ShootingStar

Google Maps
« on: December 18, 2018, 05:42:14 PM »
If you zoom out far enough in Google Earth or Google Maps you will quickly see the Earth become a spherical shape. Does this mean then that FE believers don't use what is probably the worlds most used digital mapping system?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2018, 10:14:17 PM »
If you zoom out far enough in Google Earth or Google Maps you will quickly see the Earth become a spherical shape. Does this mean then that FE believers don't use what is probably the worlds most used digital mapping system?

It's widely accepted, among the flat earth community, that no map of the earth exists.


Yahoo maps is pretty much the same. The main difference is that if you zoom out the earth is not a sphere. The earth is show as a flat 2d image. Why this could not be used as a flat earth map is totally beyond me. It says nothing about the shape of the earth.

https://search.yahoo.com/search/?p=maps


I've used this map, or several other maps which are are 2d to navigate thousands and thousands of square miles of this earth by plane, train, bus, and car in multiple continents.

Take Tom Bishop for example. He is the most vocal FE supporter here. His belief is that:



-no one has created a map.
-There is no map creating budget.
-If a map is created and it does not match reality then there are almost an infinite number of continental configurations and we just have to try another one
-there are small flat earth maps being used for navigation on small scale but no global maps. The coordinates are not known or are classified.












We can use maps to travel from Kansas to Alaska
then use that exact same map to travel from Alaska to Brazil
then use that exact same map to travel to and from all the continents and countries on earth.

It seems to me like someone has pieced together one full map of locations of all of the countries on earth. Do you disagree?

I don't agree that all way-points are available. Not only is it based on flat maps, some of the coordinate transformations are actually classified by government.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 10:15:51 PM by iamcpc »

ShootingStar

Re: Google Maps
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2018, 12:01:46 AM »
Yes I have read many of Mr Bishops comments and they are interesting to say the least. I have seen that he often 'defends' most of the statements he makes my simply claiming that are personal opinions. That though doesn't make him right. It is my personal opinion that the Earth is a sphere (well... oblate spheroid in the sense that the polar diameter is slightly less than the equatorial).

I'm pretty sure that the flat earth community is not a large one and when one reads through many of the claims made in the FEW pages, that is hardly surprising. They seem to rely very heavily on material which is out dated and in many cases quite simply wrong. On this basis the FE 'theory' is more an ideology.  The claims made by FE theorists seem to change more often that the British weather!  After reading  "If a map is created and it does not match reality then there are almost an infinite number of continental configurations and we just have to try another one"  the old saying about trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole comes very much to mind!

It concerns me when you say about FE believers don't accept that any map of the Earth actually exists. What is the circular 'monopole' model of the Earth featured in FEW if that is not some kind of world map?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 12:04:55 AM by ShootingStar »

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2018, 12:14:48 AM »
It concerns me when you say about FE believers don't accept that any map of the Earth actually exists. What is the circular 'monopole' model of the Earth featured in FEW if that is not some kind of world map?

It's an idea of what the flat earth might possibly maybe kinda sort look like. When you bring up questions about the impossibility travel between locations on the edge of the 'monopole' model.  (specifically impossible distances corroborated by travel times, shipping times, cartography, and surveying) the response is:

1. That is not the map of the earth.
2. There is no map of the earth
3. You have disproved continental configuration 21398572938759287 what about continental configuration 21398572938759288?

What really blows my mind is that you can get on a plane in America and fly to virtually any country on earth yet people believe there is no map of the earth.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 12:16:41 AM by iamcpc »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2018, 12:19:44 AM »
Rowbotham didn't have the funds and resources to map and decipher the world on his own. He was just a medical doctor. Nor has any Flat Earther since. FET doesn't have billions of dollars being pumped into it like RET, to develop construct. Rowbotham interpreted what was available to him, just like today.

RET has layers and layers of assumptions and clockwork; the goal here is to decipher the truth.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 12:22:18 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Google Maps
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2018, 12:21:44 AM »
Rowbotham didn't have the funds and resources to map and decipher the world on his own. He was just a medical doctor. Nor has any Flat Earther since. FET doesn't have billions of dollars being pumped into it like RET, to get it to work.

RET has layers and layers of assumptions and clockwork; the goal here is to decipher the truth.
How would you start if the funding was available?  What equipment would you use?

ShootingStar

Re: Google Maps
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2018, 01:11:39 AM »
Interesting comments yet again Tom. You talk about funding as if  RET were some kind of research project rather than modern scientific fact.

If Rowbotham is one of the leading figures of FET then that probably explains a lot about why the global opinion about a flat Earth has gone a little bit err well flat.

I don't know who you are trying to convince more, us or yourself.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2018, 03:41:02 AM »
I've proved several times using Rowbotham's own procedures and tables that the earth is a sphere.  All Rowbotham had to do was read his own book and make a couple of simple corrections in the calculations.  With that knowledge he could have started producing an accurate map.  Maybe Rowbotham just had the book 'ghost written' and maybe that's the source of the 'errors'. Who knows.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2018, 04:22:13 PM »
Rowbotham didn't have the funds and resources to map and decipher the world on his own. He was just a medical doctor. Nor has any Flat Earther since. FET doesn't have billions of dollars being pumped into it like RET, to develop construct. Rowbotham interpreted what was available to him, just like today.

RET has layers and layers of assumptions and clockwork; the goal here is to decipher the truth.

What you have available to you today is the ability to fly from America to over 150 different countries on every continent on earth.
Then the ability to fly from those countries back to America. I don't understand how you can admit that this is possible and does happen every day but are unable to admit that there is some sort of a map that these planes are using.




First off do you have any evidence that all cartographers and modern map makers were NOT flat earthers?
Do you have any evidence that making a map costs billions of dollars?
Do you have any evidence that no one has put money into making a flat map?


Tom, are the maps that I've linked flat maps or not? If they are not flat maps please tell me why.
(please note that EVERY one of these maps represents a 2d earth not a sphere earth)
https://www.mapquest.com/
https://search.yahoo.com/search/?p=maps
http://suncalc.net/#/51.508,-0.125,2/2018.12.19/10:21


« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 04:32:44 PM by iamcpc »

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2018, 05:34:53 PM »
My guess is that cartographers are (round - flat) earth agnostic.  They just collect that data and organize it.  That data doesn't have to fit in any given category, it just has to accurately as possible match what is there.  In other words the cartographers are just the messenger.

The core question is:  Do the maps produced by the cartographers accurately match the real earth?

A flat earth person has access to the same data base that the round earth person does.  You don't have to collect your own survey data you just have to take that same data and produce a map that can accurately represent a distance and bearing between any two points on the map. 

You could produce a 'Flatle' map and compete with Google.  The main problem that I see with this procedure is that it would be impossible.  If you cut thru all the BS and get to the core of the question you will find that spherical trigonometry and plane trigonometry are mutually exclusive.  Spherical trigonometry accurately represents the data and can be used to determine the distance between any two coordinates on the earth.  That won't work with plane trigonometry.  The main problem is that spherical trigonometry involves 3 different variables.  You need an x,y, and z dimension.  Plane trigonometry only requires a x and y dimension.  You could massage all the survey data you want to produce a flat earth map, but it wouldn't be accurate because you are ignoring 33% of the data.

For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2018, 07:35:34 PM »
This society is about the search for knowledge. What is a latitude? What is a longitude? How was it originally calculated in relation to the celestial bodies, and what does it mean? What do latitude or longitude the formulas used in relation to the moon mean? What must it mean?

If you are to profess knowledge and truth then you should be expected to show and demonstrate knowledge of the coordinate systems used, the types of maps used, the jet streams, the nature of north and south and east and west, the admitted increase of time to flight times, the available routes, and knowledge of those which may be unavailable, as was mentioned by iampc above.

We all want to be educated on this matter. Unless you can teach to any reasonable thinking person, of how all of this works, then you have no knowledge.

If you happen to come to the conclusion that you have no knowledge, then you should admit as such, and then seek to know what you do not know.

"They must know..." is not enough. Show. Demonstrate. Tell us, so that multiple different people, even if I am excluded, may look at your information say that it is clearly the correct answer and all is unanimous. We have provided that platform for you here, and allow all to participate.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 08:07:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2018, 08:08:04 PM »
This society is about the search for knowledge. What is a latitude? What is a longitude? How was it originally calculated in relation to the celestial bodies, and what does it mean? What do latitude or longitude the formulas used in relation to the moon mean? What must it mean?

You're only a couple of Google searches away from this knowledge.

If you are to profess knowledge and truth then you should be expected to show and demonstrate knowledge of the coordinate systems used, the types of maps used, the jet streams, the nature of north and south and east and west, the admitted increase of time to flight times, the available routes, and knowledge of those which may be unavailable, as was mentioned by iampc above.

Search this forum, you will find the information you seek has been presented many, many times.

Unless you can teach to us, and explain to us, or any reasonable thinking person, how all of this works, then you have no knowledge.

Why is it up to us to teach you. Wouldn't the Zetetic way to be to find out for yourself? You don't believe the "teacher" anyway.

If you are to come to the conclusion that you have no knowledge, then you must admit as such, and seek to know what you do not know.

I would agree. And it seems like you're saying FE has no knowledge of a mapped world so then you must seek what you do not know.

"They must know..." is not enough. Show. Demonstrate. We have provided that platform for you here, and allow all to participate. Until done, messages which read as whining are likely of little value.

The bottomline is that all of goods and human transport/navigation work extremely well under Globe theory/maps. It is incumbent upon FE to show us a better way. Until FE can demonstrate how all of this works, no flat earth map means no flat earth. In the mean time, we'll keep going about our business under the guise of a spherical earth.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2018, 08:16:23 PM »
Quote
The bottomline is that all of goods and human transport/navigation work extremely well under Globe theory/maps

If this is the claim, then those who profess that claim should be expected to show that it works well for all situations, and is a globe theory or a map. The goal is to demonstrate our claims. All claims are in question here. If there is something which cannot be demonstrated, then it should be relegated to the status of unknown.

If a claim is stated without evidence then it is therefore discarded without evidence.

This is the root of Zetetic philosophy, applies to not only this, but to many subjects. Of all human knowledge and the sciences. A philosophy which is, perhaps, possibly unattainable on some matters, yet remains as the key to truth and understanding.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 08:46:06 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2018, 08:19:14 PM »
Quote
The bottomline is that all of goods and human transport/navigation work extremely well under Globe theory/maps

If this is the claim, then those who profess that claims should be expected to show that it works well for all situations, and is a globe theory or a map. The goal is to demonstrate our claims. All claims are in question here.

If a matter is stated without evidence than it is discarded without evidence.

This is the root of Zetetic philosophy, applies to not only this, but to many subjects. Of all human knowledge and the sciences. A philosophy which is, perhaps, possibly unattainable on some matters, yet remains as the key to truth and understanding.

Perhaps you should address the OP's question first.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2018, 08:41:03 PM »
Quote
The bottomline is that all of goods and human transport/navigation work extremely well under Globe theory/maps

If this is the claim, then those who profess that claims should be expected to show that it works well for all situations, and is a globe theory or a map. The goal is to demonstrate our claims. All claims are in question here. If there is something which cannot be demonstrated, then it should be relegated to the status of unknown.

If a claim is stated without evidence then it is therefore discarded without evidence.

This is the root of Zetetic philosophy, applies to not only this, but to many subjects. Of all human knowledge and the sciences. A philosophy which is, perhaps, possibly unattainable on some matters, yet remains as the key to truth and understanding.

You make the claim that no flat map of the earth exists. Where is your evidence of such a claim?


I am making claim that there is a FLAT 2d map of the earth which is used for navigation all over the world. Allow me to present my evidence:
(please note that all the maps listed below show a FLAT 2d plane and not a sphere)

https://www.mapquest.com/
https://search.yahoo.com/search/?p=maps
http://suncalc.net/#/51.508,-0.125,2/2018.12.19/10:21

Will you please review www.mapquest.com. Please not that this map is a 2d FLAT plane and not a sphere. Please look on and around your neighborhood. Please use the FLAT 2d map (which is a representation of a FLAT plane and not a sphere) to look on and around locations that you have personally traveled. When you claim that no flat 2d map of the earth exists are you of the belief that:

1. www.mapquest.com does not exist?
2. is www.mapquest.com not a flat 2d map?
3. www.mapquest.com is not a map of the earth?
4. All of the above?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 08:48:37 PM by iamcpc »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2018, 09:12:58 PM »
Claiming that something does not exist is a negative claim. It is the positive claims which must be verified. "Not" is the default. Who must provide the evidence in a discussion of "ghosts exist" versus "ghosts do not exist"? Those with the positive claim.

I do try to provide evidence for my positive claims. And I, and we, admit that the matter of navigation is beond our current power to entirely decipher with our resources available, just as you must admit that you are unable to explain and answer all questions which are poised to you on that matter.

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Offline stack

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2018, 09:26:40 PM »
Claiming that something does not exist is a negative claim. It is the positive claims which must be verified. "Not" is the default. Who must provide the evidence in a discussion of "ghosts exist" versus "ghosts do not exist"? Those with the positive claim.

I do try to provide evidence for my positive claims. And I, and we, admit that the matter of navigation is beond our current power to entirely decipher with our resources available, just as you must admit that you are unable to explain and answer all questions which are poised to you on that matter.

What’s a question you have regarding this topic that hasn’t been answered?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: Google Maps
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2018, 09:40:46 PM »
Claiming that something does not exist is a negative claim. It is the positive claims which must be verified. "Not" is the default. Who must provide the evidence in a discussion of "ghosts exist" versus "ghosts do not exist"? Those with the positive claim.

I do try to provide evidence for my positive claims. And I, and we, admit that the matter of navigation is beond our current power to entirely decipher with our resources available, just as you must admit that you are unable to explain and answer all questions which are poised to you on that matter.
The angle of the sun, satellite dishes and measured distances all prove the shape of the earth.  Please state any of this you do not accept.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2018, 10:04:03 PM »
Claiming that something does not exist is a negative claim. It is the positive claims which must be verified. "Not" is the default. Who must provide the evidence in a discussion of "ghosts exist" versus "ghosts do not exist"? Those with the positive claim.

I do try to provide evidence for my positive claims. And I, and we, admit that the matter of navigation is beond our current power to entirely decipher with our resources available, just as you must admit that you are unable to explain and answer all questions which are poised to you on that matter.

What’s a question you have regarding this topic that hasn’t been answered?

This is a very vast topic. There is a lot.

The nature of the jet streams and the trade winds, for example. How were they measured and under what assumptions? There is a void of knowledge. Planes do use these on international flights and they do play a significant part. And they do travel in multiple directions in both the north and south, with common permanent streams of air. It is not enough to look at a map and see them moving with a number next to them. Doppler radar? Under what assumptions is that number derived from in the tools themselves? A spherical coordinate system of latitude and longitudes? Of particular weather models which interpret?

No claim or implication is made on what over-or-under estimations would be necessary for a Flat Earth for any particular model or layout. One would just like to know the answer.

This is just an example of the questions one would face when venturing to construct a map based on that kind of data. Many more like it.

Any answer given will just spawn 10 more on that topic, each of which will spawn 10 others, and one can see how the venture is fruitless. This is why this particular venture of creating a world model of all the earth is of low importance for me. Low resources, of available knowledge and manpower, are available to this society at this time. There are more tangible things to discuss.

There are those who do claim to know all answers here. And we ask to those who do: Tell us.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 10:29:41 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Google Maps
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2018, 10:29:15 PM »
The latitude & longitude system is completely arbitrary.  It could have been anything.  Probably the reason it exists in the current form is because it makes navigation at sea about as easy as possible.  The defined nautical mile of 1 minute of latitude makes things easier for the navigator using a straight edge & dividers to fix a position.  The system also made sense because it conformed to what was thought to be the form of the world when the maps were originally made.

Survey data for airports, for example, are readily available for all, at no cost.  It would be a straightforward process to take the latitude & longitude data and do a mathematical transform to a flat earth grid.  A desktop computer could do that quickly.  The cost would be nothing but your time to devise the mathematical transform and to write a program in something like C# or Python.   

The only real issue with any map is the question: can the navigator get a usable distance and bearing for point A to point B.  Everything else mentioned is a diversion plain & simple.  If the earth is flat and a piece of paper is flat then transforming a position on the flat earth to a position on a flat piece of paper is a simple process.  It's so simple even a cave man could do it.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.