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Offline QED

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2019, 11:54:45 PM »
The two options you have provided to me for photographic evidence are not a true dichotomy. There is a third that I see: evaluate each piece of photographic evidence on its own merits, rather than believing all or none. This is the position that I hold.
Then you disagree with me, and consider photographic material to be evidence, and should be doing so consistently. In that case, you have a whole lot of ice shelf photography to deal with. But that's your problem - you set a silly standard for yourself.

I do believe I apply it consistently, but am happy to adjust if you are aware of an instance otherwise. I just don’t think that all photographs must necessarily be either good evidence or not evidence. I’d rather assess each piece of evidence separately.

That’s really all, honest. I don’t want to be manipulative or subjective about it. And this seems like the best way to do that.

I just googled flat earth ice wall, and saw a fair amount of returns displaying various walls of ice. I’ll presently be spending some time reviewing them separately, and will pass along any to you that I find interesting (just in case you might also).
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2019, 11:59:13 PM »
I do believe I apply it consistently, but am happy to adjust if you are aware of an instance otherwise. I just don’t think that all photographs must necessarily be either good evidence or not evidence. I’d rather assess each piece of evidence separately.
That is the blatantly obvious position for the "photographs are evidence" camp. The question isn't whether all photos are always strong evidence of something, the question is whether they can ever be evidence. Your compatriots, in my mind, showed that they can't - dismissing photographs as CGI before a photograph was even nominated, because it clashed with their worldview. It is therefore my preference to assume, overzealously, that no photographs are good evidence.

You are welcome to disagree with me, but then you have to apply it evenly - thus dismissing my own claim that no photographic evidence of the Ice Wall exists. You can grab any appropriate visual aid and elevate it to evidence status via your own (in my view, misguided) standard. Any photo of the "Ross Ice Shelf" will be a good starting point for your inquiry, but I won't be able to assist you with something I don't myself believe to be meaningful.
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Offline QED

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2019, 12:05:15 AM »
I do believe I apply it consistently, but am happy to adjust if you are aware of an instance otherwise. I just don’t think that all photographs must necessarily be either good evidence or not evidence. I’d rather assess each piece of evidence separately.
That is the blatantly obvious position for the "photographs are evidence" camp. The question isn't whether all photos are always strong evidence of something, the question is whether they can ever be evidence. Your compatriots, in my mind, showed that they can't - dismissing photographs as CGI before a photograph was even nominated, because it clashed with their worldview. It is therefore my preference to assume, overzealously, that no photographs are good evidence.

You are welcome to disagree with me, but then you have to apply it evenly - thus dismissing my own claim that no photographic evidence of the Ice Wall exists. You can grab any appropriate visual aid and elevate it to evidence status via your own (in my view, misguided) standard. Any photo of the "Ross Ice Shelf" will be a good starting point for your inquiry, but I won't be able to assist you with something I don't myself believe to be meaningful.

I’m afraid we’re just going to have to agree to disagree here. Sorry we couldn’t see eye-to-eye on this matter. I think the impasse is that you desire all photographs to either be accepted or rejected - because they cannot be trusted to be undoctored or accurate - and this is your standard. My standard is to assess each separately.

So I do believe middle ground can be found whereby we each apply our chosen standards consistently, even though we disagree on what that standard is.

Moving forward, I will do my best to be mindful and respectful of your position on photographs with respect to evidence.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2019, 12:14:01 AM »
I think the impasse is that you desire all photographs to either be accepted or rejected
I explicitly told you this is not the case, and for the avoidance of doubt I am doing so again.
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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2019, 07:34:28 PM »
So, you have evidence that people explored beyond the known parts of Antarctica? This is revolutionary stuff.
I have evidence that the Ross Ice Shelf is not an impenetrable wall of ice which circles the earth, or part thereof.
I have presented that evidence.
What is your evidence that it is as you claim?
All you have, as far as I can see, is some quote from Ross when he first discovered it.
That quote is not in dispute, but someone discovering something and declaring it to be impassible doesn't negate or make liars of all future expeditions which have found a way to get past it.

Quote
Of course, that's not what you're saying. You're saying you think Antarctica is as described in RET. I'm sure you understand the futility of just stating that.

Again, Antarctica being a continent doesn't imply a globe earth. Your own Wiki has a nod to the bi-polar model. I understand that's not a popular model, but some FE people clearly believe it. At times Tom seems to be backing it although he's never very clear on that point.

I'm intrigued how you decide what to believe. You berated someone in this thread for applying different standards of evidence but this is what you seem to be doing here. If you believe in an ice wall which circles a flat earth then I'd ask what evidence you have for that. The evidence presented in the Wiki is done without many references, the main one being to the aforementioned quote from Ross.
My evidence is, admittedly, links to sources. I have no personal experience but, far as I know, neither do you. So on what basis are you deciding what to believe?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2019, 08:26:34 PM »
I have evidence that the Ross Ice Shelf is not an impenetrable wall of ice which circles the earth, or part thereof.
I don't recall ever claiming that the Ice Wall is impenetrable. As for things I actually did say - you don't actually appear to disagree with me. You just need to assert your belonging to a tribe.

That's fine, I've grown to expect that. But I'm not sure how to help you when you're just expressing your indignation while not disagreeing with me.
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Offline stack

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2019, 09:07:11 PM »
Here’s why I find the wiki (and image) confusing. For instance, is this a direct quote from Ross or some sort of interpretation? Either way, it should be cited, it’s not clear where it came from:

Beyond the 150 foot Ice Wall is anyone's guess. How far the ice extends; how it terminates; and what exists beyond it, are questions to which no present human experience can reply. All we at present know is, that snow and hail, howling winds, and indescribable storms and hurricanes prevail; and that in every direction "human ingress is barred by unsealed escarpments of perpetual ice," extending farther than eye or telescope can penetrate, and becoming lost in gloom and darkness. Some hold that the tundra of ice and snow stretches forever eternally.

How is this known, especially given the above, to TFES:

The Ice Wall is a natural formation, a thick mass of floating ice that is attached to land, formed from and fed by tongues of glaciers extending outward from deep within the uncharted tundra into sheltered waters. Where there are no strong currents, the ice becomes partly grounded on the sea bottom and attaches itself to rocks and islands. The wall is pushed forward into the sea by glacial pressure until its forward growth is terminated.

How is this known to TFES, seemingly stated as factual:

The weight of The Ice Walls are so enormous that they have literally pressed the land two thirds of a mile (one kilometer) into the earth. Under the massive forces of their own weight, the ice walls deform and drag themselves outward.

How is this known to TFES:

Temperatures are thought to approach absolute zero the further one explores outwards. Exploration in this type of pitch black freezing environment is impossible for any man or machine. We live on a vast plane with an unknown diameter and an unknown depth.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2019, 09:09:59 PM »
Why are you conflating things that are "thought to" with "known"?

Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2019, 09:15:56 PM »
Why are you conflating things that are "thought to" with "known"?

Why are you addressing only the last quote from the wiki stack presented? The middle two are presented as factual and the top one is a quote with no citation. What have you to say to those?
We are smarter than those scientists.
I see multiple contradicting explanations. You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2019, 09:21:38 PM »
Say to what? It's talking about the formation of the ice fronts at the coast of Antarctica.

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Offline stack

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2019, 09:40:50 PM »
Say to what? It's talking about the formation of the ice fronts at the coast of Antarctica.

Which seemingly require knowledge from beyond the ice fronts. How was this knowledge gained?

"...fed by tongues of glaciers extending outward from deep within the uncharted tundra into sheltered waters. Where there are no strong currents, the ice becomes partly grounded on the sea bottom and attaches itself to rocks and islands. The wall is pushed forward into the sea by glacial pressure until its forward growth is terminated. "

"How far the ice extends; how it terminates; and what exists beyond it, are questions to which no present human experience can reply."

In this case, knowledge is needed of the ground deep underneath. How is this known to FE?

"The weight of The Ice Walls are so enormous that they have literally pressed the land two thirds of a mile (one kilometer) into the earth."
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2019, 09:46:43 PM »
It's not "known to FE". How glaciers and ice fronts form is "known". Extensive research has been performed on the fronts of ice in the Arctic and Antarctic regions.

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2019, 10:03:22 PM »
It's not "known to FE". How glaciers and ice fronts form is "known". Extensive research has been performed on the fronts of ice in the Arctic and Antarctic regions.

Knowledge of the interior of Antarctica would be required to make some of these claims. According to a remark in the wiki without citation, "Beyond the 150 foot Ice Wall is anyone's guess. How far the ice extends; how it terminates; and what exists beyond it, are questions to which no present human experience can reply. All we at present know is, that snow and hail, howling winds, and indescribable storms and hurricanes prevail".

It seems implausible that we would know how the 'fronts' are formed with no present human experience beyond them. With these inconsistencies it seems dubious to even have an entry on a so-called "ice wall". I'm not sure what point it is trying to make. As it stands, it's really just saying "there are some glaciers, some that are tall."
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2019, 10:07:29 PM »
I don't see why people would need to go beyond them to study them. False equivalence. People have been to the glaciers to study them.

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2019, 10:25:54 PM »
I don't see why people would need to go beyond them to study them. False equivalence. People have been to the glaciers to study them.

As it stands, I would revise the wiki entry to:

"Antarctica, there are some glaciers, some that are tall, some people have been to glaciers to study them." That's about as grand of a point the wiki is making today. Otherwise, what is the intent of the entry?

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2019, 05:54:43 AM »
I have evidence that the Ross Ice Shelf is not an impenetrable wall of ice which circles the earth, or part thereof.
I don't recall ever claiming that the Ice Wall is impenetrable.

You said:

Quote
it's interesting to find out that this photograph only represents a former part of the Ice Wall. I would be keen to replace it with a more recent photo of the Ross Ice Shelf proper

So, from that I infer you believe that the Ross Ice Shelf is the "Ice Wall", or part of it - which in the FE model is a wall of ice which goes around the edge of the earth. Your Wiki quotes Ross saying he couldn't get past it and goes on to say:

Quote
Beyond the 150 foot Ice Wall is anyone's guess. How far the ice extends; how it terminates; and what exists beyond it, are questions to which no present human experience can reply. All we at present know is, that snow and hail, howling winds, and indescribable storms and hurricanes prevail; and that in every direction "human ingress is barred by unsealed escarpments of perpetual ice," extending farther than eye or telescope can penetrate, and becoming lost in gloom and darkness.

So it doesn't sound like you collectively believe that you can get far past it, if at all.

Quote
As for things I actually did say - you don't actually appear to disagree with me. You just need to assert your belonging to a tribe.

It's quite hard to determine whether I disagree with you as you so rarely say plainly what you do believe.

Quote
But I'm not sure how to help you when you're just expressing your indignation while not disagreeing with me.

You could help me - and help debates on here generally - by plainly stating what you actually believe and what your basis for those beliefs are.
Tom believes a load of rubbish in my opinion but he does at least say what he believes and why he believes it. It moves debate along.
As a society you place great stock in personal observations - which is fine, of course those are always desirable. But they aren't always possible, this is an example.
You've not been to Antarctica - as far as I know - and neither have I. But I have beliefs about it, those are based on various sources of information.

It would be useful to know, for the purposes of this debate, what you do actually believe about Antarctica and/or the Ice Wall and what those beliefs are based on.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2019, 11:22:12 AM »
Its funny that literally no one discusses the fact that we have, at the least, aerial studies of the lake formations under the glaciers all over the entire continent of Antarctica. So you can either address how that is possible if Antarctica is just an ice wall, or you can just say its fake.
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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2019, 12:47:46 PM »
Its funny that literally no one discusses the fact that we have, at the least, aerial studies of the lake formations under the glaciers all over the entire continent of Antarctica. So you can either address how that is possible if Antarctica is just an ice wall, or you can just say its fake.

You would be correct in making that appraisal.

The Piri Reis map, which I mention in my model, is striking evidence for the continent's existence, or at least what can be presumed to be Antarctica.
Anyone who would pay Richard Branson hundreds of thousands of dollars for the visual confirmation that we are all doomed to the unforgiving abyss of space, definitely deserves to know that.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2019, 01:16:37 PM »
Interesting, I have never heard of the Piri Reis map. I will have to do some more research. Thanks.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ice wall picture (I hope this is correct)
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2019, 03:28:17 PM »
You said:

Quote
it's interesting to find out that this photograph only represents a former part of the Ice Wall. I would be keen to replace it with a more recent photo of the Ross Ice Shelf proper

So, from that I infer you believe that the Ross Ice Shelf is the "Ice Wall", or part of it - which in the FE model is a wall of ice which goes around the edge of the earth. Your Wiki quotes Ross saying he couldn't get past it and goes on to say:

Quote
Beyond the 150 foot Ice Wall is anyone's guess. How far the ice extends; how it terminates; and what exists beyond it, are questions to which no present human experience can reply. All we at present know is, that snow and hail, howling winds, and indescribable storms and hurricanes prevail; and that in every direction "human ingress is barred by unsealed escarpments of perpetual ice," extending farther than eye or telescope can penetrate, and becoming lost in gloom and darkness.

So it doesn't sound like you collectively believe that you can get far past it, if at all.
None of this gets me any closer to understanding why you think I think the Ice Wall is "impenetrable" - especially when you try to force an equivalence between the Ice Wall and what may or may not lie beyond it. Hopefully the fact that I now told you three times that I don't believe the Ice Wall to be impenetrable will be of some help.

It's quite hard to determine whether I disagree with you as you so rarely say plainly what you do believe.
[...]
You could help me - and help debates on here generally - by plainly stating what you actually believe and what your basis for those beliefs are.
Aside from the personal tone of your message (which I'll gently remind you to avoid), I'm not sure how I could be of more help. I feel like I was quite explicit in what I'm proposing, and when QED tried putting words in my mouth, I was quite clear in my disagreement.

It sounds like you were looking for more detail, but instead of asking questions you opted for a mix of guessing and reading the words of others. I'm still happy to answer questions, but I think you'll find it easier to understand others' positions when you base your understanding only on what they said, and not what you yourself thought up.

I simply can't help you understand my position if you:
  • Choose not to state what it is you don't understand.
  • Fill the gaps in your understanding with your imagination and then demand that I address it.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 03:32:33 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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