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Offline Tumeni

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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2018, 08:29:52 PM »
I didn't change the time, I just changed the location. If Mooncalc changed the time, then I wouldn't be surprised. It is an incredibly buggy web application.

By all means, list all the other bugs that you have found, IF you have found any.

It expects you to enter the LOCAL time for the place you're interested in. Why would anyone want to look at the Moon in Perth, Australia, for a time in London?


I've shown that it cannot be the moon that is rotating.

Did anyone claim that it was?

The only out is that it is the earth that is shifting.

Or it's the orientation of the observers ....

It doesn't seem that the Mooncalc can reproduce the Moon Tilt Illusion.

Did anyone claim that it could?

This thread is about the crescent moon. Moon Tilt Illusion is in another thread....
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 08:53:30 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline model 29

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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2018, 01:41:51 AM »
Model it. Use the Round Earth Distances to explain it.
What is there to model?  If you tilt your head/camera 45 degrees to the right while looking at something (insert distance of your choosing here) away, and then tilt your head/camera 90 degrees to the left while looking at the same object, it will appear to tilt, or rotate if you prefer, in your field of view.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2018, 06:29:33 AM »
Model it. Use the Round Earth Distances to explain it.
What is there to model?  If you tilt your head/camera 45 degrees to the right while looking at something (insert distance of your choosing here) away, and then tilt your head/camera 90 degrees to the left while looking at the same object, it will appear to tilt, or rotate if you prefer, in your field of view.



I started down the path of setting this out, step by step, for Tom, but we faltered at the first or second hurdle;


If you were to the rear of all the observers, looking past the Earth toward the Moon, their views would vary, because of the difference in their LATITUDE. The observer at the equator will have the crescent toward the bottom of the Moon, and the observers at 45N or 45S will have it inclined to this aspect by 45 degrees each.



I don't see how that makes much sense. That doesn't use Round Earth Geometry. In fact, it seems to be assuming that the moon is very close to the earth.

.. despite further explanations, Tom seems set to abdicate from this thread.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2018, 07:03:53 AM »
I'm Australian and haven't fallen off yet, so what do you say to that


I say you should post a picture of the Moon taken from Australia. Let's compare it with one taken from the Northern Hemisphere.

The thread topic IS the Moon, after all ...
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 07:22:37 AM by Tumeni »
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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2018, 07:57:26 AM »
I like to think of this issue this way. If you were in a gymnasium, an indoor basketball court. Two people, one at each end, look up at a dome light in the middle of the ceiling. The two people on a completely flat plane will see an opposite view of the same object.

Just an idea.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2018, 10:38:58 AM »
Tom, I set up a dummy Moon and point light source, with a crescent showing on my Moon; I photographed it four different ways, with a rough compass point indicator behind it to show orientation.

I didn't move the light source, the moon, or the paper at any point. I didn't rotate the images in software, simply cropping out background and adding the indicator circles for the compass points.

What do you think I changed?








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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2018, 12:20:03 PM »
You just rotated your camera around.

Rotating the camera isn't enough to explain this effect. Consider the situation where the observer is at the equator and looking into the Western Horizon. The moon is approaching from behind the observer and then descending into that  Western horizon. This is a simple scenario, and easily enough to picture. At the equator the moon is passing overhead from behind and setting vertically downwards into the Western horizon.

If you just rotate the camera left and right to simulate the curvature of the earth then as you rotate left or right to Northward or Southward positions, it then seems as if the moon was traveling over the North Pole when you get to 90 degrees N. At 90 degrees S the moon seems to be traveling over the South Pole. At 45 degrees N or S the moon is also traveling too far North.

It is not possible for the moon itself to shift in RET, or for the rotation shifting to be explained or simulated by a rotating camera, but I do think the shifting may be explainable if the illustration in the mooncalc image is adjusting for the presumed tilt of the horizon.

However, I no longer believe that this Mooncalc is an accurate portrayal of the moon. As we saw in the other thread, the Moon Tilt Illusion occurs at all times. Since this calculator never accounts for the Moon Tilt Illusion, it does not seem to be accurate at all.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 12:42:39 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2018, 12:38:15 PM »
Which effect are you talking about? I'm talking about two observers, one at 45N, one at 45S, looking at the Moon at the same time, with each seeing the crescent in different positions, separated by approx 90 degrees. You seem to understand what I'm getting at. You seemed to confirm it with your red arrows on the moon graphics in Reply #23 ... - 90 degrees difference in latitude, 90 degrees difference in the crescent

I'm not talking about the passage of the Moon over time, over the course of a night, or any other period. If both observers look at the same time, we have already seen, from mooncalc, how their views would differ. You agree that if a camera is held in one position, looking at a crescent moon, then moved around its axis, the crescent is shifted by 90 degrees or so. With two observers separated by 90 degrees of latitude, can you see how this shift of the camera applies, assuming both observers keep their cameras upright?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 12:40:13 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #68 on: August 09, 2018, 12:45:38 PM »
Which effect are you talking about? I'm talking about two observers, one at 45N, one at 45S, looking at the Moon at the same time, with each seeing the crescent in different positions, separated by approx 90 degrees. You seem to understand what I'm getting at. You seemed to confirm it with your red arrows on the moon graphics in Reply #23 ... - 90 degrees difference in latitude, 90 degrees difference in the crescent

I'm not talking about the passage of the Moon over time, over the course of a night, or any other period. If both observers look at the same time, we have already seen, from mooncalc, how their views would differ. You agree that if a camera is held in one position, looking at a crescent moon, then moved around its axis, the crescent is shifted by 90 degrees or so. With two observers separated by 90 degrees of latitude, can you see how this shift of the camera applies, assuming both observers keep their cameras upright?

Think about what I described above. You are at the equator looking at the Western Horizon and the moon is passing by from behind overhead, setting vertically into that horizon.

Code: [Select]
    |
    |
    V
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  west

Now you rotate the camera by 90 degrees to simulate what would happen at the North Pole.

Code: [Select]
       |
west   | <---------
       |

Now the moon seems to be passing over the North Pole...

At 45 degrees N or S the moon is also passing overhead too far North or South, if one were to rotate the camera 45 degrees left or right. Rotating the camera is not enough to simulate the curvature of the earth.

I do think that the Mooncalc is trying to simulate the tilt of the earth, however. But I no longer think it is accurate due to ignoring the Moon Tilt Illusion which takes place at all times; so this point of what the calculator shows is moot with me. I am less interested in talking about something that does not take place. I will revert to the Moon Tilt Illusion thread.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 12:59:11 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #69 on: August 09, 2018, 12:57:34 PM »
Think about what I described above. You are at the equator looking at the Western Horizon and the moon is passing by from behind overhead.

No, that's not the situation that is being discussed. We're not talking about any movement in the Moon, only observations from different places AT THE SAME TIME. The Moon is at a static point in the sky at this time. Where it has been. or where it is going don't enter into it.


Now you rotate the camera by 90 degrees to simulate what would happen at the North Pole.

Again, not the situation being discussed. We were talking about two or three observers, spanning 45S, equator, and 45N

Now the moon seems to be passing over the North Pole...

We're not concerned with its path, only how its crescent appears to different observers at the same time.

Rotating the camera is not enough to simulate the curvature of the earth.

But you agree that if you have two cameras which are inclined separately to the Moon with a difference of 90 degrees, that the two pictures will have the Moon's crescent differing by 90 degrees?

I do think that the Mooncalc is trying to simulate the tilt of the earth, however. But I no longer think it is accurate due to ignoring the Moon Tilt Illusion which takes place at all times; so this point of what the calculator shows is moot with me.

Like I said earlier, pick a selection of dates and times in advance for your chosen location, print off what mooncalc predicts, and look outside when those dates and times come along, to see if it matches the prediction. Sooner or later, you'll find prediction matches experience.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #70 on: August 09, 2018, 01:06:31 PM »
I'm in the region of 55N, and here's one of the ball/moon shots that I took. The vertical of the picture is as close as I could get to a true vertical with a hand-held shot. The Moon was above the baseball in my line of sight, and I was standing upright.

Tom, will you accept the above as a starting point, and that I was genuinely looking at the Moon, with my baseball held at arm's length, in the daytime, and in the sunlight?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #71 on: August 09, 2018, 01:06:57 PM »
Again, not the situation being discussed. We were talking about two or three observers, spanning 45S, equator, and 45N

If you rotated the camera 45 degrees in the scenario I described above, the moon would seem to be passing over the 45 degree latitude. The Moon is only inclined in its orbit from the equator by a maximum deviation of 5 degrees. Camera rotation does not work to explain 45N or 45S either. The examples at the North and South Pole where the moon seems to be passing over the North or South Poles solidifies this point, and illustrates that rotating the camera is not an illustration of this.

I do think it is trying to simulate earth horizon tilt, but I do not not have faith that the Mooncalc can simulate the moon at all, at this time. It is not possible for the  both the Moon Tilt Illusion that occurs at all times and the Mooncalc illustrations to both be true. Since we have pictures of the Moon Tilt Illusion, and none of the Mooncalc, I will side with that one.

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Tom, will you accept the above as a starting point, and that I was genuinely looking at the Moon, with my baseball held at arm's length, in the daytime, and in the sunlight?

Sure. I don't have any reason to doubt you. If you want to talk about the Moon Tilt Illusion, lets take it to the Moon Tilt Illusion thread.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 01:12:56 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2018, 01:55:29 PM »
Quote
Tom, will you accept the above as a starting point, and that I was genuinely looking at the Moon, with my baseball held at arm's length, in the daytime, and in the sunlight?

Sure. I don't have any reason to doubt you. If you want to talk about the Moon Tilt Illusion, lets take it to the Moon Tilt Illusion thread.

No, nothing to do with the illusion. If we take it for purposes of discussion that the Earth is a globe, and you or I were suspended out in space, behind my viewing position, and by some small chance you could get the whole globe in view, along with a view of little old me viewing the Moon, do you agree it would look something like this? (I seem to have lost some weight in the process, and gained a few hundred miles in height, but ...)

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: The Crescent Moon
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2018, 10:57:45 AM »
I made up an artificial Moon which will better illustrate shadows than the baseball previously used;



Different day, different month, same result. Artificial Moon held up in sunlight on Earth matches the Moon in the sky. No "perspective effects" involved
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