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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #520 on: September 13, 2014, 10:52:32 PM »
So you have no good criteria?
Does anyone?

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Offline Lemon

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #521 on: September 13, 2014, 10:57:16 PM »
How do you view Irish people? And separately, if you care, how do you view Republic of Ireland and Israel relations?
NOTHING TO SEE HERE. IGNORE RAMA SET.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #522 on: September 13, 2014, 11:15:35 PM »
LORD DAVE and RAMA SET, both valid questions. I think each person tries to answer that one for himself, at least to a point. All Jews put great pride in education. But the kind of education one gets will be determined by what kind of Jew you are. Are you Orthodox? Then you will probably end up with Yeshiva.

Are you Reform? Then probably a public education and Hebrew school on Sunday. And of course, university studies. A Conservative? Similar, but with more of an interest on traditional Jewish teaching.

But who makes the decisions about what the criteria are? Well, in the field of religion, it is the religious authorities, and the scholars who teach. That is true no matter what religion you belong to, so far as I know.

For us, I would say its the Rabbis of Blessed Memory that determined the realms of permitted inquiry. But for a Jew, that almost anything. The only thing you CAN'T touch is the basic phrase: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." the rest of it is up for argument, although I personally am not inclined to debate it much, because of my Orthodox tendencies.

I have nothing against the Irish. I know next to nothing about how Israel and the Irish Republic have related or failed to relate over the years. I do know that I have little use for the Catholic Church, but that's another issue altogether. There are plenty of Irish that would disagree with me on that, and recently, plenty that would agree with me!

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #523 on: September 13, 2014, 11:57:18 PM »
Don't you think the criteria for what is literally true in the Bible should rely upon archaeological techniques and stringent tests of historicity rather than the teachings of an understandably biased source?

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #524 on: September 14, 2014, 12:01:39 AM »
Don't you think the criteria for what is literally true in the Bible should rely upon archaeological techniques and stringent tests of historicity rather than the teachings of an understandably biased source?


Jews are God's chosen and therefore perfect in their knowledge.  Why would they need anything else?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #525 on: September 14, 2014, 12:33:25 AM »
Don't you think the criteria for what is literally true in the Bible should rely upon archaeological techniques and stringent tests of historicity rather than the teachings of an understandably biased source?


Jews are God's chosen and therefore perfect in their knowledge.  Why would they need anything else?

Because people think they are dicks?

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Offline Lemon

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #526 on: September 14, 2014, 08:40:54 AM »
There's too many Muslims flooding into Europe. What did the Holy Roman Empire even mean? Apparently nothing. #smh
NOTHING TO SEE HERE. IGNORE RAMA SET.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #527 on: September 14, 2014, 11:33:47 AM »
LEMON, I agree with you on that. RAMA SET, I'm inclined to agree with you, insofar as it is possible. But remember, they had a hard time finding a Jeep in the Sinai Peninsula from the Yom Kippur War recently because it had been buried in 50 feet of sand. So, of necessity, there are going to be limitations on what archaeology is able to accomplish at any one time.

And remember that the historicity of things when you're dealing with Judaism and the Jews is a little different than when you're dealing with younger civilisations. The Jewish civilisation is 4500 years old. We have maintained our culture and way of life far longer than most civilisations have on this planet, except the Chinese and possibly the Hindu (the Hindu being about the same age, and the Chinese being about 1500 years older).

Our civilisation has passed down our history through oral AND written traditions for 4500 years. When you see that the Written Torah is backed by the Oral Torah (the Oral Traditions of our Fathers), the history therein becomes a bit harder to dismiss out of hand. I am not suggesting that further research shouldn't be done. Of course it should. But what I am suggesting is that Torah gets the benefit of the doubt until such time as it is proven definitively true (most likely) or definitively false (highly unlikely).

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #528 on: September 14, 2014, 11:40:00 AM »
LEMON, I agree with you on that. RAMA SET, I'm inclined to agree with you, insofar as it is possible. But remember, they had a hard time finding a Jeep in the Sinai Peninsula from the Yom Kippur War recently because it had been buried in 50 feet of sand. So, of necessity, there are going to be lim
itations on what archaeology is able to accomplish at any one time.

And remember that the historicity of things when you're dealing with Judaism and the Jews is a little different than when you're dealing with younger civilisations. The Jewish civilisation is 4500 years old. We have maintained our culture and way of life far longer than most civilisations have on this planet, except the Chinese and possibly the Hindu (the Hindu being about the same age, and the Chinese being about 1500 years older).

Our civilisation has passed down our history through oral AND written traditions for 4500 years. When you see that the Written Torah is backed by the Oral Torah (the Oral Traditions of our Fathers), the history therein becomes a bit harder to dismiss out of hand. I am not suggesting that further research shouldn't be done. Of course it should. But what I am suggesting is that Torah gets the benefit of the doubt until such time as it is proven definitively true (most likely) or definitively false (highly unlikely).
So because Jews can read and write, the Torah must be true?
You do know that speaking what's written doesn't count as proof right?

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #529 on: September 14, 2014, 11:58:35 AM »
DAVE, you evidently have no idea what you are talking about. The Oral Torah contains many things that the written Torah does not.

QUOTE OF MINE FROM ANOTHER THREAD: "Since the very foundational aspects of Jewish existence are based on the Exodus, it is difficult to conclude that such never occurred. Very much like the Chinese Civilisation, where the first three dynasties were determined to be mythical, now the third of those has been proven historical through archaeological and historical research. I expect the first two will as well. The same will occur with the Exodus in time.

To be blunt, and perhaps a bit rude, people don't just invent founding myths that endure for 4500 fucking years. You can invent shit that might endure for 50, or even a 100 years, but not for 4 and half a millenia. And ultimately, since the Book of Exodus has been around for 4500 years, and the atheistic/agnostic mindset only for about 250, I would submit that it is the latter upon whom the burden of proof rests. If you wish to argue that Exodus never happened, and challenge the accepted tradition of Jewish, Christian, and even Muslim civilisation by so arguing, then you'd better buy a damned good bow, and put some excellent arrows in your quiver, and be prepared to go to battle. While you're at it, be prepared not only to lose said battle, but be prepared to look like an asshole doing it.

And the claim that "modern biblical scholarship" has proven that Exodus was written 600 years after the event won't get you far with about 80% of the Jewish religious world (the non-religious Jewish world doesn't give a rat's ass one way or the other), and it won't get you too far with most of the Christian world, or any of the Muslim world (not that I care about the latter, but, I'm simply making a point). Most of us regard "modern biblical scholarship" as a joke. It was established largely BY atheists and agnostics, so it holds essentially no value because its deliberate intent from the beginning is to disprove the text, rather than look at it objectively.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point." END QUOTE.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 12:04:54 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #530 on: September 14, 2014, 01:04:00 PM »
1. Argument from age.  Logical fallacy.
2. If they contain different things then they can't back each other up.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but the oral Torah has been written down at least once yes?  So its not exactly hard to keep straight.

And 4,500 years?  Are you judging this simply from the estimated age of the book you get your ideas from or were you there?

And if the former, doesn't that say more about how Jews are incapable of change than it does to prove a point about history?  Following a book's rules about culture for longer than any civilization should?

Oh!  And wouldn't that mean that while Muslims are in the 7th century, you're well in the BCE?  Meaning you are more barbaric than them?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 01:05:34 PM by Lord Dave »

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #531 on: September 14, 2014, 01:15:46 PM »
The Oral Torah is collected in 20 volumes of Talmud, which take up a shit-ton of space on a library shelf. I would recommend reading an encyclopedia entry on the age of the Jews.

As for the comment about the Muslims, do note that Jews are capable of change. We no longer execute for adultery, and the like. Muslims still LIVE in the Seventh Century. We refer to the Torah as the basis of legislation, but amend it as necessary to reflect life in the modern world, much as the United States no longer considers the Negro 3/5 of a person, or permits slavery, etc etc, but has amended its constitution to reflect changes in life in the modern age.

As far as keeping Oral Torah straight, its harder than a non-Jew thinks. Just because its been written down, in many cases, no firm decisions have been decided on its issues. They continued to be debated today. In some cases, firm decisions have been made, but in many, different decisions are made when the situation comes up depending on the circumstances.

Since human beings, and civilisations, do not always operate logically, application of the rules of logic cannot always apply. By that standard, they would have given up the search for the first three dynasties of China since for many, many years they had found NOTHING. But they did not, and eventually, the research paid off.

At present, I must sign off. Have a pleasant day, people.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 01:30:38 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #532 on: September 15, 2014, 12:05:00 AM »
The Oral Torah is collected in 20 volumes of Talmud, which take up a shit-ton of space on a library shelf. I would recommend reading an encyclopedia entry on the age of the Jews.

As for the comment about the Muslims, do note that Jews are capable of change. We no longer execute for adultery, and the like. Muslims still LIVE in the Seventh Century. We refer to the Torah as the basis of legislation, but amend it as necessary to reflect life in the modern world, much as the United States no longer considers the Negro 3/5 of a person, or permits slavery, etc etc, but has amended its constitution to reflect changes in life in the modern age.

As far as keeping Oral Torah straight, its harder than a non-Jew thinks. Just because its been written down, in many cases, no firm decisions have been decided on its issues. They continued to be debated today. In some cases, firm decisions have been made, but in many, different decisions are made when the situation comes up depending on the circumstances.

Since human beings, and civilisations, do not always operate logically, application of the rules of logic cannot always apply. By that standard, they would have given up the search for the first three dynasties of China since for many, many years they had found NOTHING. But they did not, and eventually, the research paid off.

At present, I must sign off. Have a pleasant day, people.

Quote
When you see that the Written Torah is backed by the Oral Torah
Quote
As far as keeping Oral Torah straight, its harder than a non-Jew thinks.  Just because its been written down, in many cases, no firm decisions have been decided on its issues. They continued to be debated today. In some cases, firm decisions have been made, but in many, different decisions are made when the situation comes up depending on the circumstances.
I hope you notice the contradiction here.

So what you're saying is that you DON'T have the same culture as 4,500 years ago, the Oral Torah is debated and thus is not valid evidence of anything, and the written Torah doesn't back up the Oral in all places, giving that little evidence.

Also, didn't Egyptian Myth endure for quite a few thousand years?
Greek Mythology still persist to this very day.  Though it was believed to be true for a few thousand years as well.
And isn't Hinduism the oldest religion in the world?

I submit that people do invent religions that persist for thousands of years.  People are, after all, easily led.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #533 on: September 15, 2014, 12:41:20 AM »
DAVE, you evidently have no idea what you are talking about. The Oral Torah contains many things that the written Torah does not.

QUOTE OF MINE FROM ANOTHER THREAD: "Since the very foundational aspects of Jewish existence are based on the Exodus, it is difficult to conclude that such never occurred. Very much like the Chinese Civilisation, where the first three dynasties were determined to be mythical, now the third of those has been proven historical through archaeological and historical research. I expect the first two will as well. The same will occur with the Exodus in time.

To be blunt, and perhaps a bit rude, people don't just invent founding myths that endure for 4500 fucking years. You can invent shit that might endure for 50, or even a 100 years, but not for 4 and half a millenia. And ultimately, since the Book of Exodus has been around for 4500 years, and the atheistic/agnostic mindset only for about 250, I would submit that it is the latter upon whom the burden of proof rests. If you wish to argue that Exodus never happened, and challenge the accepted tradition of Jewish, Christian, and even Muslim civilisation by so arguing, then you'd better buy a damned good bow, and put some excellent arrows in your quiver, and be prepared to go to battle. While you're at it, be prepared not only to lose said battle, but be prepared to look like an asshole doing it.

And the claim that "modern biblical scholarship" has proven that Exodus was written 600 years after the event won't get you far with about 80% of the Jewish religious world (the non-religious Jewish world doesn't give a rat's ass one way or the other), and it won't get you too far with most of the Christian world, or any of the Muslim world (not that I care about the latter, but, I'm simply making a point). Most of us regard "modern biblical scholarship" as a joke. It was established largely BY atheists and agnostics, so it holds essentially no value because its deliberate intent from the beginning is to disprove the text, rather than look at it objectively.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point." END QUOTE.

Please quote normally. It's unnecessarily hard to read your posts. 

Anyway, how are any of those arguments not equally valid for Hinduism, which is several millennia older than Judaism?
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #534 on: September 15, 2014, 01:02:56 AM »
Please quote normally. It's unnecessarily hard to read your posts. 

He can't. He accesses the internet through an old wooden rotary phone.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #535 on: September 15, 2014, 01:26:39 AM »
Please quote normally. It's unnecessarily hard to read your posts. 

He can't. He accesses the internet through an old wooden rotary phone.
Amish Paradise?

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #536 on: September 15, 2014, 02:04:43 AM »
Actually, no, Hinduism is at most only about 1000 years older than Judaism, making that ONE millenium older, rather than several.

And I submit that although modern Rabbinic Judaism is certainly more developed than the ancient tribal Hebrew religion that Abraham adopted in Ur and went to Canaan with, or that Moses met God with in a Burning Bush, it is still the same recognisable Faith, and the same recognisable People practicing that Faith. Ancient Hinduism at this date 4500 years ago (about the time of Abraham) was a religion of the ancient Indo-Aryans occupying, if memory serves, the Northern part of the sub-continent. It was half of modern Hinduism, namely, the Brahmanistic half. It took about 2 and half millenia for the darker skinned Dravidians from Southern India to mix with their Indo-Aryan neighbours, producing the modern Indian, modern day Hinduism, and the caste system, with its multiple emphases on cleanliness, religious rankings, and even its preference to keep the skin colour separate.

So in that sense, Judaism being a recognisable Faith then compared to what it is now, it IS the oldest religion.

Egyptian and Greek myth were never coherent collections of writings per se. They were randomised collections, with competing stories that conflicted with each other, and vied for acceptance throughout the existence of both pagan systems.

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #537 on: September 16, 2014, 01:24:10 PM »
yaakov wrote:

So in that sense, Judaism being a recognisable Faith then compared to what it is now, it IS the oldest religion.


Edwin Johnson (http://www.egodeath.com/edwinjohnsonpaulineepistles.htm#_Toc54460029 ):

But what is not yet understood is the true epoch of the beginning of Hebrew literature -- in other words, the rise of a class of literary men among the Jewish people. It has now been long a growing opinion that the Biblical books are much later than the "tradition" from the "Revival of Letters" has alleged them to be. Some critics, like Ernest Havet and Maurice Vernes, have lowered some of the books many centuries on the chronological scale. In this way the public mind has to some extent been prepared for the conclusion which I venture to announce, that the Hebrew literature is distinctly a modern literature.

 In the first place, it is utterly impossible to trace the existence of Hebrew books among the Jewish people themselves beyond the epoch which I roughly date as "about 400 years ago," or the beginning of the Age of Publication. It is, indeed, alleged that the first Hebrew book was printed at a place called Soncino, near Cremona, a little earlier; but the student will discover, as before, that the fifteenth century dates are not to be trusted, and that sixteenth-century dates are very dubious.

But in general terms let me say that all our information about the Hebrew books from Hebrews themselves is sixteenth-century information. Only from the Age of Publication is any light cast upon the preceding darkness, and it is a light which convinces us that the Hebrew Letters were then a novel invention in the world. In Christian circles it is difficult to trace even the faint beginnings of Hebrew study in the earlier half of our sixteenth century. If the date of the Alcala Polyglott be true, Hebrew was of course known at that time to a limited number of monastic scholars, and was treated by them with no reverence, but merely as an instrument of ecclesiastical dominion. Their Latin version, so-called, is not a version or translation, but a sort of travesty of the Hebrew meaning. And I, at least, cannot conceive that such a thing could have been done had the Hebrew Scriptures been long in existence, and their meaning generally understood.

I have already pointed out what I hold to be the keybook to the system of Latin or Christian literature, the "List of Illustrious Men." Is there any corresponding keybook to the system of Hebrew literature? Undoubtedly there is; but that book is not the Hebrew Bible, which does not contain from end to end a solitary date, in the ordinary sense of the word, that can be used for purposes of science. Books alleged to be of Divine authority, and to contain a tradition from the creation itself, necessarily do not admit of being dated as matter-of-fact compositions are.

But now close the Bible, and open the other traditional books of the Hebrews, for which no Divine authority is claimed, and all becomes clear. The Cabbala, or Tradition, proves to be no tradition at all, but an invention of the Revival of Letters. The key-book is the "Sepher Juchasin" or "Book of Families," written in unpointed Hebrew, and attributed to the pen of one of the Sephardim or Spanish and Portuguese Jews, the Rabbi Abraham Zacuth or Zacuto. Though this little book has, never been translated, its contents have passed into various compilations, and may be conveniently consulted -- for example, in the Latin works of Wolf or of Bartolocci. The book is said to have been written about the year 1502 of our chronology.

Now, what is the programme of this work? It professes to contain a history of the events of the world from the Creation down to the time of the author. In particular, it contains the list of the alleged illustrious Hebrew scholars, and so corresponds to the Latin list to which I have so often referred. If you wish for particulars about Moses Maimonides, or any other famed writer, this list must be consulted, or one of the later lists based upon it. There is no dispensing with it. If it be a genuine record of ancient and mediaeval times, Hebrew antiquity is proved. If, on the other hand, it be, like the Latin list, a mere invention designed to produce the illusion of antiquity, the whole system is discovered to be a modern invention. I have no hesitation in saying that, tried by any possible test, the "Book of Families" is an invention of the Revival of Letters. Not only have no early records been discovered on which it is based, but the later Hebrew writers of the Age of Publication entirely confirm the opinion of the recency of the system.

I say that the admissions of the solitary Rabbi, Elias Levita, of whom a story is told that he gave lessons to Luther in Rome, are sufficient of themselves to establish the truth. What is the meaning of the admission that the vowel points are recent, but that the written language is still in a crude and imperfect state? What is the meaning of the admission that the Hebrew had ceased to be a spoken tongue in the mouth of the people, and that it had become the mere possession of literary men? It means that the Hebrew was the recent work of art of literary men. The Rabbis were in the same inconsistent position with all priestly scholars: they had to maintain the antiquity and sacredness of books which they knew to be fresh and of human origin. The truth, as usual, escapes for the initiated eye, and, possibly, was intended to escape by some of the more enlightened and truth-loving of these scholars.

The tales of "Palestinian" and "Babylonian" schools are but tales. I once thought that there were Spanish schools of Hebrew learning in the eleventh or twelfth century of our chronology; but, on detecting the fable of Zacuto's work, I found that notion must also be abandoned. Nor can I so much as make out anything definite about Jewish culture so late as 1492, when the great exodus from Spain is said to have taken place. The Hebrew accounts of that event are very slight, and appear to have been written down near the middle of the sixteenth century.

Another very important book for the understanding of the rise of Hebrew literature is the chronicle ascribed to the R. Joseph, another of the Sephardim, who is said to have lived in exile at Avignon and at Genoa. Here is a man who may be said to "write Bible," so thoroughly is he steeped in Hebrew poetical imagery. He is one of the best guides to the Bible extant; and, as his work has been done into English, it should be studied by all who wish to arrive at the truth. He is another powerful indirect witness against the antiquity of Hebrew letters.

Another fact that should be added to the sum of evidence is the bad state of the text of the early-printed Hebrew Bibles. Can you conceive it possible that a text which had been long in use, and had been jealously guarded by the pastors and rulers of the people, should come from the Press teeming with errors, and bearing all the marks of rush and haste? To me this is not conceivable. In short, it would be weakness to labour the argument, once clearly stated. It is this: The phenomena of Hebrew letters during the Age of Publication (or sixteenth century) forbid us to suppose that they are an invention of much earlier date.

Again: According to the Christian tradition, which my readers will find in the handbooks, the first Christian scholar who learned Hebrew from Jewish teachers was none other than our notorious Hieronymus, or imaginary Jerome, the mouthpiece of the monks of the Age of Publication.

Once more: When you understand the "Jerome" works to be of that time, many a cloud rolls away, many an enigma is solved. Through this imaginary scholar we learn that the monks had unpointed Hebrew before them; that, consequently, the same word might be read Roim, shepherds, or Reim, lovers; that another word might be read either as Salem or Salim, because "very rarely do the Hebrews use vowels, and the words may be pronounced differently, according to the caprice of the readers and the variety of regions;" that the Hebrew word DBR, without vowels, may be understood as dabar, word, or as daber, pest; that SM may either be understood as placed (sam), or as there (sham); and so on ("Hieron. Ep. ad Damasum," 125; "Ad Evag." 126; "Comm. ad Heb. 111., 5," and so on).

Further: It is through the Talmud alone that we can know what the Jewish scholars wished their people to believe about the Bible; and, certainly, the collection of Jewish lore called by that name was not heard of until the early Age of Publication, when it was denounced by Christian scholars as entirely inconsistent with Christianity. The Talmudic tracts give evidence that mere Hebrew caligraphy is still imperfect, and that correct readings have not been fixed, in many a passage. The good Rabbis veil their critical observations, such as they are, under the figure of the "Tradition of Moses from Mount Sinai."


Israel Finkelstein (University of Tel-Aviv), Bible Unearthed

http://books.google.ro/books?id=lu6ywyJr0CMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=israel+finkelstein+bible+unearthed&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4DgYVNPGD6viywOQ94HACA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=israel%20finkelstein%20bible%20unearthed&f=false

The Bible Unearthed begins by considering what it terms the 'preamble' of the bible "the Book of Genesis" and its relationship to archaeological evidence for the context in which its narratives are set. Archaeological discoveries about society and culture in the ancient near east lead the authors to point out a number of anachronisms, suggestive that the narratives were actually set down in the 9th-7th centuries:

   * Aramaeans are frequently mentioned, but no ancient text mentions them until around 1100BCE, and they only begin to dominate Israel's northern borders after the 9th century BCE.

    * The text describes the early origin of the neighbouring kingdom of Edom, but Assyrian records show that Edom only came into existence after the conquest of the region by Assyria; before then it was without functioning kings, wasn't a distinct state, and archaeological evidence shows that the territory was only sparsely populated.

    * The Joseph story refers to camel-based traders carrying gum, balm, and myrrh, an unlikely event for the first millennium, but quite common in the 8th-7th centuries BCE, when Assyrian hegemony enabled this Arabian trade to flourish into a major industry.

    * The land of Goshen has a name that comes from an Arabic group who only dominated the Nile Delta in the 6th and 5th centuries.

    * The Egyptian Pharaoh is portrayed as fearing invasion from the east, even though Egypt's territory stretched to the northern parts of Canaan, with its main threat consequently being from the north, until the 7th century

The book comments that this corresponds with the documentary hypothesis, in which textual scholarship argues for the majority of the first five biblical books being written between the 8th and 6th centuries.

Finkelstein and Silberman argue that instead of the Israelites conquering Canaan after the Exodus (as suggested by the book of Joshua), most of them had in fact always been there; the Israelites were simply Canaanites who developed into a distinct culture. Recent surveys of long-term settlement patterns in the Israelite heartlands show no sign of violent invasion or even peaceful infiltration, but rather a sudden demographic transformation about 1200 BCE in which villages appear in the previously unpopulated highlands;these settlements have a similar appearance to modern Bedouin camps, suggesting that the inhabitants were once pastoral nomads, driven to take up farming by the Late Bronze Age collapse of the Canaanite city-culture.


Dr. Gunnar Heinsohn has already demonstrated in his best known work (http://www.specialtyinterests.net/heinsohn.html ) that the entire historical period of 2100 BC - 600 BC was invented:

"Heinsohn has made a very important contribution to the revisionist debate by focussing attention on the evidence of stratigraphy outside Egypt. Dayton had uncovered many examples in museums around the world where near identical ancient artefacts of very similar styles and manufacturing techniques were given dates which varied sometimes by as much as 1000-1500 years. Heinsohn, from an extensive study of archaeological reports from most of the better known sites across Asia Minor, showed how these anachronisms had arisen. At site after site, archaeologists had artificially increased the age of the lower strata by inserting, without supporting evidence, 'occupation gaps' of many centuries. They did this in order to meet the expectations of excessive antiquity among historians, who had used Biblically derived dates for Abraham (c. 2100), initially seen as broadly contemporary with the great Assyrian king Hammurabi. Using this elongated time frame, great empires of the past such as the Sumerians, Akkadians and Old Babylonians were invented by late 19th C and early 20th C scholars to fill the historical voids. The ancient Greek and Roman historians, not surprisingly, knew nothing of these ancient peoples. Sumerian, said Heinsohn, 'is the language of the well known Kassite/Chaldeans, whose literacy deserves its fame'.

He showed that the Bronze Age started in China and Mesoamerica some 1500 years later than in the Near East and proposed this gap be largely closed by lowering the ages of the Mediterranean civilisations. He cited the Indus Valley where the early period civilisations, dated from Mesopotamian seals to c. 2400BC, sit right underneath the Buddhist strata of 7-6C. Seals from Mesopotamia are found in the Indus valley and in Mesopotamia there are seals from the Indus Valley. So the excavators have to say they have an occupation gap of some 1700 years. Thus some sites only about 30km apart have chronologies some 1500 years apart. But in the same strata, supposedly 1500 years apart, they frequently find the same pottery.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 01:27:39 PM by sandokhan »

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #538 on: September 16, 2014, 03:21:46 PM »
You are making the mistake of assuming I accept ANY "modern day liberal Biblical scholarship". I do not. My rejection of that essentially puts your entire post into the round file, although I don't deny that the original core text may have been embroidered by later hands in the following centuries after Moses finished writing it.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 03:24:42 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

Ghost of V

Re: Ask a Jew anything.
« Reply #539 on: September 16, 2014, 04:39:36 PM »
sandokhan, you should really cite your sources for the unquoted parts of your post.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 04:57:09 PM by Vauxhall »