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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #320 on: August 08, 2018, 07:07:28 PM »
Quote
Assuming that this is true, how does this make sense with the Round Earth model where significant perspective effects and changes cannot occur?
It's all explained in that document you took the diagram from. ::)

The authors use a mathematical model that doesn't care about the distance of the sun or of the moon. ICanScienceThat has said that multiple times. Why aren't you listening? We can put in 3000 miles and we get the same result.

How does that qualify as a Round Earth model of the phenomenon?

We have went over this many many times. Trigonometry is a math largely based on ratios. If the ratio is the same then the distances don't matter. In terms of the degree of the angles, SIN, COS, and TAN.

A right triangle with opposite sides length of one inch and an adjacent side of 3 inches will have the same angles as a right triangle with an opposite side of 1 billion miles and an adjacent side of 3 billion miles.

It's not based on ratios. ICanScienceThat said that it doesn't matter if the sun is one foot away from the earth or 93 million miles away from the earth. The 238900 mile distant moon points in the same direction regardless. The math is entirely disconnected from the distance of the celestial bodies.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline MCToon

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #321 on: August 08, 2018, 08:44:27 PM »
The recent several pages of posts deal with the moon on the round earth.  This thread is about the moon on a flat earth.  Maybe those discussions could be more appropriately placed in the round earth full moon thread.

I would love to see a discussion about resolving the problems of the full moon on the flat earth, it's an interesting conundrum.

From the Wiki:
https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon
"The moon is a sphere. It has a diameter of 32 miles and is located approximately 3000 miles above the surface of the earth."

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Phases_of_the_Moon
"When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs."

To have a full moon for everyone on earth on the same day, the moon needs to be directly above the sun, if it's to the side, eve slightly, different parts of the world would see a significantly different fullness of the moon.  I don't see how this works as the sun and moon aren't apparently near each other on days with a full moon, they are generally the farthest away from each other on full moon days.  Is there something I'm missing here?  Could a diagram be generated that makes sense?
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline BillO

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #322 on: August 08, 2018, 08:45:24 PM »
The authors use a mathematical model that doesn't care about the distance of the sun or of the moon. ICanScienceThat has said that multiple times. Why aren't you listening? We can put in 3000 miles and we get the same result.

How does that qualify as a Round Earth model of the phenomenon?
I see your straw man again Tom.

I have also said your "close-distance perspective" argument dose not always apply.  Why aren't you listening?

Don't ask me to tell you how this qualifies as a round earth argument, because  it doen't have to , but it does debunk your (original) argument.
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #323 on: August 08, 2018, 09:45:55 PM »
On the topic of the "ball experiment":

Look at what Mick West is doing at MetaBunk (click to enlarge):



He angles the camera close and right up to the ball to get it to point away from the sun:



These are clearly close-range perspective effects.

The sunlight area on the ball is pointing at the sun. No one can doubt this. The only way to get the ball to point away from the sun is to use close range perspective effects.

Perspective matters less and less at further distances, and in RET the sun and moon does not change distance radically from the observer over the day. It is at the same distance from the observer at all times. Show a to-scale model of the earth-moon-sun that shows this perspective effect, and that it is possible for the perspective to change.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 10:14:07 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #324 on: August 08, 2018, 10:06:21 PM »
From the VSauce video that "explains" the moon tilt illusion:



This is a close range perspective effect. The same effect is not going to occur with the same motions if the screen is far from the camera. The camera would need to move of equal proportions if the laptop screen is far away.

Under the Sun-Earth-Moon system the bodies don't move closer or further from the observer enough, as compared to their distances, as to cause a large perspective effect changes.

This is no real explanation under the Round Earth Theory for this phenomenon. The explanations given are fudged explanations using close-range perspective, and the math given is fudged math where the distances of the Round Earth system do not matter at all for the result.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 10:21:39 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #325 on: August 08, 2018, 10:40:51 PM »
How do you explain the phenomenon on a flat earth?

Offline model 29

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #326 on: August 09, 2018, 02:33:24 AM »
These are clearly close-range perspective effects.
No, they're just perspective effects.

Quote
The only way to get the ball to point away from the sun is to use close range perspective effects.
No, you just need to be viewing from the right angle.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #327 on: August 09, 2018, 03:29:08 AM »
These are clearly close-range perspective effects.
No, they're just perspective effects.

Quote
The only way to get the ball to point away from the sun is to use close range perspective effects.
No, you just need to be viewing from the right angle.

What angle? The perspective of the moon changes:



How does this make sense if the moon and the sun are far away and don't change distance to the observer?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 03:34:52 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #328 on: August 09, 2018, 04:25:33 AM »
A full perspective theory is still in its infancy, but right now I will point you to the "Why do we se the same face of the moon" thread we had recently.

In the Flat Earth model, if the moon is above the altitude of the sun, the sun will see its underside. If the moon is below the altitude of the sun, the sun will see the top of the moon. Your idea of how the relation works in Ancient Greek Perspective Theory would need to be first demonstrated true, before we can say that perspective operates or scales in that manner.
Again with the Ancient Greek stuff. I'm trying to be zetetic here. I'm not assuming any Greek theory. Have you tried to model your Rubik's cube illustration. I have. It doesn't work. You're the self-claimed empiricist. Don't just say it works. Show it.

For the moon to be full, it can't be out of alignment from the sun. Just like you argued for RE. The geometry based on the claimed form and magnitude "assumptions" of FE wiki make it impossible. If that's not true -- if it's possible -- show how. That's the point of this topic.
wait can you explain the tides to me? help

Offline model 29

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #329 on: August 09, 2018, 05:04:18 AM »
What angle?
The same angle (roughly) as in the hallway, just on a bigger scale.  You do understand how 'scale' works correct?


Quote
How does this make sense if the moon and the sun are far away and don't change distance to the observer?
See above remark.  Here's another factor you apparently don't understand-  239k miles is "close range" compared to 93 million miles, and on a 'universe' scale, it is very "close range" perspective.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #330 on: August 09, 2018, 05:30:40 AM »
What angle?
The same angle (roughly) as in the hallway, just on a bigger scale.  You do understand how 'scale' works correct?

The sun and moon aren't going down a hallway, changing distance radically in relation to the observer -- That's the Flat Earth model.

Give us a Round Earth model that explains this.

Quote
See above remark.  Here's another factor you apparently don't understand-  239k miles is "close range" compared to 93 million miles, and on a 'universe' scale, it is very "close range" perspective.

The sun and moon in RET do not change distance in relation to the observer, as to cause perspective effects. The sun and moon are the same distance from the observer at all times.

It appears that all you can give us are Flat Earth models.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline model 29

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #331 on: August 09, 2018, 05:44:14 AM »
Tom, Can you show us why a "significant" (as it compares to the aforementioned distances involved) change in distance while in motion is necessary in order to have a perspective effect?

Had you actually performed any experiments related to this, you would have noticed that you can see this effect whilst remaining still.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #332 on: August 09, 2018, 05:47:27 AM »
On the topic of the "ball experiment":

Look at what Mick West is doing at MetaBunk (click to enlarge):

img

He angles the camera close and right up to the ball to get it to point away from the sun:

img

These are clearly close-range perspective effects.

What is? Please explain what 'effect' you think we're looking at

The sunlight area on the ball is pointing at the sun. No one can doubt this. The only way to get the ball to point away from the sun is to use close range perspective effects.

Why are you still banging on this, when everyone tells you that the purpose of the experiment is NOT to get the ball to point "away from the sun".

If you do this, you should align the two bodies thus;



Aligned vertically. Doesn't matter if the ball is above or below the Moon, but the Moon should just be visible, so that you're as close as possible to the sight line between the two.

Not off to the side. Not significantly above or below, with dead space between.

There cannot be any 'perpsective effect' if you do this.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 06:07:32 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #333 on: August 09, 2018, 06:35:40 AM »
What angle? The perspective of the moon changes:

img

How does this make sense if the moon and the sun are far away and don't change distance to the observer?

The graph shows how aspects of the Moon change depending on location of observer and its position in the sky. It's not a graph of how the Moon changes over the period of (say) one night. 

They do change distance, but only slightly in galactic terms. The observer on Earth could, if at the equator, move to and from the Moon and/or the Sun by up to half the diameter of the Earth.

However, this makes sense because, for the umpteenth time, you, the observer, are at one point of a triangle. The triangle is formed by you, the observer, the Moon and the Sun at the three points.

One face of the Moon is always illuminated along the imaginary triangle side connecting Moon and Sun. As the Moon moves around the Earth, this illuminated portion changes, as the same side of the Moon faces the Earth at all times. This gives us the phases of the Moon.

One side of the triangle is your observation line between you and the Moon.

The last side is the imaginary line between you and the Sun, but this is where it gets interesting, because after sunset, and before sunrise, you cannot take a bearing on this line, because you cannot see the Sun. It's below your local horizon.

However, because the Moon is 240k miles away from the Earth, the Moon is still in sunlight, even though you are not. Your local horizon is irrelevant to the illumination of the Moon.

The crucial thing to take in is that you, the observer, are most likely not aligned with this imaginary triangle. You're at one point of it, but you will most likely not be either horizontally or vertically aligned with the plane of it. This will affect what you see and how you perceive it. If you don't realise this fact, you will be confused by what you see.

This is why the image has the 'altitude' as one axis of the chart - that's actually the observer's LATITUDE on the Earth, isn't it?




I have a desktop globe, I have a little model Moon to go with it, I could make a 3D model to show you, but .... why should I, when folks here ask you to do the most simple of experiments (hold a small sports ball up to the Moon), but you apparently don't make the effort?       
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #334 on: August 09, 2018, 10:31:00 AM »
Tom, Can you show us why a "significant" (as it compares to the aforementioned distances involved) change in distance while in motion is necessary in order to have a perspective effect?

Geometry works in ratios. Look at the animation I posted in my previous post. If the laptop screen is far from the observer those same motions are not going to cause the same effect. The screen would not change at all.

Look at the animation I posted on the last page. If the white surface were much further from the observer, those slight motions would not cause the same effect. The surface would hardly change in perspective at all.

In an example of a pencil pointed horizontally; in order to get a pencil to change perspective and point in a different direction you will need to move around it radically in comparison to your distance to that pencil.

If that pencil is 10,000 feet away from the observer, your movements would have to be of a much larger magnitude. Your same movements will not change the pencil to perspective. Bill agreed with that. Do you disagree?

The moon is only going to shift over you about 2 degrees due to the rotation of the earth/moon in the Round Earth system, and the sun much less than that.

Top-Down View:

« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 09:50:10 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #335 on: August 09, 2018, 10:53:16 AM »
What angle? The perspective of the moon changes:

img

How does this make sense if the moon and the sun are far away and don't change distance to the observer?

The graph shows how aspects of the Moon change depending on location of observer and its position in the sky. It's not a graph of how the Moon changes over the period of (say) one night.
 

The graph is not of a single night, no. The graph shows what happens on multiple nights from a single location, as the moon goes from Full Moon to New Moon It is not from different locations. The bottom range is the number of degrees from North.

Over multiple nights the angle of the phase changes in odd ways. If you are going to account that to perspective, you should explain how this could happen in the Round Earth system where the distances to the objects don't really change.

Quote
However, this makes sense because, for the umpteenth time, you, the observer, are at one point of a triangle. The triangle is formed by you, the observer, the Moon and the Sun at the three points.

One face of the Moon is always illuminated along the imaginary triangle side connecting Moon and Sun. As the Moon moves around the Earth, this illuminated portion changes, as the same side of the Moon faces the Earth at all times. This gives us the phases of the Moon.

How does the phase of the moon point away from the sun?

How does perspective affect the Round Earth system if the distances aren't changing much in relation to the distance between the objects?

Quote
This is why the image has the 'altitude' as one axis of the chart - that's actually the observer's LATITUDE on the Earth, isn't it?

The Altitude on the left hand side is the elevation of the moon above the horizon in degrees. The Azimuth is the number of degrees counter-clockwise from North. The objects on the left and right far ends are 180 degrees from each other.

It is showing what the moon does from a single location, not multiple location.

It is not over one night, but over multiple nights as the moon transitions from Full to New.

Quote
I have a desktop globe, I have a little model Moon to go with it, I could make a 3D model to show you, but .... why should I, when folks here ask you to do the most simple of experiments (hold a small sports ball up to the Moon), but you apparently don't make the effort?     

The sun points at the ball:

SUN --------> O

Correct?

The only way to make the phase point upwards away from the sun like the moon  in the moon tilt illusion is by a close range perspective effect.

Right?

If you are maintaining that this perspective effect is affecting the Earth-Moon system, you will need to explain how this can be when it is only the Flat Earth model where the celestial bodies change their distances to you radically in comparison to their distances above the earth. In the Round Earth system distances hardly change at all.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #336 on: August 09, 2018, 02:05:18 PM »
The moon is only going to shift over you about 2 degrees due to the rotation of the earth/moon in the Round Earth system, and the sun much less than that.

Top-Down View:
img

So you agree that this angle of 1.898 is the angle formed AT the Moon between the imaginary lines drawn from two observers, each on opposite sides of the Earth? i.e. it's the same as my previous diagram;

--------

-----------

but in reverse (you have Moon on the right, I had it on the left)

-------------

-------------

The 1.898 degrees is the angle at the Moon between the POSITIONS of the observers separated by the full diameter of the Earth? Y/N

And this angle will be smaller for observers separated by less latitude? Y/N

So the observers at 45N and 45S will be looking along sightlines with a difference of around one degree? They're essentially looking along the same sightline to the Moon?  Y/N

------------
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 03:42:35 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #337 on: August 09, 2018, 04:57:09 PM »
To have a full moon for everyone on earth on the same day, the moon needs to be directly above the sun, if it's to the side, eve slightly, different parts of the world would see a significantly different fullness of the moon.  I don't see how this works as the sun and moon aren't apparently near each other on days with a full moon, they are generally the farthest away from each other on full moon days.  Is there something I'm missing here?  Could a diagram be generated that makes sense?

This is not correct. In the round earth model there is a degree of difference in which we can have a full moon without it being in the shadow of the earth.

This same degree of difference could exist in a flat earth model too but the altitude of the moon would have to be hundreds of thousands of miles above the sun which contradicts the wiki and what we observe in the real world.

The alternate theory for the flat earth was that the moon is generating its own light.

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Offline BillO

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #338 on: August 09, 2018, 09:53:19 PM »
On the topic of the "ball experiment":

Look at what Mick West is doing at MetaBunk (click to enlarge):



He angles the camera close and right up to the ball to get it to point away from the sun:



These are clearly close-range perspective effects.

The sunlight area on the ball is pointing at the sun. No one can doubt this. The only way to get the ball to point away from the sun is to use close range perspective effects.

Perspective matters less and less at further distances, and in RET the sun and moon does not change distance radically from the observer over the day. It is at the same distance from the observer at all times. Show a to-scale model of the earth-moon-sun that shows this perspective effect, and that it is possible for the perspective to change.


Tom, you need to STFU about the close perspective thing.  You said your self the that paper we were discussing, the instances are irrelevant.  It is the direction.  This thing you just posted proves that the Moon's terminator is at the same angel as the ball's, which is what we were saying in the first place.  The ball, at eye level will point at the sun, away from eye level (like the moon) will not, but they will have the very exact same terminator angle.  How in the name of sanity can't you see this?  This is merely and illusion caused by displacing the ball, (or the moon) from the line of sight.

It is interesting to note you hero has not shown the sun in the 2nd picture where, if it really were 8' away from the camera, would clearly see the terminator on the ball would not point at sun.  Again, the further away the ball is, the more pronounced the effect will, and the closer it is the less pronounced it will be.  Regardless, the terminator on the ball WILL be parallel to that of the moon, even when at eye level, it points at the sun, but the moon terminator 'appears' not to. 

And again, you march your straw man out.  What the heck does what you did with the the phone have to do with the 'ball experiment'?  It's no more relevant than was the card you tried to hit the camera with.
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #339 on: August 09, 2018, 10:25:00 PM »
The 1.898 degrees is the angle at the Moon between the POSITIONS of the observers separated by the full diameter of the Earth? Y/N

Yes

Quote
And this angle will be smaller for observers separated by less latitude? Y/N

The oberver is in the same poisition and the earth is rotating between positions.

Quote
So the observers at 45N and 45S will be looking along sightlines with a difference of around one degree? They're essentially looking along the same sightline to the Moon?  Y/N

The image, as I am using it here, is assuming two observers on the equator. At 45 N and 45 S, the circle that the earth turns on is smaller than the equator, and it will be less... about ~1 degree instead of ~2 degrees.

Updated Image, Top-Down View:


Using the above method on the Diameter of the Moon's Orbit and the Diameter of the Earth, to compute the difference in viewing angle for the Sun is even worse:

Earth Diameter: 7917.5 mi

Diameter of Moon Orbit: 238,900 x 2 = 477,800 mi

Distance from Earth to Sun: 92,900,000 mi

Circumference of Earth to Sun Radius: 2 * pi * 92,900,000 = 583,707,915.037

583,707,915.037 / 360 = 1621410.8751 mi per degree

(Moon Orbit Diameter) 477,800 mi / 1621410.8751 = 0.29468 Degrees Max

(Earth Diameter) 7917.5 / 1621410.8751 = 0.00488 Degrees Max


Where are all of the perspective change for the Moon Tilt Illusion coming from?

It is certainly not from the geometry of the Earth-Moon-Sun system.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 02:57:03 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy