Sun.

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2019, 06:14:07 PM »
Reer, that is the thing.
"Cows are made of milk", now lets try to justify this statement as much as we can, and ignore the unanswerable.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2019, 09:27:49 PM »
I cannot figure out how the sun can rise or set with the version of a flat earth as accepted by this website (the standard monopole flat earth map, https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png).


Refraction. When the light from the sun passes through a refractive element (such as the atmosphere, water vapor, etc) the observed position of the sun does not match where the sun really is.

The video below demonstrates how observed position of a light passing through a refractive element does not match the real position of the light.




This video below demonstrates how one can observe a sunset, even without refraction, on a relatively flat surface:


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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2019, 09:41:33 PM »

This video below demonstrates how one can observe a sunset, even without refraction, on a relatively flat surface:





The guy in the second video is way wrong. His camera is below the level of his flat surface. It's the equivalent of looking at the horizon while you're standing in a hole.

Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

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Offline markjo

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2019, 09:42:39 PM »
The video below demonstrates how observed position of a light passing through a refractive element does not match the real position of the light.

The problem with this video is that there is no evidence that the atmoplane has the same optical properties as a Fresnel lens.


This video below demonstrates how one can observe a sunset, even without refraction, on a relatively flat surface:

The problem with this video is that it would require the horizon to be well above the observer's eye level.
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Offline stack

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2019, 09:44:07 PM »
I cannot figure out how the sun can rise or set with the version of a flat earth as accepted by this website (the standard monopole flat earth map, https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png).


Refraction. When the light from the sun passes through a refractive element (such as the atmosphere, water vapor, etc) the observed position of the sun does not match where the sun really is.

The video below demonstrates how observed position of a light passing through a refractive element does not match the real position of the light.




This video below demonstrates how one can observe a sunset, even without refraction, on a relatively flat surface:



Problem with the sun is that it's 3000 miles high in FET. Even if it were not, and actually on the surface, it still wouldn't "set" below the horizon as shown here:

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2019, 09:45:15 PM »
Refraction seems to make things rise and set here in this Cinema 4D simulation of the atmosphere:


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Offline stack

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2019, 10:56:46 PM »
Refraction seems to make things rise and set here in this Cinema 4D simulation of the atmosphere:



A few things here.

- The video author seems to completely ditch the "laws of perspective" so I guess that is not applicable any more. Is an FE sunset now just a product of refraction?
- The author uses suncalc as a source. You previously stated in another thread that unless we can show the data such a tool is based on and it gets observational data from all points on earth, it is invalid.
- When they do a star trail comparison between CGI and real, they don't look the same.
- What is the actual refraction data used in the program? What are the settings? I can make just about anything happen in a program when I jack the settings any way I like until I get the desired effect.
- As well, now FE is embracing CGI?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline reer

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2019, 01:40:24 AM »
The posted video of a coin disappearing behind the edge of the table is just mumbo-jumbo. You can clearly see that the camera is sitting BELOW the tabletop. And yes, even if the sun "sets" high up in the sky I will see it disappearing, as long as I'm sitting in a hole, or behind a mountain. But that does NOT work if I'm standing on a level plain, or at the beach. In that case, the sun would "set" while still high up in the sky.

And, even if the sun circling the earth is at ground level - which would be a bit uncomfortable for the people living under the sun ;-), no amount of hocus pocus will make it sink below the horizon if I am standing on a flat earth.

If I understand the video with the disappearing candle correctly, that's only a matter of pointing the camera upwards so that, as the candle moves away, if disappears from the frame. You can tell it is pointed upwards, because neither the carriage that the candle sits on, nor the table, is ever visible, even at the closest distance.

Re the star trail video, I thought FE despises theory, and only uses observation? So why are you using software simulation? Has anyone ever seen the "atmosplane"? Again, I thought you only use observation. Why do the real star trails look different from the simulated ones, doesn't that indicate your simulation is wrong?

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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2019, 07:35:22 AM »
Refraction seems to make things rise and set here in this Cinema 4D simulation of the atmosphere:

There's also tons of distortion as the moon or sun approaches the horizon, which we don't observe. But I guess this is more of a proof-of-principle than an actual proposal for a working model. Are there any more details of what exactly "adding the atmos[plane/sphere]" means in this video?
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Offline iamcpc

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2019, 01:29:32 AM »

Problem with the sun is that it's 3000 miles high in FET. Even if it were not, and actually on the surface, it still wouldn't "set" below the horizon as shown here:



Stark,

The problem with that demonstration is that it fails to account for the path that the light from the moon takes before hitting the eye of the observer. Refraction is real and it has a very real effect on what we see. Since we don't live in a vacuum and the atmosphere as well as it's composition can have a very dramatic impact on what we see.

Even in the round earth model when you see the sun "rise" it's well below the horizon. When it comes to optics and refraction what you see is not reality. It's your visual cortex's best attempt at making an image out of a cloud of electrical signals.

Another problem is that the demonstration depicts the earth as a perfectly flat plane when (on all flat earth models that I know of) there are hills, mountains, valleys, and even across the ocean there are waves and swells.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 01:35:44 AM by iamcpc »

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Offline stack

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2019, 01:35:39 AM »

Problem with the sun is that it's 3000 miles high in FET. Even if it were not, and actually on the surface, it still wouldn't "set" below the horizon as shown here:



Stark,

The problem with that demonstration is that it fails to account for the path that the light from the moon takes before hitting the eye of the observer. Refraction is real and it has a very real effect on what we see.

Sure, I agree. But swap that out for the Sun and refraction still has to make it disappear, seemingly below the horizon for 12 hours straight, like clockwork, everyday without fail or variance. And then allow it to pop up behind you. I don't see how variable refraction could do all that for every point/climate on the planet.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

tellytubby

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2019, 02:40:53 PM »
This seems to be related the subject.  Atmospheric refraction as explained by the British Astronomical Association.

https://britastro.org/node/17066

Offline reer

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2019, 04:01:48 AM »
This seems to be related the subject.  Atmospheric refraction as explained by the British Astronomical Association.

https://britastro.org/node/17066
The table in your link shows just how irrelevant diffraction is to my question: even with rays parallel to the earth's surface (0 degrees), the diffraction is less than 0.5 degrees. My question asks how the sun can be seen to set if it is at least 3 degrees above the horizon. Also, of course, diffraction would make us see the sun "set" even higher in the sky. According to the table, diffraction would add about 15' my minimum elevation, i.e. the setting sun never "sets" less than 3.25 degrees above the horizon.

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2019, 08:09:26 AM »
The problem with that demonstration is that it fails to account for the path that the light from the moon takes before hitting the eye of the observer. Refraction is real and it has a very real effect on what we see. Since we don't live in a vacuum and the atmosphere as well as it's composition can have a very dramatic impact on what we see.

Even in the round earth model when you see the sun "rise" it's well below the horizon. When it comes to optics and refraction what you see is not reality. It's your visual cortex's best attempt at making an image out of a cloud of electrical signals.

Refraction wouldn't bend light making it curve under the clouds:

Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2019, 10:41:05 AM »
The problem with that demonstration is that it fails to account for the path that the light from the moon takes before hitting the eye of the observer. Refraction is real and it has a very real effect on what we see. Since we don't live in a vacuum and the atmosphere as well as it's composition can have a very dramatic impact on what we see.

Even in the round earth model when you see the sun "rise" it's well below the horizon. When it comes to optics and refraction what you see is not reality. It's your visual cortex's best attempt at making an image out of a cloud of electrical signals.

Refraction wouldn't bend light making it curve under the clouds:


The issue of a shadow of a mountain cast on the underside of clouds is simply a matter of reflected light from the surface of the earth.

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2019, 10:53:42 AM »
The problem with that demonstration is that it fails to account for the path that the light from the moon takes before hitting the eye of the observer. Refraction is real and it has a very real effect on what we see. Since we don't live in a vacuum and the atmosphere as well as it's composition can have a very dramatic impact on what we see.

Even in the round earth model when you see the sun "rise" it's well below the horizon. When it comes to optics and refraction what you see is not reality. It's your visual cortex's best attempt at making an image out of a cloud of electrical signals.

Refraction wouldn't bend light making it curve under the clouds:


The issue of a shadow of a mountain cast on the underside of clouds is simply a matter of reflected light from the surface of the earth.

Your evidence for this, please. With sources.
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Do you have any evidence of reality?

Re: How is it possible to see the sun rise or set?
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2019, 11:58:13 AM »
The problem with that demonstration is that it fails to account for the path that the light from the moon takes before hitting the eye of the observer. Refraction is real and it has a very real effect on what we see. Since we don't live in a vacuum and the atmosphere as well as it's composition can have a very dramatic impact on what we see.

Even in the round earth model when you see the sun "rise" it's well below the horizon. When it comes to optics and refraction what you see is not reality. It's your visual cortex's best attempt at making an image out of a cloud of electrical signals.

Refraction wouldn't bend light making it curve under the clouds:


The issue of a shadow of a mountain cast on the underside of clouds is simply a matter of reflected light from the surface of the earth.

Your evidence for this, please. With sources.
What evidence is necessary?

You see reflected sunlight all around you.

Reflected sunlight is certainly strong enough to cast shadows; in fact, it is strong enough to inflict blindness and sunburn.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 10:24:40 AM by totallackey »