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Flat Earth Community / Re: The Final Experiment

« Last post by Pete Svarrior on May 17, 2024, 09:52:58 PM »

Oh, and for the sake of clarity: it's also very telling that the only people the YouTube channel refers to as potential FE'ers to be involved are known grifters with a financial incentive. Let's be blunt: this is a scam on both sides, and we should all be better than giving them any time out of our days.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: The Final Experiment

« Last post by Pete Svarrior on May 17, 2024, 09:48:34 PM »

I saw an interview the bloke behind this did with FTFE.

Ah, truly a duo of titans then. A guy whose entire livelihood relies on insisting that the Earth is round and calling his detractors idiots validated this other guy. Yes, quite, indubitably.

You watch too much YouTube. Seriously.

The aim is to send one globe earther and one flat earther to Antarctica to observe the 24 hour sun - which would be an issue for the monopole model.

It wouldn't, though. It's only an issue for the YouTubers' understanding of FE. It's an extremely low bar to set, and one that can be met without wasting a ton of donation money. Like, yeah, those guys are gonna see the Sun for an entire day, and it's gonna accomplish nothing.

Now, what would be interesting is to see how much money they embezzle out of the scheme 👀

Any thoughts on this? Would any of you have liked to be invited or would be interested in going?

I wouldn't go (entirely pointless, we already know the outcome), but I would love to offer independent scrutiny of their finances. I am openly sceptical, perhaps verging on hostile, so if they can open their books to me and get an admission that I saw no irregularities, that would surely boost their credibility. Well, within the limitations of how much credibility a faux-experiment with a predetermined outcome can have.

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Flat Earth Investigations / Re: What is the true map of the earth?

« Last post by Gonzo on May 17, 2024, 07:49:45 PM »

As anyone who has any serious knowledge of aviation knows (air traffic controller for 25yrs here), there's a lot of inaccurate nonsense and claims.

Airspeed indicators are accurate and work fine. As do the varied GNSS and SBAS systems. The various jetstreams are well known, and although always active, strength and location does vary, although can usually be forecast. 'Southern winds' are only 'anomalous' in the sense they are usually very strong. We know why.

The document Tom keeps linking to as evidence of weird flight routes is a red herring, and again written by someone with a demonstrable lock of understanding of how global commercial aviation works.

Again, having been involved in the operational side of aviation for 25yrs, I would say the majority of 'travel' writers have no idea about operational matters, just like the majority of their readers. Airlines cancel flights for all sorts of reasons. For example, yesterday British Airways had cancelled 12 departures from London Heathrow by mid afternoon, out of 347 planned.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: The Final Experiment

« Last post by AATW on May 17, 2024, 03:24:00 PM »

Dunno about this, AATW.  Yes, the ultimate experiment in theory, but the website makes Jeran look like George Lucas by comparison; no pages at all except a bunch of You-Tube links.  If this thing gets as far as the equator I'll eat my tinfoil hat.

I saw an interview the bloke behind this did with FTFE. He sounded pretty serious. Agree the website isn't great though. One to keep an eye on.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: The Final Experiment

« Last post by DuncanDoenitz on May 17, 2024, 03:22:32 PM »

Dunno about this, AATW.  Yes, the ultimate experiment in theory, but the website makes Jeran look like George Lucas by comparison; no pages at all except a bunch of You-Tube links.  If this thing gets as far as the equator I'll eat my tinfoil hat. 

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Flat Earth Community / The Final Experiment

« Last post by AATW on May 17, 2024, 11:43:50 AM »

I think this is the right place for this.
Are you aware of The Final Experiment?

https://www.the-final-experiment.com/

The aim is to send one globe earther and one flat earther to Antarctica to observe the 24 hour sun - which would be an issue for the monopole model. Or, if it doesn't occur would be an issue for the globe.

They have invited high profile people from both sides to participate - I didn't actually see anyone from here on the list, I think they're mostly going for YouTubers.
They say they're going to provide the funding for one person from each side, but others can join at their own expense - it was something like $30,000, so not cheap.

Any thoughts on this? Would any of you have liked to be invited or would be interested in going? Do you think this is a good experiment? If you observed the 24 hour sun in Antarctica would that change your mind about FE or would it just steer you towards a different FE model like the bi-polar one?

77

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: What is the true map of the earth?

« Last post by RonJ on May 15, 2024, 10:46:19 PM »

So, you have one sole instance to offer as a counter and it happens to be in a place you would have been able to visually detect a referenced landmark perhaps matching the flight map.

How in the world would this translate to a transoceanic flight having little if any similarity to the flight you cite?

If you need many more descriptions of long-haul airline flight experiences, I have plenty for you.


While I was working, I took lots of long-haul transoceanic flights.  Some were up to 15 hours long.  On those flights I sat in business class or first-class seats.  There was always a map with the aircraft’s position and ground speed displayed on the screen in front of me.  Sometimes there was even a forward-facing camera allowing me to have the same outside view as the aircraft’s captain on my display.  If I wanted to double check I could pull out my GPS receiver and have a 2^nd source of speed & position data. This worked OK especially when I was in a window seat.  I am an experienced commercial pilot/ship’s officer/ and navigator myself and was never surprised when I could confirm the aircraft’s position with landmarks below.  We would always start flying a great circle route to save fuel and sometime would go way up into the Artic on flights from the USA to Asia.  Sometimes that route would be altered to avoid unfavorable weather conditions. You can be sure that high altitude jet streams were taken into account when the pre-flight planning was done. There were times when we did divert for a refueling stop before reaching our destination but that didn’t happen very often.  When it did happen, there was always bad weather along the way and the pilot would make some diversions to avoid thunderstorms, typhoons, or hurricanes.  We did once land in Beijing, China to refuel on the way to Hong Kong but there were frequent storms along the way, plenty of adverse head winds and the weather was foggy in Hong Kong. It made sense to be safe and have plenty of reserve fuel in case a diversion or a holding pattern was necessary near the end of the flight due to the unpredictable visibility at our final stop. 
 
The bottom line is that I have the experience of many hundreds of trans-oceanic voyages by air and sea during my working years.   You always knew your position and speed over the ground very accurately.  If someone tells you the contrary, they might very well not be able to determine their position correctly, but experienced navigators certainly can, very accurately, determine both their position and speed over the ground.  If they can't then there is a serious problem with their equipment.  I don't believe that I ever had that happen to me in over 40 years of traveling.  I always had a backup or two to fall back on if a single piece of equipment failed.  Sure, in my early years, I had some navigational difficulties, but that was due to inexperience.  I got better & better at using the navigational equipment and reading navigational charts as my training & experience progressed. 

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Flat Earth Investigations / Re: What is the true map of the earth?

« Last post by DuncanDoenitz on May 15, 2024, 08:21:43 PM »

A80; I think you'll find 35 on-schedule return flights is 70 instances.  Why, what have you got? 

(And, as you apparently failed to notice, Tom just (once again) reiterated previous apocrypha without actually referencing any single jetsteam-related cancellation). 

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Flat Earth Investigations / Re: What is the true map of the earth?

« Last post by Action80 on May 15, 2024, 06:21:09 PM »

They absolutely don't have a hard time doing that. Go on any long haul flight and you can put the flight map on the screen showing exactly where you are, how fast you're going and when you'll arrive. You can cross reference that against observations to determine whether the data it's showing is accurate. I was flying back from Cairo recently, I did this for a bit. The map said we were flying over some mountains. I looked out the window and there they were. The idea that this is all possible without planes knowing where they are at all times and therefore how fast they're going is ludicrous.

So, you have one sole instance to offer as a counter and it happens to be in a place you would have been able to visually detect a referenced landmark perhaps matching the flight map.

How in the world would this translate to a transoceanic flight having little if any similarity to the flight you cite?[/quote]

Tom,

Cancelled/rescheduled flights.  I would refer you again to the LATAM Santiago/Melbourne service as an example.  Three months of scheduled flights, 3 times per week, only one flight cancelled.  Of the remainder, every flight left Santiago on the day planned, most within an hour of the scheduled departure time.  Not replanned.  Not rescheduled.  Not removed. 

One instance as a counter to the multitudes described by Tom? I think it is hilarious the airlines chose to redefine the terminology. Got to maintain the veil.

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Flat Earth Investigations / Re: What is the true map of the earth?

« Last post by AATW on May 15, 2024, 02:19:36 PM »

All of this is true of this effect though, and you have even admitted that the effect exists before in past conversations. See this past admission from 2022 from you

What "effect"? That things get smaller as they move away from you until you can't see them?
I'm not sure that's something that needs to be "admitted". Obviously that's true, it's just nothing to do with the sinking ship effect.
In the conversation around the post you quoted I demonstrated that by showing how the "hull" of a ship I drew disappeared from across the room even when it was at the top. Angular side can, of course, make objects not visible. And with optical zoom they can be restored. No-one disputes that. But when an object is properly occluded by the horizon you can zoom in and you only see the top of the object, the rest is hidden by something, it's not just too small to see.
Rowbotham claimed that things disappear bottom first on a flat plane - like a path. They don't.

Which is exactly what Rowbotham is describing in Earth Not a Globe. When bodies are smaller than 1/60th of a degree they become lost to optical resolution, and are beyond perception. So, you were wrong. This effect does exist and it is reversible with optical zoom.

I wasn't wrong, I never denied that things can be too small to see. But that's true whether the thing is at the bottom of an object or the top. Your experiment is the same as the one I posted the results of in the thread you quoted. The hull disappears if it's at the top of the boat. Nothing to do with the sinking ship. Your claim that "Rowbotham's original society solved the sinking ship" is simply untrue.

The railroad references are here: https://wiki.tfes.org/Railroads

That's just a box set of people not understanding that "level" is defined with respect to your up/down direction. A spirit level shows when something is level. If you were at a different location on earth then the spirit level would be in a different orientation but still show level as horizontal to the local up/down direction. There's also a sprinkling of not understanding that elevation above sea level is also with respect to your orientation. I'm not sure if the curve of the earth is really a factor in the construction of railway as rails are laid in such small sections. The curve of the earth is absolutely a factor in larger scale engineering projects. It's explicitly mentioned on the LIGO web page:
https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/facts

Yes, Lady Bount also verified Rowbotham's water convexity experiments with the then-new technology of long distance photography. Near the surface of the water, for at least the span of six miles, the light created a path which contradicted Round Earth Theory.

Amazing. Can we see the proof then? Then we can put all this globe earth nonsense to bed. Because I found one picture and it was some grainy mess in which I couldn't really make out anything. Please tell me there's something better? Or the results of the Bishop experiment would do. If you can see the beach all the way down to the shoreline from 23 miles away and a viewer height of 20 inches then I'm sold. Could you present the evidence you gathered?

A hypothesis typically does not have supporting evidence. However, the pages show that there is supporting evidence for celestial-scale, and possibly celestial-specific, bending of light

No-one disputes that light bends. There's refraction of course, light bends in relativistic ways. But EA states that light bends "upwards".
But in the moon tilt illusion you show the light bending downwards.
The test of a good theory is its ability to make predictions which can then be verified experimentally. How can you make specific predictions using EA when you have no working FE map and the equation governing EA is one Parsifal made up, shows no derivation and contains an unknown constant

People sitting in a plane have a difficult time telling how much the winds and the jet stream are adding to the journey.

OK, but you could plot your expected flight path on a FE map and check that against observations. Basic stuff like are you flying over land or sea. If land are there any identifiable landmarks.

Planes have a hard time determining their true speeds because they are propelling themselves in pockets of fluids which itself is traveling through larger scales of fluids.

They absolutely don't have a hard time doing that. Go on any long haul flight and you can put the flight map on the screen showing exactly where you are, how fast you're going and when you'll arrive. You can cross reference that against observations to determine whether the data it's showing is accurate. I was flying back from Cairo recently, I did this for a bit. The map said we were flying over some mountains. I looked out the window and there they were. The idea that this is all possible without planes knowing where they are at all times and therefore how fast they're going is ludicrous.