Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #360 on: August 18, 2018, 02:02:17 AM »
Not going to get home in time for this. In LA tomorrow so that's out. Push to Sunday.

18:45 local on Sunday. Sun and Moon will be 110° apart in bearing and moon will be 58% illuminated in what should be an even more pronounced terminator apparently misaligned from the low angle, pre-sunset sun.



I understand the principle, but I still can't help but wonder if this string thing is going to really work to dispel the illusion.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 09:26:34 AM by Bobby Shafto »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #361 on: August 19, 2018, 10:37:11 PM »
Still planning to perform this experiment today, but yesterday I was at the Griffith Observatory in the afternoon. And it was a little before sunset when we were leaving when I decided to just take out my shoelace and give the string test a preliminary try. The sun was getting low to the Hollywood Hills, but it was still high enough and bright enough to cause sighting problems.

So I used a sign to block the sun, had my son hold one end taut at where the sun was occluded behind the sign, and I stretched it straight to line up with the moon (now in its 1st quarter).

This wasn't ideal since I found it very hard to capture the scene. Even in the fullest view, the sun and moon are at too wide an angle to get in a single shot without a distorting wide angle lens. Also, when zoomed out to show the length of string, it makes the moon too small to see its terminator.  Zooming in, and you lose simultaneous focus on the string and moon. I tried different aperture settings and focal lengths, but I was limited in time so this is the best I could do. Hoping for better performance this evening under a more controlled setting, but this might serve as a precursor as to what to expect.

Here's a crude "panorama" of the moon-to-sun, which formed an angle greater than 90°



I added a little inset zoom of the moon to help make the terminator line more visible. But lacking index/reference points between images, I can't be sure I've aligned the separate images correctly. In fact, I'm almost sure I haven't since the moon should be higher relative to the flat lateral span traced from the sun. Still, even when skewed lower I think the illusion is still there since the shadow line on the moon still looks like it is perpendicular to a line that points higher than the sun. Right? Looks like it's pointing toward the upper right hand corner of the "panoramic" composite. And that's how it looked in real life too. I needed to explain to several curious people who asked what I was doing and all agreed that it did look like the moon's terminator wasn't aligned with the sun. So the illusion is real.

But looking across the stretched string, which I avow was straight and taut:



That's my hand holding the string aligned with the moon straight out and up in front of me. My son's hand is holding the other end which was about level with my head and off my right shoulder.

It lines up:


« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 10:40:31 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #362 on: August 20, 2018, 05:31:36 AM »
Easier to see if you do it yourself than to try to photograph or record it.



« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 05:43:37 AM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #363 on: August 20, 2018, 06:07:10 AM »
Thanks for getting some video of this. Here is my opinion of this:

Isn't that just the close range ball-perspective example, just with a line that extends outwards? The ball on the stick that is at an unnatural perspective angle pointing away from the sun suggests pretty clearly that this is, in fact, the same experiment.

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #364 on: August 20, 2018, 06:35:57 AM »
Thanks for getting some video of this. Here is my opinion of this:

Isn't that just the close range ball-perspective example, just with a line that extends outwards? The ball on the stick that is at an unnatural perspective angle pointing away from the sun suggests pretty clearly that this is, in fact, the same experiment.

Yes. If i understand you right, they are, but with the addition of the string to show that the terminator aligns with a straight line toward the sun, because it sure doesn't look like it'll work. It looks like the line will extend above to where the sun is. But it doesn't. It aligns.

I don't know what "unnatural perspective angle" means. In the 3rd axis (depth) of 3 dimensions, the line from surrogate moon to surrogate sun isn't the same as that of actual moon to actual sun because the balls on stakes are not nearly at distances to scale of the actual moon and sun. If that's what you mean, that doesn't matter, as long as the line between them falls on the same plane. We aren't perceiving the depth. That's part of the reason for the illusion. The other is the bearing line to the moon and the sun is a wide field of view (90° or greater), which requires panning. The lack of depth perception of the moon and sun away from us is exaggerated by that panning, which itself "curves" space when it gets collapsed into a 2D projection, either on a computer screen, photograph or just by our eyes looking up at the "celestial sphere".

You have some objection about "close perspective" being different from perspective at distances, I know. I don't get that, but I know you're committed to it so I'm not expecting this demo to convince you of anything. I just wanted to do this for myself mainly since even though I don't agree with you and do think I understand why the illusion happens, I needed to see it for myself. Even if you don't accept the why of it, it should demo that whatever the reason, the moon's terminator is not misaligned with the sun.

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #365 on: August 20, 2018, 06:40:11 AM »
Post script: I don't think this is even a round earth vs. flat earth thing. I believe the explanation works whether talking about a spherical earth with a distant moon and much more distant sun or a flat earth with relatively nearby moon+sun. If the explanation didn't work for round earth, it wouldn't work for flat earth either and both models would struggle to explain it.

In other words, like the moon 'tilt' phenomenon, I don't think this is a distinguishing feature between round and flat earths. All I think it does is dispel the "need" for a self-illumination moon. It's clear (to me anyway) that this proves the sun illuminates the moon.

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #366 on: August 20, 2018, 11:05:50 AM »
This is great work, Bobby.
I don’t know what close range perspective effect means. The original question was how come the terminator of the moon doesn’t line up with where the sun is. If the moon is being lit by the sun then it should. Your experiment proves that even though it may look like there is no alignment, a straight line between the moon and the sun does line up and the apparent lack of alignment is in fact an optical illusion. This is another good example why the FE premise of trusting one’s senses is flawed. Our senses our limited and they can be tricked.

Also, if this WAS a problem then it would be a problem for the FE moon too which is also lit by the sun in most FE models.
"This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement" - Tom Bishop

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #367 on: August 20, 2018, 11:27:22 AM »
Isn't that just the close range ball-perspective example, just with a line that extends outwards?

So what if it is a "close range ball-perspective example"? What does that tell us?

The ball on the stick that is at an unnatural perspective angle pointing away from the sun suggests pretty clearly that this is, in fact, the same experiment.

Did anyone claim it to be a different experiment?

Besides which, what "unnatural perspective angle" are you talking about?

It's a sphere. How can you hold it at any specific "angle"?  It's the same, whichever way you hold it.

Now, about that Venus thread...
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Offline edby

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #368 on: August 20, 2018, 01:52:16 PM »
This is great work Bobby. Still puzzling about why it occurs, or in what sense it really is an illusion. I am thinking of two huge hoops, one of which is congruent with the horizon line, the other of which is congruent with your string. The hoops will intersect at the far east, and the far west (assuming the sun setting directly west).

Now imagine the whole earth is removed, and we just have the two hoops. Does the second still appear curved, but the first not? But the principle of sufficient reason suggests there is no difference between the two.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #369 on: August 20, 2018, 02:26:36 PM »
This is great work Bobby. Still puzzling about why it occurs, or in what sense it really is an illusion.

Think of the three bodies, Earth, Moon and Sun, as three points of a triangle.

One side connects the Moon and Sun, and the illuminated portion of the Moon is always aligned with that line. The central point of the illuminated surface is always the closest point of the Moon toward the Sun.

You, the observer, or the Earth itself, are at the point of the triangle opposite this side, but you're most likely not aligned with either the plane of the triangle, nor a perpendicular drawn to that plane. You're most likely looking at the opposite side of the triangle from an angle, to start with, and you're most likely either above or below the plane of the triangle to a certain extent.

Your viewpoint of the Moon will vary according to the Moon's position with respect to Earth's orbit (whereabouts in its phase it is, and its attitude with respect to the ecliptic), your observational latitude above or below the equator, the time of day or night.

So the Moon sometimes looks skew-whiff. But it's just down to how you're looking at it. If you could drift out in space, in perfect alignment with it, or it and the Sun, there would be no illusion.   
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #370 on: August 20, 2018, 02:41:02 PM »
I made a crude 3D model of my set up, and added a second set of balls on stakes at random distances away. As long as you get the elevation angles right, the distance doesn't matter. You just need the straight line to be coincident with the same inclined plane formed by the moon, sun and your eye (camera).





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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #371 on: August 31, 2018, 11:27:09 AM »
Tumeni posted this in another thread; related to the moon terminator illusion:

I made up an artificial Moon which will better illustrate shadows than the baseball previously used;



Different day, different month, same result. Artificial Moon held up in sunlight on Earth matches the Moon in the sky. No "perspective effects" involved

You are likely creating a perspective effect that points upwards when you hold it at that location.

Consider the following image. It shows that holding it at position close to the camera and above the center would cause the ball or object to point upwards. It also shows that a greater displacement is required to create perspective effects when bodies are further from the observer, which we were talking about earlier in this thread.



To the response of "just extend those pencils out to the moon," we saw in another thread that the perspective of the moon in the moon terminator illusion changes, and is not in one single perspective position at all times.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #372 on: August 31, 2018, 11:52:35 AM »
You are likely creating a perspective effect that points upwards when you hold it at that location.

So are you suggesting I hold it at a different location? If so, where?

Do you assert that this "perspective effect" will make the shadow on the artificial moon look any different from the one on the real moon?

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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #373 on: August 31, 2018, 12:07:21 PM »
The pencil diagram and explanation of what happens when you move the pencil off-axis is irrelevant, because I'm not concerned with what happens if I move the baseball off line.

The idea, as I've said to you more than once already, is to place it in alignment with the eye-moon sightline. Obviously this is impossible, as the baseball would cover the Moon if I truly held it on the line. So the principle is to get it as close to the line as possible.

I chose to place it under the real Moon, as my arm would be in the way if I held it above. Likewise, if I held it to the right of the Moon, my hand would be in the way. So the only option left is to hold the baseball to the left of the Moon. Should I do this next time, and we'll see if there's any noticeable difference in the shadow on the baseball, and whether it's any different from a baseball held below the Moon?

This is what the scenario should be; what happens if I elevate the baseball up by 5 to 20 inches is irrelevant, because the whole idea is to align baseball and moon as closely as possible.



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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #374 on: August 31, 2018, 12:47:40 PM »
Here's a neater version;

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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #375 on: September 16, 2018, 05:53:51 PM »
This is great work, Bobby.
I don’t know what close range perspective effect means. The original question was how come the terminator of the moon doesn’t line up with where the sun is. If the moon is being lit by the sun then it should. Your experiment proves that even though it may look like there is no alignment, a straight line between the moon and the sun does line up and the apparent lack of alignment is in fact an optical illusion. This is another good example why the FE premise of trusting one’s senses is flawed. Our senses our limited and they can be tricked.

Also, if this WAS a problem then it would be a problem for the FE moon too which is also lit by the sun in most FE models.
Just to add, I saw this illusion for myself this evening. I could see a crescent moon to my left, fairly high in the sky. The sun was setting to my right so was fairly low in the sky and to the naked eye it didn’t look like a line perpendicular to the terminator would point at the sun. So I got a piece of string and stretched it between them and, sure enough, it lined up perfectly
"This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement" - Tom Bishop