Re: Google Maps
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2018, 09:40:19 AM »
We are asking you, our users, for knowledge to explain, show and demonstrate the truth of all phenomena and mapping systems.
You just need to refer to all the information online.

This idea that you are trying to make the discussions some sort of test for users here does not work.

Re: Google Maps
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2018, 10:33:58 AM »
Rowbotham didn't have the funds and resources to map and decipher the world on his own. He was just a medical doctor
So he had no scientific training and didn't work professionally as a scientist.
And no serious scientists at his time or since agreed with his ideas.
Are you seeing a problem here with placing so much faith in him and his ideas?

This society is about the search for knowledge.
And yet when shown multiple simple, quick and cheap ways to test the assertion that the horizon always rises to eye level you refused to try any of them, just saying you were too busy. You don't seem that bothered about searching for knowledge

Quote
The bottomline is that all of goods and human transport/navigation work extremely well under Globe theory/maps
If this is the claim, then those who profess that claim should be expected to show that it works well for all situations, and is a globe theory or a map.
OK. Well, I was in Dubai on a work trip recently. In both directions at all times on the flights a map was displayed showing the route the plane was taking, it showed us where we were at all times, how fast we were going, our time to destination. And we got there exactly when they said we would. And, of course, the map was a globe. How did all that work if the earth was flat? Are they "in on it"?
I think we'd know about it if the global transport industry shipping goods and people around the world simply didn't work.

And I, and we, admit that the matter of navigation is beyond our current power to entirely decipher with our resources available.
But it has been deciphered by mapping the world as a globe and it demonstrably works.

I did provide a source which stated that there were transformations that were not available to the public.
Why are transformations necessary? On a flat earth you'd just need to scale, not transform.

That is not a positive claim. That is a negative claim. One may even say that all human knowledge is false, with that statement being absolutely true. Negative claims are true by default. "Not" is the default. Ghosts do not exist by default. Any possible knowledge must be first demonstrated true, for it to be true.
There's a difference between ghosts and goats.
Ghosts do not exist by default because they cannot be seen or observed.
If people claim to have seen/experiences ghosts then the burden of proof is on them.
Goats do exist by default because they can be seen and observed.
If people claim that goats are fake then the burden of proof is on them.
The globe earth has been observed. Not by me but by hundreds of people, 7 of whom were space tourists and paid for the privilege.
I've personally seen a space shuttle take off.
There is endless film and photos of the globe earth. If your assertion is that all these people are lying and that all this footage is fake then the burden of proof is on you.

It pulls up the flat map for my area and projects the globe's coordinates upon it.
Again, why is any projection needed?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Google Maps
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2018, 10:58:36 AM »
We would need a copy of a piece of software such as ARCGIS to see the underlying flat maps used and those transformations, assuming all transformations exist for that situation. I don't have it. We have read about them already, and know that this is how it works. Future discovery on the matter, if interested, is up to you.

I don't have ARCGIS, but I do have an equivalent GIS package - QGIS. What exactly do you want to see? I can easily take screenshots.

I don't understand what you mean by "see the underlying flat maps used".

When constructing a map with a GIS package such as ARCGIS or QGIS, you choose the coordinate system and projection for the project, then add various layers, each of which might be in a different coordinate system and then reproject everything to the coordinate system of the project.

To show a flight path for example, you'd add a vector layer and then add a multi-segment line to the layer. The points can be specified in either easting/northing for a projected cartesian coordinate system or lat/long for a non-projected coordinate system, but for a flight path, I'd definitely choose the latter - much simpler to work with. Bottom line is any "map" in GIS is likely to be composed of data from a mix of projected or non-projected source material.

Re: Google Maps
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2018, 12:25:26 PM »
We would need a copy of a piece of software such as ARCGIS to see the underlying flat maps used and those transformations, assuming all transformations exist for that situation. I don't have it. We have read about them already, and know that this is how it works. Future discovery on the matter, if interested, is up to you.
QGIS is free.  See https://www.qgis.org/en/site/

Please let us know what you find.

*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 786
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: Google Maps
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2018, 02:48:38 PM »
The GIS software is available but its all based upon the globe earth model.  All the latitude & longitude values could be processed as a 3 dimensional vector originating from the center of the earth to the location of the coordinates.  Distances are just the dot multiplication of those two vectors.  Any answers you get are just a great circle route and spherical.  That's the real problem with the flat earth model using any GIS data.  The first thing that would have to happen would be to transform the spherical GIS data to a 2 dimensional flat earth model.  That's where you throw away all the accuracy and that's why the flat earth paradigm just isn't viable.  The rules for spherical trigonometry are different from plane trigonometry.  You can philosophize all you want about the flat earth model but it doesn't work mathematically and any maps made would be useless for anything but as a novelty. Any flat earth map makers would be broke and/or sued after the users of their maps keep getting lost.     
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 02:51:06 PM by RonJ »
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

*

Offline markjo

  • Purgatory
  • *
  • Posts: 3856
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile
Re: Google Maps
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2018, 03:07:41 PM »
Tom, here's a simple question for you.  According to DistanceFromTo.net, the shortest distance from San Francisco to Tokyo is 5151 miles (8290 km).  Do you believe that this quoted distance is correct according to the Flat Earth model?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: Google Maps
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2018, 04:41:51 PM »
The GIS software is available but its all based upon the globe earth model.

Very true, however it's perfectly normal using GIS software to add a layer from some external source which is available in a projected CRS (coordinate reference system) e.g a Mercator projection. So long as you tell the GIS software exactly what the CRS is (which must include the underlying reference ellipsoid being used), you can use it in your project and combine it with other data either projected (x/y coordinates) or non-projected (lat/long). You can even mix different datums, so you could combine NAD83 with WGS84 quite happily. That's the power of GIS software in a nutshell.

At the end of the day a position on the Earth in one CRS can be translated to the equivalent position in another CRS. GIS does this for you.

Fundamentally, as you rightly say, under the hood the model being used is entirely a globe earth model. But I think Tom is confusing the fact that GIS software can deal with "flat" data if necessary (by transforming/reprojecting) and believing that this means it's entirely based on a flat model - which it so obviously isn't.

*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 786
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: Google Maps
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2018, 05:49:14 PM »
Yea, I know it was possible to do multiple layers with the GIS software.  However before doing any presentation all the data would have to be transformed between the existing spherical basis to a flat basis.  Over small distances that difference would be small and you could probably sneak it by.  Any map that was of a larger area, like the United States, would be immediately busted because the known distances between points would be obviously incorrect.  Australia and New Zealand maps would be comical because of the diverging longitude lines the flat earth paradigm dictates.   

The geodetic data is available as is the software to process and transform it. The presentation part is well covered by the GIS software.  Of course the elephant hiding in the closet is doing a spherical to flat transform that can't be immediately deemed ridiculous.  It would be like mathematically trying to get a square peg in a round hole.

Of course all this fosters controversy and this site thrives on that.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

*

Offline TomInAustin

  • *
  • Posts: 871
  • Round Duh
    • View Profile
Re: Google Maps
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2018, 05:51:17 PM »
Rowbotham didn't have the funds and resources to map and decipher the world on his own. He was just a medical doctor.


You should have no problem proving he was a medical doctor right?  You know I have nothing but respect for you Tom (as I say often in AR) but there is no evidence that he was anything but a fraud.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6523
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Google Maps
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2018, 06:01:35 PM »
Rowbotham didn't have the funds and resources to map and decipher the world on his own. He was just a medical doctor.


You should have no problem proving he was a medical doctor right?  You know I have nothing but respect for you Tom (as I say often in AR) but there is no evidence that he was anything but a fraud.

I will suggest that you look further into the matter.

The American Association for the Advancement of Science lists him as Dr. Samuel Rowbotham in his 1885 obituary, as does the obit in Eng. Mechanic and World of Science. The Bookseller obituary confirms he was a practicing doctor of medicine as a "legitimate profession with immense success."

Rowbotham's work is cited in medical texts.

https://books.google.com/books?id=atPGizuKTYoC&dq=Rowbotham%20phosphorus&pg=PA650#v=onepage&q=Rowbotham%20phosphorus&f=false



Please tell us, since you know, how Rowbotham went his entire career pretending to be a medical doctor and treated people with medicine, and how he got away with it, especially with all of the scrutiny he was under by the entire world?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 06:43:27 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 659
    • View Profile
Re: Google Maps
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2018, 06:03:09 PM »
You are claiming our modern society exists without a map of this planet. Is that not a positive claim? Do you have evidence that such a society exists?
I don't believe that I said that. But that would be a negative claim.

There is no Flat Earth Map.

Again I refute this claim. There is a FLAT 2d map of the earth. Allow me to provide evidence of this claim:

www.mapquest.com


Actually, you don't. Choose your FE model and just show the route from SFO to Tokyo. I don't need any ARCGIS maps to show you the route, therefore you shouldn't need them either. What's the FE route, SFO to Tokyo? It's a flight that occurs a dozen times per day. Simple as that.

The answer is: ?

Lack of available research and resources.

Tom do you have any evidence that there is a lack of available research and resources? Please provide evidence for your positive claims.


Maybe you didn't know but there are FLAT 2d maps which show the flight path between SFO and Tokyo.


Allow me to provide evidence of my positive claim:





In order to make a map with multiple points we will need to know many more details about all flights and  routes and possibilities. 

Do you have any evidence that details about all flights and routes is necessary to make a map? Please provide evidence for your positive claims.


How did we make a map before planes?

What are we to do when our users lack knowledge to assist?

I am assisting by pointing out that there already is an accurate FLAT 2d map of the earth. Please note that this map does not show the earth as a sphere. This map shows the earth as a FLAT plane. Allow me to provide the evidence:

www.mapquest.com


The other data is needed to know what polar projection or possible continetal layout to use.

Do you have any evidence that other data is needed to know the polar projection or continental layout? You need to provide evidence for these positive claims.



I've been on that route myself by sea.  The maps we used were the standard WGS84 charts.  Accuracy is good.  They are globe earth maps.  Where are the flat earth versions?

It was demonstrated to use flat maps of the earth. Demonstrated. Unlike the hundreds of claims of our opponents.

Tom do you have any evidence that shows that it was it was demonstrated to use flat maps of the earth? Please provide evidence of your positive claims.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6523
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Google Maps
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2018, 06:11:40 PM »
Evidence was provided for the flat maps. See the discussions that you linked and that you provided in the second post of this thread.

All other claims you are pointing out from me are of the negative variety, and therefore, are unimpeached until impeached.

If you are asking me whether that map you posted in that mapquest link looks flat, sure it does.

Asking me how we made maps before planes sounds like an educational topic that you should engage in and report back to us about.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 06:48:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

ShootingStar

Re: Google Maps
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2018, 06:46:39 PM »
This thread seems to be getting more and more involved. Going back to my original post, I would have thought that an organisation such as Google would not have modeled their mapping system on a global system if they did not have reasonable grounds for doing so.

So I put the challenge to you Tom...please provide us with THE single best piece of evidence that convinces YOU that the Earth is flat? Precise, clear and to the point please.

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 659
    • View Profile
Re: Google Maps
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2018, 06:50:52 PM »
This thread seems to be getting more and more involved. Going back to my original post, I would have thought that an organisation such as Google would not have modeled their mapping system on a global system if they did not have reasonable grounds for doing so.

So I put the challenge to you Tom...please provide us with THE single best piece of evidence that convinces YOU that the Earth is flat? Precise, clear and to the point please.

I'm not TOM but finding evidence that supports a flat earth is easy.
Here's a youtube video with 200:




*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6523
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Google Maps
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2018, 06:51:43 PM »
This thread seems to be getting more and more involved. Going back to my original post, I would have thought that an organisation such as Google would not have modeled their mapping system on a global system if they did not have reasonable grounds for doing so.

So I put the challenge to you Tom...please provide us with THE single best piece of evidence that convinces YOU that the Earth is flat? Precise, clear and to the point please.

There is no single piece of evidence. The evidence is cumulative.

First admit that you have no knowledge. Then look out your window. Then go on a journey to discover what the truth may be on your own, for your own self.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 06:54:13 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 659
    • View Profile
Re: Google Maps
« Reply #75 on: December 20, 2018, 06:53:26 PM »
Evidence was provided for the flat maps. See the discussions that you linked and that you provided in the second post of this thread.

All other claims you are pointing out from me are of the negative variety, and therefore, are unimpeached until impeached.

If you are asking me whether that map you posted in that mapquest link looks flat, sure it does.

Asking me how we made maps before planes sounds like an educational topic that you should engage in and report back to us about.

If the mapquest link looks FLAT (and also represents the earth as a FLAT plane) then how can you make a claim that there is no flat earth map?
Did you spend any time comparing the mapquest data to your neighborhood to what you know about your neighborhood?

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6523
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Google Maps
« Reply #76 on: December 20, 2018, 07:13:10 PM »
Evidence was provided for the flat maps. See the discussions that you linked and that you provided in the second post of this thread.

All other claims you are pointing out from me are of the negative variety, and therefore, are unimpeached until impeached.

If you are asking me whether that map you posted in that mapquest link looks flat, sure it does.

Asking me how we made maps before planes sounds like an educational topic that you should engage in and report back to us about.

If the mapquest link looks FLAT (and also represents the earth as a FLAT plane) then how can you make a claim that there is no flat earth map?
Did you spend any time comparing the mapquest data to your neighborhood to what you know about your neighborhood?

If your intent is to profess the pac-man style Flat Earth models, I cannot contradict you. Who is qualified to tell you whether the universe ends and repeats on itself? Not me.

If you are asking for commentary on your idea, my only comment on that matter is that the particular path the planes make to their destination on the maps and videos you posted do suggest, to me, that either the planes are traveling in that manner according to the beliefs of the operators, or, that some of those areas may be pulled around what one thinks are the North or South Poles.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 07:18:25 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 659
    • View Profile
Re: Google Maps
« Reply #77 on: December 20, 2018, 07:17:33 PM »

If your intent is to profess the pac-man style Flat Earth models, feel free. I cannot contradict you. Who is qualified to tell you that the universe does not end and repeat on itself? Not me.

If you are asking for commentary, my only comment on that matter is that the particular path the planes make to their destination on the maps and videos you posted do suggest, to me, that either the planes are traveling in that manner according to the beliefs of the operators, or that some of those areas may be curved around what one thinks are the North or South Poles.

My intent is to try to find out why you believe there is no map which represents the earth as a FLAT surface. Why are you unable to acknowledge that FLAT maps of the entire earth do exist after I have presented you with several?

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6523
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile

If your intent is to profess the pac-man style Flat Earth models, feel free. I cannot contradict you. Who is qualified to tell you that the universe does not end and repeat on itself? Not me.

If you are asking for commentary, my only comment on that matter is that the particular path the planes make to their destination on the maps and videos you posted do suggest, to me, that either the planes are traveling in that manner according to the beliefs of the operators, or that some of those areas may be curved around what one thinks are the North or South Poles.

My intent is to try to find out why you believe there is no map which represents the earth as a FLAT surface. Why are you unable to acknowledge that FLAT maps of the entire earth do exist after I have presented you with several?

There isn't a map that the Flat Earth movement agrees on, clearly. See the rest of the sentence that you had quoted.

One may take a blank piece of paper and write "earth map" onto it. Is that the Flat Earth map, or a Flat Earth map? In, such discussions, would we talking be talking about "the" map, or "a" possible map?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 07:29:57 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Google Maps
« Reply #79 on: December 20, 2018, 07:29:42 PM »
Rowbotham didn't have the funds and resources to map and decipher the world on his own. He was just a medical doctor.


You should have no problem proving he was a medical doctor right?  You know I have nothing but respect for you Tom (as I say often in AR) but there is no evidence that he was anything but a fraud.

I will suggest that you look further into the matter.

The American Association for the Advancement of Science lists him as Dr. Samuel Rowbotham in his 1885 obituary, as does the obit in Eng. Mechanic and World of Science. The Bookseller obituary confirms he was a practicing doctor of medicine as a "legitimate profession with immense success."

Rowbotham's work is cited in medical texts.

https://books.google.com/books?id=atPGizuKTYoC&dq=Rowbotham%20phosphorus&pg=PA650#v=onepage&q=Rowbotham%20phosphorus&f=false


So you agree that he was not a professional scientist and thus not qualified to try and refute the entirety of scientific knowledge.
The lack of scientific background wouldn't be so big a problem if any other serious scientists at the time or since had taken his ideas seriously.
But they haven't.
Because they have no veracity and are so easily proven false. Bobby has very clearly shown the claim about horizon at eye level as false and he is an amateur, the fact you have refused to do your own tests about that is telling.

Quote
Please tell us, since you know, how Rowbotham went his entire career pretending to be a medical doctor and treated people with medicine, and how he got away with it, especially with all of the scrutiny he was under by the entire world?
I don't think most of the entire world had heard of him. He is quite rightly forgotten by history, I'd never heard of him till I came here.
And this question is ironic when you're claiming a massive global conspiracy about space travel and satellites and so on.
They seem to be getting away with it in the sense that only a tiny minority of scientific illiterates are claiming it's all a hoax.
Some people are just good conmen - watch "Catch Me If You Can", that dude actually got hired as a doctor and worked for some time in a hospital.

I'm not actually saying Rowbotham was a conman - well, he was, but he might well also have been a medical doctor. But I wouldn't expect a medical doctor to be qualified to write a book which revolutionises the scientific community, and he didn't.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.