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Offline ElTrancy

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Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« on: January 28, 2019, 04:35:40 PM »
How does paper fall the way it does? On a Flat Earth there is no gravity, and objects don't fall, the Earth accelerates upwards to it. So have a friend hold a piece of paper and a rock. Now put your hands under them, and simulate what would happen, by bringing your hands up to meet those objects. That's strange...there's no air resistance from the paper... How does this work? Unless objects do fall by some magic of Flat Earth science. Anybody care to explain this?
Please fucking launch a mininuke at me, I've become hopelessly lost.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2019, 05:51:11 PM »
Whenever you ask a question like this, please remember Einstein's Equivalence Principle - at least locally, UA will be indistinguishable from the gravitational model proposed by RET. This is a direct consequence of RET, not FET. Whenever you think you've found a difference that can be locally demonstrated, you're either misunderstanding the physics behind RET (a likely scenario), or you're disproving it (which would be exciting!).

Your confusion stems from a misunderstanding of frames of reference. The Earth, and the air immediately above it, are both accelerating upwards with regard to a hypothetical observer external to UA. As the air accelerates upward, it pushes the piece of paper up, causing the force you're interpreting as air resistance.

This scenario can be easily reframed into a local observer's frame of reference, one that's stationary with regard to the Earth. From that FoR, the Earth and air above it are stationary (by definition), and the piece of paper is affected by a gravitational pseudoforce and drag.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 05:52:42 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!


*mic stays stationary and earth accelerates upwards towards it*

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2019, 07:06:04 PM »
The Equivalence Principle says that gravity operates EXACTLY like a world where the earth is flat and accelerating upwards. This applies to everything from falling pieces of paper to the Doppler Shift of light when light is pointed vertically.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Evidence_for_Universal_Acceleration
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 07:08:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2019, 07:11:35 PM »
The Equivalence Principle says that gravity operates EXACTLY like a world where the earth is flat and accelerating upwards. This applies to everything from falling pieces of paper to the Doppler Shift of light when light is pointed vertically.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Evidence_for_Universal_Acceleration
Why does the rate of acceleration vary?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2019, 07:17:29 PM »
The Equivalence Principle says that gravity operates EXACTLY like a world where the earth is flat and accelerating upwards. This applies to everything from falling pieces of paper to the Doppler Shift of light when light is pointed vertically.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Evidence_for_Universal_Acceleration
Why does the rate of acceleration vary?

It doesn't. That is based on a misunderstanding of gravimetry.

See: https://wiki.tfes.org/Gravimetry

Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2019, 08:16:54 PM »
The Equivalence Principle says that gravity operates EXACTLY like a world where the earth is flat and accelerating upwards. This applies to everything from falling pieces of paper to the Doppler Shift of light when light is pointed vertically.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Evidence_for_Universal_Acceleration
Why does the rate of acceleration vary?

It doesn't. That is based on a misunderstanding of gravimetry.

See: https://wiki.tfes.org/Gravimetry
Corrections based on the earth elliptical shape. Now we know, you told us.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2019, 09:55:39 PM »
The Equivalence Principle says that gravity operates EXACTLY like a world where the earth is flat and accelerating upwards. This applies to everything from falling pieces of paper to the Doppler Shift of light when light is pointed vertically.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Evidence_for_Universal_Acceleration
Why does the rate of acceleration vary?

It doesn't. That is based on a misunderstanding of gravimetry.

See: https://wiki.tfes.org/Gravimetry
Corrections based on the earth elliptical shape. Now we know, you told us.

If the earth was elliptical/rotating, then it would not be necessary to add in or subtract artificial corrections to the data and reference model based on your latitude, in order to get the data to show what it should show if the earth were round.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 12:25:30 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2019, 10:25:23 PM »
The Equivalence Principle says that gravity operates EXACTLY like a world where the earth is flat and accelerating upwards. This applies to everything from falling pieces of paper to the Doppler Shift of light when light is pointed vertically.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Evidence_for_Universal_Acceleration
Why does the rate of acceleration vary?

It doesn't. That is based on a misunderstanding of gravimetry.

See: https://wiki.tfes.org/Gravimetry
Corrections based on the earth elliptical shape. Now we know, you told us.

If the earth was elliptical/rotating, then it would not be necessary to add in or subtract artificial corrections to the data and reference model based on your latitude, in order to get the data to show what it should show if the earth were round. The fact that those corrections are necessary suggests that it is not.

Strangely, it's the opposite. It's precisely why with a rotating oblate spheroid it is necessary to add in or subtract based upon survey corrections to the data and reference model based on your latitude.

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2019, 10:42:36 PM »
The differences by latitude should be expressed in the gravity data. The fact that it needs to be added in artificially shows that you guys generally don't know how these devices work at all when you use this as evidence.

Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2019, 10:48:59 PM »
The differences by latitude should be expressed in the gravity data. The fact that it needs to be added in artificially shows that you guys generally don't know how these devices work at all when you use this as evidence.
How come we have scientists investigating the way the earth works and there are a few people who think otherwise and cannot explain it other than on some obscure internet site?

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Offline stack

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2019, 01:09:21 AM »
The differences by latitude should be expressed in the gravity data. The fact that it needs to be added in artificially shows that you guys generally don't know how these devices work at all when you use this as evidence.

There's nothing artificial about it. You do tons of surveys at different latitudes, log them. Latitudes have different results. It's like any measurement of anything. Take boiling water. At sea level, water boils at 212 °F. With each 500-feet increase in elevation, the boiling point of water is lowered by just under 1 °F. How do we know this? Because people have looked at what the boiling point temperature is at any given altitude.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2019, 01:17:27 AM »
The differences by latitude should be expressed in the gravity data. The fact that it needs to be added in artificially shows that you guys generally don't know how these devices work at all when you use this as evidence.

There's nothing artificial about it. You do tons of surveys at different latitudes, log them. Latitudes have different results. It's like any measurement of anything. Take boiling water. At sea level, water boils at 212 °F. With each 500-feet increase in elevation, the boiling point of water is lowered by just under 1 °F. How do we know this? Because people have looked at what the boiling point temperature is at any given altitude.

If the survey is really capturing the gravity data, as you guys allege, then no correction for latitude would be needed at all. False equivalence. The artificial adjustment by latitude is being added in.

The "they must know!" handwaving and appeals to authority is uncorroborated.

It is well admitted that those values represent the "theoretical" gravity.

From New standards for reducing gravity data: The North American gravity database on p.28:


« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 07:46:57 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2019, 04:19:57 AM »
The differences by latitude should be expressed in the gravity data. The fact that it needs to be added in artificially shows that you guys generally don't know how these devices work at all when you use this as evidence.

There's nothing artificial about it. You do tons of surveys at different latitudes, log them. Latitudes have different results. It's like any measurement of anything. Take boiling water. At sea level, water boils at 212 °F. With each 500-feet increase in elevation, the boiling point of water is lowered by just under 1 °F. How do we know this? Because people have looked at what the boiling point temperature is at any given altitude.

If the survey is really capturing the gravity data, as you guys allege, then no correction for latitude would be needed at all. False equivalence. The artificial adjustment by latitude is being added in.

Your "they must know!" handwaving and appeals to authority is uncorroborated.

It is well admitted that those values represent the "theoretical" gravity.

It's not values that represent "theoretical" gravity. This from a North American Gravity Database - Real measurements are taken through many, many surveys and populated in various databases:

"Corrections to Gravity Measurements

In order to arrive at geologically meaningful anomaly values, as series of “corrections” are made to raw observations of differences between gravity measured at a station and a base station. The use of this term is misleading because most of these “corrections” are really adjustments that compensate (at least approximately) for known variations in the gravity field that do not have geological meaning."

https://research.utep.edu/Default.aspx?PageContentID=3948&tabid=38186

The point is, gravity anomalies are detected through surveying and then refined with corrections. It's not like there is one resulting gravity numerical value measurement that is the same all around the globe and then they just add or subtract based upon some arbitrary theoretical value. They find gravity anomalies all over the place. That's pretty much the whole point of surveying and populating the databases.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2019, 04:29:20 AM »
Form your link:

"gravity readings are corrected for latitude by multiplying the distance a gravity station is north or south of this base station by this gradient"

It is describing an artificial correction to the data. The latitude information is not coming from the gravimeter.

Why would the gravity readings need to be "corrected for latitude" if these surveys could see it?

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Offline stack

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2019, 05:20:40 AM »
Form your link:

"gravity readings are corrected for latitude by multiplying the distance a gravity station is north or south of this base station by this gradient"

It is describing an artificial correction to the data. The latitude information is not coming from the gravimeter.

Why would the gravity readings need to be "corrected for latitude" if these surveys could see it?

For the same reason they have corrections for terrain/altitude, among other things. I never said latitude was coming from the device, that's why it's a correction, a refinement. The gravity reading prior to correction is not the same everywhere on the planet - Prior to and regardless of corrections. That's the point.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2019, 06:03:09 AM »
If the gravimeter can't detect the latitude data, then it is not possible for these gravimeters to survey the earth in the way you are suggesting that they do.

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Offline stack

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2019, 06:20:39 AM »
If the gravimeter can't detect the latitude data, then it is not possible for these gravimeters to survey the earth in the way you are suggesting that they do.

Some do. This one has a GPS receiver built in:



https://scintrexltd.com/product/cg-6-autograv-gravity-meter/
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Why Not

Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2019, 06:43:54 AM »
Why would the gravity readings need to be "corrected for latitude" if these surveys could see it?

The corrections for latitude are not added to the data , it is subtracted from the data as it is taken as a known value as computed. The data wanted is the difference from the expected value showing the anomaly (look up the definition).
No one is actively trying to prove the earth round with a gravimeter (this is known data). The widest use would be in minerals, oil, gas etc exploration. They are mapping out the sub-surface by looking at the difference between the measured value and the expected value.

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Offline stack

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2019, 07:25:45 AM »
Why would the gravity readings need to be "corrected for latitude" if these surveys could see it?

The corrections for latitude are not added to the data , it is subtracted from the data as it is taken as a known value as computed. The data wanted is the difference from the expected value showing the anomaly (look up the definition).
No one is actively trying to prove the earth round with a gravimeter (this is known data). The widest use would be in minerals, oil, gas etc exploration. They are mapping out the sub-surface by looking at the difference between the measured value and the expected value.

Additionally, I was reading somewhere that the data is used in missile trajectory calculations.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Paper. Simply irrefutable.
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2019, 07:31:14 AM »
Quote
Some do. This one has a GPS receiver built in

So it automatically calculates the latitude correction then? I can only assume that you have conceded the discussion.